Well said, R0bert - it takes two to tango, but only one to not. Doesn't matter which gender, really.

billythekid - you seem a bit one-eyed about this stuff. Are you recently single, perchance?

Billy I started a thread on the general discussion area recently on Men's Sheds and other initiatives. Stuff being done to support men http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3734&page=1

So far positive contributions have being overwhelmingly from women.
There are things being done to help men from a number of different tacks. I found MRA to be a massive help at a time when I really needed some help (primarily run by a women by the way). Initiatives like Men's Sheds are helping some to network. There are a variety of health initiatives, groups and individuals recognising that models used to support women may not be the best for men etc.

There are problems and things that don't work well, I think that's accepted by all. I've made my views on bias in anti-DV initiatives, CSA and the family law system well known here over a number of years. Not a view that's accepted by all but that's life.

What does not help efforts to fix the problem's is those who polarise the debate. The maths may not be exact but it's close enough to say that for every argument you can put blaming women for problems there is a similar one that highlights men's roles in the same issue. Blaming just one side may make some feel good and it may even give some short term advantage if that get's enough momentum but overall it harms us all.

There are also benefits to the changes which have taken place. Other than personal choice people are rarely forced to stay in abusive relationships or keep children in those environments. I think that men generally now feel much freer than they used to taking on care responsibilities for their children (including leave from work to care for sick children etc). Those willing to learn from poor choices in a partner first time round may find themselves in a whole lot better place once the trauma of separation and divorce is over by making some different choices later.

R0bert

RObert is the voice of reason on this. The blame game could go on forever. Individuals will sometimes leave their spouses for a variety of reasons some selfish some not. Clearly a person who leaves a relationship does so due to disatisfaction with their lot.

One question we should ask is why the increase in marriage breakdown? Are we all becoming too selfish and uncompromising in relationships. For a long term commitment some sacrifices have to be made; sacrifice is a dirty word for some. Do we expect perfection when perfection is never achievable?

Like billythekid we can all produce examples of discrimination and up until recently child custody and support issues have been weighted towards women, generally because they have been the main caregiver, but this is changing.

These issues cannot be resolved on the basis of gender, but have to be done on a case-by-case basis. We are all ultimately individuals we are not only to be judged on the basis of gender.

One eyed? You bet I am...I've observed the world for a long time and can categorically say that it is by far the petty whims and fantasies of woman that are breaking families up..

yeah, yeah, yeah there are violent men and abusive men and men that aren't (and were never going to be) good fathers or husbands....

And yes I was recently (3 years) absolutely f%$#@%$ over by the system and a woman who I gave everything to....I gave her everything she could expect from the man she married...

She decided she liked the guy at work more than me. Thought she'd simply swap men. i.e. my kids, my home, my wife...Just swap men...Society has told her that's okay...Some of the opinions on this forum tell her that's okay....Morning, noon and nightime TV tell that's okay..

You know the crazy thing is mutual friends see what she did as crazy...(of course that's only what they tell me...they wouldn't dare tell her that because that would hurt her feelings).... But then some mates wives have since done exactly the same thing...NONE OF THEM ARE ANY HAPPIER...but have left so, so much misery in their wake...Seems the grass wasn't greener..it also seems it is the constant pursuit of happiness that woman are seeking externally that is failing them. We (kids and men) are collateral damage.

Pls read my next post also...got carried away and went over word limit..

One mate went to court just last week...I cried when he was telling me the outcome; A beautiful man who is now a shadow of who he was.. .kid's are old enough to not be considered in terms of assets...They both earn about the same...Her super is FAR SUPERIOR (pension plan that unbelievably wasn't considered..)...The magistrate awarded her 80% of the assets after her barrister produced documents of a broken arm she sustained 20 years ago. He had never previously been accused of it. He has no fight left. He cannot go back to court, I can see it in his face; it would kill him....Had he known this was going to be presented in court he could have taken any number of people to say how she broke her arm......Regardless, what I don't understand is HOW IS IT RELEVANT to the division of the assets?...this cost him about $500k at the age of 43...

One eyed? Yes, and very, very bitter too...I had to fight an AVO in court after she punched ME...Police will simply slap one on the guy just to calm things down..Depending on your career, these things can destroy your life (even more than your wife did) ...Fair huh?

You know Dr Phil said something like "overwhelmingly the vast majority of assaults occur after separation" He then said something like "system needs to ensure these men are incarcerated prior to this occurring"....This is the first time I have ever disagreed with anything the man has said.....What about "the system needs to be changed to be fairer to men"?

You could say these men have been peaceful their whole lives until EVERYTHING he ever worked towards had been taken from him, ripped to bits, chewed up and spat out....Then we'll poke him with a stick by keeping his kids from him, financially crippling him, accuse him of things he has not done, and turn our very liberal friends against him....

Perhaps we should be apportioning blame (and i guess therefore some kind of responsibility), as what we are collectively doing AND encouraging is clearly NOT WORKING!

billythekid
I understand how you feel based on your personal experiences and it is difficult to separate the personal from the debate.

However your story about your friend being a broken man has happened to women. Do you think it is only women who leave?

Friend I know was left by her husband for a young girl. His reason for leaving - he at 45 did not want to be tied down by family life and while he was still young wanted to 'find himself'. Hardly saw the kids, left his job to start a business with good ways to hide money - so no financial support was ever forthcoming (except to buy kids expensive presents but not a care about where food was coming from), she lived for a while on SMP then got a part time job, and was self-supporting but it was not easy. The only thing that kept her going was the love for her kids. Luckily she later met a lovely man and has been with him for over 10 years. During this whole time she never once dissed her ex in front of the kids. They were 6 and 10 years when he left and the youngest never really got over it.

Many women find they leave an abusive husband (to wife and kids) only to discover the Court has allowed him access to the children because abuse is so difficult to prove. The risks and dangers and fear about safety of the kids is heart wrenching for these women.

It doesn't matter who leaves, ultimately it has to be what is best for the kids.

It is all very well to say yes there are men that abuse and should never be parents but there is also a bias in the Court when a disastrous decision by a Judge could lead to horrific outcome.