Yutusu

Last night I was tired and I missed a couple of points in your last post.

You shouldn't read between my lines. What I say is what I say.

Your assuming that my view is intimidating says much about the influences that shape your view.

Indeed if you adhere to the thoughts expressed in Ecclesiastes, as you claim, then the very idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours would be very fearful... and that is one of the major ingredients of westernism.

It's your own inherent fear you express and it is not an expression of a fear of my endorsing my western way.

'You cannot serve two masters.'

Generally Westerners don't. We simply seek for others what we want for themselves. The following expresses how we seek for ourselves and others the balancing of the needs of spirituality and materalism.

'We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness...'

Dear Imajulianutter,

Jews, but a few, do not follow Ecclesiastes. If anything, most Jews are model Westerners.
Christians in general do not follow the teachings of Jesus.
The Greeks do not follow the teachings of Diogenes.
The Americans claim "We hold these Truths to be self-evident", but do not follow them.

Spirituality is by definition the opposite of materialism: one dictionary entry is "incorporeal or immaterial nature", another is "the state or quality of being dedicated to God, religion, or spiritual things or values, esp as contrasted with material or temporal ones". One can split one's time between the material and spiritual, but not have both at once (except those with a multi-personality disorder).

Too much spirituality in the middle-east? Unless you consider land-grabbing and race/male-domination as incorporeal, immaterial or dedicated to God, then you must be kidding... Just because someone follows an established order that calls itself a "religion" does not make them religious!

Applying one's gifted talents is often a great discipline, especially for the young, but the goal is to master one's energy, so that one can then focus it on God, not to achieve a clean floor or a cured disease. Applying one's talents to achieve material results would miss the point and create imbalances. One should do one's duty without expectations - a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build [Ecclesiastes 3,3].

Jews don't consider Jesus exceptional as I do, they most consider him a criminal.

I was assuming that you tried using fear (of untreated illness) to persuade me to accept the Western views. As you say this is not the case, sorry!

The idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours is indeed a valid reason to be afraid, that is unless you are a humanist who believes that you can do better than God. We can of course, to a certain degree exert willful influence, only to make our destiny worse than necessary. Better leave it to God.

i was struck by this yu quote...""Applying one's gifted talents""

http://www.google.com/search?q=bible+talents+increase

god given talent's
http://www.openbible.info/topics/god-given_talents
romans..12:2
what is good and acceptable and perfect...

but matt 25;20
talents arnt meant to stay static[they must be increased]

''' The man who had received the five talents
brought the other five. 'Master,' he said,

'you entrusted me with five talents.
See, I have gained five more.'''

i would add that talents need be good/usefull/gracefull/mercyfull/charit-able..etc

[gifted talents..{beauty?}..

""is often a great discipline,..especially for the young,
but the goal is to master one's energy,..so that one can then focus it on God,""'

i would add and to the betterment/nurture
of his creation..[as in genesis 1;28-30]

if that is..""to achieve a clean floor..or a cured disease.""

or bring peace to a war zone[its all good]
we also serve who sit and think

""Applying one's talents..to achieve material results
would miss the point and create imbalances.""

i love you[you know this]
but we must do our work..here in this realm
[if only that our works 'be known'

""One should do one's duty..without expectations""

absolutly...im doing for god
without expectation..only trying to give back..better than i got

-""a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build [Ecclesiastes 3,3].""

absolutly
its time those who claim to serve god
gave peace to gods favourite city[and its people
for not oner life li8ves..but by gods causing and sustaining it its life

no death can please
the life giving good

love god
by trying to love other
[each-[and every}..*other]

Yutusu,

Here again is our point of difference. I don't jhave much interest in the belief's of individuals or groups of individuals or their behaviours.

What I do examine is how the chronocled beliefs of the groups have impacted on the societies in which individuals partake. ie how the basic beliefs and their initial influence impacted and how they have influenced developmont within their society.

In the west our basis of Justice and society has been influenced greatly by Christ's words and his forgiving emphasis. Other influences have also played, probably, more important roles. Notably the Greeks, the reformation and enlightenment times.

The Isreali law is in contrast based and stated to be based on traditions of the Judean scriptures. It is wrong to say the same of the present Israeli society ... it is a mish mash of contradictions.

As a westerner I enjoy my heritage and do not disparage it, but when looking at Israel justice traditions and society I am critical.

The opposite allpies to you and your views.

Our individaul day to day activities may be dominated by the society we live in but we cannot have the same reasons, nor appreciation, nor the full enjoyment of, nor support for those societies not based in our respective beliefs.

Another very basic difference

'The idea that we can exert influence over our own destiny by our own individual endeavours is indeed a valid reason to be afraid, that is unless you are a humanist who believes that you can do better than God. We can of course, to a certain degree exert willful influence, only to make our destiny worse than necessary. Better leave it to God.'

We believe God gave us free will and that is embodied in our laws and society as I showed in an earlier post. We also reject pre-destination.

'Applying one's gifted talents is often a great discipline, especially for the young, but the goal is to master one's energy, so that one can then focus it on God, not to achieve a clean floor or a cured disease.'

Again a basic difference. We believe we can do one or the other or both. No matter the case the important thing for us is to use our free will and aspire to reach our full potential which we see as being a state our god told us is 'in his likeness'.

You see in exclusive terms only and do not seem to aspire to your God's likeness. You seem to aspire to a state of spititual goodness to the exclusion of anything material ... physical or intangible(eg increasing knowledge.)

This debate has had extraordinary breath and really is challenging and confirming my beliefs.

I hope you find the same.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"Here again is our point of difference. I don't jhave much interest in the belief's of individuals or groups of individuals or their behaviours."

Indeed, and as you have no much interest in these (I do), I also don't have much interest in society and its development. As far as I am concerned, society is an unavoidable by-product of life and my only concern regarding this by-product is that it doesn't get too much in the way of life (just like the way we ensure that household-garbage does not pile up too high).

However, I cannot see the connection between my private views and Israel: the vast majority of Israelis are keen about their society, more than the average Australian.

"We believe God gave us free will and that is embodied in our laws and society"

- So now I need to thank society for not robbing me of God's gifts? Who are they anyway, who think they are bigger and better than God?

"We also reject pre-destination"

- I agree that you can use your will to influence your destiny - but in the long term, only for the worse. Nevertheless, it's very hard to stop using one's will, so even once we understand the futility of our will, we are unable to let go of it overnight, allowing God's will to prevail.

"the important thing for us is to use our free will and aspire to reach our full potential which we see as being a state our god told us is 'in his likeness'."

- Our full potential is to become an empty vessel in God's service.

"You see in exclusive terms only and do not seem to aspire to your God's likeness. You seem to aspire to a state of spititual goodness to the exclusion of anything material..."

- Why aspire merely to God's likeness when you can realize that you ARE God: drop your will, drop your ego, and you will realize you have never been anything but God. Indeed, there is nothing but God. The material can then take care of itself.