Dear Dan,

I think Sagan and I are using different contexts. Yet, a mutation that provides a negative consequence still provides direction to the system. One could argue the Life has not been successful on Earth, because most speciies are extinct. On the hand, applying relativism, one could also say a dolphin is smarter than an ameoba - yet, that is highly value ladened. People should be careful how they use the terms ascent and descent. One need to read the surrounding paragraphs.

OUG,

Thnks for youg (long) post. I have meeting and will need to come back.

I would not disagree with Sagan entirely Dan, but certainly disagree with your interpretation of what he wrote. What frequency is rare? Rare does does not mean non-existent by any means.

What he was saying is that mutations are common, useful mutations are not so common. This is what evolutionary biologists have been saying all along.

You are talking in absolutes, in your mind (relatively) rare= nonexistent.

Complete rubbish. If you don't agree, then why do I not look like you?

bugsy/posits..why..dont you..look like me..

well the thing/is..all..huh-mans look-alike to me..so we do..your nose might on the micro/level be less wide/than mine and maybe one milimeter/longer

but essentially..to the causual/observer..we are identical/male..near/6..foot/tall.hairy..
in short male/human..just like..all tigers...'look'..the same

[even though..science has revealed..each has distinct/stipe..patterning...

and even though
we both/have a unique/face..
two hands/two feet...male/human....
BUT essentially..same/same...

and thus are able-to interbreed..with each-others sisters..who also...'look'..the same..[biogeneticlly compatabil]

all sand/sand..all rocks are rocks..all plants are plants

we could debate the finer/points..to eternity..
but as evidence../of evolving..out of genus..its a no/show

but while..i disagree..on the small/petty..points
on the bigger-picture..
i must/agree with/you..

re the commonality..of MUTATION...
science has evidenced..that one/in every..200..cell divisions..

contains..a mutation..!

you and i..are mutating..as we speak..
its JUST OH/..SO..COMMON..*..!

for all intent/purpose..its so common/as to be laugh-able
as a real/cause..of new varieties/let alone new genus..
[unless inbreeding]..
homo-genising..the mutation..IN BOTH..parental..dna/source.providers..causes/sports..[mutations]

yet despite..the millions/of INDIVIDUAL/MUTATIONS..
we/and..our sisters....HAVE..
yet
we can..interbred..co-creating..perfectly..formed humans..

that look like..us...
who also in their lifetimes
shall collect..millions of cellular/mutations..[of little or no realised/adverse-affect]...

the only relevance..of mutation...is..those..in the overies/testies

but even there..we get defects..of deteriation...infertility..etc..in the main/mainly via the telemeers..running down...thus preventing normal..cellular-division

anyhow..the mutatioon theory..is a destraction

its so common..[1/200]..so as to be nothing...that science..can use predicably...or claim as a means..of evolving..out of genus/level

[sexual reproduction..virtually assures this...as previously wrote]

but further..on this/

also usefull..is the pairing...[chromosones come in pairs]...
one having a deletion..is easilly corrected..by the fact..one might not work..yet the other does.;.work/just-fine..

[the most common-mutation is/due-to..cross-over of the chromosanal strands..at cell division...BUT..can only be..inheratable/transphered..if its..not fatal..[survival/of the fit-test]

but then..it is removed..or replaced...at fertilisation..
that ensures at least one/of the chromosanal-pair..remains viable...life/lives..

or two not viable...die's...
god designed it so fine..its simply amasing

as is the rest/of his creation...any more O[oxegen]..we would die...because fires would run-out of control...
/any less we would die..

funny aint it..how we are EGSACTLY the right/distance from the sun...and how..of all the animals..we ALONE..read/write..speak prose..or verbalise law..make love...even if not for pro-creation

god..how great/thou art

how can you/not realise the greatness..god gave you?

your/in his image..
yet even have YOUR/OWN..face

Dear OUG et al.,

-"Mutation is this continuance/of said creation." (Oliver)

- "No its a downward/spiral...all mutations..are erors." - OUG

"Downward" is another value-ladened word. Many errors create intermedies which do survive, while a few others offer advantage depending on the environment and competition. Colour vision and an opposing thumb are mutations and "from the perspective of our species" an advantage. "We eat sharks" ; many of our advantages have devastated less able animals. Downward and Upward are relative terms.
On the other hand, if our species is killed off by a solar eruption a million years from now, perhaps, some sightless worm in a deep cave will still have DNA to survive. Even cockroach on the surface.

I think we could wondering a bit off topic

maybe...lol..you will heed..the advice...from a scientist...<<we have no satisfactory definition/of mutation..so far..and even contemporary classification of types of variations..is contradictory now.>>

http://www.springerlink.com/content/2t377376g2109466/

link/continues..<<The situation is explainable/by the fact that the classification..was introduced/rather..from the phenomenological approach,..than from the mechanisms..underlying the variation phenomena>>

so as/you..SHOUKLD..know..the following definitions...are more for the gullable..than the science-minded

Noun;1...mutant..(biology)..an organism that has characteristics>>NOTE..'character-istics'[phenmotype]..is used..not the true/nature[genotype]..of the being..<<resulting from..chromosomal alteration>>ie..not the actual/mutation..by mechanism..science..NEEDS know...AND replicate..to VALIDATE..to have a TRUE-science

mutation,..sport,..variation
organism,..being;.a living thing/that has..(or can develop)>>>how they wriggle...giggle..<<..the ability...>>not means...or even the fruit/resulty..[nor process]..lol...<<..to act or function independently>>

[clearly this phy-tricks/..word-play[ploy]...its parentus..'acted'/'fun-choned..'independantly/[as well as coorperativly..before/and after..coitus..oh how ignorant..the blind..chose to be

2.mutant..an animal that has undergone mutation

AS REVEALED previously..WE ARE ALL MUTANTS..all mutating..about every..200/th..cell division

note..who is mutant
the true question...would be WHO>>IS NOT?....lol

<animal,animate being,beast,creature,fauna,brute/a living organism characterized by voluntary movement[ok i will throw-in fauna..


Adj...1...mutant/..tending to undergo..or resulting from mutation;.."a mutant gene">>[ie every 200th...lol


SO WE ARE ALL..<<mutant
noun
freak,/monster,/mutation,/deviant,/oddity,/monstrosity,/freak of nature,...lusus naturae;..a person or animal/..that is markedly unusual..or deformed>>BUT/some..just like to think..they AINT..lol

<<"Downward"..is another value-ladened word>>>SO TOO IS MUTANT...and its ADjective..[objerctive...MUTATION

<<Many errors/create intermedies..which do survive,>>are you talking about at the cell-ular/level...or in the whole being...because mutation...ONLY HAPPEND..at the micro/level...not the qm/level..not the macro/level

<<Downward and Upward..are relative terms.>>>so are the words..mutantion///qiantum,..micro/macro...species..genus


<<On the other hand,>>yet of the same bent

<<if our species>>>you mean genus....right?

if our species/genus/family..group..<<..is killed off/by a solar eruption..>>>it wuill/can only mean..the ionophere..has been destroyed...[and god aint going to let that happen...now or..<<a million years from now,>>

but ignorance..of the true sciences...just might
and we do got freew-ill..<<..perhaps,..some sightless/worm..in a deep cave will still have DNA to survive.>>>yes and as a blind/dumb-worm..will survive...quiote well..but he will still be BLINDF..and still be a worm...!

<<Even cockroach/on the surface>>>is yet a dumb/beast..but you are a MAN..the highest..of gods creations...!

please/guys..[and gals]...EVOLVE YOUR THINKING
or just try harder..to see..the bleeding-obvious

SCIENCE..has NEVER/made..life
HAS NO IDEA..how it began

nor has able to explain..
CONCLUSIVLY/definitivly..how god/nature..did

OUG,

When I used the term species, I simply meant humans, I was not addressing any phylogenic scale (and there are several) just using everyday language. I could have people are killed off. If the coachroaches survive a world-wide hit of radiation and we don't, it "illustrates" that intelligence did not have survival value against a major solar even, given the example. To say that we are superior to an ant requires context. Humans, for animal of our size, have 10,000 population we should have. On the other hand , we consume half the planet's national natural production. Again, the direction we are moving (up/down) depends of the question.

"if our species/genus/family..group..<<..is killed off/by a solar eruption..>>>it wuill/can only mean..the ionophere..has been destroyed. - Oliver

..[and god aint going to let that happen...now or..<<a million years from now,>>" - OUG

If a god stopped it, It would breaking Its own rules. Said God lets 10,000s and sometimes hundreds of thousands of people die each year in natural catastrophies. Besides, my point was that other animals are better adapted than we are given the certain various circumastance.

Religion sees humans have as being "special". And we are: Yet, we are only in specific contexts. Thereis no guarantee that the DNA of some bioform 1,000 meters under a heat vent under an ocean will be around after our DNA's descendants are long gone.