Fellow_Human
How do you consider a well-educated wealthy Muslims surgeon could so mistake the meaning of jihad? Wouldn’t he appear as a moderate person in western society? How has his mind accepted such a mission? Please explain! Could what we would consider a moderate person be a lurking terrorist?

Quote, “I thought the Sep11 attackers were all well educated, wealthy people with no criminal records. Ayman Zawahry was a surgeon who never committed a traffic offence.”

I note you are able to define various branches of the Islamic brotherhood, but I never read your outspoken denouncement of the brotherhood. Is it a matter that the end justifies the means?

Is it true that he believed his act by shedding of his own blood it would atone for his sin against Allah and assure him a place in Paradise? From what documented Muslim authority, Qur’an etc, did he learn this theology that he was so convinced his murderous act carried virtue?

Hi Philo,

Glad we can establish a dialogue.
I guess we are dealing with a very distorted bunch of people no matter how smart they are.

The brotherhood is not supposed to be a cult nor a political movement. Also, charity in Islam is not supposed to be 'exclusive' to Muslims ( I contributed among other Muslims and Christians in Egypt in the restoration of the Mar Guirguis and the suspended church in old Cairo).

I read a lot of books in my earlier years to different writers including the founder of Muslim brotherhood movement and Dr Omar Abdel Rahman. It is always a 'sugar quoted poison' for the naive.

I can't figure how can an average Muslim fall into these traps. Maybe its religious naivety, self inflicted paranoia but these people are actually so brainwashed and convinced that their faith is under attack. Questionable hadith might be a tool but I think it is a great deal of frustration combined with lack of understanding of modern day interpretation of religion.

Lets imagine for argument sake that they believe Islam is under attack, why not contribute to forums like these? why not write a book, preach better practice? How can they justify killing, the biggest sin in Islamic religion (even if you step on ant).

There is no 'end justifies the means' in Islam because the Quran teachings is follow the good means and I think you read it too.

Two wrongs never make a right in our faith.

To end terrorism it have to start in Muslim countries by real Muslims (and I will call them moderates because in my view, Islam in essence is moderate).

Foxdemonaau, That site you mentioned (www.globalresearch.ca) is crap – full of leftwing lunitic conspiracy articles and other merda.

FH - No, the lack of conceptual consistency is a proof that a religion (and its texts) is inconsistent and confused (or confusing). It is also an indication that its text is poorly written. The Koran states itself to be simple and easy to understand, yet Muslims have a hard time explaining (or better, justifying) simple concepts and statements in their holy book. There are so many contradictory statements in the Koran that Muslims have developed two basic responses: 1. the doctrine of abrogation (like milk, Koranic verses have expiration dates!) and, 2. most of all, denial and more denial.

You say: “you can either choose to judge a religion by those who follow its teachings or by whatever they claim themselves to be”. Wrong. You choose a religion by its teaching. Period. If you follow people you are in trouble.

You also err in saying that 99% of Muslims have the same understanding of Islam. I guess that is why there are no sects or divisions in Islam (NOT) and terrorist never, ever quote the KORAN (wrong!). The fact is that anybody can get anything from the text. It is full of contradictions, not to mention vague and ambiguous statements.

As for Christianitiy, I’ll leave that to DB.

Islam means “submission” or “surrender”. That part about “peaceful surrender to the will of ALLAH” is just your wishful dreams. Peace really has very little to do with Islam, in case you haven’t been reading the newspapers recently. Jihad means “Holy War” 99.9% of the time. To argue otherwise is, one again, delusional. It only means “inner struggle” when explaining it to the stupid infidels.

FH, because of people like you, the situation will only get worse. You are blind to the many faults and failings of your religion, therefore you cannot change it. Without change, things are going to get much worse. However, on the good side, you try hard and at least you respond to these important issues.

Kactuz

FH

Changing the subject... I was talking eschatology with a friend, and he remarked on the role of Israel in the Bible endtime prophesies. He believes that the Jews are the key to the future, and stated that anybody that messes with the Jews - God’s chosen people - is looking for trouble.

Now, I am not Jewish, and I feel that being one of the chosen is a rather dubious honour, considering the history of the Jews in the last 2,600 years. I would also think that there should be no Jews, just like there are no Hittites, Romans or Trojans. They should have disappeared thousands of years ago. Maybe they are hanging around for a reason.

Now, there are a lot of people who don’t like the Jews, for many reasons – in Europe, Asia, and even the US. More than anybody, however, Muslims hate the Jews. Now that wouldn’t be much of a problem for the rest of us, except that the Arabs and other Muslims have oil – and money and influence. Personally, I see the whole situation as getting worse and worse, with no solution at all. My friend thinks that a United Europe (the New Rome?) will finally step up and impose peace, but even that will not resolve the issue, so he will try to do what Titus did 2000 years ago. At that point God steps in and destroys all the enemies of Israel (the Armies of the Beast, Kings of the East, Gog, Magog, Egypt, etc...). Interesting stuff!

FH, as a Muslim, have you considered the consequences of the confrontation between Israel and Islam? Are you familiar with the books of Revelation and Daniel? Are Muslims doing the devil’s work? Do you ever wonder? How is it all going to end?

I wonder a lot. I wonder about Intelligent Design and Darwinism. I wonder about good vs evil and right vs wrong. Two things I know: the future never is what you expect and people do strange things.

Kactuz.... (yes, this is supposed to be about Bali bombings...)

John K

If I may clarify something in regard to "Israel..Gods Chosen people"

Yes, they were chosen, but not on the grounds of anything special about themselves, it was spefically for the goal of bring salvation to the world through them.

All of God's dealing with Israel, were ultimately about the relationship of man with God, and finally through Christ.

You have touched on some very important parts of Scripture, but tread warily mate, there are many people who kind of 'jump' to rather colorful conclusions about Daniels 70 weeks etc... and many other things.

I do believe the Jews are important in matters eschatological, but I am less confident about exactly how they fit.
What I am confident about is 2 things

1/ The restoration of Israel to the land seems critically important and a portent of unfolding events in regard to Christs return.
(Ezekiel 33ff Matthew 24 Luke 17)
2/ The Jews will be restored to God. Romans 9-11 (covers also the concept of God's "election" of the Jews. "Esau I hated, Jacob I loved" is a Hebrew idiom for 'I chose Jacob'.

Revelation is also helpful though a tad confusing in regard to last days things (if one is looking for a blueprint that is). There are about 4 views of understanding it, and all have some merit.

F.H. Don't take my post on the Waleed Ali article as anything other than 'showing the broader picture'. I myself am constantly criticized (which I accept) and often ridiculed (a practice I avoid towards others) and you might have seen some things Xena has posted 'anti Christianity'.

I don't know of anything Paul said which is 'contra' Jesus for him to win out as you suggested.

We all have to 'roll with the punches' so to speak here.

Turn the other cheek ? you ? :) Well, not exactly, but you are a kind hearted person. And, a closer follower of Jesus than me ? hmm this is a debate forum mate, give as good as u get.

Kaktuz,

Terrorism is based on choice of violence then use words out of context to justify the unjustifiable in any religion. The ‘expiration date’ theory is a cult (invented by AH Gazali some 800 years ago) promoted by terrorists to the naïves. It is our unfortunate version of the KKK.

Yet you confuse a bad practice with a bad theory even though overwhelming majority is working well. Jews did not hold Christianity accountable for Hitler and neither did Muslims over the crusades.

BD,

- Islam hates Jews “myth”: Quran confirms that the Israelites were God’ Chosen people (to spread his teachings). The status was lost (when they took exclusivity over God and rejected Jesus) according to the Holy Scripture.
However, the Quran states clearly that some of the Torah’s followers are good believers and have nothing to fear on the day of judgement (2:61 as you know).
The Quran blames the men of religion who concealed the truth they knew, edited their scriptures (cheated) about God and the prophets and deliberately mislead others.

- Jews lived among Muslims (including Medina for the last 14 centuries). The Arab Israeli conflict is a political struggle though religion is used by both sides to fuel hatred. Personally, I think the Israelites lost by leaving the Arab/ Muslims world and decided to live together alone. Israelis have always been great business men and traders and in fact where safer within Muslim communities. They would have grown into an economical giant with their cousins (the Arabs) if they stayed.

- Prophecies are similar in the Quran and the Bible with the exception in the Quran the confrontation is not a done deal. The prophecy (Al Israa) translates into: “If you chose peace you will be given peace”. God reveals the wisdom of creating us as different nations is not to fight but to know each (ta’ra’fu).

Agree to an extent re hadith. There is a debate now in the Muslim world to get a scrutinised version of the hadith and reissue it. Even though it has no divinity it is confusing to some.