Dear George,

One can also say belief is accepting that for which there is no evidence. We cannot prove that the sun will rise tomorrow, but one can assume that it will since it has risen on all the days we know of. That can establish a reasonable presumption that it will rise tomorrow as there is evidence for one's presumption. However, religious belief requires more. There is not only no proof of the virgin birth and the other doctrines of the church, but there is also no evidence on which to presume its truth. non modo sed etiam.

We cannot know what Abraham expected, but the story implies that he was willing to carry out what he thought was the wishes of the Lord. We cannot reasonably say that the story has a point other than the point its readers give to it. When I was a little boy I was told that the story marked the transition from human to animal sacrifice. We cannot know what point the creators of the story had in mind when they wrote it. My interpretation that it is to inculcate blind, unquestioning obedience as a virtue is largely based on the fact that it appears in a book that lauds such obedience.

I prefer the story of Prometheus who defied the Gods. I probably told you this story before, but I think it's a good one that others might not have heard.

In the Philadelphia Museum of Art is a large painting of Prometheus bound with an eagle devouring his liver. I took my oldest son to the museum, and we saw the painting as well as many other things. When we got home my wife asked, "William, what did you see?" He answered, "We saw a bird eating liver."

davids quote..<<..By my morality the biblical story remains profoundly evil...>>

i again must agree
but*..please recall..jesus saying..the beast..KNOWS its masters voice

i read the bible as a collection..of stories
written..DEFINITIVLY*..by the hands of men[not god]

..<<I cannot accept the God portrayed in the Bible..as anything but an evil fantasy.>>>

agreed
but the words/thoughts/words of great thinkers
and not so great..conceiving/formulating/believing..
the inconceivable..*..the life force sustaining us all..

great progressions as we developed to the 10 commands..
then..the witness of those who saw the carnate../incarnate? christ..

[definitively born of woman..!]

thus..the word made flesh..doing as we willin timedo greater
a living example of higher human..being..simply doing
as they then expected god/with_us.[Emmanuel]..to do..

[as was prophesised]..[ie serving other
as THE way to good/god]..like the father..serves all life our living

JUST AS THE BEAST..knows*[its masters voice
we thus learned..ALL*..GOOD comes of god[grace/mercy]

just as we now know..
ALL NOT GOOD..is NOT of god

thanks be to the greats..who wondered upon these things
these same/concepts questions/events..before us

this detail..unites their minds
with ours..its like communing with the dead..[only SPIRITUALLY they arnt dead]

the vile inthe bi-ble..comes from men
the good*..comes inspired from him all loving

those who.*know love/good..
even in..*the word equal..our as lived inour lives
KNOW our masters VOICE..!*

this stillinner voice..will comfort..
will unite..will be mercy-full

is detectable..even if just words
recorded/reworded/translated..wurds
*changed edited/.deleted..censord/hidden..words

amoung the many great WORDS..of mankind
sacred words..of those who's trial's/comforts morals..leanings of their experiences..of..that which came before us*

time has passed..thus allowing reasonable doubt..
in lue of the certainty..[absolute]..if jesus came today..

where the freewill.?..then
ie now..which.god holds sacrosanct..

wanting us..
no..*rusting us to chose love../grace/mercy
of other..in lue of..dominion over 'the other'

for david..[from gone west introduction]
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

see the next 2de quote
but to retain its context..begins here

<<..Those who have come up..from the Realm of Half-Belief,
like J. B. P.,..do not drift..into the narrow sects of the lowest division.

They arrive freed..of preconceived prejudices,
and devote considerable attention..to the study of the various faiths they find there,*..and endeavor to draw from each*.. the vital truths which are enshrined in them.>>

ok..here is..the bit i thought you might like
in response to your..<<..I prefer the story of Prometheus who defied the Gods.>>

so saying..onto the quote,,<<..Some of the most interesting revelations J. B. P. made..were that the Gods exist, or, at
any rate,..*the forms of the Gods,

and they condescend to answer the prayers of their worshippers.

In particular,..he describes a service
in a great Egyptian temple at which 0siris appeared.

Similarly, he has visited a Hindu temple, where Kartikeya, the God of
War, presided.

He also gave a most striking account of a library in the Realm of Belief..>>..

anyhow

the structure of the afterlife map
is on page 19..of the book

or rather page 31 ..*of the pdf
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

on the next page 20
is the map of realms..spheres of our personal influence
that is uniquely..tied to that we love..to keep on doing the most..[after death][lol]

anyhow

use up word count

let us turn to consider the
matter given in these pages.
The original plan of the work as arranged by H. J. L. was as follows: —
The Astral plane —
(a) As seen by a bad man, viz. The Officer.
(b) As seen by an average man of the world, viz. W. A.
The Spirit plane, divided into —
(1) Hell, or the Realm of Unbelief, related by The Officer.
(2) The Realm of Half-Belief, related by H. J. L.
(3) The Realm of Belief lacking in Works, related by J. B.P.
(4) The Realm of Belief shown forth in Works, related by The Monk.

There is some evidence that the virgin birth is merely due to a faulty translation informed by a desire to make Christianity compatible with existing beliefs.

KJV: Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

In the original Hebrew an ‘almah’ shall conceive. An almah is a young woman with no connotation of virginity. The first translation of Isaiah was into Greek and ‘almah’ was translated as the Greek ‘parthenos’ which means virgin.

Perhaps a clue to the reason for that translation can be found in the pagan narratives of the time.

Mithra was born in a cave, on the 25th December of a Virgin. He traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men. His great festivals were the winter solstice and the Spring equinox (Christmas and Easter). He had twelve companions or disciples (the twelve months). He was buried in a tomb, from which however he rose again; and his resurrection was celebrated yearly with great rejoicings. He was called Savior and Mediator, and sometimes figured as a Lamb; and sacramental feasts in remembrance of him were held by his followers.

Adonis or Tammuz, the Syrian god of vegetation, was a very beautiful youth, born of a Virgin (Nature).

Attis was born of a Virgin--Nana--who conceived by putting a ripe almond or pomegranate in her bosom.

Krishna, the Indian god, was also was born of a Virgin (Devaki) and in a cave, and his birth announced by a Star. To destroy him a massacre of infants was ordered. Everywhere he performed miracles, raising the dead, healing lepers, and the deaf and the blind, and championing the poor and oppressed. He descended into hell; and rose again from the dead, ascending into heaven in the sight of many people. He will return at the last day to be the judge of the quick and the dead.

Apparently the Jesus narrative has been conflated with the narratives of the pagan religions extant at the time of the invention of Christianity.

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Dear David,

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“ Banjo has muddied the waters by bringing in bigotry.”

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Sorry about that. I thought I clarified them, David. Let me have another go at it.

I feel sure you can see the same duality in nature that I see and that a whole lot of Chinamen can see – what they call the yin and the yang: male and female, day and night, light and dark, left and right, back and front, top and bottom, hot and cold, fire and water, life and death, and so on.

That was what I had in mind when I wrote to George on the bottom of page 21 that: “just as light produces shadow, the god concept inevitably comes with its corollary as two sides of the same coin. Impossible to have one without the other.”

I saw faith from the same perspective. The yang is pure faith. The yin is pure bigotry. Same coin. Two sides.

But, of course, life is a little more complex than that. Yin and yang coexist in perfect harmony in nature. It’s not just all one or all the other. Nor are they usually equal. In some cases it’s yin, and in others it’s yang which dominates.
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“I don’t know what pure bigotry is as opposed to impure bigotry.”
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I don’t either, David. I was simply alluding to the opposite side of the coin where faith is located, the side where there is just bigotry and nothing else.

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(continued)

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(continued)

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The Chinese apply the principle of natural duality to many aspects of their daily lives, including among other things: classical Chinese science, traditional Chinese medicine, martial arts and qigong (that gentle Chinese exercise now practiced by more and more people world-wide).

The duality of certain natural substances also finds recognition in Western medicine where, depending on the dose, they have the power either to cure or to kill. Medicines are virtuous. Poisons are vicious. Just two properties of the same basic element.

In a similar vein I observed that faith is like sand in an oyster: a little produces a pearl, too much kills the animal.

My final observation was that all human relations are based on faith. Without faith there can be no meaningful communication, understanding, exchange or agreement. No contractual engagement and can be entered into and nothing positive can be undertaken.

Faith is a virtue which creates a favourable environment for fruitful human relations. Lack of faith, mistrust, is a vice which renders fruitful human relations impossible.

As demonstrated by the periodic table, the number of natural elements is limited. The number of thought patterns and sentiments are too. Future research on artificial intelligence will probably codify this as well, one day.

Each immaterial element will contain its own duality just like the material elements with the dual properties of medicine and poison: faith and bigotry, thrift and avarice, etc.

I trust you now find the water to your liking, David, but, don't worry, I dont' expect you to bathe in it.

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