2. A more important question is: Has anything changed since she wrote the article? No! If anything, the situation is worse. The few brave Muslims in Islamic countries that have spoken out against the evil that is done to women, religious minorities, jews, gays in Muslim dominated countries are dead, in prison, in exile or living in fear. There are a few Muslims in Non-Muslim countries that raise these issues, but in a way that can only be described as half-hearted and timid (wink).

There you have it, FH. As I said almost three months ago, Islam is oppressive and intolerant where it dominates. Even Muslims themselves suffer under Islam. Blame whoever you will, but the problem is not the Jews, Bush, the Gringos, Capitalism, the Crusaders, or even Donald Duck. The problem is that Islam is a religion of hate, anger and denial. It is not that you don't know these things, or even that you don't think they are true. You just don't want to think of them. Can you indicate a Muslim site that explains the 'problematic' verses in the Koran and hadiths that I have spoken of? (such as torture, murder (Asma) and sex with slaves).

You say “we do criticize what we do wrong”. Well, that is nice but your criticism is ineffective, because you are only treating the symptoms, not the disease. Criticism is worthless without change. Can Islam change? Can it treat people decently? It can’t, because it would require honesty and then Islam would not be Islam.

Yes, I “refuse to see Islam as Muslims see it.” Why should I? Should I apply that phrase to Nazis or the KKK also? About translations, one day I should write a page about how Muslims translate, untranslate, destranslate, quote and misquote the Koran, or how they conveniently ‘forget’ about some verses. It is almost amusing. I don’t need Christian missionaries to help me put down Islam, I get all the help I need directly from the Mohammud, the Koran and Muslims themselves. With help like that, I can’t go wrong. What is CTF?

Kactuz

F.H. Philo is correct... you see 'intellectual difference' as 'hate'
and indeed you are projecting it on us. May I say that it is from my own Church tradition, that a lady has been serving medically among Muslim Bedoins in Jordan for over 40 yrs with the sympathetic attention of the Queen, and in spite of the murder of her colleague by fanatical Muslims. She does not accept Islam, she would argue just as passionately as myself, yet she has given her life for Muslims.

I'm getting the impression that you are unable to handle truth yourself and the only way you can deal with it is to resort to the 'you hate us' ploy.

My concern is that truth must be spoken in love, and love sometimes hurts, but is in the end, not harmful.

You constant resort to this 'you hate us' tactic tells us more about Islam than anything and it may be telling us a bit about you. Because it is a 'personal attack'.

It is a mistake to suggest that the only way we can love you is to agree with you...

I don't see personal attacks in even John Kactuz posts, I see attacks on Islam.

I do not regard the Islamic 'insult' to God the Son calling him 'merely a prophet' as 'hate' towards me, it is a view which I must counter with truth from Scripture.

But I don't have any joy 'attacking Islam' I'm more concerned that the founder is accurately portrayed, not sugar coated as you tend to do here.

I welcome ANY AND ALL attacks on Jesus or Paul or Peter, based on the respect for the recognized sources that you expect us to give to your own. Islam recognizes Quran + Hadith = Sunnah. We recognize the Old and New Testaments.

But let me finish on a positive note, Jesus said. "I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.'

No matter how poorly we may express ourselves, God through Christ is still calling you and all who read this.

I just wanted to remind everyone that this article was about how Indonesian Islam is being hijacked by political extremism.

Just a brief reminder in case anyone forgot.

Good point, Irfan - and thanks for the insightful article.

Unfortunately, the discussion here has been hijacked by the same old Muslim bashers that the vast majority of us tend to ignore, so they're basically preaching to the converted. I think they're pretty harmless in themselves, but their theological rants probably provide some kind of perverse moral justification to the out-and-out racists around the place.

This is of course why some of us argue with them occasionally, but mostly I couldn't be bothered, quite frankly. I'd rather read intelligent articles like yours.

Irf (and Mahatma) the Bali bombings, and attacks on Indonesian Islam are what we are actually discussing, believe it or not.

The bombings came from 'fundamentalist Muslims'
The Fundamentalist Muslims came from "Islam"
Islam came from Mohamed.

A discussion of the historical, behavioral and theological aspects of all these things is quite in order.

This will inevitably lead to a degree of interaction between contributors on issues raised in their posts.

Yes, we do get a bit carried away, 'guilty' as charged.

Mahatma your intellectual superiority complex is yet again noted :)

Irfan,

My postings above reconfirm your views.

Philo,

I reread my posting above; I expressed my views on extremism and a workable staregy to deal with it froma Muslim point of view. I even expressed some of the efforts that myself and other moderates like Irfan do to combat this ideology.

Let me examine the ‘intellectual’ approach to resolving the issue:

BD: convert them all.
Kaktuz: Ship them all to Dar Al Islam: so anyone converts to Islam lose their citizenship: I guess you are asking for Australia to be the mirror side of Saudi!.

I have seen nothing intellectual in the format of suggestions or ideas, all I have seen is character assassination, tall puppy syndrom.

BD,

On the German government archives website, Hitler claims to be executing God/Jesus will with the blood sacrifice of Jews because “there isn’t enough baptism water to clean their sins”