Putin has ordered the invasion of Ukraine. Russian forces have invaded Ukraine. We are told that the parties concerned should go back to the negotiating table. What is there to negotiate? Ukraine wants to continue as an independent country. Putin doesn't want it to continue as an independent country. There is nothing to negotiate.

Not unless the Ukrainians hold the Russians at bay militarily long enough until public opinion in Russia forces Putin to negotiate some kind of settlement. It seems Putin does not have the control of Russia to the same extent Stalin controlled the USSR. Its not known to what extent the Russian people support Putin's action.

At a guess I'd say that Putin wants to be a
ruler for life. He wants to restore Russia
to its previous "glory," and then some.
I imagine that he thinks if he can do that he
will have the support of the Russian people and
he will be able to do what he wants.

It's now up to the Russian people to get rid of the
man. It must come from within Russia. Putin must be removed.
It's the only way.

Putin has about ten days, then he starts running out of missiles. The lightweight anti-tank/anti-aircraft missiles supplied to the Ukranians have been effective, further depleting the Russian army of momentum, troops and equipment. This has probably encouraged western nations to supply further military aid as it will likely be put to good use and not abandoned to the opposing forces like it was in Afghanistan.

I think this conflict a triumph of the internet, as Putin and his cronies cannot hide their criminal and cowardly conduct from Russian citizens.

Hi Foxy,

Russia has no history of democracy, but a long history of insecurity. Providing Putin gives that security both economically and physically to the Russian people he's not in much danger of being overthrown.

A maniac cannot be negotiated with. I wouldn’t have thought that anyone would dream that negotiation with Putin was possible. He can win. There is talk of preparing nuclear force on the news this morning. What has the West done? Put in 'serious, never before considered' sanctions. What a joke! If that’s the West 'standing by' Ukraine, it's goodnight to Ukraine, goodnight to the West, and goodnight to Taiwan in the near future.

Good point David F- Kudos.

I suspect that Putin isn't alone and has allies- possibly China- possibly others. It's an interesting dynamic- if Russia and China are on the same side why is Hilary on Green Ukraine's side given she's "nominally" Socialist as is Europe. Maybe there's some "controlled opposition" in the mix- perhaps some players are playing both sides.

The timing of the invasion at the end of the northern winter suggests the option of a long campaign.

We'll probably never know what is really happening.

Dear ttbn,

One can negotiate with a mad man. If a mad man is holding people hostage police teams negotiate with him until they can get the hostages out, get the mad man to surrender or can get a good shot at him.

However, Putin is not a mad man. He is sane and has gambled that he can get Ukraine to be a satellite as Belarus already is. If his adventure proves too costly he will get out. He is sane enough not to want a nuclear exchange. At least I think he is. It will take determination and blood to make his adventure too costly.

david f,
Agree ! Putin doesn't want American/Western mentality ruin what was, can & should be the World's safety latch !

No matter what happens in Ukraine, World War 3 won't be averted unless the West stops its policy of trying to take down autocratic nations with colored revolutions.

Why should Russia want the West's imposed values?

In 2013 Russian passed a law that banned all forms of gay propaganda that are directed at children. And then in 2020, Russian voters supported a national referendum and approved a constitutional amendment which permanently defined marriage as 'a union between one man and one woman'.

It also included more than 200 constitutional amendments, and paved the way for Russian President Vladimir Putin to stay in power until 2036 if he so chooses.

Who made America the worlds policeman, to take down other countries as it chooses?
The US started this when it orchestrated a coup in Ukraine in 2014 to remove the democratically elected leader Yanukovych.

Who gave America the the right to wage economic war and collective punishment on nations and its people?
Why can't it just say 'WE'RE not going to do business with you'
as opposed to, 'We're not going to let you do business at all'

It's bullying, intimidation and all the things it claims its against.
How does the world say bullying is bad, but its ok if we do it and base our policy towards other nations on it?

Western values aren't necessarily good values.
The others aren't necessarily any better either.

But I can see how the others are forced to act the way the do, because of what the West does using civil society groups to ferment discontent and cause insurrection.

[Cont.]
I think we're living in a time where it's clear to see the West is the aggressor and hostile to any and all autocratic regimes.

Why?

- It should be clear to anyone that it seeks to overthrow these nations.
The West causes death and destruction under the cover of 'democratic values' and 'the international order'.

How should one expect nuclear armed autocratic nations (such as Russia and China - members of UN security council consider this war against them and threat to their existences?
Where will this path lead us?

WWW3 is inevitable.

We could talk about state rights v's human rights.
But I don't see these leaders of ours caring about human rights when we protest things they don't like.
Then it's authoritarian rule.

The left takes in the minority votes into one collective:
gays, immigrants, environmentalists, academics and they fight against the traditional white 'male' nationalist / blue collar citizens.
(There was a time when we we're taught to support Australian first, before the policy turned into multiculturalism)
Then it imposes 'international democracy' rule by UN treaty instead of 'national democracy' where the people themselves may have actually decided their own future.

- This is the 2 horse race we call democracy.
It one where the 'HOUSE ALWAYS LOSES'

There is no democracy.
Our leaders aren't ours, they belong to international treaty.
- They're no different than managers at Woolworths -
They don't call the shots.

Am I wrong?
If I'm wrong then someone say so.

If I was Putin I'd be paranoid that someone's going
to bump me off. There's been rumours about Putin's
health for years. Surely Putin must be aware that his
life is always in danger from young ambitious apparachiks.

Time magazine provides an interesting scenario. They point out
that "Putin could have created a flourishing Russia with its
vast oil well and human talent to become a country that
Ukraine would want to be close to."

"Instead he created a country that stinks of death and murder
that Ukraine has been trying to escape from."

Time tells us that Solzhenytsen found a metaphor in the title
of one of his novels. "Cancer Ward." It means cancers want to
spread throughout Europe and beyond.

Time says that Putin's "disease" is terminal.
Ukraine is fighting to the death and choosing life.

Am I wrong?
Armchair critic,
Not in my book !

Gosh AC, that sounds much like the argument that offering women access to birth control in developing countries equates to genocide. The system here is that you have quite a deal of freedom to live the life you want and express your opinions. For example, you might think Putin is a good bloke and invading Ukraine is perfectly justified as the country has an infestation of gays, drug addicts and nazis. No problem expressing such a view here as that is your right (although the gay and druggie references might be sailing a little close to the wind). You could think the same in Russia and be fine, but express a contrary view in public and your circumstances could drastically change.

Lets see if Ukraine can hold out for ten days. The Russian army will need to go hard, but it remains to be seen what the Ukranian forces have to stop them. I hope they can hold out.

The wacky woke are really taking the Ukraine invasion seriously - not:

Concerns about the effect of the war on LGBQTU queers, as if Russia had special perv-seeking missiles.
People fleeing for their lives not wearing masks.
People sheltering in basements and metro stations not social distancing.
Moronic US Secretary of State John Kerry dismayed by what he called the ‘emissions consequences’ of war in Europe. Putin would ‘stay on track’ with fighting climate change while fighting the Ukrainians, the moron said on TV.

While real soldiers are fighting for their country and lives, British soldiers have paused to reflect on 'inclusivity' and 'unacceptable behaviours’ such as bullying, sexual harassment, and racism

Ukraine today, Taiwan tomorrow. And the Woke West will do buggerall about it - even when the Russia/China gang starts on us.

Armchair Critic and Ttbn- Kudos.

Who'd know what deals have been made with China should there be more resistance than expected !

Dear David,

«However, Putin is not a mad man. He is sane and has gambled that he can get Ukraine to be a satellite as Belarus already is. If his adventure proves too costly he will get out. He is sane enough not to want a nuclear exchange. At least I think he is. It will take determination and blood to make his adventure too costly.»

Yes, unfortunately Putin acts rationally: he has Parkinson's disease, and while still in its initial stages, he is destined to die the most painful death imaginable being locked and awake in an unresponsive body, so he has nothing to lose from a nuclear exchange. A nuclear destruction can only play to his selfish advantage.

The only chance to stop this world-destruction now, is to preemptively locate, target and destroy Putin personally. Yes, it is very risky, but no other choice is left.

Hey Fester,
"Gosh AC, that sounds much like the argument that offering women access to birth control in developing countries equates to genocide."

- Which part of my rant were you referring to?

"Lets see if Ukraine can hold out for ten days. The Russian army will need to go hard, but it remains to be seen what the Ukranian forces have to stop them. I hope they can hold out."

The West has played Russia for a fool for too long, and they are drawing a line in the sand.
If Russia doesn't prevail, nukes being launched becomes a whole lot more a realistic prospect.

In that scenario, no-one wins, or at least not us citizens anyway.
(Those who start and forment this war will be in their bunkers while the rest of the planets inhabitants will have to hide under desks)
In my opinion nuclear wars already inevitable.
The West will not listen to Putin or care about his security concerns while they put nukes on his doorstep.

The US already has nukes stationed at Incirlik, Turkey.

I already don't like this war.
Russian mothers who won't see their sons again.
Ukrainian citizens who've lost fathers, kids and family.
No-one wins, we're all going to pay a price for this.
- Even if they both stop it right now, US warmongers will use this to keep pushing.

Somebody here mentioned 'Alea iacta est' a few weeks back
Now its my turn to do so.

I'm sure that right at this moment, people are running around and drawing up much bigger war plans.

Dear Yuyutsu,

I have read the speculation that Putin has Parkinson's. My dear wife has Parkinson's and takes medication 4 times a day to counter its effects. She is still the same wonderful person she is, and so far the effects of the disease express itself in occasional disturbing episodes. I would not wish the disease on anyone. Putin has family, and he knows a nuclear exchange would not be good for them. One can hope.

In his latest rant Donald Trump has called the US "stupid" and praised Putin as "smart". Members of his own party have described some statements from the American far right as boarder line treason.

Several of the more extreme posters on OLO have through mitigation and minimization attempted to justify Putin's actions.

Did Churchill describe Hitler as "smart" when he conquered France.

Paul, the timing of Putin's invasion in war tactics was considered smart as he picked a time when Ukraine was not prepared, and America was weak as per Afganistan exit. He knew America would not front up to fight Russian forces. If Putin decides to use nukes this will bring Western Nation nukes into war.

the West 'standing by' Ukraine,
ttbn,
The West has been in suicide mode for decades & Ukrainians were duped into thinking the West is the future !

Ukraine war: The latest
Ukraine's MoD says Russia has lost 5,300 soldiers, 29 planes, 29 helicopters and 151 tanks
Russia's MoD has for the first time acknowledged suffering losses, but refused to say how many
Russian economy entered freefall as Western sanctions put in place over the weekend took effect, with ruble sliding to its lowest level ever
Moscow's central bank has more-than doubled the interest rate to 20 per cent
Russia orders people and companies to sell 80 per cent of their revenue in foreign currencies, forcing them to buy the ruble to help prop it up
Moscow stock exchange won't open until at least 3pm in an attempt to head off all-out crash
Zelensky has allowed Ukrainian prisoners to be freed if they join defence forces to 'repay their debt'
President says that 16 Ukrainian children have been killed and 45 wounded in the four days since the invasion began
There have been 352 civillians killed

Video of Russian truck convoy destroyed in Ukraine by Turkish Drones.
http://twitter.com/UKRinTR/status/1497888800671817729?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1497888800671817729%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.businessinsider.com%2Fukraine-hypes-bayraktar-drone-as-videos-show-destroyed-russia-tanks-2022-2

target and destroy Putin personally.
Yuyutsu,
And, who of those causing the problems in the first place should be targeted & destroyed on the European/American side ?

Dear Individual,

I did not understand your question.

those causing the problems in the first place
Yuyutsu,
Apart from Putin ! Faceless underminers in the UN, Nato, America etc.

"Did Churchill describe Hitler as "smart" when he conquered France."

Not on that occasion but Churchill had previously called Hitler a genius.

I think the problem for people like Paul and a few others here is that they hate their supposed enemies with such vehemence that they cannot see any good in the foe at all.

People of a gentler disposition recognise all aspects of their foe both good and bad. Yes Hitler was evil but at least until 1943 he was also a genius. Yes Putin is evil, but declaring the Donbass provinces independent was a clever move. That's all Trump said. It was a clever move undone by the subsequent invasion but nontheless.

Dear Individual,

I have no mood or patience for your riddles - if you have a question then go ahead and ask it directly. This is not a time for jokes either when our lives are hanging by a thread and only the brave defenders of Kiev stand between us and the abyss.

mhaze,

"People like Paul" you pompus Old Fart, claiming I am a "hater", when you don't know me, or how I feel about other people, I hate no one, not Putin, not Trump, not even you. So keep your personal opinions about others to yourself.

One thing I do know is you love that reprobate Trump, who in turn loves Putin, so by default can I say you love Putin as well.

Yuyutsu,
You just don't want to understand. How many times has it been alluded to that the West has been undermining World politics since day 1.
Does that fact go so much against your ideology that you have to pretend ignorance ?

Paul1405 said- "Did Churchill describe Hitler as "smart" when he conquered France."

Answer- Not quite but still there was rightly or wrongly Neville Chamberlain. As they say good hunting.

When people say The West- some distinction perhaps needs to be used in which West is being referred to.

mhaze- Some good points- not all- but yes some very good points.

Paul1405 makes it hard for us to love him- but hopefully Paul1405 will find his place- maybe a better pool to stare into with the sun at a different angle.

Paul

"when you don't know me,"

I can only go on what I see in your posts....QED

Dear Individual,

«How many times has it been alluded to that the West has been undermining World politics since day 1.»

Only politics? They have done much worse than that - listen:

When the Israelites escaped Egypt and were walking in the hot desert they were very thirsty and dirty, then Moses waved his wand and miraculously a stream appeared. They all happily drank and took a bathe, but when they came out of the water they found that those evil Westerners stole all their clothes.

So much for allusions - was there anything you wanted to ask me about this particular issue of negotiating with the Russians?

evil Westerners stole all their clothes.
Yuyutsu,
Ukrainians were conned & probably conned each other also just like the mob that followed Moses. Why ? Because they too were blinded by promises of a Western style of perceived easy existence.
What they'll come to realise is that the worst Westerners are those who adopted themselves to the West rather than the Westerners themselves !
I wish you could prove me wrong !

Dear Individual,

I understand - so your view is that the Israelites should have never left Egypt and were better off to remain there as slaves to Pharaoh, also having all their male-babies drowned in the Nile.

Indeed, some Israelites agreed with you, who valued the taste of garlic more than the taste of freedom:

"Meanwhile, the rabble among them had a strong craving for other food, and again the Israelites wept and said, "Who will feed us meat?
We remember the fish we ate freely in Egypt, along with the cucumbers, melons, leeks, onions, and garlic." [Numbers 11:4-5]

I cannot prove you wrong, given that your preference is to be a slave - that's your choice while mine is to fight for freedom.

while mine is to fight for freedom.
Yuyutsu,
Freedom from to & for what ?
Selfishness & other stupidity can never be part of freedom & I trust you realise that !

Dear davidf,

You ask what is there to negotiate.

Reasonably simple I would have thought.

Ukrainians declare to the world they will remain steadfastly neutral and not promise never to join NATO but only when the last Russian soldier has left its territory.

This was Chomsky's take 6 years ago.

http://youtu.be/5Ni3j1mhU5M?t=217

Dear Steele Redux,

The ideal goal is general and complete disarmament. How do we get there? We are in the midst of a war between Ukraine and Russia. The Russians (Putin) contend that Ukraine is naturally a fellow nation with its Slavic companions, Russia and Belarus. Ukraine is fighting against a Russian invasion. It seems reasonable to me for Ukraine not to be part of NATO as Ukraine's membership in NATO would mean encirclement of Russia to a greater degree than exists now. It is reasonable in a world at peace for there to be no military alliances, and all conflicts to be settled by negotiations through the United Nations. That would mean a UN with no nation having a veto power to prevent matters being negotiated. How do we get there? How do we eliminate war as an instrument of national policy? War remains the ultimate settlement of national disputes and a cause of human suffering. If the United Nations became the ultimate instrument for dispute settlement what would prevent the UN from becoming a tyranny. Perhaps the only way to eliminate war and the destruction of the environment is to eliminate humanity. Ant hills wage war on other ant hills, but, unlike human wars, their effects are local and transitory. The continued existence of humanity means a world in conflict and an accelerated extinction of other species. To make a better world get rid of us.

From reports from Ukraine the Russiam military are carpet boming civillian homes and capturing women and children and having them walk in front of tanks as human shields. this is not a war this is genocide, women who refuse are shot on the spot.

Dear Josephus,

What is the source of those reports of Russian atrocities you cite? In war it is said the first casualty is truth, and I doubt if this war is an exception.

" To make a better world get rid of us."

The trouble with that type of 'thinking' (for want of a more appropriate word) is that there'd be no intelligence left to evaluate if it was a better world.

(Stand by for all those deep thinkers who'll show their wokism by saying humans aren't intelligent either).

Dear Individual,

I respect your personal disdain of freedom, but I hope you only treat yourself like that, not your children.

Unselfishness cannot be developed without first being allowed to be selfish, then freely choosing to grow out of it and let it go.
Wisdom cannot be gained without first being allowed to be stupid, then gradually learn.

Do you force your children to take cold showers so they "harden up" and "not be selfish"?
Do you snatch up your children's toys saying "give up these useless stupid things and grow up, now!"?

The question is whether you are a wise saint who no longer requires worldly freedom because you found that inner peace which nothing could shake - or just a lazy person who wouldn't bother to get out and obtain what they rightly deserve in the world.

---

Dear SteeleRedux,

Yes, NATO promised to not expand any further east, but that was at the time of glasnost, when Russia seemed to open up and allow the freedom of its own people, those were other days, when it was believed that Russia could be trusted, not like now when Russian children were forcibly taken away from their parents, placed in tanks not knowing where they go and for many weeks if not months are not allowed to call their parents and tell them that they are hungry.

Ukrainians understand that this would be the fate of their own "neutral" children if they lay down their arms allowing Russia to successfully take over, that without NATO, they too would be sent hungry to invade Poland and Germany and spill their blood in now-friendly foreign fields. Fortunately, Europe has awakened to that reality, including even sleepy Finland: Australia too needs to be shaken up because all this is coming to our shores too.

---

Dear Mhaze,

One day humans WILL be extinct. It's not an IF, just a WHEN.

If as you claim, there would be no intelligence left, that intelligence depends on our humanness and would itself be extinct, then why bother having it even now?

What is there to negotiate?

Nothing, negotiations can only work when the other side has some measure of trustworthiness remaining - listen to Chess grandmaster Garry Kasparov:

"He [Putin] is not a chess player - he is a poker player, and unfortunately over 20 years he used to win every game because he bluffed": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFmAqiU7Jow

Dear davidf,

As always I admire your vision can only applaud its direction on the broader question. I think somewhere within it there should be an examination of the nation state as therein lies more than one of the problems we are trying to solve.

I was struck by this address by the Kenyan ambassador to the UN.

http://youtu.be/ZxZlaiuicYM

Quote

“This situation echoes our history. Kenya and almost every African country was birthed by the ending of empire. Our borders were not of our own drawing. They were drawn in the distant colonial metropoles of London, Paris and Lisbon, with no regard for the ancient nations that they cleaved apart.

Today, across the border of every single African country, live our countrymen with whom we share deep historical, cultural and linguistic bonds.

At independence, had we chosen to pursue states on the basis of ethnic, racial or religious homogeneity, we would still be waging bloody wars these many decades later.

Instead, we agreed that we would settle for the borders that we inherited, but we would still pursue continental political, economic and legal integration. Rather than form nations that looked ever backward into history with a dangerous nostalgia, we chose to look forward to a greatness none of our many nations and peoples had ever known.

We chose to follow the rules of the Organisation of African Unity and the United Nations charter, not because our borders satisfied us, but because we wanted something greater, forged in peace.

We believe that all states formed from empires that have collapsed or retreated have many peoples in them yearning for integration with peoples in neighboring states. This is normal and understandable. After all, who does not want to be joined to their brethren and to make common purpose with them?

However, Kenya rejects such a yearning from being pursued by force. We must complete our recovery from the embers of dead empires in a way that does not plunge us back into new forms of domination and oppression.

Cont..

Cont..
We rejected irredentism and expansionism on any basis, including racial, ethnic, religious or cultural factors. We reject it again today.

Kenya registers its strong concern and opposition to the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states. We further strongly condemn the trend in the last few decades of powerful states, including members of this Security Council, breaching international law with little regard.

Multilateralism lies on its deathbed tonight. It has been assaulted today as it as it has been by other powerful states in the recent past.”

End quote.

However right now the question is what does a negotiated settlement look like and I feel it must include a firm commitment of neutrality from the Ukrainians.

Dear Steele Redux,

Perhaps the problem does not lie within the nature of the nation state. How come Ukraine which is predominately Christian and intensely nationalistic has a Jew as its head of government? The answer may be found in history.

Look up Uniate Church.

Uniate Church - Russia's PeripheryRussia's Periphery (wm.edu)

The answer is found there. The various branches of Christianity hate each other more than they hate the Jews. The respective Orthodox Christian patriarchs of Russia and Ukraine fully support the armed forces of their respective nations.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-03/stan-grant-tells-audience-member-to-leave-qanda/100880520

A non-vetted 'rogue' question?
This world has become so fake, plastic and manufactured
It's like they're saying
"How dare someone ask a non-vetted question?
- When we have a narrative to manufacture and reinforce
We're sorry everyone, opposing views just don't belong here"

I think Q & A is starting to become more than a little bit of B & S

What a load of crap.
This country has officially become completely full of crap.
Completely rotten to the core -
- Nothing but crap from the ground upwards.

A phone call of a woman to her mother in Ukraine who was witnessing these atrocities. Russian soldiers are shooting into crowds of civillians protesting them being there.

Dear Josephus,

I doubt that you heard the phone call. You heard about the phome call from a source of information. What was the source?

The largest nuclear power plant in Europe is on fire, due to Russian shelling. The plant supplies 25% of Ukraine's power.

http://www.theblaze.com/news/source-ukrainian-sniper-reportedly-kills-highly-decorated-russian-general?utm_content=buffer4c67e&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=

A highly decorated Russian general was killed Wednesday, the Daily Mail reported, adding that a military source said a Ukrainian sniper did the job on Major Gen. Andrey Sukhovetsky.

What are the details?
Sukhovetsky was deputy commander of the 41st Combined Arms Army of Russia's Central Military District, the outlet said, adding that Russia's Ministry of Defense had not confirmed his death.

However, Sukhovetsky's colleague Sergey Chipilyov announced his death on social media, and several Russian and Ukrainian news outlets reported the general's demise, the Daily Mail said.

http://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1300505650361441
Russian military are being repelled.

Perhaps a needed sense of proportion may be found in this article about Tolstoy.

https://www.eurekastreet.com.au/article/tolstoy-s-war?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Eureka%20Street%20Weekly%20-%20Friday%204%20March%202022&utm_content=Eureka%20Street%20Weekly%20-%20Friday%204%20March%202022+CID_199e2425141f800491c8917f7e79b5db&utm_source=Jescom%20Newsletters&utm_term=Tolstoys%20war

Dear davidf,

Religious differences certainly play a factor in so many conflicts. The Catholic Church’s tie to the Ustase in Serbia during WW2 is a case in point. By all accounts their brutality eclipsed that of the Nazis.

But historical factors which are ingrained into cultures can be powerful prompts. The toll on Russian through WW2 are hard to grasp. This is a video which sets out the statistics of the human loss during that conflict.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwKPFT-RioU

It is unsurprising the security of buffer states remains a powerful theme for the Russians.

On the Ukrainian side the Holodomor would still be a formative part of their collective consciousness.

It takes a special brand of leadership to move countries past their histories. While Gorbachev may have been of that ilk Putin is certainly not one of them.

Dear Steele Redux,

If Russia had a leader who could talk honestly he could give a speech thusly:

"We have had two terrible invasions, one by Napoleon and one by Hitler. With great sacrifices from the Russian people we have been able to defeat both. We fear another. When countries on our borders belong to NATO the potential exists for another invasion. Our incursions to the west have been in the course of repelling those two invasions. Earlier in our history Alexander Nevsky repelled the Teutonic Knights. Enough! We want to live in peace and security with the west, but security is an illusion when hostile armies sit on our borders. Can you understand?"

Putin is not that leader.

Many Ustase members fled Eastern Europe post WWII and settled in Australia, where they joining the Liberal Party of the Nazi admirer Pig Iron Bob Menzies. Within the Liberal Party they formed the influential faction known as the Uglies. Some of their offspring are still influential in the Liberal right faction today.

Paul, stop talking nonsense Menzies was never a supporter of the Nazi's.

http://joshfrydenberg.com.au/latest-news/menzies-an-enemy-of-tyranny-and-friend-of-freedom/

In Mike Kelly’s case this is more than apt. In an attempt to explain away Labor’s abstention on the UN vote for Palestinian state observer status and Bob Carr’s aggressive campaign to distance Australia from Israel, Kelly has opened a new front in the history wars “Labor’s abstention explained” AJN 18/01.

His portrayal of Sir Robert Menzies as a Nazi sympathiser and appeaser “not concerned for the fate of the Jews of Germany” is a despicable slur. Kelly’s claims are not only patently false but intellectually dishonest.

Menzies understood the true nature of the Nazi threat, referring in his memoirs Afternoon Light, to the “sinister figure of Hitler”. When it came to attributing responsibility for the war, Menzies made clear “the guilt was that of Germany alone”.

"We have had two terrible invasions,....With great sacrifices from the Russian people we have been able to defeat both. We fear another. "

Well there are any number of nations in that region who can use the same 'historic memory' to justify their current hopes and dreams.

Poland has been invaded by Russia 3 times in the past 100 years ( and 4 other times in the preceding centuries)and held as a captive state in the Soviet Empire for 50 years. Thousands were marched off to execution in the forests of eastern Europe and over 1 million were sent to the gulags on the other side of the planet, never to return. They have a right to protect themselves from their greatest threat.

Ukraine was the battlefield for the contest between Russia and Germany twice in the last century, suffering utter devastation each time. Additionally, in the intervening years between those wars, Ukraine was subjected to the greatest act of genocide in history by the same Russians who now seek to reincorporate her into their 'loving' arms.
Does Ukraine have a right to seek to protect herself from a 21st century repeat of her 20th century sufferings?

Equally the Baltic states suffered fates similar to Poland at the hands of the Russian bear throughout the 20th century. In many ways they suffered proportionally more than Poland with mass deportations and enforced Russification of the peoples. Are they allowed to seek protection from a repeat of that?

Russia sees the advance of NATO closer to her borders as a threat. But its not. Its a reaction to the past and ongoing threat that Russia poses to its neighbours.

When Peter the Great reimagined Russia as a great European power, he sought to insert himself into European affairs through expansion. In the ensuing 3 centuries Russia has either been a threat to Europe or complaining that Europe is a threat to them. Russia needs to pull back behind it recognised borders, stop seeking national aggrandisement and finding a way to live beside those its harassed for 3 centuries.

It's an impossible situation when on one hand people desire a strong & safe Nation to live in & on the other hand they desire the glitter of the Western life style which they perceive wrongly to be sustainable !
The West's manipulators hide the fact that they're further down the tube than Russia !

"The West's manipulators hide the fact that they're further down the tube than Russia"

Things aren't perfect in the West but this sentence shows someone who monumentally misunderstands what its like to live in a nation like Russia. When I first started visiting there in the 1980s it was aptly described as a third world country with first world weapons....things have gotten worse since then.

All is okay. Putin was thanking God for something or other today. Not sure what it was, maybe God was smiting Russia's enermy the godless Ukrainians, he tends to do a lot of that, smiting thou enemies stuff.

Good to hear God is on someone's side.

Here is a report of the feelings of both Russia and Ukraine that identify their religious differences.
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/will.ukraines.christians.lose.their.religious.freedoms.if.russia.wins.the.war/138272.htm?f

Ukraineians will never adopt Rusian Orthodoxy.

a third world country with first world weapons..
mhaze,
What are the Yanks & Nato & Un worried about then ? Hell, the Yankers even rely on the Russians to go to the ISS in those backward rockets ?
If you want to find 3rd World conditions you don't need to go to 3rd World countries, you find that out the back of all affluent suburbs anywhere.
Just look at Australia which is a first World Nation & has to out-source it's most vital internet & communication to 3rd world countries. Now, I ask you who you see as the smarter nation ?
The one with the people with brains or the one with the money from exporting finite resources ?

Russian businessman living in USA.

In his post, Konanykhin wrote, "I promise to pay $1,000,000 to the officer(s) who, complying with their constitutional duty, arrest(s) Putin as a war criminal under Russian and international laws."

"Putin," he continued, "is not the Russian president as he came to power as the result of a special operation of blowing up apartment buildings in Russia, then violated the Constitution by eliminating free elections and murdering his opponents."

He concluded, "As an ethnic Russian and a Russia citizen, I see it as my moral duty to facilitate the denazification of Russia. I will continue my assistance to Ukraine in its heroic efforts to withstand the onslaught of Putin's Orda."

Jose'

Have you been able to work out which side God is on in this war? In every war God is on someone's side, why would this war be different

Paul, God is not on either side, but he is present in the actions of those that protect life even of an enemy. The scripture says feed your enemy.
http://www.bing.com/news/search?q=Ukraine+Feed+Russian+Soldier+Captured&qpvt=Ukraine+feed+Russian+soldier+captyred&FORM=EWRE

Dear davidf,

Well put.

Security of borders as a reason for occupying buffer areas is well used tactic. Israel's occupation of the West Bank and the Golan Heights is an obvious example.

Not that this always has to involve invasions. Russia, through forcing the Cuban Missile Crisis, secured the withdrawal of US Jupiter nuclear missiles installations in Turkey.

Currently there are 5 NATO countries which store US nuclear warheads for use by NATO fighter jets.

The expansion of NATO eastwards since 1997 has been extraordinary.

http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/4956/production/_122647781_nato_member_states_10jan_map640-2x-nc.png

A different Russian leader may well have decided to drawn this line in the sand also, although how much of that expansion was in response to Putin's leadership is hard to judge.

Speaking of tactics who else remembers the Salami Tactics described in that quite brilliant show Yes Minister. Still topical after all these years.

http://youtu.be/o861Ka9TtT4

DavidF said- "Perhaps the only way to eliminate war and the destruction of the environment is to eliminate humanity. "

Answer- So war is human nature- Hobbes seems to believe this- bellum omnium contra omnes- the condition of man is a condition of "war of everyone against everyone". At least it's better than the naive John Locke in Principles of Democracy and his notion of peaceful man in a condition of nature- the proverbial deer probably didn't think of man as peaceful- perhaps Locke in the English Civil War was as depressed as Tolstoy was in the Napoleonic Wars a century later- and the myth of the elitist beneficiaries of war- they both bastardized Aristotle's Politics and the seventh system of "government by law". But perhaps if there was less people there would be less war- people would be more valued- supply and demand. In science they talk of the four fold root of reason- in a sense- the idea that one system can't be used at all scales- but law hasn't realized this yet- panacea's and pancreatic cancers- both deadly.

Kudos to David F- though perhaps he was being ironic- interesting when people say the truth through error

individual,

The Russian space programme is part of their military. So yes, a third world country with first world weapons.

I know its a normal human trait to assume the society they know best is worse than a society they know little about, but its rarely true. Imagine you live overseas. What would you likely see about Australia - beaches or outer suburbs? Same with Russia. You see the cities, the parades, the landscape - you don't see 1950s villages, the rampant alcoholism (highest in the world among men).

I'll preface this by noting that's its been 10 years since I spent any time outside a major Russian city. The difference in wealth and wellbeing between the cities and the rest is significant in Russia.
Russians who live outside the cities live much as they have for the last century. (I used to spend a lot of time in a town called Nakhodka. It was primarily built in the 1950s but was alreayd run-down. In the 1980's the government sought to improve the living standards of the population by building a whole new suburb called Vostochny - new apartments, new jobs, new shops, new facilities. The people moved and Nakhodka was all but abandoned. But 10 years later as the new buildings started to deteriorate, more and more moved back to Nakhodka to live as their grandparents had.)

The per capita GDP (PPP) of Russia is less than half that of Australia while being less equal (higher GINI) than us.

No one who has actually visited Russia and got out of the cities would think for a moment that their lot is better than ours. That's why the Russia suicide rate is twice that here.

I've only ever been to Ukraine once - Odessa- but my impression was that it was even worse than Russia. Little wonder that they want in to the EU.

Might I recommend a book by Theodore Dalrymple called "The Wilder Shores of Marx". Its more about the state of Marxist nations in the 1980s but little has changed since then.

Dear mhaze,

I am extremely glad to be an old man living in Australia. I am probably better off living here than in most other countries including the US where I was born. In fact living in this country may be the main reason I am still alive at 96.

The Russian space programme is part of their military.
mhaze,
I'd imagine so is everyone else's technology when it comes to the crunch. Not many would know what really led to this invasion but my gut instinct tells me that Ukraine going Western would critically if not fatally weaken Russia as a controlling power on the World stage, particularly when peace is concerned.
Weaken Russia & World Peace is jeopardised.
I could be wrong but that's how I see it.

Thanks mhaze for the information on
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Dalrymple

He appears from the Wikipedia article to have some valid and illuminating points.

However-

I'm cautious/ suspicious/ sceptical of secular Hebrew's like "Theodore Dalrymple aka Anthony Malcolm Daniels" and other potential crypto-ethnicities claiming understanding of cultures other than their own.

There are some notable foreigners that have rejected their own culture in the service of what they perceive as a superior Anglo-British one- I'm not sure if it's superior- it's perhaps an arbitrary judgement- but it's my culture.

Some of Freud's claims on the dangerous crowd for example appear to be pure projection of secular Hebrew's fears on wider culture- which probably was a valid concern for Hebrew's though not something of concern to all. Jung seems to offer subtle comment on this- paraphrasing "you can't understand health by studying sickness".

Edward Bernays (Freud's nephew and one of the most powerful unknown figures in the world- and founders of consumer culture) on the other hand saw "the dangerous crowd" as perhaps something to exploit. Perhaps seeing himself as a conquering hero from a dominant exotic culture.

I go back to The Declaration and ask if this is really "a government of the people by and for the people"- when the people have been subverted. What is "a people"- in the traditional sense a people is a kinship group- Herodotus talked about defining culture.

Even Ayn Rand despite her "Objectivist call to life and productivity" may have made this call in the interest of Hebrew's- to create a secular society that would give Hebrew's a place- rather than for the interest of the then still dominant (in 1925) Anglo-Americans.

Anglo-British people should be looking primarily to their own people for their own cultural direction- but sadly the protectors of this cultural realm in the universities have often betrayed us

In a sense the loss of our own cultural direction because of multiculturalism and secularism (something that Theodore Dalrymple ironically seems to recognise) is perhaps the very cause of the youth and underclass misdirection in contemporary Britain.

Interesting that he writes for Taki's Magazine- Greek Paleo-Conservative.

I suspect that some people and groups are "playing both sides against the middle" because they don't have a vested interest in the culture or ethnicity because they don't have blood ties or they have divided ones.

If you can get your enemy to give up their principles while you keep your own then you can potentially dominate them- or they can dominate you

Perhaps the Psycho-Medical community is creating problems for itself to solve- thereby annexing funds in the form of taxation and otherwise- this given the public NHS might be especially true in the UK- in a complex form of ethno-social dominance. But I question the value to the community over more traditional forms- think placebo.

Perhaps this has wider implications for geo-politics- and it's ethno-social games.

Sorry for the diversion.

My prediction is; Either we'll have WW3 because the Yankers will engage or, Ukraine will be once again part of Russia once the Ukrainians realise that all the Western promises are just one big let-down !

Dear individual,

And why don't you think the Ukrainians could pull of another Afghanistan and wear the Russians down?

SteeleRedux,
And, end up like Afghanistan ? I doubt they're that blinded THAT much by Western guile !

http://www.npr.org/live-updates/2022/03/07/ukraine-russia-nuclear-plants-humanitarian

The numbers, from Feb. 24 to March 7, are preliminary. In addition to thousands of deaths, Russia’s military has lost 290 tanks, 999 armored vehicles, 46 aircraft and 68 helicopters, according to Ukraine’s defense ministry.

Russia’s defense ministry said on Monday that it has “wiped out 2,396 Ukrainian military facilities,” according to state-run Tass media. It did not offer a casualty estimate for its foe.

Citing Russian Defense Ministry spokesman Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov, Tass says the Russian force has “destroyed 827 Ukrainian tanks and other combat armored vehicles," along with more than 300 field artillery guns and mortars and 78 drones.

Ukrainian Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov said Russia's forces have been "stopped" at the cities of Kyiv and Kharkiv, which have suffered intense shelling.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/7/russian-military-conscripts-will-not-go-to-ukraine-putin-liveblog

Ukraine’s military intelligence has said that Ukrainian forces have killed a Russian general near the besieged city of Kharkiv, the second Russian senior commander to die in the invasion.

Major General Vitaly Gerasimov, first deputy commander of Russia’s 41st army, was killed on Monday, the Chief Directorate of Intelligence of Ukraine’s defence ministry said in a statement.

Ukraine says its forces have killed more than 11,000 Russian troops. Russia has confirmed about 500 losses. Neither side has disclosed Ukrainian casualties

According to the world's number one political nut job Dangerous Donald, yes Putin is only number two, the way for America to defeat Russia is to paint Chinese flags on F-22's and bomb Russian cities. Then blame it on China, a nuclear war between Russia and China would follow. Some said there was a mad man in North Korea, I think the bloke in North Carolina beats him hands down.

Trump said this while fund raising with Republican' s, they're as crazy as Donald, so it would have opened their wallets. This guy could be the next President of the United States. Ahhhhhhhhh!

"According to the world's number one political nut job Dangerous Donald, yes Putin is only number two, the way for America to defeat Russia is to paint Chinese flags on F-22's and bomb Russian cities."

If you watch the video, you'll see it was a joke.

Trump told it as a joke.
The audience laughed because they got the joke.
Anyone with an IQ that starts with a '1' can see its a joke.

Unsurprisingly, it went over your head.

"I am extremely glad to be an old man living in Australia."

Despite the potential hyperbole, I think its very true that Australia is currently one of the better places on earth to be living....on average and for those who want to live a western lifestyle.

Unfortunately many see only the bad and imagine they only see good in those places they know little about. T'was always thus. Some people look at the Mona Lisa and only see the cracks in the paint. Others see the smile.

But we are on a bad trajectory and I'm not at all sure it'll still be the case that we are the envy of most of the planet in a generation.

Canem Malum,

"Theodore Dalrymple...claiming understanding of cultures other than their own."

He doesn't really make that claim. Most of his writing as regards other locales is about using them to illuminate our own society. By observing other societies it can bring clarity to our own.

One insight I loved was his thoughts on the frivolity of capitalism. We all know that critics of capitalism will claim its a waste to cater to minor differences in taste by making multiple versions of a product. eg while have multiple brands of toothpaste on the shelves?
He points out that the communist alternative where 'rational' production means only one version is made, ends up with a shoddy, unchanging product and uninspiring product. This is in relation to a visit to a 'supermarket' in Albania.

Josephus,

Its really fraught to be accepting of any casualty numbers at this early stage.....fog of war and all that.

It seems fairly clear that no matter how it goes from here, the long term results don't look promising for Putin. Finally destroying the Ukrainian forces will take a lot longer yet and will result in devastation of the country's infrastructure and its people. A victorious Russia will end up with an utterly destitute 'buffer zone'. Additionally it will have a peoples who are totally resistant to integration in mother Russia and where a portion will forcibly oppose the occupier. That will mean Russia will need to station an unacceptable number of troops there to maintain control.

Clearly the Russians thought they'd achieve a quick, clean conquest. That's not going to happen. So SR's Afghanistan analogy is apt

Thanks mhaze for your feedback-

I've been looking at things through the filter of counter intelligence-

I cautiously agreed that "he appears from the Wikipedia article to have some valid and illuminating points"

"By observing other societies it can bring clarity to our own."- Yes but we should be doing our own observing not allowing others to tell us in our culture what is important- it's a subtle point. This is what Bernays did in the 1940s when he sold mass manufactured products based on emotional manipulation and Freudism.

Yes I like your and his point about Capitalism vs Communism.

Did you understand my point about some players potentially "playing both sides against the middle"?

Apparently one can make toothpaste from baking soda/ powder if things get desperate enough.

There's a scene in The Good Shepherd movie that demonstrates the concept of The Hall Of Mirrors- when two people claim to be the same person- so extreme care needs to be exercised getting information from foreigners- without becoming paranoid. Foreign powers aim to distort the realities of their targets- even friendly ones. It's a subtle and probably boring concept.

There is an assumption that if one side lose their allies lose- but some players win whoever loses- this is playing the game at a different level.

Just don't forget that the West is not the west it was during the cold war, there's a new West now with new players & new rules & new agenda !

mhaze, your man Trump is the joke, if its not telling people to drink disinfectant to cure Covid, its bombing Russia with phony jets. Come on the guys a fruitcake, but he's your fruitcake.

Good sense may well be prevailing, at least on one side.

"Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said he had "cooled down" about Ukraine's bid to join NATO."

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraines-zelensky-says-cooled-joining-181721289.html

"telling people to drink disinfectant to cure Covid"

As I explained to you are the time, he didn't say that. You fell (as you always do) for hype. On that occasion his discussion was carefully truncated to give the wrong impression to those who oh so anxiously fell for it.

"its bombing Russia with phony jets"

Well Paul you should try very hard to NOT view the video on that because then you'll learn the truth and after all this time I'm not sure you'd be able to handle that, let alone recognise it.

Like I said,...an IQ that starts with '1' is a pre-requisite.

BTW, Resident Biden informed the world today that Putin invaded Russia.

Well Trump's Putin Cheer Squad is certainly coming out of the woodwork.

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/amp/rcna19543

“Remember that Zelenskyy is a thug,” Cawthorn said in a video obtained by WRAL. “Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies.”

Woke ideologies? The Trump madness still infecting everything it seems.