Philo,

Let me correct your understanding of atonement in Islam.

In Islam there are two different atonements and not connected:
Atonement to God and atonement to other fellow humans/society/ animals etc..

For example, a murder is atoned to by earthly judgement (victim’s family to judge the penalty) but atonement to God is different (repent, purify your intention, ie don’t repeat the crime, do good, etc.) If a serial killer or rapist was sentenced to death this have no relation to whether God atoned you from your sin or not.

Divine and human authorities are separate entities in Islam and no human have the authority to judge on God'e behalf or predict God's judgement.

The following are narrated hadith that will help you understand how we see our faith:

- When Mohamed (PBUH) asked his followers “What is a bankrupt?” they said “he who have no money”.
He replied: “the bankrupt is a Muslim who prayed, fasted, paid the alms (good deeds to God). But he comes on judgement day and he insulted this person, robbed that one, spelt the blood of a third. All his victims take from his good deeds until he is left with nothing, then he is sent to Hell”. The metaphor of the story is clear (to me at least).

- In another he said: “Is not a believer he who eats his fill and his brother next door is sleeping hungry”

In the Quran God forgives all sins “to him” but you still have to reconcile towards others (humans and animals).

All the best,

F.H. .... :)

Now I thought you told me that the Hadith are "just stories" ... and here you re using them with reverence to support a view.

Watch out for John K, he might have a field day with that last post :)

We say this, "A miss is as good as a mile"

If a person is to be justified by the Law, obedience, observance, it must be 100%, not 99.999999%

No one can do that, hence God provided a perfect Savior to take our sins upon Himself.

"For God so loved the world....that he gave, his Son, that those who believe in Him shall not perish, but will have everlasting life."

This verse of course, is emphasising the Sonship of God in Christ.
To a Muslim it must sound quite challenging, and not even reasonable.
God giving....Himself.... but this is the mystery of God. Separate, but one.

I can hear you calling the Taliban religious police to get me :)

The charge "Those who join others with Allah are ..."

cheers

Boaz,

Is there a chance ever, this life time, that you get us, Muslims, out of your head?

First I always said Islam is following the Quran, hadith have to be taken carefully on the following basis:
- What conflicts with the Quran is not credible.
- Single source hadith that conflicts with older narrated is usually left out. Mainly because hadith was collected 200 years later after the prophet's death.

This is the opposite of your teachings since:

- Paul's teachings, if in conflict with Jesus, Paul wins.
- Even though all bibles (written by mere mortals) were collected a century after Jesus (PBUH) departed the earth, it is unquestionable God's word in your view. You should see it as we see Hadith actually.

PS:
Did you notice you are always on the attack and I am always 'turning the other cheek' ?
I am more of a Jesus follower than you are :-)

From what I understan is being taught to Jihadists bommers is the following:

Islam holds that any guilty person in society by murdering the enemies of Allah and by the act of shedding his own blood can atone for his own past sin. As a martyr he can becomes a hero as he enters Paradise; no matter how many sins he has committed. He by the first blood he sheds in jihad makes atonement for his past sinful acts of violation of the law of Allah.

This appeals to Islamic criminals who feel the balance of their life in the scales of divine justice does not assure them a place in Paradise. They under Islamic law are guilty of death and must die so by shedding his own blood in martyrdom he can atone for his sins against Allah in this act he makes a grand entry into Paradise. Where are the divine scales here?

One can live an evil life shed his own blood in martyrdom and gain atonement and be assured a place in Paradise. Islamic extremists teach human sacrifice of the guilty in jihad can atone for ones mortal sins.

This would seem to violate the law of God as the blood of the guilty or an unclean animal cannot atone for sin.

Boaz-David,
Waleed Aly is a man with a religious mission to deliberately undermine the democratic principles of other Australians to influence State policy. His constant public presentaiions as appeared in the Sunday Age recently "The Making of Muslim Australia" identifies his constant vision for a Muslim State in Australia. From the beginning his articles while writing on multiculturalism uses this same visionary title. http://www.theage.com.au/news/general/the-making-of-muslim-australia/2005/10/22/1129775997101.html

The use of this concept is single visionary, he does not speak about a Democratic Australia his vision is singular, whenever speaking of multiculturalism he is only focused upon Islam. Making Australia Muslim is the clear vision of this statement.

Also note other Muslim writers of his ilk also use the same phrase. The only religion clarified in the Multicultural Foundation in Victoria is Islam, nothing of understanding other religious faiths.

http://www.amf.net.au/PDF/religionCulturalDiversity/Resource_Manual.pdf

He identifies the land not the people in this phrase, that it belongs to a single religion - Islam, or to a people Muslims.

The Bali bomming is merely a mental hinderance to ordinary Australians as he writes to different opinions OLO and tries to influence our view of Islam; but the bommings realises the ultimately goal as ordinary Australians are terrorised and consent to bow under the influence of Islam. He never identifies in detail how the fallacy of Islam is influencing the mind of these bommers. He constantly defends his position but does not identify how the religion has influenced its fanatics. He even denies Islam does influence its fanatics.

Philo,

“Jihad appeals to Muslim criminals for blood atonement”

I thought the Sep11 attackers were all well educated, wealthy people with no criminal records. Ayman Zawahry was a surgeon who never committed a traffic offence.

Rather than trying to explain what you don’t understand, I have concluded a summary of what Jihad is, its history and political misuse.
After all, we can’t win a war on terror if we don’t know what is driving it.

Jihad: means to struggle, work hard for better self.

There are two defintions for the term:

- Inner Jihad: resist temptations and urges, purify your heart, master your anger and your fear, etc.

- Outer Jihad: work hard to achieve something good:
Looking after your parents when they are old.
Sponsoring the orphan, the income less widow and the helpless (this is different than the alms or a widow.
Student studying hard.
Additional charity (Alms are compulsory in our faith).
Defend your land, home, faith (Defined in the Quran as ‘state driven defence ie against armies and limited to boundaries “fight those who fight you and shall not transgress”).

H.A. Wahab (Founder of the Wahhaby political movement during British Colonialism) took the last one and stretched out of is boundaries and made the definition of enemies and geographies loose. He justified pre-emption and collateral damage based on two things:
- Changing dynamics of warfare (ie cold war is a direct war).
- Quran references to people of the book become irrelevant when nations are under occupation or in a warfare (direct or cold).

This ideology was modified further by 1920 (Muslim Brothers founder S. Kotb) to justify open warfare against british colonialism in Egypt and North Africa.
Early 1970 and under the fear of communism in Egypt, president Sadat supported the Islamic Jihad organisation founded by Dr Omar Abdel Rahman to combat the threat of communism in the region. The ideology was modified further to define any anti Islamic states (including mainly other Muslims) are a just target.

In 1980, they assassinated their very founder and supporter.

Peace,