yu's quote..""..agree that you can use your will
to influence your destiny -but in the long term,..only for the worse.""

i feel not using our will..to be willfull occasionally
means we allready lost..the ability..[gift]..of freewill

its the egsemptions that confirm the rule

""Nevertheless,..it's very hard to stop using one's will""

i hold its immpossable
[only god is perfect]
[and man is not cnnot be god]

""so even once we understand..the futility of our will,
we are unable to let go of it..overnight""

we place too much expectation
upon our flawed vessels,[gods will is that we grow/learn...know
we cant do that by being perfect blindly...but by trying to be perfect..[as perfect as we allow ourselves to be}

""allowing God's will to prevail.""

for our willingness
to will to DO..good is gods will

"""the important thing..for us..is to use our free will
and aspire to reach our full potential..which we see as being a state our god told us is..'in his likeness'.""..

god hasnt 'told' us
many messengers tried to tell us
[as they tried to tell us in his image
[good..grace mercy..light life charity]

not darkness...fear angst
greed judgment/vile perversions etc]

""Our full potential..is to
become an empty vessel..in God's service.""

where we try..to serve the good's of god]
our vassel is not empty

but empty vessels
do make the loudest noises

"You see..in exclusive terms only...""

and god is fully inclusive of all

exclusive terms only..""do not seem to aspire..to our God's likeness.""

im reminded of the..inspire expire topic
[inspire is gods good IN-spi-ration]

""You seem to aspire..to a state of spititual goodness
to the exclusion..of anything material..."""

this is not..why we have this realm for
we must work in this realm..because we wernt good enough
to aspire the higher being..and havnt earned the lower being

[we are here to get passion..for something..anything..

[we are here to get passionate enough..to live for our passion..]
for good/god/..eternally..preferably good passions..but he dont judge

[but vile
allows better good..to be done
so its all 'good'

""Why aspire..when you can realize..that you ARE God:""

cause we know a part of the all
cant be THE all...one can never be the many

""drop your will""
ill-will..drop our fears,

""drop your ego""
only god is all good
we have eternity to l-earn,
a the summer flower..comes only after much service..through the winter

""and you will realize..you
have never been anything..but""..served..towards love...by God.

""Indeed,..there is nothing but God.""

wether your the heart or kidney
the eye or the mouth..[of good]..or not
your all yet the one god made flesh[its not our smallness that we fear...but the greatness we can find even in the least

""The material..""
can then take care of itself.""

but if you know..a true good..
and dont try..with passion..to bring it..into this reality
others will bring in..ever more vile...

strive for a balance
if it hurts anyone..it hurts god

if its god
doing it..to god...[thats not a good sign]..[madness]..

but god is all good..the error
thus is thus in our conception..that allows for error
we conscoiously...try to avoid..

by listening
to our inner voice..voicing its free choice outwardly

good choice
is good for all..[thus is good..for god]
goods of gods

I understand your beliefs. I have mine. We are simply different. I don't bear an annimonisty to you for you being different. I do think the different beliefs we hold are fairly typical respectively of the majority of Westerners and Israelis. I think those beliefs have impacted on the creation of the respective societies we live in and are a major cause of difference between how our societies impact on ourselves and others.

'However, I cannot see the connection between my private views and Israel: the vast majority of Israelis are keen about their society, more than the average Australian'

Our society attemps to (and sometimes fails) impact equitabitily on all. Israeli society sets out to impact differently on Jewish Israelis, Bedioun, Iranians, Palestinians, all Arabs whether Egyption, Jordanian, Lebanese, Syrian and Saudi,

therein lies the crux of Isreal's disgracefulness. We in the west do understand the basis of our justise system is fairness and forgiveness and we understand the separation of state from religion. They are fundamental to our society.

You are typical of the majority of Israelis and their sympathisers(Except for the likes of Singer, who being a lawyer should know better.) who don't share an understanding of how different Israel is to the west... and the reason why eventually the west will reject Israel.

Yutusu,

we cannot be God,
Christ told us we are made in his likeness.

free will cannot only make things worse,
Christ told us we can choose good or evil but if we ask forgiveness for our (evil)sins we will be forgiven and saved.

'Our full potential is to become an empty vessel in God's service.'
Christ told us our actions show our love for God and that serves to honour him.

Your tone seems to show you adament in your views and critical of mine, and that is a major difference. I don't judge yours, I see only that they are different to mine.

Could these be a few of the differences and reasons that led to the crucifixion?

iamajulianutter,

Your posts are quite extraordinary ... certainly about Israel ... do you ever actually go back and read what you have written ...

I suggest you read:

"Jesus' Attitude towards the Law: a study of the Gospels" by William Loader

"The Trial of Jesus of Nazareth" by S.G.F. Brandon

You might find these enlightening.

In case of any kneejerk reaction to these suggestions, Prof. William Loader is a Christian theologian, as was the late Professor Brandon ... holding among many other positions membership of the Studiorum Novi Testamenti Societas, and of the Society for Old Testament Study.

Dear Imajulianutter,

"You are typical of the majority of Israelis"

A strange thing to say! Very few Israelis think like me.

"Could these be a few of the differences and reasons that led to the crucifixion?"

The answer is a clear NO, because Israel and the Jews are not, and never have (as a nation, there are of course some exceptional individuals), held views similar to mine - it they did, they wouldn't remain Jews!

Where did you get this strange idea as if I represent Israel or the Jews?
The only reason I support Israel is because my family lives there - and so I believe would you if it was YOUR family! I may hate the Israeli expansionist policies, but without the Jewish state my family could not remain alive.

"how different Israel is to the west... and the reason why eventually the west will reject Israel."

The anthropological, perhaps even biological, observation, is that people tend to reject most vehemently those who are close to them and ALMOST the same, rather than others who are distinctly different.

Israel is already being rejected, but what I am supposed to do? say bye-bye to my family and allow them to die there? No, I support their fight for their lives, even if it is tragically alongside the wrong people, how much more so when the people they fight against are even worse!

On the theological side:

There can be nothing but God (anything else would limit God), including us. I think that Jesus had a very hard time explaining such deep concepts to Jewish peasants.

"free will cannot only make things worse"

Not free will itself, of course not, but specific choices we make through it, such as attempting to influence our destiny rather than act at the service of God.

"Christ told us we can choose good or evil but if we ask forgiveness for our (evil)sins we will be forgiven and saved."

"Christ told us our actions show our love for God and that serves to honour him."

I agree with both statements, there is no contradiction.