dane,
It's interesting that we are looking at the men verses women question through the very narrow portal of modern times.
Having a baby or surviving childhood used to be just as risky as sailing across the world once upon a time.
I've been researching my family history of late and am now back to the late 17th century in Scotland. The men in the line have done quite well - amongst them are two eminent physicians (one to George II and one to Napoleon on St Helena) There's a Vice-Admiral, two major-generals, three colonels and umpteen solicitors.
Through the generations these men had families that consisted usually of about seven children - often more. The upshot is that only the men could have achieved these ends - the women were busy having their families - no lack of imagination - these babies became the men who achieved all these things.
It's different now and the roles have become blurred,no reason impugn the integrity, creativity and sheer impact of the female of the species.

dane, "I'd put money on it that you are one of these men who run around doing two jobs and all the housework while your wife sits on her arse watching TV and telling her friends how you split the housework equally."

No I only had the one job and she was at church meetings rather than watching telly. I didn't do all the housework (but all the outside work because that was "men's work" and a lot of the housework). That marriage did not last.

There are women like that, they are not the women fighting for genuine equality. They are the ones hanging off the coat tails of feminism clinging to gendered roles when it suit's them and playing issues when it's to their benefit. There are men who do similar, expecting the missus to earn her keep working and still do all the housework, kid's business etc.

There are social structures and people which try to keep both men and women in traditional gender roles. I differ from standard feminist analysis of those structures in that I don't believe that they are a masculine construct, people from both genders have worked hard to create and maintain them.

The sooner we move on from both the "men as problem, women as victim" and "women as useless, men always paying the price" mentalities the better off we will all be.

I don't accept that the answer is to attack all women or to resist genuine moves for equal opportunity.

I've seen nothing to suggest that women don't respond as well as men when they have the opportunity and visa versa. Some will take that opportunity and do great things, others will squander it.

R0bert

R0bert, CJ Morgan, Poirot

I dips me lid (well, stack-hat).

Dane

Here's a link to a documentary that you will find enthralling and while you watch note the numbers of female scientists and consider that women will indeed be placing humans (men and women) on Mars in the projected future.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/voyage/episodes/default.htm

Or you can continue creating your own crisis.

Cheers

A little while ago, I had the privilege of running a school-based program that took the troubled boys - the bullies, the victims, the criminals, the social outcasts - away on three-day camps. The program was simple - they cooked for each other, they cleaned up after each other, they snorkelled together, they shared meals together, they played footy on the beach together and they just spent a bit of time sharing and telling stories together. A lot of these boys came from 'broken homes' and had never really spent time with males. They had spent their childhood constantly being 'wrong' because they did things the 'boy' way.

Sure, we had the occasional blow-up and even the occasional punch was thrown. But by the end of each camp, the boys were quite harmonious. The bullies would stick up for the victims, rather than punching them. The outcasts suddenly had a whole bunch of friends or at least acquaintances to say 'hi' to every day. They were free to be who they were but, after a few days together, they had come to accept others for who they were and had also come to be accepted themselves. I won't claim a 100% success rate, but the program was pretty powerful.

After a couple of years, the program was taken out of my hands and placed in the hands of female counsellors and youth workers. They talked about their feelings, played little role-playing games and presto! The victims became victims once again, and the bullies were left to their own devices. They could understand why they were wrong, and they knew how to deal with bullying, but they lost that bond that had solved, rather than patched up, the problems. These counsellors did an admirable job, and clearly knew a lot more about child psychology than me. But perhaps I knew boys better than them, and perhaps boys accepted positive messages from 'one of their own' more readily?

Otonoko
Those sorts of camps have proven to be great successes particularly with Indigenous boys and those involved in juvenile crime. Sometimes words and discussions can't compete with honest down to earth sharing the hard yards to create longer lasting bonds. That is why male role models like yourself are important in tackling the issues of troubled boys.

I hardly know how to respond to dane. The retort to RObert was uncalled for and would be parallel me to making assumptions that dane probably sends his wife out to work and expects her to do all the housework and cooking and childcare when she gets home. That is why the notion of partnership in happy marriages is important - there is no them and us, it is just us. The idea of a Head of the Household is absurd in this day and age, and what happens to a woman if the HOH is a bully and a dictator. I suppose people like dane think those women should just shutup and get on with serving her man.

I wonder if dane and/or Warwick could define what they mean by masculinity. There is much confusion for boys granted, they are continually bombarded with mixed messages about what it means to be a man. Girls have similar messages especially when it comes to child raising and the propensity to cast us all as working families with no other significance than to serve some warped sense of economy.

Robert

If only the rest of the OLO community could respond to personal attacks as calmly and articulately as you, we could make some progress discussing these emotive issues.