The Forum > General Discussion > what is there to negotiate?
what is there to negotiate?
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Posted by mhaze, Thursday, 3 March 2022 5:08:18 PM
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Dear Individual,
I respect your personal disdain of freedom, but I hope you only treat yourself like that, not your children. Unselfishness cannot be developed without first being allowed to be selfish, then freely choosing to grow out of it and let it go. Wisdom cannot be gained without first being allowed to be stupid, then gradually learn. Do you force your children to take cold showers so they "harden up" and "not be selfish"? Do you snatch up your children's toys saying "give up these useless stupid things and grow up, now!"? The question is whether you are a wise saint who no longer requires worldly freedom because you found that inner peace which nothing could shake - or just a lazy person who wouldn't bother to get out and obtain what they rightly deserve in the world. --- Dear SteeleRedux, Yes, NATO promised to not expand any further east, but that was at the time of glasnost, when Russia seemed to open up and allow the freedom of its own people, those were other days, when it was believed that Russia could be trusted, not like now when Russian children were forcibly taken away from their parents, placed in tanks not knowing where they go and for many weeks if not months are not allowed to call their parents and tell them that they are hungry. Ukrainians understand that this would be the fate of their own "neutral" children if they lay down their arms allowing Russia to successfully take over, that without NATO, they too would be sent hungry to invade Poland and Germany and spill their blood in now-friendly foreign fields. Fortunately, Europe has awakened to that reality, including even sleepy Finland: Australia too needs to be shaken up because all this is coming to our shores too. --- Dear Mhaze, One day humans WILL be extinct. It's not an IF, just a WHEN. If as you claim, there would be no intelligence left, that intelligence depends on our humanness and would itself be extinct, then why bother having it even now? Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 3 March 2022 5:35:28 PM
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What is there to negotiate?
Nothing, negotiations can only work when the other side has some measure of trustworthiness remaining - listen to Chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov: "He [Putin] is not a chess player - he is a poker player, and unfortunately over 20 years he used to win every game because he bluffed": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFmAqiU7Jow Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 3 March 2022 5:58:57 PM
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Dear davidf,
As always I admire your vision can only applaud its direction on the broader question. I think somewhere within it there should be an examination of the nation state as therein lies more than one of the problems we are trying to solve. I was struck by this address by the Kenyan ambassador to the UN. http://youtu.be/ZxZlaiuicYM Quote “This situation echoes our history. Kenya and almost every African country was birthed by the ending of empire. Our borders were not of our own drawing. They were drawn in the distant colonial metropoles of London, Paris and Lisbon, with no regard for the ancient nations that they cleaved apart. Today, across the border of every single African country, live our countrymen with whom we share deep historical, cultural and linguistic bonds. At independence, had we chosen to pursue states on the basis of ethnic, racial or religious homogeneity, we would still be waging bloody wars these many decades later. Instead, we agreed that we would settle for the borders that we inherited, but we would still pursue continental political, economic and legal integration. Rather than form nations that looked ever backward into history with a dangerous nostalgia, we chose to look forward to a greatness none of our many nations and peoples had ever known. We chose to follow the rules of the Organisation of African Unity and the United Nations charter, not because our borders satisfied us, but because we wanted something greater, forged in peace. We believe that all states formed from empires that have collapsed or retreated have many peoples in them yearning for integration with peoples in neighboring states. This is normal and understandable. After all, who does not want to be joined to their brethren and to make common purpose with them? However, Kenya rejects such a yearning from being pursued by force. We must complete our recovery from the embers of dead empires in a way that does not plunge us back into new forms of domination and oppression. Cont.. Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 3 March 2022 10:33:05 PM
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Cont..
We rejected irredentism and expansionism on any basis, including racial, ethnic, religious or cultural factors. We reject it again today. Kenya registers its strong concern and opposition to the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states. We further strongly condemn the trend in the last few decades of powerful states, including members of this Security Council, breaching international law with little regard. Multilateralism lies on its deathbed tonight. It has been assaulted today as it as it has been by other powerful states in the recent past.” End quote. However right now the question is what does a negotiated settlement look like and I feel it must include a firm commitment of neutrality from the Ukrainians. Posted by SteeleRedux, Thursday, 3 March 2022 10:33:49 PM
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Dear Steele Redux,
Perhaps the problem does not lie within the nature of the nation state. How come Ukraine which is predominately Christian and intensely nationalistic has a Jew as its head of government? The answer may be found in history. Look up Uniate Church. Uniate Church - Russia's PeripheryRussia's Periphery (wm.edu) The answer is found there. The various branches of Christianity hate each other more than they hate the Jews. The respective Orthodox Christian patriarchs of Russia and Ukraine fully support the armed forces of their respective nations. Posted by david f, Friday, 4 March 2022 12:59:26 AM
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The trouble with that type of 'thinking' (for want of a more appropriate word) is that there'd be no intelligence left to evaluate if it was a better world.
(Stand by for all those deep thinkers who'll show their wokism by saying humans aren't intelligent either).