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The masculinity crisis : Comments

By Warwick Marsh, published 17/6/2010

The crises in masculinity and men’s health are closely related to the rampant discrimination men endure at the hands of the system.

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I think there needs to be a reevaluation by men of who and what they are. Our culture celebrates macho, bullying, thuggish and violent men. Look at the types of "heros" we have. Sportsmen that impregnate 16 year old school girls, who bond over gang bangs and show scant regard for women and girls. The internet is full of porn that is increasingly violent and hateful towards women. Militaristic games emphasise violence and dominance towards the "other" and "enemies".

If men see this as acceptable they in fact also disregard the parts of themselves that are able to share, be vulnerable, brave, restrained, compassionate and fair. There is also no reason that masculine energy and daring needs to be channeled into avenues that harm others. There are better uses for this power.

No doubt the author will see this as encouraging wimpy men. However the men I admire and love are strong and brave enough to put others first, to help solve problems and to help do the emotional work that is vital in bringing up kids. They are part of society and do not expect to be constantly put first like unsocialised toddlers. They know how to pull their weight and that being an adult is hard work - whether you are male or female.

Men have many advantages that women do not. They are also constrained and stunted by some expectations. However until there is a long and honest conversation about men, their collective and historical power and how to improve things for them without (as usually happens) disadvantaging women and kids, then things will not improve.

Posted by lillian, Thursday, 17 June 2010 10:18:35 AM

"I think there needs to be a reevaluation by men of who and what they are."

Lillian, it is not only for Men to re-examine who and what they are, it is for everyone to do so. Think about this for a second 'Why are Men who and what they are?'

The answer is very simple, they are expected to be who and what they are. Take any playground of any school and you will see it, the strong overpower the weak, the brush and uncouth overshadow the reserved, the violent assault the peaceful. This is an epidemic that starts in early life. Bullying, violence, disregard for the safety and health of others are learnt while children. The problems of this generation where set in motion decades ago.

Boys and Men have always been taught that boys don't cry, you have to be good a sport to be somebody, if you can't hold your drink your worthless, etc., ad infanitum. This pressure which is applied to the younger generations is not solely from men but also in large part from women too. Look at what happens, the best looking girls in school - who are they interested in? The nice 'nerd' or the bullying sports 'hero'? This adds pressure to otherwise healthy boys to act in a particular way. Who are the ones honoured and praised on the news? The peaceful scientist who has just cured a disease or the violent sport star who kicked a goal? This adds pressure for otherwise healthy boys to act in a particular way. Which is more praised by both parents, an A in English or the winning goal of a sports match?

Men not only have the responsibility for correcting the current situation, we ALL do. And only when we ALL face up to that will we finally find a way out of this mess.

Posted by Arthur N, Thursday, 17 June 2010 10:44:50 AM

Arthur N

That's a very simplistic response; that male behaviour is determined by attractive women?

Sure I like a healthy man, but if he behaves like a thug, forget it.

Most women aren't vacuous Paris Hiltons - we actually like men who like us, I prefer them in fact. And follow up with intelligence and wit - we may have something happening here.

Most men I know are not in crisis, they are confident in themselves, will help others and are non-judgemental.

This article is just another whiny beat-up by the very conservative Warwick Marsh whose affiliations are with conservative religious groups - not noted for their liberal views. Now maybe there is a crisis within these groups, as they must find themselves continually at odds with contemporary mores.

Posted by Severin, Thursday, 17 June 2010 11:39:27 AM

Mr Marsh, there is plenty of research world wide about masculinity and where it stands in our modern world.

Check out this website:
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/egm/men-boys2003/Connell-bp.pdf

"Research has repeatedly shown that patterns of gender inequality are interwoven with social definitions of masculinity and men's gender
identities. To move towards a gender-equal society often requires men and boys to think and act in new ways, to reconsider traditional images of manhood, and to reshape their relationships with women and girls. Changes of this kind are already happening in many parts of the world, but not in all situations or with all men and boys."

Here's the thing Mr. Marsh, women are not going to go back into the kitchen full-time like they did in the '50s typical nuclear family,
no matter how hard you pray.

Women are no longer prepared to accept being treated as second best, and both men and boys need to adjust to this new reality if we are all to live in a gender equal society.

Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 17 June 2010 12:50:52 PM

'Here's the thing Mr. Marsh, women are not going to go back into the kitchen full-time like they did in the '50s typical nuclear family,
no matter how hard you pray.'

No wonder the muslims laugh at our pathetically feminized society full of emasculated males when you read suzies degradation of motherhood. Fortunately Suzie there are still many men who refused to be domibated by feminazis. Thankfully there are many children blessed to have the man taken his god given responsibility to lead their families. Thankfully their are enough woman around who enjoy the protection and leadership of their families as opposed to whimpish emasculated excuses for men.

Posted by runner, Thursday, 17 June 2010 1:25:43 PM

runner: << Thankfully there are many children blessed to have the man taken his god given responsibility to lead their families. Thankfully their are enough woman around who enjoy the protection and leadership of their families as opposed to whimpish emasculated excuses for men. >>

So what's Warwick whingeing about? If godbotherers want to live in a 1950s time warp, that's cool. It's only when they want to impose it on the rest of us that they seem to experience a "masculinity crisis".

Maybe they should just look after their own apparently fragile masculinities, and leave the rest of us alone.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 17 June 2010 1:44:41 PM

Severin, I fear you have missed the point of my post. These behaviours that are troubling to lillian are learnt in youth. Yes you may like the shall we say 'nice guy', but that is the exception and not the rule in youth. And no I am not saying that male behaviour is determined by attractive women. I am saying that many youths try to be accepted, and often this takes the form of social status in the school yard. To be seen with the 'attractive female' is to be accepted. Moreover, the vast majority of these 'attractive females' are themselves looking for acceptance. To be seen with the sport star is to be accepted. This leads to elitism, exclusion, bullying and even violence - all forms of abuse. This then leads to acceptance of abusive situations as normal and even as being possitive. These behaviours are as I have said before are learnt in youth and unless something drastic happens they are carried in one form or another through out adult life. This is the cause of the problem, the social ideal imposed on children (who are made to think that it is all and everything by our society) - not the single 'fact' of men are influenced by attractive females.

Posted by Arthur N, Thursday, 17 June 2010 3:29:17 PM

Posted by Formersnag, Thursday, 17 June 2010 4:14:59 PM

You're on the 'list' CJ for "imposition" :)

Topic.
Destroy mens sense of identity= destroy society.

That identity might not be the same in a given number of 'tribes'...but it is nevertheless a vital part of keeping a society afloat.

My favorite link which CJ would have predicted by now is...

http://marriottschool.byu.edu/emp/WPW/pdf/class/Class_5-Unintended_Consequences_of_Modernization.pdf

Of course.. the Title is "BIG MEN don't CRY" err.. or something like that.

Happy reading and concluding.

Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 17 June 2010 5:17:04 PM

Gee Runner, you are a brave man to take on the many good men of today who bring up their families together with their wives, as opposed to 'leading them', as you obviously do!

As far as I am concerned, a man who has an equal partnership with his wife is far more of a masculine man than one who 'leads' his family as a dictator would.
Thank God your lot are in the minority.

Formersbag, do you seriously imagine that anyone, with the exception of AlGoreisrich or Antiseptic, would read all your many mad websites noted above?

Surely, there should be a limit on how many website addresses can be posted for any one post?
The word count is surely too much anyway.

Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 17 June 2010 5:57:24 PM

Suzoneline.....*cough*

err..I'm wondering why...with alll the choices of analogy to make for "men who lead".. in regard to runner you only opted for the

//one who 'leads' his family as a dictator would.//

Why pray tell...does a man who leads.. need to be a dictator ?

Are you suggesting every captain of a footy team is a 'dictator' ?

Is there no room in your scheme of things for a leader to 'inspire'?

Surely any book on leadership will suggest it is:

*The process of social influence in which one person can enlist the aid and support of others in the accomplishment of a common task*

or

* "ultimately about creating a way for people to contribute to making something extraordinary happen."*

But..because Runner is a Christian perhaps? you choose DICTATOR!!

My my.. no prejudice in you is there ? :)

Why not consult the 'user manual' for husbands and wives ?

"25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her"

Have you never read or heard those words? Do they sound like a 'DICTATOR'?

I suspect you had a 'bad Church experience' most likely as a student at a Catholic school... where you derived your DICTATOR view.

Please... it is
a) Incorrect.
b) Offensive.
c) Insulting.

Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 17 June 2010 7:25:46 PM

David I think most of us have seen enough of runner's views over the years to discount any possibility of social influence or inspiration. If he is in fact the head of his home (something I suspect is more in his mind than reality) it's unlikely to have anything to do with inspiration, consideration, a servant nature etc.

It's always possible that his posts on OLO are a game which has nothing to do with his real life nature but I doubt it.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 17 June 2010 7:35:02 PM

Algoreisrich, if we are going to quote the Bible for comments on how they think women should be treated, then how about these ones?

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

See Al, anyone can cherry pick what they like from the 'Good Book".

Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 17 June 2010 8:13:36 PM

Some commentators now link feminisation of society with that other bane of the Western world – Left-wing liberalism. It is probably the fault of weak liberal males, and their tendency to quail in the face of undemocratic ‘positive discrimination’.

The attitude is that, just because a person happens to be a female, that person must be artificially elevated to positions they might not be suited to. Public service departments under Labor Governments are a good example. Incompetent women pushed to the top of the hierarchy simply for being women. The really badly performing departments are inevitably run (badly) by women. This is not to say that there are women who could do the job properly, if only they were treated the same way as men – on merit, not gender.

The good managers – of both sexes – are in the private sector where they have to actually make a profit, and don’t have powerless taxpayers (employers) paying their salaries.

Of course, the days of keeping women bare-foot and pregnant are long gone; but, women trying to be men – being encouraged to be like men by socialist governments – has to be one of the main reason our family structures have broken down. White liberal feminisation is the main reason why Western society and values have broken down.

Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 17 June 2010 8:30:43 PM

<This article points out that in four out of five marriages the man is the one who is left.>

The question is, why? Women are obviously not feeling very supported or loved in these marriages.

Maybe a study should be done to try and figure out if there is some common reason that these women give for leaving their marriages. Maybe therein lies a clue as to what the men who feel there is a crisis of masculinity can do to earn back their masculine brownie points as respected husbands and fathers and teachers.

There does seem to be a general lack of respect for men by women in society. Maybe it mirrors back the disrespect with which a lot of men treat women

Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 17 June 2010 10:47:04 PM

Come on Cherful, what a crock. We all know how it goes, & it aint like that.

We all know young women aren't enough living alone, so they have to get a bloke.

Then something called biology takes over, & they have the urge to breed.

They use his sperm for that, & his earning capacity to raise their kids. Yes, their kids, [not his], ask the family court about that. Of course, from what paternity testing tells us, quite a few aren't his anyway.

Now the kids are gone, & someone tells them they can get rid of him, but keep most of the money. That family court will give them the house, car, & most of everything else, & half his super. They can live the life of Riley, while he is on the bones ho his ar5e.

Yes there's a masculinity crisis all right, but it's mainly because the men are just too good natured for their own good.

Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 17 June 2010 11:30:28 PM

Leigh <"White liberal feminisation is the main reason why Western society and values have broken down."

Are you suggesting that:
Caucasian (that is, only the white people),
liberal (one that favours reform, open to new ideas and tolerant of others behaviours),
feminisation (a supposed change of gender roles in a society toward the characteristically "female" role),
is the main reason western society and values has broken down?

I haven't seen any feminization of the men around me... and I wonder if any of the other men on this site agree they have been 'feminised'.

When did Western society break down?

Do you mean after feminism has succeeded in 'allowing' women to vote, control their own fertility, work outside the home, access education, leave a violent marriage, and have (almost) equal pay for equal work?
Which of these do you think we can do away with?

http://www.helium.com/debates/296550-has-feminism-assisted-the-breakdown-of-family-values/side_by_side

"If giving equal rights to women has been responsible for a breakdown in ‘family values,’ it is the concept of ‘family values’ that needs to be examined rather than the concept of feminism, which has done a great deal to improve the lives of women and girls over the past hundred years."

Posted by suzeonline, Thursday, 17 June 2010 11:59:30 PM

Dear Suz
I actually looked at your link in an earlier post about the role of men and boys in gender equality..and the first thing which came to my mind was..."Frankfurt school/Marcusian Critical theory/Marxism"

Not a good choice of source or authority for your position.

Yes.. anyone can cherry pick... after all..I did.
I picked the BALANCE verse which puts the others you chose into context.. strange.. no-one wishing to have a 'Chrisitan bash' ever quotes it....but they sure as heck quote the ones you did.

But back to your quotes... "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord." please just consider for a moment.. how 'The Lord' treated people...how he acted in regard to his disciples.
-Selfless...
-loving..
-compassionate..
-patient etc...most of all
-self sacrifice.

The Timothy reference:

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

You should have quoted the next bit :) it's a deuzy

"Women shall be saved through having children...if they continue in faith love and holiness"

I confess, they are probably the most difficult verses in the whole New Testament to grapple with. I think Paul was having a bad day :)

My own tradition has generally taken the first part very seriously.(the silence bit) though now we have probably more women speaking than men.... There are precedents which suggest this was not a firm/rigid inflexible rule..such as.
Rom 16:1

1 I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deaconess of the church in Cenchrea.

Of course the concept of deacon/diakonos was 'servant' rather than ruler.. and this reflects Christ's example too.

Bottom line.. however we understand the Timothy reference to silence, I believe it has a context (congregational meetings)...and the framework it exists in is one of servanthood...not dictatorship.

Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 18 June 2010 4:59:10 AM

Suze

Excellent posts. Notice how sensitive AGIR is to comments threatening "male leadership" - tut tutting away like an old rooster.

Arthur N

While there is no doubt that sporting heroes and pretty girls are in many ways synonymous - that is a small part of the diversity of experiences children have in reaching adulthood. Not all pretty girls want a sports star on their arm, in fact I suggest, that men tend to desire acceptance by other men as being more an acknowledgement of "masculinity". And a limited one at that. Look at the furore that has resulted in the past whenever women are included in many endeavours that were considered the realm of the male, from politics to heading companies or scaling mountains and single-handed yachting. Just as we have expanded the horizons for women, so too we need emancipation for men.

In complete opposition to the 50's version of masculinity espoused by Marsh, we require men who are far more than such tight-lipped, stern jawed stereotypes. Most men want to feel accepted if they do have emotional responses to experiences rather than conform to a limited and anachronistic mode for male behaviour.

Most men are managing to do this - although it is not an easy path when role models are limited to so-called 'power' types such as sport-stars, CEO's or political leaders.

The major crisis being experienced by men are those who think in the same terms as Warwick Marsh. Most men are now free to enjoy being an active involved fathers, showing their emotions and being friends with the women in their lives rather overlords.

Posted by Severin, Friday, 18 June 2010 10:54:30 AM

Severin you express it very well, I liked your last paragraph and it is a very important observation.

Despite all the concerns Mr Marsh raises about masculinity, men are as Severin said much more free to openly enjoy being family men without the same pressures to be seen as macho men who don't change nappies who are down the pub with the blokes.

Granted we are a society in transition and issues of masculinity should not be devalued but we seem uncertain as to what is masculine. Some see it as being the head of the household. The Bible says some pretty disparaging things about women as posted by Suze above, which is not surprising given it was written in patriarchial times.

Marriages do better with equal respect and where decision making powers are shared. It is a partnership afterall.

As for health - men have always been backward in coming forward regarding personal health issues. Maybe now there is not this pressure to be macho (in most scenarios) men will take personal responsibility for their health. We are all responsible for our own health.

When have women's and men's roles really been static. The idea of women working out of the home is nothing new except for the privileged. Working class women and peasant societies always saw men and women in the fields often with babes in a sling or to one side.

Posted by pelican, Friday, 18 June 2010 3:16:23 PM

Pelican

Thank you for your kind comments.

Your point regarding men's health reminded me of an article I read recently about the shame process and its impact on men seeking help for their physical and mental problems. This article is mostly confined to mental health issues and I believe is most pertinent to this thread:

"Shame may be the least understood dimension of men's inner experience—by both men themselves and the people who live with them. In Affliction, Russell Banks's classic novel about the tragedy of masculinity, a ne'er-do-well named Wade Whitehouse plans a special Halloween weekend with his 11-year-old daughter, Jill, who lives with her divorced mother, Lillian. Wade's clumsy efforts to make sure Jill has a good time succeed only in making her feel anxious and out of place, and she winds up pleading with him to take her home. But instead of her distress, what stands out for him is his sense of failure: he's shamed by the fact that she's unhappy."

and many would identify with this:

"Men often resist standard therapy because they have a hard time admitting that anything is wrong or, if they think something is wrong, they struggle to identify what it is. Another reason they avoid therapy is that they can't tolerate the internalized stigma—the felt shame—associated with feeling needy, dependent, or incompetent. A third disincentive, even with men who know they need help, is the very idea of sitting in a room, talking out loud about all this touchy-feely stuff; it creeps them out."

http://www.alternet.org/story/147105/shame-o-phobia%3A_why_men_fear_therapy?page=entire

I really urge all readers to read the article in full. This is a realistic look at the difficulties facing many men particularly compared to Warwick Marsh's narrow frame of reference.

Posted by Severin, Friday, 18 June 2010 3:35:12 PM

Warwick,

A good article but how do you hope to compete with the millions upon millions of dollars propping up the women's industry? Children are now seen as the possessions of women and men are seen as just paychecks supporting womens 'entitlements'.

We could ask how did it come to this? After all, it was men who put men on the moon (women were obviously using their superior 'interpersonal skills' at the time). As one prominent feminist admitted, if it were up to women then we'd still be living in caves. It's true of course. But for 40 or 50 years now we've had this enormous industry propping up women's 'rights'. Yet if women are so equal then why do they need so many bureaucracies propping them up? The answer is of course that women aren't equal at all. I mean come on. It took 2500 years of civilisation for women to work out that they were getting the raw end of the deal. Yet we constantly get this smug sense of superiority from women claiming 'equality'!

I'll admit we're equal when I see women put woem on mars.

Posted by dane, Friday, 18 June 2010 4:35:49 PM

What are you on about dane?

Women did not have equal participation in education, science or the workplace at the time of the moon landing. And so what! Do you dismiss lightly the work of other women such as Madame Curie, Dr Fiona Wood, Professor Fiona Stanley just to name a few.

Your criteria for fairness and equality is based on a very narrow view of 'worth'.

What about all the men who are not capable of putting others on the moon, do we also throw them on your human trash heap.

You probably don't mean to sound like a snob or a despot but that is how you come across.

Posted by pelican, Friday, 18 June 2010 4:49:07 PM

Pelican is right Dane, you are being very narrow minded.

Do we need to go on about all the wars started my men, the atomic bombs, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and all the other violent old boys that did nothing but harm to the people of their world?

Women may be late starters in the scientific or political history of our world, but that is only because it is only fairly recently that we have been 'allowed' to have equal education and university opportunities.

I would hate to see an 'us versus them' situation develop in our world though.
I would hope that any discovery or invention would be developed by either men or women as a positive addition to all our lives.

Posted by suzeonline, Friday, 18 June 2010 5:03:19 PM

Dear dane,

Can you explain to me what was so hot about putting men on the moon - excepting some useful technology that was developed along the way, I can't see that it was a particularly useful endeavour. Seems to me that that particular exercise was more about trumping the Russians than anything else.

Posted by Poirot, Friday, 18 June 2010 5:19:39 PM

dane, ditto to the previous comments by pelican and Suzie.

Given the traditional roles at the time it was mostly women who nurtured and did most of the upbringing of the children who became the scientists and engineers who put men on the moon.

You might also have a look at http://sciencewomen.blogspot.com/2009/08/women-of-apollo-program.html

and http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/people/bios/women/a.whitaker.html

and http://womensphilanthropy.typepad.com/stephaniedoty/2010/02/notable-women-in-black-history-evelyn-boyd-granville.html

Maybe an apology to the women you have belittled with those comments would be in order.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Friday, 18 June 2010 5:30:13 PM

My point is that if women are equal then why do they need this enormous superstructure supporting their 'equality'?

The point that Warwick is alluding to but unwilling to spell out is that men do worse than women on so many indicators because society values them less than women. Russian women fought and died on the front lines 60 years ago. This week we've had two young men die in Afganistan. Where are the feminists asking why it's men not women dying?

Women live 6 years longer than men. For many years men worked longer than women even though they lived shorter lives. Well, if women are equal why don't we split the difference. Say make retirement for women 70. Wouldn't that be fair?

Of course, that would never happen. Because the corollary of Warwick's agrument is that women value themselves much higher than men. They don't match themselves against the universe (Poirot: they can't even imagine why you would want to put that long life expectancy at risk), they match themselves against men. So long as do better than men then thay are happy.

When women have the wonder, imagination and abilty to put themselves against the universe (and are willing to pay for it) then I might begin to think we are equal.

Posted by dane, Saturday, 19 June 2010 10:34:22 AM

robert,

I don't like being personal but you really are pathetic. I'd put money on it that you are one of these men who run around doing two jobs and all the housework while your wife sits on her arse watching TV and telling her friends how you split the housework equally. Well, if that gives you a warm inner glow - fine, but don't try telling other men they ought to be conned too.

Posted by dane, Saturday, 19 June 2010 10:43:04 AM

dane some more light reading

http://www.graduatingengineer.com/articles/19980315/Women-Engineers-Make-Their-Mark

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/101408_women-scientists-of-the-20th-century

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_pre-21st-century_female_scientists

Now imagine what might have been if Mr and Mr's Grundy had not been so busy ensuring that a woman's place was in the home whether she liked it or not.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 19 June 2010 10:46:18 AM

The attitudes that dane expresses about women are positively Neanderthal. I'm not at all surprised that his version of "masculinity" is in crisis, since it has no place in 21st century Australian society.

I wonder if he has calluses on his knuckles?

Posted by CJ Morgan, Saturday, 19 June 2010 11:25:04 AM

dane,
It's interesting that we are looking at the men verses women question through the very narrow portal of modern times.
Having a baby or surviving childhood used to be just as risky as sailing across the world once upon a time.
I've been researching my family history of late and am now back to the late 17th century in Scotland. The men in the line have done quite well - amongst them are two eminent physicians (one to George II and one to Napoleon on St Helena) There's a Vice-Admiral, two major-generals, three colonels and umpteen solicitors.
Through the generations these men had families that consisted usually of about seven children - often more. The upshot is that only the men could have achieved these ends - the women were busy having their families - no lack of imagination - these babies became the men who achieved all these things.
It's different now and the roles have become blurred,no reason impugn the integrity, creativity and sheer impact of the female of the species.

Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 19 June 2010 11:28:48 AM

dane, "I'd put money on it that you are one of these men who run around doing two jobs and all the housework while your wife sits on her arse watching TV and telling her friends how you split the housework equally."

No I only had the one job and she was at church meetings rather than watching telly. I didn't do all the housework (but all the outside work because that was "men's work" and a lot of the housework). That marriage did not last.

There are women like that, they are not the women fighting for genuine equality. They are the ones hanging off the coat tails of feminism clinging to gendered roles when it suit's them and playing issues when it's to their benefit. There are men who do similar, expecting the missus to earn her keep working and still do all the housework, kid's business etc.

There are social structures and people which try to keep both men and women in traditional gender roles. I differ from standard feminist analysis of those structures in that I don't believe that they are a masculine construct, people from both genders have worked hard to create and maintain them.

The sooner we move on from both the "men as problem, women as victim" and "women as useless, men always paying the price" mentalities the better off we will all be.

I don't accept that the answer is to attack all women or to resist genuine moves for equal opportunity.

I've seen nothing to suggest that women don't respond as well as men when they have the opportunity and visa versa. Some will take that opportunity and do great things, others will squander it.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 19 June 2010 11:29:55 AM

R0bert, CJ Morgan, Poirot

I dips me lid (well, stack-hat).

Dane

Here's a link to a documentary that you will find enthralling and while you watch note the numbers of female scientists and consider that women will indeed be placing humans (men and women) on Mars in the projected future.

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/voyage/episodes/default.htm

Or you can continue creating your own crisis.

Cheers

Posted by Severin, Saturday, 19 June 2010 11:41:13 AM

A little while ago, I had the privilege of running a school-based program that took the troubled boys - the bullies, the victims, the criminals, the social outcasts - away on three-day camps. The program was simple - they cooked for each other, they cleaned up after each other, they snorkelled together, they shared meals together, they played footy on the beach together and they just spent a bit of time sharing and telling stories together. A lot of these boys came from 'broken homes' and had never really spent time with males. They had spent their childhood constantly being 'wrong' because they did things the 'boy' way.

Sure, we had the occasional blow-up and even the occasional punch was thrown. But by the end of each camp, the boys were quite harmonious. The bullies would stick up for the victims, rather than punching them. The outcasts suddenly had a whole bunch of friends or at least acquaintances to say 'hi' to every day. They were free to be who they were but, after a few days together, they had come to accept others for who they were and had also come to be accepted themselves. I won't claim a 100% success rate, but the program was pretty powerful.

After a couple of years, the program was taken out of my hands and placed in the hands of female counsellors and youth workers. They talked about their feelings, played little role-playing games and presto! The victims became victims once again, and the bullies were left to their own devices. They could understand why they were wrong, and they knew how to deal with bullying, but they lost that bond that had solved, rather than patched up, the problems. These counsellors did an admirable job, and clearly knew a lot more about child psychology than me. But perhaps I knew boys better than them, and perhaps boys accepted positive messages from 'one of their own' more readily?

Posted by Otokonoko, Saturday, 19 June 2010 12:11:22 PM

Otonoko
Those sorts of camps have proven to be great successes particularly with Indigenous boys and those involved in juvenile crime. Sometimes words and discussions can't compete with honest down to earth sharing the hard yards to create longer lasting bonds. That is why male role models like yourself are important in tackling the issues of troubled boys.

I hardly know how to respond to dane. The retort to RObert was uncalled for and would be parallel me to making assumptions that dane probably sends his wife out to work and expects her to do all the housework and cooking and childcare when she gets home. That is why the notion of partnership in happy marriages is important - there is no them and us, it is just us. The idea of a Head of the Household is absurd in this day and age, and what happens to a woman if the HOH is a bully and a dictator. I suppose people like dane think those women should just shutup and get on with serving her man.

I wonder if dane and/or Warwick could define what they mean by masculinity. There is much confusion for boys granted, they are continually bombarded with mixed messages about what it means to be a man. Girls have similar messages especially when it comes to child raising and the propensity to cast us all as working families with no other significance than to serve some warped sense of economy.

Posted by pelican, Saturday, 19 June 2010 12:49:31 PM

Robert

If only the rest of the OLO community could respond to personal attacks as calmly and articulately as you, we could make some progress discussing these emotive issues.

Posted by benk, Saturday, 19 June 2010 9:13:32 PM

1.HAS BEEN <THEN SOMETHING CALLED BIOLOGY TAKES OVER AND THEY HAVE THE URGE TO BREED>
And your urge to stick your penis into women has nothing to do with the urge to breed. I suggest you refrain from this biological urge if you do not wish to produce offspring.

2.HAS BEEN <THE MEN ARE JUST TOO GOOD-NATURED FOR THEIR OWN GOOD>

That’s HILARIOUS. We can see by taking a snapshot of the atrocities committed against women all around the world just what a sweet natured sex the male is if they are allowed to do things their way.

ALGOREisRICH <Wives submit yourselves unto your husbands as unto the lord>

Well any men writing text to govern society (obeying Christian rules as they did strictly in days of yore) would write that wouldn’t they.

The female is the prototype and the male the carbon copy. That is why men have nipples that serve no earthly purpose. In biology right across the globe the female dominates. The female chromosome X contains most of the genetic code that makes up a human being, the Y chromosome is simply added over the X to turn the predominantly female fetus into a male. If the Y chromosome is damaged the fetus can still go on to be a perfectly functioning human being without defect, If the X chromosome is damaged even slightly there will be some kind of handicap or deformity that will occur in the human being. In the lab it is known as the EVE principal. Stick that in your Adam was created first pipe.

Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 19 June 2010 9:52:26 PM

Good one Cherful, but you missed one thing, the definition of pregnancy.

That is "something taken seriously, that was only poked in fun". Now if you lot could just tell that Y chromosome of yours to learn to take a joke, you would have none of these problems.

Biology & breeding has very little to do with where most men stick their penis, most of the time, it's all just in fun. Y oh Y can't you take it that way.

I'll promise to keep my Xs out of trouble, if you will promise to control your Ys in future.

Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 19 June 2010 11:38:57 PM

benk, thanks. It's useful to have to compose a retort before sending it, much easy than verbal responses.

I'm far more bothered by the damage done to us all by those who make it their point to attack and or blame one gender for most of the things that they think are wrong in the world than by dane's opinion of me.

The women I know are not generally feeble minded or incapable of doing well at any task that's not primarily about physical strength. The men I know are not rapists or interested in dominating a partner or excluding women from active participation in all aspects of life.

People like that do exist but they are not the norm in our society.

Extremists on both sides determined to define the debate in terms of their own issues harm us all unless we actively work to counter their claims.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 20 June 2010 4:51:24 PM

What a frustrating topic, and what absolutely frustrating comments....I don't buy this rubbish.."lets not blame woman"...They are very much to blame! It is not men who have changed. Woman wanted equality. Can't blame them there. BUT, it has gone way,way,way TOO FAR..What has been the cost?..

Broken families, broken men, broken kids, broken society....

Woman are thriving, at an immense cost to the rest of us.

Us men have tried so hard to accommodate what woman want...But guess what, they don't know what they want.

I've seen so many friends; good men, absolutely smashed to bits because their wives left them "because IT JUST WASN"T ENOUGH"...These are men that treated their wives well, helped her live her dream, looked after their kids, worked hard and were fantastic role models to their kids...

....The dream these women had when they were young didn't turn out to actually be what they wanted...No problem, I can do whatever I want...For I am Woman..Even the family counselor told me I can do whatever I want! It's about me! Don't worry about the kids or the man that committed to me...I have the right to do whatever I want....

Then after absolutely destroying many, many lives these same woman declare "there are no good men"...I'm not surprised these newly single guys aren't lining up for another go...Especially after being dragged through a gob smackingly biased court, receiving an AVO because she and the system that stopped him seeing his kids made him so angry he needed one....

This problem is huge...AND despite woman finding everyone else to blame. It is THEIR fault...

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 20 June 2010 8:43:16 PM

billy why not blame the men who abuse spouses and the men who don't do the right thing by ex's and kid's who create the stereotypes those women who abuse the system rely on?

I'm sick of men being blamed for all the world's ill's when it's blatantly obvious that both genders have been involved in creating the social conditions which create those ill's. I think women also have good cause to be sick of being blamed for it all.

Playing the blame game against one gender just perpetuates a war that does none of us any good. Just as we have both known men who's lives have left because it was just not enough I've known women who's lives have been smashed to bit's by partners running multiple affairs or who treat wife and children as a ticklist on a life inventory. That item is ticked off, no further effort required. men and women are both capable of an utter lack of consideration for partners.

Are you as harsh about men who don't take marriage vows seriously as you are regarding women who treat those vows lightly?

If it's all the fault of women then what is the accountability for men who don't do the right thing? If men are also accountable then why is it all the fault of women?

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 20 June 2010 9:16:53 PM

All good points R0bert. In my circles however I have mainly seen men as the overwhelming victims of "the system"... In the cases where the woman is the victim she has such a massive network of friends, family and court bias that she ends up by far being the better off in terms of asset allocation, time with the kids and social standing....

What springs to mind is when guys let their family/wife down it is no surprise...He was always going to do it. You can predict it from the kind of guy he is...On the flip side. When woman do it, it seems to me, more a brain snap....Or change of personality/what she wants in life... Don't know the significance of this..Just my observations..

I am so disillusioned, but have a very clear view of what's going on for men because of the modern woman and the society that backs her with such disgraceful bias......

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 20 June 2010 10:01:39 PM

Well said, R0bert - it takes two to tango, but only one to not. Doesn't matter which gender, really.

billythekid - you seem a bit one-eyed about this stuff. Are you recently single, perchance?

Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 20 June 2010 10:19:54 PM

Billy I started a thread on the general discussion area recently on Men's Sheds and other initiatives. Stuff being done to support men http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3734&page=1

So far positive contributions have being overwhelmingly from women.
There are things being done to help men from a number of different tacks. I found MRA to be a massive help at a time when I really needed some help (primarily run by a women by the way). Initiatives like Men's Sheds are helping some to network. There are a variety of health initiatives, groups and individuals recognising that models used to support women may not be the best for men etc.

There are problems and things that don't work well, I think that's accepted by all. I've made my views on bias in anti-DV initiatives, CSA and the family law system well known here over a number of years. Not a view that's accepted by all but that's life.

What does not help efforts to fix the problem's is those who polarise the debate. The maths may not be exact but it's close enough to say that for every argument you can put blaming women for problems there is a similar one that highlights men's roles in the same issue. Blaming just one side may make some feel good and it may even give some short term advantage if that get's enough momentum but overall it harms us all.

There are also benefits to the changes which have taken place. Other than personal choice people are rarely forced to stay in abusive relationships or keep children in those environments. I think that men generally now feel much freer than they used to taking on care responsibilities for their children (including leave from work to care for sick children etc). Those willing to learn from poor choices in a partner first time round may find themselves in a whole lot better place once the trauma of separation and divorce is over by making some different choices later.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Monday, 21 June 2010 7:38:44 AM

RObert is the voice of reason on this. The blame game could go on forever. Individuals will sometimes leave their spouses for a variety of reasons some selfish some not. Clearly a person who leaves a relationship does so due to disatisfaction with their lot.

One question we should ask is why the increase in marriage breakdown? Are we all becoming too selfish and uncompromising in relationships. For a long term commitment some sacrifices have to be made; sacrifice is a dirty word for some. Do we expect perfection when perfection is never achievable?

Like billythekid we can all produce examples of discrimination and up until recently child custody and support issues have been weighted towards women, generally because they have been the main caregiver, but this is changing.

These issues cannot be resolved on the basis of gender, but have to be done on a case-by-case basis. We are all ultimately individuals we are not only to be judged on the basis of gender.

Posted by pelican, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:26:53 AM

One eyed? You bet I am...I've observed the world for a long time and can categorically say that it is by far the petty whims and fantasies of woman that are breaking families up..

yeah, yeah, yeah there are violent men and abusive men and men that aren't (and were never going to be) good fathers or husbands....

And yes I was recently (3 years) absolutely f%$#@%$ over by the system and a woman who I gave everything to....I gave her everything she could expect from the man she married...

She decided she liked the guy at work more than me. Thought she'd simply swap men. i.e. my kids, my home, my wife...Just swap men...Society has told her that's okay...Some of the opinions on this forum tell her that's okay....Morning, noon and nightime TV tell that's okay..

You know the crazy thing is mutual friends see what she did as crazy...(of course that's only what they tell me...they wouldn't dare tell her that because that would hurt her feelings).... But then some mates wives have since done exactly the same thing...NONE OF THEM ARE ANY HAPPIER...but have left so, so much misery in their wake...Seems the grass wasn't greener..it also seems it is the constant pursuit of happiness that woman are seeking externally that is failing them. We (kids and men) are collateral damage.

Pls read my next post also...got carried away and went over word limit..

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:45:46 AM

One mate went to court just last week...I cried when he was telling me the outcome; A beautiful man who is now a shadow of who he was.. .kid's are old enough to not be considered in terms of assets...They both earn about the same...Her super is FAR SUPERIOR (pension plan that unbelievably wasn't considered..)...The magistrate awarded her 80% of the assets after her barrister produced documents of a broken arm she sustained 20 years ago. He had never previously been accused of it. He has no fight left. He cannot go back to court, I can see it in his face; it would kill him....Had he known this was going to be presented in court he could have taken any number of people to say how she broke her arm......Regardless, what I don't understand is HOW IS IT RELEVANT to the division of the assets?...this cost him about $500k at the age of 43...

One eyed? Yes, and very, very bitter too...I had to fight an AVO in court after she punched ME...Police will simply slap one on the guy just to calm things down..Depending on your career, these things can destroy your life (even more than your wife did) ...Fair huh?

You know Dr Phil said something like "overwhelmingly the vast majority of assaults occur after separation" He then said something like "system needs to ensure these men are incarcerated prior to this occurring"....This is the first time I have ever disagreed with anything the man has said.....What about "the system needs to be changed to be fairer to men"?

You could say these men have been peaceful their whole lives until EVERYTHING he ever worked towards had been taken from him, ripped to bits, chewed up and spat out....Then we'll poke him with a stick by keeping his kids from him, financially crippling him, accuse him of things he has not done, and turn our very liberal friends against him....

Perhaps we should be apportioning blame (and i guess therefore some kind of responsibility), as what we are collectively doing AND encouraging is clearly NOT WORKING!

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:46:35 AM

billythekid
I understand how you feel based on your personal experiences and it is difficult to separate the personal from the debate.

However your story about your friend being a broken man has happened to women. Do you think it is only women who leave?

Friend I know was left by her husband for a young girl. His reason for leaving - he at 45 did not want to be tied down by family life and while he was still young wanted to 'find himself'. Hardly saw the kids, left his job to start a business with good ways to hide money - so no financial support was ever forthcoming (except to buy kids expensive presents but not a care about where food was coming from), she lived for a while on SMP then got a part time job, and was self-supporting but it was not easy. The only thing that kept her going was the love for her kids. Luckily she later met a lovely man and has been with him for over 10 years. During this whole time she never once dissed her ex in front of the kids. They were 6 and 10 years when he left and the youngest never really got over it.

Many women find they leave an abusive husband (to wife and kids) only to discover the Court has allowed him access to the children because abuse is so difficult to prove. The risks and dangers and fear about safety of the kids is heart wrenching for these women.

It doesn't matter who leaves, ultimately it has to be what is best for the kids.

It is all very well to say yes there are men that abuse and should never be parents but there is also a bias in the Court when a disastrous decision by a Judge could lead to horrific outcome.

Posted by pelican, Monday, 21 June 2010 10:33:54 AM

I'm with you billthkid.

We have this enormous women's industry costing us millions of dollars a year to skew society against men. There are only two genders: if you discriminate for one you by definition discriminate against the other. Feminism and women's groups have systematically attacked anything that they perceive as a threat to female power.

They will never stop. Girls have long outperformed boys at uni and at school. Women live longer, healthier lives and work less than men. They do better by practically all reliable social indicators (unsurprisingly, not those produced by women's industry groups). Yet have you ever heard one feminist say a man has ever got a raw deal? Have you ever heard a woman blame a woman for anything?

Have you ever heard a women's group who supported a false alligation come out and apologise to a man?

What about my suggestion that women retire later than men. They live longer and cost taxpayers much more in health costs so surely they would want to pay their fair share. Surely splitting the 6 year difference and have women retiring 3 years later than men would be fair.

Then we get fools like R0bert and severin. R0bert doesn't want the debate 'polarized'. Women have all the power in relationships and can destroy a man at will yet R0bert doesn't want us polarized. If only we all had such perspicuity (he must be an academic). Severin is a card too. She seems to think something on the ABC about women to be credible. What next!

Posted by dane, Monday, 21 June 2010 4:24:56 PM

Otokonoko,

I'm not surprised you were replaced with a woman. Women see men as a threat to their power structures. This is especially so in the social services. Here, they can manipulate vulnerable boys who have never had a male role model with their perverse notions of masculinity. Where masculinity is seen as something threatening, something that needs to be repressed, modified and improved upon. Where everything must be verbalised and discussed ad nauseum.

Of course, when they fail they will blame the crisis in masculinity on men.

Posted by dane, Monday, 21 June 2010 4:57:34 PM

dane,

What exactly do you mean when you say that women "work less than men"?

Posted by Poirot, Monday, 21 June 2010 6:22:44 PM

Thanks for explaining, billythekid. While it's understandable that you're still bitter and twisted about the failure of your marriage, blaming women in general for your situation will only extend your suffering. I know, I've been there - a couple of times.

Very few relationship breakdowns are entirely the fault of just one partner. Going back to legally apportioning blame - as Warwick Marsh and apparently you want - wouldn't do anything at all to assuage the hurt that people inevitably feel under the circumstances of divorce, and indeed could make it harder for the kids, if there are any.

The good news is that you make the best of your situation and make some changes in yourself so that you can avoid repeating your mistakes. I know that too from personal experience.

dane - you certainly appear to experiencing a crisis in your masculinity. Why do you blame it on women?

Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 21 June 2010 7:11:38 PM

Victimhood is alive and well.

There is no reasoning with some people. You go on about all these awful things women are doing and this nefarious women's industry that is busily working behind the scenes to bring down the male gender. Meanwhile you are quite happy to stick your heads in the sand or plug your fingers in your ears and say no..no..no, I don't want to know about the fact that a huge proportion of the most powerful and wealthiest positions in the world are held by men.

Personally I don't care if they are, but please don't blame women for what has not worked in your lives.

If you look deep enough I think you might still be able to find some remnants of rational thinking. The only people you hurt by these thoughts are yourselves and you deny any opportunity to rebuild your own lives with another woman that might appreciate what you have to offer if you come to the relationship without bitterness.

I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing anyone but really you just should listen to yourselves.

Posted by pelican, Monday, 21 June 2010 7:51:46 PM

CJ, pelican well said.

A marriage bust up can be a rough time. It can be tough to do the self analysis necessary to make changes if an ex has been doing the analysis for you.

The thing that sticks out is that those on both sides who want to blame the other side perpetuate the problem rather than help to solve it.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:14:09 PM

DANE, You imply that men work harder than women. Only people who have never experienced the day to day 24hour care of small children and babies make that statement. Ask any new parents and they will tell you that they were absolutely astounded and exhausted by the sheer amount of work involved in caring for a new baby. Add toddlers to the mix as well and the job doubles in intensity.

In a few of the cases that I have heard stated here and in a lot of cases in my own experience, when the children arrive the men don’t adequately pull their weight (I’m not saying all), and that’s when the women often leave. I’ve seen it and heard it many times.

One of my daughters has four children from age 10years down to 3years and she has always worked full time in much higher paying jobs than her husband although he has a Uni degree. Yet she constantly has to get behind him to pull his weight with the children. Any one who works and has to come home and look after young children often has another four hours of work at least,ahead of them. For you to say that men should retire because they work harder than women shows that you have no understanding of the pressures women face at all.

Do you look forward to your week-ends at home Dane? Well my daughter says she hates week-ends because of the work load with the children and much prefers to be at work. I have heard a lot of other women with children say that too.

One of the well known hosts on one of the morning shows I think her name is Lisa Wilkinson , once said on T.V. that she just broke down and cried one morning from the sheer exasperation of trying to get all her children ready for school . Until you have been there and experienced that kind of stress with young children you just don’t understand

Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:28:14 PM

HASBEEN,

Thank you for your good-natured response to my X and Y Chromosome post.

You may do whatever you so desire with your X Chromosome but as a female I do not have a Y Chromosome only a double X but maybe your reply was tongue in cheek.

Or maybe you are a homosexual without a Y Chromosome.

Posted by CHERFUL, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:46:12 PM

Hmmm. I think what CJ, pelican and R0bert are telling me is I need to acknowledge and change so I don't poison my next relationship....

Well there will be no second time around for this guy....If you didn't read between the lines; I really do not like what I have observed women doing in this world...

What should I change...That i did everything i could to communicate well, I was a good husband and good father....She simply went with someone who falsely offered her excitement in a mundane relationship..Let's face it, kids, work, kids, work, dinner, kids is not exciting...But, it is my experience that men will stick it out for their family...Woman with their new found freedom will attack until he leaves or she will leave...Too many years as she put it...Very compatible, just too many years...

So the change I'll make is not get in to a long term relationship again.....I'm still a good looking guy, so I'll be the stereotypical "there are no good men anymore"....Exactly the guy woman have made me....Thanks for listening...This 350 word limit is prohiitve!

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 21 June 2010 9:46:14 PM

The scientific fact is that its a mans world, so man up and do some man things, such as urinating all over the place and scratching one's nuts.

I dunno if there's an actual crisis or not, or how such a crisis could be measured anyway, but there does seem to be a tendency to overcompensate where there is a chance to exercise exaggeration... Much the same way Australians visiting England call everybody "cobber/digger/maaate" and say "strewth/crikey/G'day" just in case somebody does not read the writing on the T shirt or recognise the flag... There is a tendency for younger men to overdo the female anatomy jokes, and overdo the F-word and C-word as well.

Its starting younger and younger, there are less and less male teachers in schools. The male teachers there are left, possibly are not great examples of masculinity, poor henpecked wrecks just trying to see out their time and collect their super in between vexatious sexual harassment claims.

I guess it is a pendulum kind of thing, in the past minorities got a hard time so we have to let them have a free kick now. Once we collectively man up against the female/gay oppressors, and reclaim the power of cabanossi, things will be fine once more. Unfortunately, that will be in 326 years.

Posted by PatTheBogan, Monday, 21 June 2010 10:02:10 PM

Pelican, if you have not seen what Billy is talking about, you've had your eyes closed, or agree with injustice.

I've seen it many times. She has grown up with a dream. Happy family, a man & woman, with a couple of kids, lovely house nice car, & furniture. They are all happy, & smiling in the picture, but strangely the man has no face.

At mid 20s she's getting a bit worried, no prince charming has appeared. Sensibly she settles for the best she can get. He's a bit boring, no real spark or excitement, but she moulds him into that picture, even if the face still doesn't show.

He doesn't know how it happened, but he is a happy family man, putting everything into making her & the kids happy. He's still boring with no dream or goal of his own, but he is content living hers.

She grows disillusioned with this dream. It does not give her the happiness she thought it wood, & she still can't see his face, he's just "the husband". 10, 15, or 20 years later she realises that if she plays her cards right, she can get most of the assets, even his future income, but get rid of this faceless man, & try to find a more fulfilling dream.

She doesn't find happiness, but destroys him in trying. He thought they were happy. Sure she had been a bit distant, & a little mean of late, but isn't everyone. He can't even try again, it is years before he can afford even a night out.

These are the blokes Billy is on about. Screwed over by first her, then the family court. Like Jim, living on the 23 ft boat he built out of plywood, just before the brake up. It's all he has to show for 18 years. He'd like to drink, but can't afford it.

In 4 years, the second kid reaches whatever age it is, so he can start paying less. Then he will probably be able to drink himself into an early grave.

Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 21 June 2010 10:39:40 PM

Sorry about that Cherful, I have always have been hopeless about medical stuff.

I always reckoned you couldn't catch something if you had never heard of it, or did not know what the symptoms were, so I've always avoided doctors.

I'll try not to get my Xs & Ys, & things mixed up again.

Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 21 June 2010 11:33:15 PM

Hasbeen, billythekid and dane

We are all adults and you certainly don't need me to tell you how to live your life that is for sure. But if I can add a few more comments into the mix.

Do you think it right or even healthy, to use one bad experience with a woman to basically right off an entire gender. I have seen women do this as well, it is not one-sided. Women who have been left when they had no idea there was a problem and had been a supportive and good wife, women who were abused physically or belittled by their husbands and left with lifelong scars and a negative attitude about all men as bullies and fiends.

Clearly our experiences shape the way we think, but oftentimes hurt and a sense of betrayal destroys rational thinking about the opposite sex. It is human to want to blame someone - it is much easier to blame others than look inward at ourselves. Relationship breakdown takes two parties, faults usually on both sides in all but unusual cases.

Posted by pelican, Monday, 21 June 2010 11:44:27 PM

Pelican, I have never seen it happen in the way you mention, although I've heard of it, & don't doubt it cuts that way too, & probably often.

As a bit of a boring bloke myself, perhaps I've mixed manily with those blokes who were used as I mentioned.

In my younger days I noticed that the "nice" blokes went home from the pub alone, [unless some bird picked THEM up], where as the slick bloke, with far from wholesome intentions, walked out with the living doll.

Out here in the sticks there are a lot of older blokes, living mostly alone. With some, the wife spends most of their time, in town with the kids, & grandkids, only coming "home" for a night or 2 now & then. Others are struggling with large debts, after the family court awarded her half the farm, when she left to be nearer the kids.

This is particularly galling, when it is a family farm he inherited, before he met her. Some of these blokes just can't part with a farm that's been in the family for generations, & have to bust a gut, into their 70s to pay the lady out.

I don't know if it's a crisis in masculinity, or a crisis in our whole synthetic life style today. Many spend a lot of money on entertainment, trying to convince themselves that they have it made.

I could never have done that, my money was reserved for something much more useful, like a racing car, or a yacht.

Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:52:51 AM

Billy "telling me is I need to acknowledge and change so I don't poison my next relationship"

That's just a bit of the process. I've found things I wish I'd done better the first time round but I also settled for someone who I was not a good match for on values, temperment etc. I suspect that we both had those pictures with the blank faces on it that Hasbeen describes so well. We both seem to be doing a lot better with current partners than we did with each other.

There is some really ugly stuff happening though manipulation of scheme's put in place supposedly to help kid's, I had a look into that abyss and it can be the stuff of nightmares.

The problems won't be fixed by attacking all women or ignoring the cases where it's men who do the wrong thing. If you want those women who are not doing the wrong thing themselves to listen and support fairer outcomes for men then show fairness and support better outcomes for women who get done over by an ex who knows out to play the system.

People rarely respond well when they are under a generalised attack.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 6:42:01 AM

I agree with your last post R0bert.

Overwhelmingly women leave men (proven stat...I'll find a source when i have more time and post it..). It's 5 to 1 I believe...That means, by my maths, woman are making the decision to terminate about 42% of ALL marriages.....

So tell us pelican what are men doing wrong? What is it that women are so dissapointed with? What did they expect from a long term relationship that men seemingly cannot give? They are clearly not finding the happiness they are seeking either in or out of the relationship with the father of their kids....

And how do we fix it.....

Posted by billythekid, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 10:20:02 AM

billythekid

Well, I don't know for sure, each case is different but here are some thoughts.

It may have something to do with the fact that women in unhappy relationships are now able to leave given greater participation in the workforce. Even a poor living might be preferable than remaining in an unhappy marriage particularly if there is abuse.

Men and women really want the same things - respect, love and companionship in a partnership. If those things decline and appear the unhappiness irreversible the marriage probably won't last. There must come a point of no return - so never leave things too late or unsaid.

For some men and women the reason may be simply the grass looks greener on the other side when the prospect of a new and exciting relationship presents itself. What most people don't realise is if they put that same zeal and care into the marriage it would also be worth saving in many cases but not all.

Sometimes people just marry the wrong person for all sorts of reasons.

I can only speak from experience in talking with other women. In most relationship breakdown it has been the man who has left, but in those where the women instigated the divorce it was due to their husband's infidelity or a feeling of no longer being loved or spending time together. The pressures of work these days often come into it, especially if both are working long hours and travelling away. Many men find it difficult to show their feelings so communication may be a problem.

Cont/...

Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:24:15 PM

Cont/...

I did a Google on divorce stats and why women leave and found this:

http://www.essortment.com/all/genderrolesoc_rivr.htm

A quote:

"Men and women have been socialized to perform certain gender specific roles. These roles have been changing at a relatively rapid pace, but the values that surround these roles have not been changing at the same rate."

That quote from the link probably explains it better than I can, much of the article seems to make sense despite the slightly dodgy side links.

How to fix it?

That is the million dollar question. It is not just about marriage any more but about human expectations and the rise of individual self interest. How we fix that is anyone's guess. Maybe make it harder to get married in the first place without some form of discussion although that sounds a bit nanny state and big brother.

I don't have an anwser. Do you have any ideas?

Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 12:24:39 PM

poirot,

Women work more part-time jobs, and for fewer years than men. It's politically incorrect to say so but there are very few women who want to work after fifty. Many women feel 'tired' and 'entitled' to rest. The problem is they are going to live for more than 30 years still. It's also a well known fact that health care costs grow exponentially with age. So we have a situation where men work longer and harder and then die earlier (thus saving society substantial health costs).

Men don't like to talk about it because they enjoy being the provider and supporting a family but at some point we need to have an honest debate.

Then we get Cherful's tired old cannard about how hard it is to raise small children. Blah, blah, blah. What rubbish. Most men now work full-time and then come home to help with the kids. I know women with small kids who do absolutely nothing at home. No cooking, cleaning nothing. They reckon their job is to look after the kids and then when the hubby gets home he has to cook and clean. I would put money on it that you would be one of these women Cherrful. Bleating on constanstly but doing nothing.

Pelican you are right that individual examples don't necessarily correlate to a whole gender. But the systemic institutional biase against men is a commonality. Not all women are vindictive. If they break up they only want a fair separation and then move on. Unfortunately, there is a significant minority of women who become extremely vindictive if a relationship fails. They can destroy their partner at will. All the power is in the women's hands and there is no natural justice for men.

NB: Cherful: I didn't force your daughter to have children so don't blame me if she is unhappy. Why didn't she stop at one or not have any at all? Is she responsible for her own decisions or not?

Posted by dane, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 2:03:16 PM

dane,

Oh, I see - you are referring to work that is conducted outside the family home for a wage.
No doubt there are men and women who fail to pull their weight in both spheres - work and home - however, I think you dismiss too lightly "work" that is not undertaken outside the home.
As to your comment to Cherful about the hard work involved in raising a child - your "blah, blah, blah. What rubbish" says more about you than it does about the reality of such an undertaking. Have you ever simultaneously raised small children, kept house and worked outside the home? Many, many women do this as a matter of course these days and are exhausted from their efforts.
I choose to work at home and raise my children. My day is very full and very satisfying - but perhaps not the sort of mind-numbing wage slave work that you seem to think is the only sort that matters.
You obviously believe that work carried out in the home has negligible value to society.
I disagree.

Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 5:08:07 PM

Pelican

Most divorces are initiated by wives and the most plausible theory I have heard about this is that they tend to keep the kids. Walking away from kids is much harder than leaving a dud marriage. Similarly, those few women who left husbands several decades ago led a fairly dim life. Today, it is possible for her to have a reasonable life without the hubby.

I am more concerned by the number of breakups that turn toxic, rather than the raw number of divorces. Limiting the free kicks given to women who choose to use them might be a good place to start.

Dane

It is hard to generalise about division of labour as there is a large spectrum amongst both genders. What concerns me is the stereotype of the over-worked housewife. It leads to alot of women who feel entitled to alot of me time, without stopping to consider whether she really pulls her weight.

Posted by benk, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 6:38:46 PM

At our saturday night bar-b-que one of the blokes wondered, out loud, [very brave of hin], how his 5 hours of mowing, edging, & weeding was supposed to be fun, but her 2 hours of sticking some washing in a machine, then moving it to the drier, with 1.5 hours of TV watching during this chore, was considered hard work.

The unholy uproar, from the ladies, that greated this little gem led to the blokes deciding to wander off to somewhere quiter. This was achieved completely hidden by the cloud of indignation.

Nothing like a community bar-b-que to bring out the best in people.

Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 7:18:18 PM

Hasbeen,
You hit the nail on the head. The problem is that many women actually do think that 5 hours of male work is equal to them putting on the washing and then complaining about it for the next 4.5 hours. They really do feel they are that important. The proof is in their completely irrational response to anyone who challenges them. Look at Poiret's response. She went from my claim there is a substantial minority of women who are lazy to extrapolate about entirely unrelated things.

Poiret
"You obviously believe that work carried out in the home has negligible value to society."
This is another female cannard. You are trying to equate all women's work with all men's work regardless of individual circumstances i.e. the laziest and most indolent woman with the most industrious male. In any case, I wish you the best of health but if you ever do have a health crisis, I hope the doctor doesn't treat you like just another load of washing. And lastly: it was feminists who devalued women's role in the house so don't blame men for that.

Posted by dane, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 8:35:14 PM

dane,
I don't see this as a men verses women conundrum - I see it as an imperative dictated by modern consumer society - Everybody is encouraged to get out there into the workplace...work...get paid...rush back out and spend the money (preferably before you've actually earned it), etc, etc, etc.
I'm not trying to equate one type of work with another...that , in my opinion is a useless exercise. Most occupations are valuable in one way or another. Don't just blame the feminists. The whole of industrial society colluded to push women out of the house.

Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 9:01:15 PM

The grey divorce trend is interesting. I don't think there is any use blaming one gender or the other, it is simply the case that more people and especially women resent the passing of the years and believe they will be re-born and have a fresh chance at life through sloughing off old what's his/her name.

Posted by Cornflower, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 9:03:55 PM

dane, you really and sincerely believe that men valued the traditional women's role in the home? From Hasbeen's BBQ, it doesn't appear so, only more fodder for humour.

I think this thread should have been titled The Femininity Crisis as clearly no-one seems to know what it is that women are meant to do or be. Everyone has a different idea about the women's role - do the washing...don't do the washing...stay at home...don't stay at home...do the housework...don't do the housework...go to work...don't go to work...look after your man...don't look after your man.

Issues of the home are between a man and his wife to sort out and what suits one couple won't suit another. Complaining about how easy women have it and how hard done by men are is a bit rich given many women now work outside the home and come home to more work and childcare responsibilities, hopefully shared with her husband, but sometimes not.

It comes down to individuals not genders, that is really all I have left to say on this topic. It is up to all of us to be the best person we can be and to treat people with respect regardless of biology. For me anyway, it really is that simple.

Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 22 June 2010 9:06:12 PM

Pelican

Your post is the definitive last word on this overworked topic.

I had to laugh though, when you wrote >> Issues of the home are between a man and his wife to sort out << Imagine the hysteria if you had written "between a woman and her husband". I imagine an outbreak of psychological meltdowns among some posters to OLO.

In conclusion, to judge from the difficulty a few men have in treating women as equals - that IS the crisis. As you say the title does not express the sentiments of many who have contributed here.

>> It is up to all of us to be the best person we can be and to treat people with respect regardless of biology. <<

Exactly.

Posted by Severin, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 9:35:46 AM

Severin wrote "to judge from the difficulty a few men have in treating women as equals - that IS the crisis"

I found the tone of your entire post as patronising and demeaning....Can you not read that the men that have commented about negative experiences with woman, have expressed they feel they have been treated poorly by both woman and the system?...I've read most of the posts and haven't seen much relating to men not wanting to treat woman evenly...What most of us men are saying it'd have to come our way a very long way before it was equal again....

You quoted pelican who said "It is up to all of us to be the best person we can be and to treat people with respect regardless of biology". You then obnoxiously wrote "Exactly".

Do you not think we all feel this way..... BUT.....don't feel that's how we've been treated?

AND, if you're not a moderator who are you to tell us "Your post is the definitive last word on this overworked topic"...I think you are being confronted with some truths that may be difficult for you to digest or take ownership of...

It's not easy to tell what gender Severin is by name, but man I can tell by the comments...

Posted by billythekid, Wednesday, 23 June 2010 12:44:08 PM

This is a very well presented media release from the Fatherhood Foundation. I hope that it gets a good response

Posted by John E Flanagan, Friday, 25 June 2010 10:46:03 AM

What an interesting discussion. Still think Lillian summed it up best in the very first post, though.

In my view, masculinity has always been in crisis, it's just taken thousands of years for the violence and misuse of power to be called into account.

Women have a wonderful opportunity to help shape the future men of our world, and so must also bear some responsibility for the failings of the past.

As a mother, I am doing everything I can to help my beautiful male child grow to become a useful and engaged member of our society.

I am hoping that with an unselfish and optimistic approach, I can help him become as considerate, responsible, masculine - and loving! - as my own husband.

Unfortunately, our current public culture is one of a combative, manipulative and negative debate. Our children are carefully schooled in just such a culture.

Men are granted a great deal of freedom in our society. They should therefore step up and take collective responsibility for the 'grey areas' of their own sexual and sporting cultures. Men must hold themselves accountable for the general denigrative attitudes towards women, sex and even responsible living in general.

The positive aspects of male culture, of which there are many, should be celebrated by all. Unfortunately, we as a society do not applaud our wonderful men nearly enough... and that is very definitely part of the problem.

Posted by floatinglili, Saturday, 26 June 2010 12:00:13 AM

floatinglili

>> Unfortunately, we as a society do not applaud our wonderful men nearly enough... <<

Which ones? Shane Warne, Wayne Carey?

Or

Men like Professor Patrick McGorry? No, he was made an Officer of the Order of Australia (quite deservedly, no doubt.

Perhaps it should be the vast majority of unknown men who care for the people in their lives, volunteer as carers, firefighters, and other community services. Not unlike what the vast majority of women do in their every day lives.

A man like a postal delivery man who repaired my wooden steps just because he wanted to - no catch, no expectation, just wanted to help. I don't imagine this particular man as having any masculinity crisis.

Posted by Severin, Saturday, 26 June 2010 9:40:41 AM

Yeah, exactly!
Like the fabulous delivery man who painstakingly moved four massive pots into the back of my yard, because he wanted to, and because he had time to kill before the next delivery.

Great men really do make the world go around, just as much - if not more - than women.

In an era where more women than men go to university... but more men own and lead businesses, men are still in a position to create incredible good.

My husband's ability (in the female-dominated workplace) to rise above the petty and trivial aspects of office politics, for the greater good, is inspirational, and I see this as a somewhat masculine trait.

Of course, as with any discussion of the this type, broad sweeping generalisations fall over because gender is only an aspect of the individual.

I do find, and this is only anecdotal, that mothers tend to allow much rougher play amongst boys, with less emphasis on personal responsibilities. Perhaps 'Boys will be boys' is not an adequate parenting reponse in modern times

Posted by floatinglili, Saturday, 26 June 2010 1:40:17 PM

It is reported to me that mothers who are members of mothers clubs, spend a lot of their time denigrating their husbands, the fathers of their children.

Another friend told me how some of her married female friends treat their marriage like a business proposition. He earns the money so they can enjoy the type of luxurious lifestyle that they want to have.

lillian writes that our society celebrates macho, bullying violent men. Yet a man can can be macho without being a bully or violent and the last time I looked, violent men are usually punished by the law in some way.

Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 27 June 2010 8:38:10 AM

I'm so glad I'm no longer married! Modern woman run this world (I don't mean as per J Gillard...That's cool; she'll do a great job! I mean law bias, attitudes, magazines, the media direction, men pandering to woman)and it's not much fun trying to be someone/something I'm not...I pity my boys being raised most of their time at their mothers' house (because of course the judge awarded her more custody).

Yes I agree floatinglili, boys should never be allowed to play rough..They should sit in the corner with their hands firmly by their sides waiting for directions from the girls and the female teacher.

The term "boys will be boys should never be used in modern society"...We'd much rather they behave like girls...

What a ridiculous argument this is. Boys are boys, and men are men despite it being "a modern world". We have never tried to change who woman are and never will...THAT is the difference. Women are seeking something we cannot give and they will not find. They are set to fail. Previous posts noted "real man fixed my step"..or "painstakingly moved four massive pots"...So you want the services of "real men" but not the masculinity? I'm confused; and that's what this thread is about... What fairytale did woman get this deluded image of men from?

These are the first generations of boys being predominately raised by woman...As one of very few male teachers, I can predict, by behaviour and mannerisms, which boys don't have active fathers.

It's just occurred to me, this problem is perpetual...That is, as men pretend to be something they are not and raise their girls to expect something different to who men actually are, the more these girls will be disappointed when they marry a man. God help society....

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 27 June 2010 9:28:09 AM

Boys will be boys, men will be men, and billythekid will be single until he sheds his antediluvian attitude to women.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 27 June 2010 10:02:09 AM

"antediluvian" Please explain.....

In fact I'm not single. I have a stunning girlfriend who is 13 years younger...She wants to marry me! BUT, see, I hesitate because I fear that she will do what I have seen so, so, so many woman do...Find someone else that they then think is different to all other men....

I'm no different to any other man and neither are the new guys these woman find...

So before patronising me with ridiculous words this articulate guy has never heard of....Have a look at what woman are doing to men..I mean it....Consider for one minute what woman have done to our entire gender...

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 27 June 2010 10:20:34 AM

Billy again the question. Why is you attitude any better (or more justifiable) than the attitude of those people who blame men for all the worlds woes?

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 27 June 2010 10:31:18 AM

billythekid: << As one of very few male teachers, I can predict, by behaviour and mannerisms, which boys don't have active fathers. >>

So you're a teacher? That's a bit of a worry, especially since you have a limited vocabulary and apparently don't know how to use a dictionary.

<< I have a stunning girlfriend who is 13 years younger...She wants to marry me! >>

I bet you haven't regaled her with your theory that our society's problems are caused by women.

<< I'm no different to any other man >>

Nonsense. I'm a man, I know lots of men and very few of them are as obviously misogynist as you are. I know you think you have good reason to be bitter and twisted - hopefully one day you'll have a good hard look at yourself and own your own problems, rather than blame them on "Modern woman".

Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 27 June 2010 10:56:23 AM

R0bert, I'm not that familiar with the "attitude of those people who blame men for all the worlds woes"...

What I'm familiar with is the propensity of woman to see the grass as greener..Only to tragically find it's not..In other words, there's only a few woman i know that hate all men...Most woman I know just hate their husbands, and eventually seek other men (greener grass). In addition I am seeing a lot of men that hate all woman...There are so many of us that have been crucified by them...There are even more that have seen unbelievable examples of other men being crucified...

In addition to my previous post CJ Morgan....It seems I can have any of these NEWLY single woman......After having f^%$#^ over their husbands and family, there are millions of them still looking..They're everywhere, all dolled up, going to the gym, getting plastic surgery...(tragic really), can't find good men apparently..What was wrong with the guy they made vows to at the alter?

He's along side me, taking his pick of the woman that dumped someone else equally as good...What a funny world....

Do society a favour and when your friend comes and tells you they are thinking of leaving their husband for what's his name..Don't tell her "you deserve to be happy"...Tell her to "get happy with the hubbie, it is not he that's changed".....And then if she chooses to go ahead anyway...Don't encourage her to kick this poor guy that is already on the ground bleeding..THIS IS MY OVERWHELMING EXPERIENCE....

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:12:48 AM

"Consider for one minute what woman have done to our entire gender..."

What have women done to an entire gender? Women have done nothing but fight for equal respect in a society that very much demeaned the role and abilities of women. The only negative about feminism that I can surmise is that the idea of 'choice' got a bit lost along the way and women or men who wish to SAH to raise children often have the role diminished to further a work agenda (not only related to feminism).

Was billythekid out championing woman's rights when women were being told to stay with an abusive husband because that is your lot, like it or lump it. Were you there when senior female bank tellers earned less than the boys they supervised only because they are women. I don't think so.

I guess most of the men supporting this nonsense think that was okay. That is all feminism was about. In relation to Family Law it is partly down to feminism that men are now seen as equal partners in parenting arrangements, before that it was viewed very much as a child's place is with the mother.

Posted by pelican, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:20:39 AM

Personal insults huh CJ Morgan...

Not a current teacher, EX teacher! Couldn't get away from it fast enough...

If you can't comprehend from things I have written that men are getting a raw deal then perhaps the use of really clever words is simply a facade for you and you're not actually that bright!....I choose to simply write it as it is, and would not seek the meaning of a word some pompous twit has provided to imply his intellect....

Masculinity debate indeed....Embarrassing

Posted by billythekid, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:25:21 AM

Pelican

You beat me to the punch, well almost because I also was struck by BTK's comment:

>>> "Consider for one minute what woman have done to our entire gender...(?)" <<<

But my first thought was:

Gave birth.

BTK

You have a gorgeous young girlfriend and you are complaining about women? You are indeed in crisis. One of your own making.

Posted by Severin, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:33:56 AM

Severin: << Gave birth >>

LOL.

billythekid - if you are an "EX teacher", why did you write your claim to be a male teacher in the present tense. Also, the word "antediluvian" is a perfectly ordinary term among educated people. I certainly hope you weren't an English teacher.

<< Masculinity debate indeed....Embarrassing >>

Indeed. You should be embarrassed.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 27 June 2010 11:44:52 AM

Erm, billy, you were so enthusiastic about your silly rant that you didn't read my posts properly.
I merely suggested that 'boys will be boys' is not an adequate response for parenting, in and of itself.

I read in some silly newspaper article that boy children are much less likely to be kissed and hugged than female children!
For many male children, childhood is something of an emotional desert, and that may well be the problem.

The fact that you describe your girlfriend as 13 years younger and stunning is in itself a little telling.
I have met many frustrated men like you, and the sign on your head is screaming 'avoid'.
Unfortunately, your girlfriend has already committed herself.

It seems to me that a big chip on your shoulder is caused by promiscuity, not women per se.

I have a wonderfully masculine husband, and we really have a fantastic marriage. Do you want a silly box to tick? He is a massive rugby fan, and played himself until he was 35. Now he is permanently physically damaged as a result of the game. A real 'ard man. He is accountable in a way many men are not.

He also has a loving mother, who was always around to give plenty of love and kisses. He loves his mum, and he loves me! Thanks mum, you helped him be the man he is today. His brother (a rugby league tragic) is also a super guy.

Man enough for you? :)

Posted by floatinglili, Sunday, 27 June 2010 12:32:08 PM

BTK: "I have a stunning girlfriend who is 13 years younger...She wants to marry me! BUT, see, I hesitate because I fear that she will do what I have seen so, so, so many woman do..."

Do her a favour and yourself too. Reject her marriage proposal.

She is either too young or too naive to know what she'd be getting into.

Posted by Pynchme, Sunday, 27 June 2010 12:54:53 PM

Why is everyone attacking the guys that express they've had bad experiences with woman?

Gee CJ Morgan, who do you think you are? Should we all be highly educated for our opinions to be valid? So petty.

I don't think he wants another girl Pynchme. I don't think I would either.

How about everyone actually listen to what these guys are saying? This is a masculinity forum, it is the guys that are suffering and it's easy to see why. You woman are nasty.

Posted by Tonny, Sunday, 27 June 2010 4:20:35 PM

Tonny "Why is everyone attacking the guys that express they've had bad experiences with woman?"

Have you misread what those guy's are saying or what others are saying?

It's not the expression regarding bad experiences with women, it's the attacking all women for the actions of some women and seemingly at the same time showing little or no concern for the bad actions of some men that's drawing the fire.

There are posters around who will attack men for saying they have had bad experiences with women, mostly they pop up to support a piece wanting a rollback of changes to child residency on the basis of "protecting children".

Those involved in this thread are not them.

If it helps have a look at a thread I started recently regarding initiatives to support men and see who the posters are who contributed with positive contributions http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=3734

None of the men who regularly attack all feminists (or women in general in some cases) bothered to have any input. Pynchme provided links to a large number of resources, others also chimed in with some useful pieces (relevant to some, not to others).

It's not having had a bad experience with women that's the problem, it's attacking all women for those experiences that's the issue. I don't like it when I read feminist material blaming men for the injustices of the world, nor do I like it when I see women blamed for the downfall of society.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Sunday, 27 June 2010 4:44:23 PM

Tonny
We are listening and we have shown empathy for their experiences but not for the bitterness that ensues, nor the nastiness towards women that is sometimes so on display on this forum.

Many of these men are blaming all women for their own bad luck in relationships as if we are all the same. Judge all of us first as individuals not as a homogenous group. Women are many and varied we do not all think or act the same.

That is the problem with many on this forum - criticise a woman and you are identifying a crisis in masculinity, criticise a man and you are a misandrist. Sheesh...it does wear a bit thin at times.

Posted by pelican, Sunday, 27 June 2010 7:07:06 PM

Feminist Eva Cox, once made this statement in response to male suicide.

<The most reknowned was her response to the question of males committing suicide in far greater numbers than females, when she noted “as least they (men) are doing something right”.>

Admittedly she later retracted her statment, yet the fact is that she made it in the first place.

When the analogy was made about women being uncovered meat, there was a huge hue and cry over that statement, yet when Eva showed little empathy for male suicide rates, the silence was deafening.

Posted by JamesH, Monday, 28 June 2010 7:14:31 AM

Maggie Hamilton wrote an interesting book title "what men dont talk about"

I wonder how many of the female posters have ever read it, or more importantly are 'willing' to read it?

She has also written "What is happening to our boys?"

Posted by JamesH, Monday, 28 June 2010 8:33:06 AM

'Previous posts noted "real man fixed my step"..or "painstakingly moved four massive pots"...So you want the services of "real men" but not the masculinity?'

Yep, the rest of what he's saying is BMS (Bitter Man Syndrome), but there's no denying he's gotcha there!

Oh how the cries of chauvinism would abound if billy had lauded the real women who made him nice meals.

Good to know we have the definitive definition of masculinity. The real men of the world are the ones who selflessly do manual work for women they don't know for no pay.

Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 28 June 2010 9:39:11 AM

Couldn't have said it better Houellebecq.

Bitter, I know, but I reckon I have real reason to be. The female gender (I'm being very cautious with terminology because CJ Morgan is very intelligent...-he told me-...and associates with educated people) have collectively made it really hard to be a man (sob).

Seriously, I have known lots of men that have taken their lives because they can no longer cope.....For me, I have never taken masculinity that seriously...What I do take seriously is the cavalier attitude the female gender has towards marriage, their family, the role of the father, and of course the welfare of their kids (They'll make sure they have long pants on in winter, but will take their father away with little regard). Before anyone attacks me, look at the stats. They don't lie. The female gender (collectively woman) are terminating 42% of marriages. I did the sums myself (see CJ Morgan I'm really smart too, though I don't know what antediluvian means)....

So besides being far too sensitive on this forum, what as woman (yes I know you're a man CJ Morgan, a modern one at that...) have you done to reverse these very destructive trends [they could even affect your sons now and later in life)....].....Do you agree with other woman when they complain about their husbands or do you say " hang on what about this and this and this"? Or when they tell you they are leaving for another man, do you tell them, that is hardly a solution to a problem you have not told your husband existed?

Bitter, you bet...Just like 42% of the male population....

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 28 June 2010 10:05:54 AM

Oh, sorry, you have mistaken me for someone who may be supportive of the rest of your arguments.

Anyone has 100 reasons to be bitter, but as celebrity Peter Endre once said, 'being bitter is like drinking poison and hoping the other person will die.'

>'Do you agree with other woman when they complain about their husbands or do you say " hang on what about this and this and this"?'

Well, I'm one of those annoying people who always plays devils advocate. When my partner tells me about how she sympathises with her friends marriage break-up, I always take the 'hidden' partner's side. The one with no voice in the argument. I know who I'm supposed to sympathise with, but that would be no fun.

The benefit of this is that my partner no longer regales the ins and outs of these dramatic fights between people I don't know or care to know.

I hope you take the hint.

Posted by Houellebecq, Monday, 28 June 2010 10:20:41 AM

billythekid,

Could you enlighten us on who is terminating the other 58% of marriages?

Posted by Poirot, Monday, 28 June 2010 10:27:42 AM

"Could you enlighten us on who is terminating the other 58% of marriages?"...How many months have 28 days? They all do..Some have more.

It is 42% of all marriages woman terminate...Woman terminate marriage at a rate of 5 to 1. Back of envelope maths..50% marriages fail...Woman terminate 42% of all marriages.

I don't have too many friends on here...Is this a masculinity problem that the noisy masses simply drown out the voice of men who feel society and particularly the female gender are being unfair? What's left for some? Depression and suicide.

Attacking me is not an argument...Let's hear what you are doing about any of the problems i have raised, or even if you acknowledge men are getting a raw deal.....Woman HAVE equality, in fact they have far more than equality. They run (metaphorically) society, election results, political direction, the media, the law and courts, our kids, our schools, our work places....

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 28 June 2010 10:45:47 AM

billythekid,

My mistake - I thought you meant 42% of "failed" marriages.

Nevertheless, I believe the posters on this forum are bewildered by the vehemence of your bitterness - if you can't move beyond your intense feelings of animosity toward the female gender, I suspect your future experience of life will be less than it could be.

Posted by Poirot, Monday, 28 June 2010 11:19:52 AM

I agree entirely Poirot...

I wish I knew how...My life experiences have shaped my opinions...Weren't woman bitter and I guess therefore motivated before the necessary reforms a couple of generations ago?...I suggest men are now suffering even more than woman were then...Woman had dreams that were not fulfilled, men presently have their kids ripped from them...How is this any different (cringing hoping I don't go over the top here) from say American slavery where people were stolen, or the Australian stolen generation, or forced adoption back in the day? Man, someone wrote in this forum that woman give birth to kids..Is that the argument is it. Is that the reason men can be dismissed as unimportant regarding kids?....The only way I get through life is by being completely ambivalent to what's happened and where I am going with a broken family that wasn't my choice....Men who can't do that end up in the morgue...I've seen it dozens of times.....Have the knockers on this site actually read what i have written and actually thought through what it would be like to be some of the men I have described? I am bitter because I see these men (and wonder what my options are) dust themselves off, get involved with someone else, only to give away far more than what's fair when they separate. It's not about money...It's about what's fair...And currently, it sure aint fair...

Masculinity IS the problem we are talking about isn't it?

Posted by billythekid, Monday, 28 June 2010 12:35:16 PM

billythekid,

It is true that most of us tend to see things through the lens of things we have experienced.
In your case, it has poisoned your outlook to an entire gender - which for your sake is a shame.
I have an acquaintance who has been treated abominably by his wife, along the lines of your own experience (possibly even worse). He, however, has embraced the support offered by those who care about him - including the women - as he is aware that it is pointless to blame the entire gender for the failings of one of its members.
There will always be failings by members of both genders and it is society's responsibility to get the balance right in dealing with marriage break-ups. Perhaps ,as you point out, the balance has now swung a little too far the other way. (I suggest, however, that for a women to inflict pain so ruthlessly on a man in such a manner it indicates a fault in her individual personality).
On the other hand, My own father gambled and drank to excess and consequently made our lives as small children an utter misery. My mother stayed with him (up to a point) because she felt she had little choice. All my scars re: growing up came from the period when my father's addictions ruled our lives.

Posted by Poirot, Monday, 28 June 2010 2:14:27 PM

billythekid - I think you need to be a bit more honest, both with yourself and others.

<< I have known lots of men that have taken their lives because they can no longer cope.... >>

Really? How many's lots? I suspect you haven't personally known very men at all who've suicided.

<< CJ Morgan is very intelligent...-he told me- >>

No I didn't. I just used an ordinary word that you didn't know and are too ignorant to look up.

As I've said, rather than railing on about how women in general have spoiled your life, you need to have a good hard look at yourself and make some changes, otherwise you're always going to be bitter and twisted.

Since you're determined to reject the good advice that most people here are giving you, perhaps you need to seek the assistance of a professional therapist or counsellor. Despite your self-denial, you are clearly having problems with your masculinity. You need to sort them, otherwise your anger and bitterness could get the better of you.

Some of us here are blokes who've been where you are now, so we know it's possible to address such problems and move on in life as mature adult men, rather than dwelling endlessly on the apparent unfairness of it all.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Monday, 28 June 2010 2:33:15 PM

James H
While I find Eva Cox's straightforward style very refreshing, she has said many stupid things. Cox does not speak for or represent all women. We could spend much wasted time posting derogatory comments made by high profile men, like Sam Newman, about women and vice versa but it means nothing in this conversation. It just reverts the conversation to tit for tat.

BTK
Fact is there are male and female nongs - no gender holds the high moral ground.

Let's face it we all tend to support our own gender in marriage breakups unless the person has committed some great and obvious wrong, but most breakups are much more complicated and have evolved slowly into the mess they end in.

There is no doubt that there is a masculinity crisis for some men and boys.

It would be interesting to hear exactly what it is we want from the opposite sex (or same-sex in homosexual relationships). I suspect the list would be almost identical.

Posted by pelican, Monday, 28 June 2010 4:54:26 PM

BTK
I meant to comment about your statement - "I don't have too many friends on here...".

Not so at all. Most posters have acknowledged your painful experience but are hoping you can find another way to deal with it that is not so self-defeating. This does not necessarily equate with marriage but at least to find a peace that might enable you to enjoy sharing some aspects of your life with a special 'other'.

You seem like an intelligent guy that has just been hurt, it takes time but life will get better if you help it along

Posted by pelican, Monday, 28 June 2010 6:08:21 PM

Billy

We can suggest to friends leaving because of discontent that they think about what can be done where they are. On the other hand some people will never do what it takes to be a partner to their current spouse.

For men wanting to avoid the traps.
- Make sure you are strongly and visibly involved in your kid's lives. Take them to kid's parties, the park, to play dates, arrange work hours so that you are not unknown at the child care center or school and all the other stuff that to often dad's leave to mums.
- Take family leave from work to care for sick kids and a leave for that special event in their lives.
- Never accept that working to pay for that bigger house (or the bosses bigger house) instead of being involved in your kids life is more important.
- Don't go along with "wait till your dad get's home then you are in trouble" You don't want to be set up as the feared parent.
- If a marriage does split find way's to do the parenting you want to continue with.
- Never ever let the hurt spill over to threats no matter how unlikely you are to follow through with them.
- Try to think about the big picture. Focusing on anger at an ex for leaving ( or trying some nasty tricks ) will hurt you and your kid's and probably make an ex feel more justified in leaving.
- Make sure that you behave better than your ex, that you can look back afterward's without shame about your own choices.
- regardless of how bad it gets remember that kid's will often wake up to a manipulative parent as they age and will make their own choices one day.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Monday, 28 June 2010 6:42:47 PM

R0bert

Respect to you - that was terrific advice.

And a tip for more sex, show you care not by flowers (that's great for a surprise but no compensation for day to day behaviour) but by being involved - share domestic chores without being asked. Smile. Give genuine compliments. And remember, sometimes when your partner wants/needs a hug that is all she wants.

Posted by Severin, Monday, 28 June 2010 6:52:09 PM

Sex isn't a bargaining tool in a relationship and you should kick any woman to the kerb if she uses it as one. Who wants a woman like that anyway, with no sexual desire of her own, needing you to jump through her hoops for a normal expression of intimacy.

And plainly, by Severin's logic, if your partner doesn't share in the yard work and give you compliments, they don't deserve any attention. So if the lawns aren't mowed when you get home every second Friday from work, don't talk to her. It's only fair that if she denies your needs you should deny hers in the same way.

And remember Severin, sometimes when your partner wants/needs sex, that is all he wants, so don't pester him for cuddles or bore him with your stories of the days events.

Posted by Houellebecq, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 9:33:05 AM

When I said lots of suicides, CJ Morgan, I can think of at least 14 occurrences..A couple of whom I was very close to..Google the stats. It's not surprising I know that many..Why would you question that?

As for the rest of CJ Morgan's last post. I deny I have masculinity issues. I also can't see any changes I could have made that would have stopped my ex wife leaving for a fantasy that turned into a disaster...Believe me I've looked and tried...

I'm now going to change what I have previously said and put it out there that I am not bitter but realistic...Yes there are nongs in both genders....So what is the problem?

I believe this new culture we have of not judging or pointing the finger (at either sex) is causing the crisis we now have. In other words, people are doing what ever they want with no regard for how others will view it or how it will affect others around them...Judging encourages some kind of restraint....

If there are going to be en mass family break downs (this is a masculinity issue for both genders) there needs to be a better way...(not a single magistrate) that determines what is fair...and laws that reflect fairness....i.e 50% care of children (not just a philosophy as per now, but actually do it)...50% of accrued wealth ONLY while together...As I've said before...Why would someone that's divided their wealth unfairly once line up to do it again?..This is a whole society problem..Ranging from inflated house prices to kids being raised without dads to men that just don't care any more......

Currently you are at the mercy of one persons life experience and bias (the magistrate) and that is simply not working....

Severin and R0bert have such balanced views that I admire and wish I could be more like...

Houellebecq, are you being as you have said "devils advocate" here? And i didn't take your cryptic hint..Didn't understand it to be honest.

Bitter no (well maybe a bit), realistic yes!

Posted by billythekid, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:07:54 AM

"And plainly, by Severin's logic, if your partner doesn't share in the yard work and give you compliments, they don't deserve any attention. "

No by my take on Severin's logic if a woman want's quality time with the man around the house that will involve doing some of the stuff he enjoy's with him. A guy might be more willing to talk more over some yard work with a partner than if together time is always at an expensive cafe or similar.

Some will abuse meeting their partners needs by treating that as bargaining tools but for the rest it's about the give and take of life. It's about men feeling better about their partner when they value what's important to the man because it's important to him and visa versa.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 7:06:22 PM

Yes of course r0bert, but oh how often do we hear about all the things men should do for 'more sex'. I happen to prefer women who actually like sex, and therefore would be cutting off their nose to spite their face if they were to place conditions like Severin does.

Regardless, as Severin's link showed, the mental health industry that you're all so keen to get BTK to embrace sees it as a man's job to appease whatever their partner wishes.

As some of the commentators noted...

'Why is there the automatic assumption that the feminine mode and point of view with regard to dealing with emotion is the "correct" and desired position?

Why can't women be counseled to expect less emotional coddling instead? Or are women so totally incapable of controlling themselves that it is always going to be up to the man to make all the emotional sacrifices?

Why can't the woman say, "The way that I am acting and what I am demanding of the man in my life is distressing him. Perhaps I should learn to deal with him in a more constructive (to him) manner." But no, it is always - women need this, women have to be given that, women want ... etc.'

As the author admits, most men enter therapy because they've been "forced". Their partner has finally deployed the nuclear option. As amply illustrated by his train-platform anecdote, the female partner's goals for the therapy are presumed to be preferable, even sacrosanct. Even when they fail to exhibit the standard of behaviour they demand, the responsibility to conform/affirm still rests on the man.

This is not to say that men don't need to work towards healthy relationships. It's to say that men & women both need to compromise in that work. Despite the author's claims that he is advocating a new approach to doing therapy with (to? on?) men, he really seems to be insisting that they conform to what their partners expect, regardless of the merits. How about some balance?

Posted by Houellebecq, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 8:50:49 AM

billythekid: << I deny I have masculinity issues. >>

While you're in denial about the obvious problems you're having with respect to your masculinity, I don't think I'm going to waste any more time and effort on you. I suspect your ex felt something similar before she left.

Howler - the author's a godbothering relic who wants us to revert to 1950s-style relationships. I don't think too many people here take him seriously. I certainly don't.

On the other hand, losers like billythekid already associate the failure of their marriages with the cause of suicide. I take that seriously, which is why I suggested counselling or therapy. Hopefully he'll wake up to himself before it's too late.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 9:03:38 AM

Well, certainly calling anyone a 'loser', is not going to help their mental health problems. I don't think you're genuine at all.

I have a happy life and a wonderful relationship, but I know anyone could easily fall on hard times like billy. Loser is a dreadful word, full of arrogance and lacking in any empathy.

The last thing he needs is to spend $100 a week he doesn't have talking to some shrink who's just going to patronise him like that guy from Severins article. Or worse, imagine pontificator! Actually that article ironically explains every reason Hasbeen is right and men shouldn't see shrinks. Leave the shrinks and the Tarot and astrology for the chicks man.

PS: Does anyone really believe in that article that a guy really was so bothered about being seen carrying a hand bag. Man that's weird. It doesn't really ring true, I think the author made it up.

Posted by Houellebecq, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 9:42:20 AM

I don't presume to speak for Severin, but I believe her point was that sex will come more easily in a mutually satisfying relationship where both partners respect each other - respect includes sharing household, childcare and paid work responsibilities or other arrangements as may suit.

Women (or men for that matter) who are really tired from holding down a job, child care and housework without much help from the OH are less likely to feel like sex rather than using it as a manipulative tool.

That was my take on it anyway for what it's worth.

Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:52:58 AM

My point is pelican, that this works both ways. But all we ever hear in the media and from the rantings of yourself and Severin is that men must change to put women in the mood.

Now as I expressed earlier when you and Severin described the real men of the world are the ones who do manual labour for women they don't know, there is one rule for men and one for women.

For a man to describe how a real woman is one who makes him a nice meal, that more often than not will illicit shouts of sexism/chauvenism. Now we also have the call for men to do more housework if they are to have their partner in the mood for sex.

Yourself and r0bert have read into Severin's post a mutuality that wasn't expressed. Now that generosity would never be granted to Yabby or HasBeen if they expressed Severin's sentiments from a male perspective.

If yabby said he wanted his missus to show she cared by having a nice dinner on the table, or a nice BJ once in a while, CJ would be right out there with his Neanderthal gear. Certainly nobody would be defending him saying he was talking more generally about 'mutually satisfying relationship where both partners respect each other - respect includes sharing household, childcare and paid work responsibilities or other arrangements as may suit.'

It is commonplace to read about the simple needs of men in relationships relating to beer, sex, sport and food to be inextricably linked to their housework efforts, but the yard work and office work of men is in no way ever related to listening and cuddles and candle-light dinners. Nope, the attention and cuddles and stuff that women need are non-negotiable, never relating to their earning and yard work efforts.

Posted by Houellebecq, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:39:41 PM

Houlley
Please show me where I mentioned that men must perform manual labour to please women. In my household my OH does do more of the hard physical stuff as I really cannot do it (well not on my own), but even being a shortstuff manage to do my fair share of digging and garden slog. That is the way it is for practical reasons not from an ideological pressure that men must do manual labour. I do more cooking for example without any feeling of oppression.

There are many times I have agreed with and supported views from Yabby, Hasbeen and yourself on many occasions as usually I find you very fair minded if not somewhat defensive about gender, but we are all that - so that's cool.

I thought my posts clearly demonstrate an 'it works both ways' approach.

Posted by pelican, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 1:04:55 PM

Ha you're right pelican! It was Severin and floatinglili (not yourself) lauding the virtues of the 'real men' who did free manual labour for them. I sincerely apologise.

Your posts did demonstrate a works both ways approach, so much so that you projected this attitude between the lines of Severin's post. Something I argued, and still do, would not be so generously applied (by others, not necessarily yourself) to the posts of the 'Neanderthal' bitter man brigade on OLO.

I'm actually not so defensive about gender as I undoubtedly appear, but have a very keen radar for double standards, and a propensity for siding with the underdog. There are many articles out there about sex and housework, but not so many about yard work and cuddles I think you'd have to agree. Maybe it's because men would rather do the yard work alone for some peace and quiet, and can always find time to cuddle the missus. I know I do.

Oh, how once, in Warwick's time no doubt, we lived in a world where men expected their needs to be met, dinner on the table and a bit of shoosh when the news was on, and women's needs just weren't heard. I think now the opposite is true. The needs of women are constantly promoted in the media and by counsellors et al, and the needs of men trivialised. Just like the frigid woman has disappeared and the longer lasting sex adverts have appeared.

If you read Severin's article, its basically a patronising view of men with the overarching idea that men should do whatever it takes to keep their woman happy. It's apposite (Just for you CJ) to the times we live in.

Posted by Houellebecq, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 2:32:32 PM

I can see that my good young mate Howler is continuing to assert his masculinity within the context of his excellent relationship. Which is exactly as it should be.

My reason for referring to billythekid as a "loser" is that he's someone who's apparently failed at a couple of major things in his life (marriage, teaching) but refuses to acknowledge that there's anything at all about him to blame. Indeed, it's all because of the dreadful stuff that women as a gender have to society, apparently.

In my experience, it doesn't work that way. If you fail a couple of times, I've learned that it's time to revisit the plan with the view to making amendments where necessary.

Otherwise, you're doomed to remain a loser.

Posted by CJ Morgan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 3:42:01 PM

No problems Houlley. Perhaps the focus on attention to women's needs came about as a result of those male dominated households of the 50s you talk about, where the focus was very much on men's needs and where women were economically dependent so had little choice but to remain in bad relationships.

Life tends to go in peaks and troughs not just regards gender, but on many ideological fronts and like sheep our views are developed by the now without any sense of historical context. Political ideology is the same, once people accepted publicly owned utilities as the norm and a good thing, now any mention of public ownership brings out the fear brigade.

Societies are not static and these tensions are part of the balancing process (or evolutionary process). Both men and women are struggling to some extent with exactly how this equity might be defined or reflected in work and home life. It is harder for those in the older generation naturally because it means change.

Thankfully I don't spend too much time pontificating over it in RL and just get on the business of living. :)

Posted by pelican, Thursday, 1 July 2010 9:36:11 AM

CJ Morgan. I started to write about how wrong you are. I couldn't be bothered. You're not woth it. You are an absolute tool. Hiding behind your computer challenging people who are clearly far more intelligent and masculine than yourself.

Posted by Tonny, Thursday, 1 July 2010 9:48:53 AM

pelican, "Perhaps the focus on attention to women's needs came about as a result of those male dominated households of the 50s you talk about, where the focus was very much on men's needs and where women were economically dependent so had little choice but to remain in bad relationships."

Specifically the RSL section of the male population I would say. Given all of the commemoration activities especially of the Howard years it is not politically correct to say it but the drunkenness, violence and dismissive attitudes to women was very strong in the men who believed that Australia owed them everything.

There needs to some honesty about the selfish, regressive, ultra-right wing attitudes of returned servicemen and their organisation and the effect of both on women and on general society for over fifty years. Even nurses and other women who served in war zones were second class citizens as far as the RSL was concerned and on ANZAC Day were not even allowed in member areas of RSL clubs - these and the food and booze that went with it were strictly reserved for male ex-service men.

While it was true that service men suffered greatly during WW2, they have been sacred cows since and many revelled in that. Then there were the dreadful substance abuse, gambling addiction and other problems that cost wives and families dearly. Some problems were of choice (eg smoking, although it was a major cost to the taxpayer through accepted disabilities) and others truly resulting from war.

It would be difficult to find a harder-living, more self-indulgent population than the men who frequented ex-service clubs and they were in the many, many thousands. However men who for whatever reason did not have war service were treated as a lower caste, being held in worse disdain than women and at a similar disadvantage in obtaining work and in promotion. Feminism avoids 'problematic' facts like that. The jealous stranglehold of the WW2 ex-servicemen was blindingly obvious in their non-acceptance of younger veterans from Korea and Vietnam for example.

Posted by Cornflower, Thursday, 1 July 2010 2:40:20 PM

Bloody 'ell, I go away and Houllie has a meltdown.

R0bert wrote some wonderful advice - no one accuses him of being patronising.

All I did was add something that MOST people in successful relationships already do: care, share, respect and love. It's not rocket science, nor is it telling men what to do, simply because if you (male or female) are not there for your partner then chances are your relationship won't be there either.

Posted by Severin, Thursday, 1 July 2010 3:12:11 PM

Oh Severin, there is a hell of a lot of daylight between r0berts post and yours.

R0berts post reads as a list of things he learned through his divorce. Full of self empowering advice for men in their relationships independent of the needs/wants/demands of their partner. A check-list of personal responsibility and pre-emptive patterns of behaviour for greater protection and peace of mind in the event of separation.

Yours is a list of patronising assumptions about BTK's relationship or perhaps what you view as the common failings of men in relating and attending to the needs of women, with an assertion that the pay-off of conforming to these needs would/should be more sex.

Posted by Houellebecq, Thursday, 1 July 2010 4:50:28 PM

R0bert

While we may frequently disagree, one of the reasons I will take time to consider your POV is that you try not to hold grudges and neither do I. I am happy to post in agreement with you, but do not hold back if I don't. I also appreciate you and Pelican's clear understanding of what I have written and that you have taken the time to state your understanding.Therefore, my points have been made here.

I have no reason to spend any more time on this thread. Till we cross paths again.... thank you.

Posted by Severin, Friday, 2 July 2010 12:19:35 PM

"I have no reason to spend any more time on this thread."

That about sum's it up. Nothing new happening here.

R0bert

Posted by R0bert, Friday, 2 July 2010 4:08:26 PM

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