Peppy you gave North Korea as example and try to prove that being rude with freedom of expression is better than being polite but not to have right for expression.
Peppy I think you are little bit slow, you didn't get what I told you, I repeat and make it clear:
We have three options:
1. Being polite without freedom of expression. (It is Worse)
2. Being rude "and poking poo as you said" and abuse others with freedom of expression. (it is bad)
3. Being polite with freedom of expression. (it is good).

I told you before that we don't have to choose between bad and worse, we can choose between bad, worse and good. North Korea is the example for worse, your country or your culture is example for bad (poking poo with freedom) , Australia is example for the third option, freedom of expression without abusing others and without poking poo.

Peppy I said religious people "might" be majority, if I use the word "Maybe" or "might" it is not lying , but if someone like you says 8% are religious (without proof, and without mentioning "might"), with confidence, then it is not right.

BOAZ_David

please don't waste time with Peppy regarding personal matters, Peppy thinks if someone like you answers and argue with people it means that person is not nice.

Lets spend time on debates, not on personal things. If you don't answer him, he will stop. Thanks.

CJ Morgan
which arrogant and patronising statement are you talking about?

People Against Live Exports &

You asked me: "Who do you think should be the head of the Muslim leaders in Australia?"

There two things that you have mixed them together, you should not.
1. Leadership. 2. Muslim cleric (Mufti).
A Muslim cleric (Mufti) is NOT necessarily a leader.
A leader is NOT necessarily a cleric.

A cleric is a teacher, is a source for interpretation of religious texts, is a person who will be able to find out the new Shariah law according the new "time" and "place".

We can have 100 or 1000 or more clerics in a society with different views and interpretation of religious texts , and Muslims can choose each of them and follow that interpretation and practise their religion base on that idea.
Like many different flowers , each flower has different nice smell, all of flowers are nice !

I make it clear that all Muslim clerics in Australia (and in the world) are good (ofcourse as long as they have not committed sin and crime) and I support all of them.

You asked about leader,
Answer: Every Muslim is a leader.
In Islam every Muslim is a leader if he understands Quran , Sunnah (policy and comments of prophet in life)and Intelligence. Then if that Muslim comes to conclusion that must support John Howard for sending Australian army to Iraq or not, that person is a leader and can understand what Quran says and what is the Shariah Law and therefore what should be the decision for supporting or for condemning. Every Muslim is a leader.

Now you might say: ok if every Muslim is a leader, but we need one person to organise them, to bring them together, and to do many other things which is necessary for society.
I answer: yes we need, and that person's position is administrator, or organiser, or anything else you want to call him/her.
like prime minister that is elected by citizens.
So I admit that it is good to have a representative who can sometimes speak out on behalf of Muslims. As spokeman.

Oz

Please allow me to give you a good example why two leaders or more dont work.
Here in Australia we have a law that all Animals must be pre stunned for humane reasons.
Every now and then you have Muslim reps coming to Australia demanding thats changed.
Of course they always say its a requiremnent of Allah there by putting the Aussie Muslims in a unfair and difficult position.

Ie Do they follow Allah or Australian Laws?
in fact the question then must be asked - Is it really possible for Muslims to intergrate into Western Countries given our differences?

While I am aware there are many other councils[ 31 actually] AFIC are the elected leaders by the Muslim people in Australia.

The new Mufti from what I know so far he will do a good job.


Australian Muslim Leaders have a huge task as you rightfully pointed out because they must work with people from many different countries and often oppposing ideas.

I understand that its hard because Muslim people are raised to follow religion and there is no difference between religion and laws.


Here we must ALL obey the same laws in Australia first and then are free to follow our own religions.

That is why we need really wise Muslim leaders who are prepaired to live in 2007 in Australia.

I hope that makes sense to you.

"please don't waste time with Peppy"

ALJAZEERA_OZ,

You want to run away and hide because I might hurt your feelings. Afraid of a real debate? Well good luck with your new best friend Boaz David. One thing I might suggest though. Check out his previous posts. You'll find he hates Islam, thinks Mohammad and the Koran are evil and that all Moslems will eventually have to be exterminated. So if you like a friend who would like to see you dead instead of someone who gives a robust debate then be my guest. I'm sure you'll both get on like a house on fire.

"Can you share with me what specific thing showed you I'm 'not nice' ?"

Boaz David,

I've seen you call people on this site who you don't agree with "evil" amongst other things. You think you should be able to sit in judgement of others and not be judged yourself? What did Jesus say about that you hypocrite.

Why don't I think you are nice? I don't know, maybe it's because you don't believe in democracy. Or that you see nothing wrong with Dictators oppressing and torturing and killing their people. Or that you are a racist who believes in White Supremacy. Or that you believe in violence and don't abject to the killing of women and children as long as the dead aren't "Christians". Or maybe it's your general hypocrisy and how you cloak your hatred of people with a perverted twisted version of Christianity. Take your pick. Jesus would be ashamed of you.

People against live

You again mixed two different words: "Muslim cleric" with "Leader" and I don't know which one you are talking about.

As I said these two are different, I think you are talking about the first one, not the second one. We don't have any particular person as the leader for Muslims in Australia (and not even in the world) at the moment. So when you are talking about Muslim leaders I think you mean Muslim clerics (Muftis), yes in that case you are right we need many Muslim clerics in the world including Australia to give a suitable interpretation of religious texts (like Quran) to the Muslims, an interpretation which will enable Muslims to handle their new problems with the new conditions in this century.

Peppy if Boaz is against religion its fine with me , still I can debate and argue with him, as long as he is polite.
If he has not been polite in the past, that is THE PAST, we should talk about PRESENT, people might have changed, if one day Boaz will be rude to me then I will answer him, but I won't judge about him by looking at his past posts.
My suggestion to you , to BOAZ_David and to MYSELF is that we should try to be POLITE and FRIENDLY.
please from this moment let's three of us argue about our different views and ideas but in a very polite manner.

Peppy will you accept?

BOAZ will you accept?

from this moment I will be friendly and polite with Peppy and BOAZ as long as they are the same. :)

Now please lets talk about more important things.

BOAZ I am ready...you can say anything you want about Islam, I will try to answer you, God willing. Tell me what makes you think that religion is evil? Do you believe in existence of God or not?

BOAZ shoot your first attack lol
I am waiting