Dear OUG,

Will see your remarks on another thread no doubt.

I could be offline for a while: Work stuff.

Take care.

hi/or maybe goodbye...oliver

i took some time-out..and started cleaning-up...came across a book..'evolution fact,fraud..or faith[by don boys.phd]

interesting read..[with many titles in the referance section]..well researched..

in/it..he notes..garret/harding[cal/instute..of teqnology]..who wrote..'some-one who dosnt/honour darwin..INEVITABLY..attracts the phychiatric/eye..to himself''....a point..ol/rusty cathhater amply demon-straits

he/also notes..thomas/huxley..words..[he wrote to darwin..offering to help him in his/cause..a renowned/hater of religion..;..'and as to the curs..which will bark/and yelp...you must recollect..that some of/your friends.....are endowed..with an ammount of combativness/which may stand..you in good stead...i am sharpening-up my claws..and beaj...in readyness''

which about reflects the mindset/of those..who have decieved so many

anyhow..no doudt many will rush...[lol]..to read the book...funny he makes much the same case i have made/here..but he begins with basic's..like defining evolution...'means..an unfolding process'..like an egg/becomming a chicken..or a rose..become rose..from a rose-bud''

he also reveals..the lack of transitionals[if small steps..[lol]..there should at least be more change-lings..than identical..accross the milenia

[yet those..so called..living fossils..are egsactly the same..lol]

he goes into the errors of dating..ans expoasing the many frauds..[archeaopteryx,,made from a paste..of crushed..limestone/smeared arround a repltile/fossil..then impregnated with modern/chicken feathers

or the delusions..of the meteorite/from mars..found to be altered/by glue..seeds.coal,,gravel..and tissue..as well as the frauds of java/man..and neanderthal/man..and the pit-down..man..the nebraska/man..the peking..man..the east/africa...'man'..and austra-low-pick-us

as well the THEORY..of mutation..[out of genus]..lol..[quoting]..

grasse/nilson..;there is NO SINGLE..instance..where it can be maintained...that any of the mutants/studied..has a higher/vitality..than its mother species...and it is therfor/absolutly impossable..to build..a current/evolution..on mutations..or on recombinations

or/michael..pitman..quote..'neither onservation/nor controlled experiment/has shown..natural-selection..manipulation/mutations..so as to produce..a new-gene..or hormone..or enzyme/system..or orgin

he reminds/us of the moon-landing..where science/peers expected 100 feet of dust...but if your peers cant be botherd/..posting..or doing their own research

let em sleep

thanks oliver...for giving words..ideas..and info
but mostly..for being you

Dear Oliver,
Was your explanation useful? That depends what for.

Was it convincing? Not very.

It was filled with ideas such as “If we think non-classically”. I don’t mind trying to think outside of the box, but …

If we think non-classically, we could go on any flight of fancy. Thinking non-classically, my budgie could fly unaided to the moon.

The phrase I wanted to concentrate on was ‘creative agent’. You believe that such things exist in the natural world. I suggest that, from our experience, we normally assign displays of creativity to the result of intelligence, in whatever form.

Mutations (errors in copying the genetic sequence) are, on the whole, not creative agents. If anything they are quite degenerate or destructive.

The earth, with its sophisticated and wildly elaborate displays of apparent design is stuck for a natural explanation. ‘The appearance of living forms on the earth is, to our increasing knowledge, as inexplicable as if foam from the sea washed up and assembled itself into the Parthenon.’

Hi Dan,

Please excuse brevity.

Classical and non-classical are commonly used terms in physics. Newtonian mechanics is classical; whereas, quantum mechanics is non-classical.

Mutation and natural selection in natural schemata infuse direction. Good or bad are arbitary terms in this context. Creative? It dependes on how one uses the term. Sexual reproduction is creative. However, as believed I used the term, reference was to the "creation of life". the problem of Life existing is not chemistry rather the time of assembly of life's component's in a hostile macr-environment and QM may address that issue.

Mutation is this continuance of said creation.

Natural phenomena can be organised (appear intelligent). Apples always fall to the ground on Earth. Snow flakes and galaxies are constructed in accordance with universal laws. However, the organised physical world is the antithesis of the alleged etherial supernatural.

Offline for a few days.

Dear Oliver,
You say, "Mutation and natural selection in natural schemata infuse direction. Good or bad are arbitary terms in this context."

That's not how Sagan saw things. Would you like to disagree with him on this point?

"... mutations occur at random and are almost uniformly harmful - it is rare that a precision machine is improved by random change in the instructions for making it." (Carl Sagan, The Dragons of Eden, 1977)

Mutation as a process that brings genetic burden, it's not a creative agent.

oliver/quote..<<Sexual reproduction is creative.>>strangly provocative..of the two choices..a-sexual..or sexual replication..isnt so much creative...as it is in assuring..a genomic/mean...for a given species..to move..WITHIN..

[like the darwin/finches..waver..between thick/beak..+..long thin beak..depending on good/bad season..or the black-moths..that survive..in poluted areas...and the white moths that survive in nature..[all within their genome/genus]

darwin..revealed the wild-type..[symbolised..'[+]']..this wild-type was the ancestoral genus...[thus as in the case.of pigeons...crossing two wildly diss-simular phenotypes of doves..

[say a long/legged/long-bodie..long beaked magpie-pigeon..with say a short/beaked..short bodied/short legged tumbler...saw their f1.generation..leaning towards..the parental/blue bar/columbia-liva[rock-dove][+]

wether this may-be regarded/as creative..is debatable[it does reveal that sexual/reproduction...is natures[thus gods]..way of balancing a species..within its genomic/potential...[all the genes were present..to make totally oppisites[phenotypically]...yet crossing them sexually..saw the return of their ancestoral genotype

dotto..for dogs...horses/cattle/sheep..mouse..rabbit etc
[as revealed in darwins..'origens of species']..it also validates mendelic/inheritors..as many of the features..of the genus columbia[and the genus canna...etc etc..contain ressesive/and dominant traits

<<Quantum/mechanics..may address that issue.>>>no it cant...[in my opinion..but if so...in what way..[what aspects of qm/are you refering/to

<<Mutation is this continuance/of said creation.>>>no its a downward/spiral...all mutations..are erors..of transcription...and even then the genus...ensures a restoration/mean...[using sexual means..

[ie half a chromosonal set from each parental]..
meaning a 50/50 chance of getting the errant/mutation..out of the chromosanal pairings[enjoining..together at fertilisation

<<Apples/always fall to the ground>>yes/at the macro/level..but what has/gravity..to do with mendelic/sexual replication..ok they are both/subject to HARD/FAST..L.A.W

<<the organised physical-world/is the antithesis of the alleged etherial supernatural>>lets keep it real/and simple..i dont know what the/joinder of them big-words...means...when in a lump..like that

anti-thesis=oppisite?
alledged=unable to be proved/thus a theory[like evolution/of genus]
etherial=of that beyond the material[this realm?]
super-natural..nature/plus...nature/super-ised[thus not nature?]

no i cant make sense of it oliver
what does...<<..antithesis of the alleged etherial supernatural>>..mean..in simple words?