Dear Banjo,

I appreciate your erudition, but faith still promotes atrocity. It may also promote other things, but I don't think of it as a virtue.

As far as Godless faith goes the Buddhists have a deep faith. My daughter is one, but they do not have a God.

God is a construction upon which Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha'is focus. However, Buddhists and Hindus focus their faiths in other ways.

The warrior woman is still a figure to be reckoned with in some societies. If one goes to a Chinese opera attended by Chinese reared in the classical tradition you will hear an intake of breath from the assembled Chinese geezers when the warrior woman takes the stage.

She appears in the Bible also. Deborah led a successful counterattack against the forces of Jabin king of Canaan and his military commander Sisera, the narrative is recounted in chapter 4 of Judges. She used excellent strategy by choosing the high ground on Mount Tabor to base her troops. Forces with chariots may prevail on a plain but don't do so well against missiles coming at them from the heights.

From too much love of living,
From hope and fear set free,
We thank with brief thanksgiving
Whatever gods may be
That no life lives for ever ;
That dead men rise up never ;
That even the weariest river
Winds somewhere safe to sea.

Welcoming death from Swinburne's Garden of Proserpine

One of the penalties of living as long as I have is that so many people I know are no more. Banjo and George, long life to you and your friends.

Dear david f,

“unquestioning belief in that for which there is no proof.’ That is also a characteristic of bigotry. ’

You are right, this is a definition of faith as bigotry. There are also definitions of faith as simply belief in God or something supernatural, since many non-English languages cannot distinguish between “faith” and “belief” when speaking about religion. Another thing is faith as trust, and for trust as such there is a separate word in, I suppose, all languages. In my mind, all these definitions are too one-sided; faith as a state of mind is more complex than that.

>>Trust in their Lord was exhibited by Abraham when he was willing to murder his son,<<

Like trust in the cord attached to his feet was exhibited by the bungee jumper when he was willing to commit suicide by jumping?

Dear Banjo,

>>From what you say, George, I guess they were simply indulging in the perconal spiritual occupations you mentioned.<<

No, I was referring to the strange concept of “Godless faith” (as distinct from Godless spirituality which is genuine, see e.g. the Buddhists or secular spirituality). As for those Sumerians who believed in goddess Inanna etc, if you want to refer to their state of mind as “faith” (I am not sure whether anthropologists study such a concept) then their faith certainly was not godless.

They believed in something beyond the natural (they did not have science to measure what nature and what supernatural - real or imagined - was) the same as some of us believe today; only they had a rather naive understanding of it. Like they knew of thunderstorms as we do, only had an apparently naive explanation of its causes.

But it is the same thunderstorms and the same supernatural, divine, that both they and us refer to. The difference is, of course, that nobody doubts the “reality” of thunderstorms unlike that of the divine that some of us believe is the cause and purpose of all existence, irrespective of how we model it to make it comprehensible for our culture- and evolution-dependent minds.

george/quote..<<..nobody doubts..the “reality”*..of thunderstorms..>>
because..we know*..its qualities/form/function.

<<<..unlike that..of the divine..[EDIT]..irrespective..of how we model it*..to make it..comprehensible*>>

THAT'S..the key,..
all of our certainties..are believable facts
which then..underpin' our faitsh..[regardless of what..the faith...WE*..may-be sustaining]

..my certainties..
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=15341&page=0

and..as many are....said to be..un_intelligible..
i prefer..to put up links..to allow the basis..of my certainties..to be judged..for themselves.

so saying..i extract..a quote..
i last posted at..the sells special/god..language topic..*noting an almost immediate reply..finally..from peter

<<i have been..following..previous posts,..at..*..Is God back?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2909&page=0#66836

and have noted..that many links..
posted..there..*have been REMOVED/deleted/404*

i said<<...in case you want to know more
i suspect it goes something like as..is written in these stories
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/gonewest.html
http://www.angelfire.com/ne/newviews/wsltoc.html
>>..

anyhow the first link..
NOW..is here..[gone west]
[the best exposure..of after life]..[and of our ongoing redemption]

http://new-birth.net/booklet/Gone_West.pdf

the others like ..*"the officer"
http://new-birth.net/booklet/Subaltern_Spirit_Land.pdf

''30 years among the dead ''
http://new-birth.net/booklet/30_years_among_the_dead.PDF

anyhow the last one is a proper science publication
using science/method..which confirms the reality..of spirit..[not god]

the first one..[gone west],
explains how the after life realm..is structured..
it includes a drawing/map..of the after life realms..these show the divisions..[or many 'rooms/reams/planes]..by which order is maintained from disorder

specifically of importance..
is the multiplicity..of 'gods'..as revealed via the links..[in hell]

the middle link..[the adjutant..describes the death..to resection/..then his eventual redemption]..of the officer..

there are many books..like these
suppressed in time..thus peters reply/finally..to stop posting..them

its info..[i hold as truth[..the church dont want known
but strangely..ditto atheist's dont want known neither..

cause its same/same..

peter actually admitted..his education..created an atheist..
but sadly the catalyst..[the only one worthy..of his time/.effort..he would regard as a peer]..didnt take the bait..

but such is freewill

and there wee get back to faith*
especially in the next life..IF YOU BELIEVE it..!
its you MAKE it real for you..!

thus beware..of what*..you trust/have faith in..[make real/..REAL-ize]
cause hell ..s full of these..so called phantasm/s
or false gods..we then project..ie make real..
[manifest][project]..before us..

with only us..the ones being self deceived..
making them real..only to ourselves..!

what we CHOSE to..give reality to..[via absolute belief/faith]
is the very thing..that we must overcome..if not here now..

then
there

then

Dear George,

Any belief is in something for which there is no proof. That is essential to belief and is not bigotry. If there is proof of the existence of an entity or a percept it is no longer belief. Banjo has muddied the waters by bringing in bigotry. However, I would not equate faith with bigotry although I feel both are to a degree malignant.

All Christian doctrines - the virgin birth, original sin, God, the triune nature of God, the substitutionary atonement etc. are matters of faith. There is no proof for any of it. Christianity is of course not unique in that. Most of the Bible with its fairy tales appeared before the invention of Christianity. Non-theistic religions and Islam have their share of wonder tales also.

The trust in the Lord exhibited by Abraham in the Bible was definitely not like the trust of the bungee jumper. The bungee jumper expects to have the cord hold and will have the frisson of danger knowing that it might not. On the other hand apparently Abraham fully expected to murder his son. By my morality the biblical story remains profoundly evil. I cannot accept the God portrayed in the Bible as anything but an evil fantasy.

david/quote..<<..Any belief is in something for which there is no proof.>>

like i believe..
the sun..*will rise..again..in the east?[tomorrow..at a spercific time location]..or ibelieve it will rain..sometime?

i have faith..i will..finish writing this line.
i have the firm belief..i am not alone..[yet sit here by myself

im..trying to restore the context..of the next quote

ANY belief..in some*thing..[unprovable?..<<That is essential to belief..is not bigotry.>?

this must relate to one of georges replies?

my feelingis..any unprovable*..point
may bear a biggited bias..yet not be true faith

<<If there is proof
of the existence..of an entity..or a percept..it is no longer belief>>

in my opinion
yes..this..i too believe

but..
what is belief/faith..without works..*

or the use of faith/belief..into abuse
that brings us down..or frightens us into denial/fear/anger
theism..or indeed atheism..or/pain..death..etc

or ..[insert any hurtful/injurious negatives]
[that hurt self..or other..]

Dear david f,

Thank for the food for thought. The following is written off the cuff":

>> Any belief is in something for which there is no proof. <<

True, provided this “something” is provable - i.e. a proof is imaginable, would make sense - by its very nature. In mathematics theorems are provable axioms are not; you expect a theorem to be proved, not the axioms. Neither are basic worldview presuppositions, even the very existence of physical reality is not provable (see Hawking-Mlodinow quoted in my www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=14464) but everybody believes it. On the other hand, belief that ALP will win the next elections, or that there is untelegent life on some planet in our galaxy are both provable.

Had you used “evidence” instead of “proof” I would have used “falsifiable” instead of “provable”. For instance, the belief in virgin birth would be of that provable/falsifiable kind if we had Jesus’ and Mary’s DNAs. On the other hand, belief in the divine that by its very definition is not detectable through our scientific methods of investigation is not, and cannot be, of the provable kind, unless one accepts naive ideas of God that identify the Divine with our, usually personified, models of it offered by various religions.

>>On the other hand apparently Abraham fully expected to murder his son.<<

I do not know what Abraham expected, how could anybody? I only know that there is an interpretation of the story that you prefer, and one that I prefer (expressed through reference to the bungee jumper), an interpretation that - I suppose, though am not sure - is also the interpretation of most Christians and probably also religious Jews. If you watched the bungee jumper and for some reason did not see the cord, you would naturally assume that he was about to commit suicide. The same about reading the Abraham/Isaac story if you do not see what I (and others) call the point of the story.