BD,

Gee man what is it with you? Always on the attack and little sense of humour.
First, my intent was humour and not to offend you. Apologies if you were.

Second, the whole issue you are referring to in any reference you chose is a man made ‘hear say’ whether its Ibn Ishaq, Tabari, Razi or any of these people have lived during the time of prophet Mohamed (PBUH). Most of these stories conflict with the Quoran. Aisha, when asked about P. Mohamed manners, she said “his manners were the Quran”. Ie he lived by its teachings.

Anyway, not sure what are you trying to achieve but as I see it Islam or religion is simple: “one God, creation, people, human messengers. Do good, purify your heart, help one another, be good to all creatures, don’t judge, be saved” . That’s what Islam is since Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohamed (PBUT all) are about. The Quoran mentioned Mohamed 4 times only while Jesus was mentioned 33 times. Have a think for a second.

You are still in the comparison phase to convince yourself of your faith but I don’t need to because mine makes sense to me ‘as is’. You sound like you are not easy about the 3 Gods or heads of God (I am guessing, no offence intended).

I wish you will find your inner peace my friend and contribute with a posting on the subject.

Peace,

Fellow-Human,
Quite insightful really. One who continually points to errors in others reveals a lack of certainty regarding oneself. I know we will get bluster regarding this but it is a legitimate observation.

I am not Muslim. I don’t think I ever will be (I do like a wine now and then!) but I greatly appreciate your beliefs and respect your right to them.

All the history picking is pointless and meaningless in the face of what modern Muslims believe their faith is about, regardless of the extremists – which exist in all faiths. Perhaps they are a divine reminder not to judge another (as extremists do) for that is the divine’s role, not ours.

May I ask, are you in Brisbane?

Salam…

F.H. .. I think I need to send you to the optomotrist :) <--- you did not see my SMILEY face.... I didn't realise you were attempting humor, (because I sensed you were just coming back at Kactuz attacks) but at least I addressed you in a friendly way.. and 'offence' ? me ? hardly.

I'm not here for 'me' except in that it does give me a sense of fulfillment to bring the truth of the Gospel to others eyes.

In your case, what I was 'on-about' was this. I observe John Kactuz making a continual attack on Islam, (most of which I can regard as factual, based on the sources) and you giving the 'good cop' version.

So, when it comes to factualness, and sources, I stepped in to underline a couple of crucial points. The most important one was as I pointed out, in that Mohammed carried out "aggressive" raids, (yet you continually remind us this is 'un-Islamic') and then the ICV (until it recently changed them due to anti terror legislation) had as its primary objective "To promote Islam AS PRACTICED by Mohammed"

REASON. If you have a molecule of 'reason' inside of you, u must be able to see the worrisome connection between the MODERN muslims representative agencies stated goals and the FOUNDERS behavior and its implications for us ? If u cannot see the obvious connection then I rather think you are being considerably biased and selective.

I am making a very reasonable connection between 'example' and 'followers' so I fail to see why you take issue with this. The history my friend.. DOES matter when a contemporary body uses it as its guiding example. Your sweeping generalization about 'how modern muslims think' about their faith was rather shallow, as u well know there are many varieties.

F.H. as for Ramadan... you are doing as u see fit, so let me just say that I hope it leads you closer to God :)

Hi Reason,

Agree, sometimes I say why bother: I spent time defending my faith against the Jihadist hijackers, contributing to forums and websites, talking to youth and when I am not, I am defending myself from those who chose to hate us (hate and love are personal choice in my opinion). I will persist though on both because it is a good cause.

I grew up in a place where religion was never a base of identity at school, at home or at work. I have seen churches, minarets and synagogues side by side since, I have seen Coptic priests crying in my father s funeral. Parts of my family in the south of Egypt and Morocco are still on their Christian faith since Islam came to North Africa.

I live in Sydney but travel to Brisbane, Melbourne and Adelaide for business; I work in the IT, ICT services industry.

Yep and I do remember the wine and beer since the drinking days, I am on de-alcoholised red and Coopers Birell (all the taste and 100% compliant)

BD/ Kaktuz,

People chose to hate or love first then they pick up what justifies it.
In your cases, you choose to understand Islam (as the enemy) therefore you educate yourselves in this format: you use missionaries literal translations (the CTF way!) , websites, etc..In a nutshell you refuse to see Islam as Muslims see it.

When I wanted to learn and understand Christianity, I went to the Bible society of Egypt and picked up few copies and material as seen by loving Christians proud of their faith. I did the same when learning about Judaism for instance.

Have you read “What is right with Islam” by Imam Faisal Rauf ? (forward by Karen Armstrong)
Your comment re Ramadan confirms your attitude. I honestly don’t care if you hate us or not, but you can’t claim a better spirituality until you offload it. When Jesus 's friends saw a decomposed body of an animal, he (PBUH) pointed them to "See how white are his teeth".

All the best,

Salam to you all,

Fellow_Human sees intellectual difference as hate. In his terms all must agree that Islam offers the world peace and love.

However the experiences of those not Islamic under Islamic governments surrender their personal freedoms to appease the State. Those insisting the whole world be Islamic terrorise innocent civillians. Why? Because they hate difference.

Perhaps Fellow_Human is using his own definition of hate and transferring it on to those that differ with him. In his world there is no democratic right to hold a different opinion, otherwise you are hating Islam. In his world both cannot coexist. I have many Coptic Christians aquaintances [my wife was one previously]and their view of Islam in Egypt leaves much to be desired in human rights

FH,
First regarding the Muslim Nobel winners... How are they doing? How many were killed and by whom?

Regarding your references, I couldn't have chosen better...

1. http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly.html
It says exactly what I have been saying about Muslims and Islam: hate, rape, murder, conflict, oppression, discrimination, abuse, anger, war, etc... Of course, the reference is very selective about the issues it raises and what texts it cites. Nowhere does it mention that there are texts in the Koran that justify every single issue on the page. It says exactly what I have been saying about Muslims except it takes the rather stupid position that Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.

2. http://www.themodernreligion.com/misc/an/arrogance-mistreat.html
Same problem here. I notice it quotes a bunch of Hadiths that are favorable to Islam. Why does it not mention any of the equally numerous hadiths that tell of beatings, murders, torture, adultery, slavery, etc... I think I have used the word "denial" before. Can any Muslim say "Hey, there is a lot of nice sayings in the Koran and hadiths AND there is some really disgusting and unacceptable stuff." I won't hold my breath. (PS: Do you think Mohammed is going to get some of his own medicine? I refer to the line “the Messenger of Allah said, "Allah will torture those who torture people in this worldy life" Do you think Old Allah will use the old ‘hot iron in the eyes’ method like Mohammed?) (PSS: There sure were a lot of references to slaves in that link. Do you know what year the Saudis officially ended slavery?)

3. http://www.themodernreligion.com/ugly/muslim-racist.html
I have had correspondence with Ms. Alibhai-Brown about 3-4 years ago. I think it was something about Islam and I may have been critical.

Two points here:
1. Once again she says that I have been saying all along. Muslims are hypocrites and do not respect human rights. She talks about the rape, murder and oppression of Christian minorities in Muslim countries. She writes: “Our lives here as Muslims are manifestly better than the lives of many minorities living in our home countries….