On Thurseday 16th August 2007 an Australian Muslim cleric has sent an open letter to Prime Minister John Howard about:
-the situation of Muslims and Non Muslims in Australia,
-discrimination about the reaction of Australian government to terrorist acts when the suspect is Non Muslim ,
-also regarding Muslims who have been insulted,
-advising and warning! John Howard about few issues such as possible future problem for the Australian National Security if the discrimination continues and Muslims get insulted more than this.

Sheikh Haron in his letter to John Howard has said: " Dr ... commented that he was surprised that the trained doctors in the UK had opted to use explosive devises when they were clearly amateurs, instead of utilizing their medical knowledge and skill, for example in the spread of diseases, to be far more effective."

Sheikh Haron has asked the Prime Minister: " Isn't it instructing terrorist? Isn't it a proposal for their next operation to choose a better target to be more effective? Isn't it giving a message and guideline to terrorists?"

This Muslim cleric is trying to question Prime Minister why the reaction of the government to terrorist acts made by Muslim suspect is not similar to the Non Muslim suspect?

Do you think Sheikh Haron is right? Do you think there is not any difference between Muslims and Non Muslims if they instruct terrorism?

Now you should get this right

Is a muslim a person or a religious meaning that this person has taken the faith of islam fully.

When you refer to non muslim are you refering to a person who has not taken on the faith of islam.
Refereing to catholics,prodostants,buddists, jewish,mormons and the list goes on.

If they wish to portray themselves as per their religion instead of iraqi australian, Indian australians and so forth then why should we take them shoving their religon down our throuts as such.

When they decide to keep their religon and call themselves appropriatly then things may change,but until they work out that this is australia and we have laws to protect what freedoms we have then the problem will be solved.

"Writing letters to heads of State" is without question a VERY 'Islamic' thing to do.
Once Mohammad had unified most of the Arabian Peninsula, he set his imperialistic gaze further afield and sent letters to the Persian and Byzantine Kings. (I'd love to see the one he sent to the king of Ethiopia, because the Muslims only survived due to his protection when the fled Mecca)
In essense, his letters said as follows:

"Accept Islam and you and your property will be safe" (sounds like an outright extortion threat to me)

So, letters to heads of state should be interpreted in THAT light, as it would very much be in the mind of those such as this Sheikh as he wrote them.

AMAZING INTERACTION.
Muslims, non muslims in UK TV forum.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8AJ7KvYPD8 9 mins

In this video, we see some interesting sociological phenomena.

1/ 'Christian' filtration of Islam by converts TO Islam from Irish Catholicism. The lady who is a former Irish Catholic is actually expressing CHRISTIAN values as she combats the more educated and Islamically correct Anjem Choudary. She simply cannot accept the real Islam that Choudery is ranting at her. Why? because her Christian background simply does not contain those values of tolerance, love and not forcing people into your faith.

2/ Islamic Fundamentalism. Anjem Choudery is trying to dominate the discussion at the slightest deviation from true "Islam".

CONCLUSION. Many Westerners with 'Christian' background convert to Islam from total ignorance of its true nature. Then...its too late.
So they try to re-shape "Islam" in their minds to be more compatable with the tolerant values of their own former faith.
Then, to their shock, they meet a 'real' Muslim....like Choudary.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo

Wow, I've never seen thursday spelt with an 'e' before.

I stopped reading at this point;

"...-discrimination about the reaction of Australian government to terrorist acts when the suspect is Non Muslim ,..."

YA got some examples of this?...

Hi Tapp and BOAZ_David

Thanks for your comments but you both talking about different subjects , you didn't answer my question.

The question is:
Do you think the reaction of Australian government to terrorist acts made by Non Muslim suspect will be similar and equal to its reaction to Muslim suspect if both of them have instructed terrorism on the air in a live show "Sunrise" on national TV? Or you think that the Australian government will discriminate between Muslim victims and Non Muslim victims?
If Dr Mohammad Haneef would make such statements on Wednesday 4th July 2007 in a live program on Channel 7 , instead of Dr Keith Suter, do you think the reaction of the Australian government would be the same? Please try to be fair , don't take any one's side , think about this question and truely try to be realistic, then let me know what you think? Thanks

P_Dox,

For a good example of how Australia might react to a non-islamic fundamentalist terrorist attack, have a look at America when they realised that it was a white christian guy who blew up the Oklahoma state building.

Hi James
We are talking about Australia, not America. Aren't these two different countries? Or you want to say , like many others, that Australia is a puppy dog of America so that's why we can give an example from USA if we are asked "example" from Australia?
I don't think so. :)

So we are victimising the Muslims again.They just don't get it.If Australian was a Muslim country and Christians were committing terrorism here all Christians would be either dead or expelled.Hezbolah want to wipe Israel from the map and most Muslims think that this is a normal way of thinking.Is it any wonder we are suspicious of them?

You have freedom of expression here so treasure what doesn't exist in most Islamic countries.

Hi StG niceeee to meeeeet you :)

Well ... are you serious? Haven't you seen Thursday with an "e" before? Oh that's bad, I just typed "Thurseday" and found 91 sites on net written with an "e". I am happy I am the first person to let you know that Thurseday is common, although "Thursday" is correct one.

I am also happy that you notice the details, so I expect you more than others to notice the details of the question of this thread 'without talking about other subjects, please let me know what your answer is?

By the way for the example of "terrorist acts by Non Muslim suspect and the reaction of government to that" I refer you to the thread posted by David_BN in this forum.

:) (special smilee with an extra "e" 4 u)

P_Dox,

Yes Australia is a seperate nation from the US, and long may it remain so.

I was pointing more at the public reaction. Just after the Oklahoma bombing, everyone assumed it was an arabic muslim who had done it, because they had been conditioned by previous events and a media message that said most terrorists are arabic muslims. The shock and horror when it was discovered that the brutal act was carried out by a white christian american knocked everyone back on their heels. They didn't know what to do.

I think if the situation happened here you would get a similar reaction. For a long time now we have become conditioned to equate terrorism with islamic fundamentalism, the mental shifting of gears to accomodate a white christian terrorist would be quite difficult for a lot of people.

James Purser,
You are right and in view of the events around the world, if I were to investigate a terrorist bombing here, i would certainly start in SW Sydney. Muslims have been associated with a number of violent acts here and the shoot up of Lakemba police station could be classed as a terrorist act.

P_Dox. If that letter was open, can you give us a link.

James Purser,

The identity of the OKC bomber may have come as a surprise to many Americans. But I don't think it's true to say they "didn't know what to do."

They executed him.

His white skin did not save him.

The only American of note who tried to glorify McVeigh was actually a well-known LEFT wing author, Gore Vidal. Here is a link to Vidal's rant in Vanity Fair.

http://www.geocities.com/gorevidal3000/tim.htm

McVeigh did it to avenge Waco you see?

Just as the London bombers, all of them successful and amateurish, allegedly did it to avenge, well, something.

It can never be simply a case of a twisted ideology acting on twisted minds, can it?

Again are we trying to whip up a bit of a storm in a tea cup?
The bloke is clearly unaware he would have his head removed in some country's for writing a letter to the head of state, most Muslim country's would not have that freedom would they?
can it be true that he thinks wearing cloths developed for extreme desert heat in our city's is not an effort by this community to separate its self from us?
In time minority extreme rudeness to those who gave them a second chance at life may well bring about discrimination.
It will be people like this fool who are to blame.

P_Dox,

I find it amusing that many of the people on this web site are obsessed with Islam and are constantly going on about how the Islamic bogeyman is going to get us. Funny how Islam has been around for over a thousand years and they still haven't taken us over. Funny also that the only people who are constantly trying to ram religion down our throats claim to believe in the Bible.

Anyway P_Dox, if you're going to open up this subject again for the 1000th time you might at least let us see the whole letter and not just your interpretation of it.

Banjo you asked a link for the Sheikh's letter. Why don't you try Aljazeera? :)

Peppy you are right, people should see at least the whole letter, not just reading the interpretation of the letter.

If P_Dox doesn't show the letter, Aljazeera_Oz will be on the way to release it !

stevenlmeyer,

Yep they executed him. However I was referring to the public reaction. The American public for a long time could not process the fact that it was an american who had committed such an act.

P Dox
I would like to read his whole letter before I made a comment.
We dont know what he was thinking really and I guess saying Drs could use their skills for for more harmful results may have been his way of saying to the PM.
Dont put ideas in their heads.
There are many people who really appreciate Australia has given them a second chance in life andlove Australia as much as we do.
Anything is only as good as its leaders.
So we need good strong muslim leaders here in Australia.
Sincerce honest with minus attitude.

I am not sure we have that to be honest. There are dishonest people in all walks of life- Just look at our Governments!
I totally however agree one hundred percent with Belly regarding the dress and especially the veil and head gear.
Its scarey AND Insulting. It says -
- but we dont believe in your laws, religion. It say`s we have our OWN laws.

I DONT want this dress change in Australia.
I DONT LIKE IT.

You know what?
I have a dam right to say how I feel IN MY OWN COUNTRY.

Ban Head gear in Australia.

Keep Australia Australian and NO ritual Slaughter without pre stunning either while I am at it. Thats another insult thinking they can turn Australia into a country where we ALL praise Allah.
Either mix in and be one of us - or GO HOME

PS Belly Whats kevin Russ doing about this ritual slaughter proposal?
Is he objecting to having animals slaughtered without pr stunning??

Not sure what Kevin Russ is up to did he kick the first goal on Saturday?
Kevin Rudd however has declined to let me speak for him.
Now blinded by my racist stupidity I am concerned about that dress and that hood and the idea that I have no right to be.
Seems white Anglo Saxons are the only race unable to discriminate against others.

Belly
Very funny. You knew darn well I meant Kevin Rudd.
I would have thought you would have appreciated that in place of the Milky bar Kid.
Come on Belly its your party. You want them to win dont you?
Do you have any idea how many millions of Australians would vote for him if he made that an election issue.?

This goes far beyond just Animal Welfare Groups belly and the public are not silly enough not to see it as a insult and an attempt to change Australia into islam in one fowl sweep.

So how about you do us all a favour and find out if Kevin really is up to the job and smart enough to grab an oportunity like this.

He really did miss a Golden Oportunity to nail Downer and Vaile and Howard at the AWB enquiry by disclosing the fact AWB are also live exporters.
I am talking about clever policies here belly. Right at the same time AWB enquiry was running 60 minutes did there fifth documentry on live exports.

If Kevin had dumped the truth that AWB were live exporters to the public -he most certainly would have grabbed the nations attention.

Costello has just sneaked something else through using the ACCC to gag Animal Welfare groups.

Its not only going to effect them but its the end of free speech in this country.

These are all the things that kevin could cash in on belly[big time].

Lets see if this man really is ready to lead.
So please belly as its your party can you make some enquires and bring to their attention the above issues.

If he doesnt care about Australia being turned into an Islam ritual Slaughter country and Costello stopping freedom on speach then i guess hes not the man
If he does you might just be suprised at the millions who will finally leave Howard.
Enough is Enough.

Pale,
To the best of my knowledge both major parties have an agreement not to raise migration and associated issues during election campaigns.

I have been told this goes back to Bob Hawkes days.

James Purser wrote:

>>The American public for a long time could not process the fact that it was an american who had committed such an act.>>

What on Earth does that statement mean?

Apart from a few loons like Gore Vidal, most Americans had no more difficulty processing the fact that an American had committed an act of terrorism than Australians had processing the fact that a Tasmanian farmer was a mass murderer. After the initial shock they dealt with it.

By contrast it is interesting that nearly five years after 9 / 11 most Muslims are still in denial over Arab involvement in 9 / 11.

See:

http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=253

Now there we have a case of people being unable to "process" facts.

A DOCUMENTARY on AFGHANISTAN shown on BBC yesterday will reveal a major reason why 'we' 'BibleBashers' are constantly warning of the 'Islamic Bogeyman coming to get us'.

In that doco, they showed very mainstream Muslim families in Kabul and Peshawar Pakistan. A mother, who covered her face completely, has a little boy around 3 yrs old she named 'Osama'.
Here she is, breast feeding him, and telling the camera that she hopes he becomes a Shaheed....martyr.. suicide murderer. "Then I'll be proud..I don't mind sacrificing him for that" she said.

Can anyone actually enter into the workings of such a deluded brain ?

Then...to cap it all off, she spoke about the glories of Paradise.
72 virgins for the man, and lots of drinks, and she was then asked "What is there in Paradise for the woman" she said "Oh..she gets to sit beside her husband".. ? WHAT?_?_?_? while he is continually ravashing recycled virgins,...she is 'beside her husband' and that...is "paradise" ?

Forgive me for just about having a hyper coronary on this, but I'm almost speechless..no words can encompass the level of delusion and depravity of this version of "Paradise" not to mention the misogynistic nature.. but what REALLY blows my mind, is that the woman/wife is actually so far gone in her head, that she not only approves of this, but promotes it.

The final straw is when they say "We speak of Islam and the threat of the unbelievers every day"

...and you wonder why we rant ? :)

I know of NO OTHER religious system even remotely close to this. THAT is probably why we 'discriminate'.

Boazy, you're raving again. Of course we know that Muslims hold strange beliefs that are even sillier than those held by Christians, if that's possible. Personally, fanciful ideas about a post-mortem "Paradise" aren't much stranger than apocalyptic notions about bar codes etc.

Why don't you have a nice cuppa and a good lie down? There's a good fellow...

Boaz,

If you're in such a panic about the beliefs of a bunch of uneducated peasants who probably couldn't find Australia on a map then you need serious help. There are a great many threats. Ignorant peasants in the Middle East are very, very far down on the list. If you live in Australia you have more chance of being killed by lightening than by terrorists, so make sure there's no clouds in the sky before you go out today.

Boaz,"she gets to sit beside him," Well someone has to hold his hat!

My letter to Mr Howard:
Dear Mr Howard,
I hope I find you in fine spirits with the APEC summit just around the corner. Wow how exciting this must be for you. A chance to show the world how mature and security conscience Australia has become. I am sure that Kings Cross and Bondi will be pristine white and sparkling for the visit. Have you chosen your wardrobe for the occasion yet? I would consider maybe a bit of a heel to help your back and neck, please dont take offence I am not a giant either and know full well how hard it is to look up to everyone. Mrs Howard must be thrilled. I am sure she will make nice friends with the other ladies who will all be doing their own girly things while the men talk. Now dont forget to mind your manners and only use company cars, taxis are renowned for breeding bacteria. You wouldnt want a virus while entertaining would you. Oh, and a last thought, I am sure it would make a good impression if you had your eyebrows combed.
P.S: Dont insult anyone with oil, money or both.

Banjo
Banjo Said.
Pale,
To the best of my knowledge both major parties have an agreement not to raise migration and associated issues during election campaigns.

I have been told this goes back to Bob Hawkes days.
Posted by Banjo, Sunday, 26 August 2007 8:54:49 AM

PALE replies
Banjo that IS interesting. Thanks for that. Lucky neither of these topics come under migration then isnt it.

I always knew Animal Welfare codes[ or the lack of them] would come in handy for something.

Which reminds me did anybody hear the news today where Minister Kevin Andrwes is encouraging "freedom of speech".
Only problem is-
They forgot! to Tell Peter Costello Apparently

Hello all friends :)
sorry I couldn't reply earlier because yesterday I replied 4 times to the same thread so I had to wait for 24 hours lol

ok I'll upload the letter here, anyone has idea how? how much limit space do we have here on thread's reply?

Before you all prematurely bag David Boaz,study carefully the demise of Western civilisation in Europe,as they compromise themselves into servility to appease Islamic aggression in order to keep the peace.

Also study carefully what has happened in Malaysia,where a New Muslim state makes serfs of the infidels.

" study carefully the demise of Western civilisation in Europe "

Has anybody told the Europeans that their civilisation has "demised"? Strange because last time I checked Europe was still Western, Civilised, powerful, rich, white, etc. Check the list of the richest and best educated nations on earth. Most of them are European. Just because the Europeans don't follow the Americans into Bible Bashing fundamentalism doesn't mean their civilisation isn't still rich, powerful and vibrant.

Pale,
I saw your bit about the veil and headgear and assumed that you were asking Belly to get Kevin Rudd to comment on that. But turns out you were referring to the method of animal slaughter.

Now there you go CJ.. referring to 'bar codes' as if I actually them as a reality in connection with the apocalypse... when in truth, while it always remains a possibility, I debunked that specific claim of those propounding it 'as' fact.

But..don't let the facts get in the way of a good 'BOAZ bash'...
There you go.. a slight twisting of information, in line with your character assassination drive. There's only one problem CJ.. 'others' can actually read also :)

PEPPY.. I do take your point on board about these whacky ideas, but the problem is...there are people in Australia, who absolutely believe in this kind of thing. Would you care to wager odds on this kind of belief being at the root of those currently incarcerated on charges of terrorism ?

The very existence of this thread, and the subject matter.. is 'Australian' and therefore is deserving of serious attention.

While it might be true that not all Muslims (like yourself) hold such 'colorful' views, the fact is, many do, and because those are in Australia, we have not only a right, but a responsibility to expose them. (Radicals)

If exposing radicals causes some discomfort, we can only express regret for this, but truth is truth.

This is a link to the letter of Sheikh Haron to the Prime Minister John Howard as you requested.
The letter was like this when a Muslim friend of mine recieved it , it has been cut, some parts of that are covered.

People Against Live ...
Actually the letter is not rude , he has respectfully written a letter to PM. My interpretation from the letter might have been wrong in the beginning. :)

http://www.msnusers.com/PDox/links.msnw

Boaz,

I have no problem with exposing radicals though why you do it on this site instead of reporting it to the authorities I don't quite understand. My problem is the way you exaggerate and stereotype to the point of being deceitful. You're not interested in the truth. Your type have been preaching the end of the world for 2000 years and no matter how many times you get it wrong you'll just keep going on like a broken record. For now the bogeyman flavour of the month is the Muslims, before that it was the Communists and and the Asians, and years from now it will be some other group you'll be demonising.

Peppy said: "Has anybody told the Europeans that their civilisation has "demised"?"

Most objective observers would probably agree that Western civilization is in steep decline. Demographic suicide (below replacement birth rates combined with mass Third World immigration), militant secularism, and a sense of civilizational self-loathing are collectively enervating the West. The same self-destructive trends are being repeated across the Western world - from Australia-New Zealand to North America to Western Europe.

Look at ultra-secular, social welfarist Sweden for example. One article speculates:

"Native Swedes, who live in a country that was one of the most ethnically homogeneous nations in the world only 30 years ago, will be a minority in their own country within a few decades, if current trends continue. Sweden is self-destructing at a pace that is probably unprecedented in history, but for the extreme Left, even this isn't fast enough."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/2278

Immigrants from mainly Muslim backgrounds are waging a campaign against the host Swedish population. This is evident in Malmö, the country's third largest city, which is set to become the first Scandinavian city with a Muslim majority in a few years. To quote the same article again:

"The wave of robberies the city of Malmö is experiencing is part of a "war against the Swedes." This is the explanation given by young robbers from immigrant backgrounds. "When we are in the city and robbing we are waging a war, waging a war against the Swedes." This argument was repeated several times. "Power for me means that the Swedes shall look at me, lie down on the ground and kiss my feet. We rob every single day, as often as we want to, whenever we want to." Swedish authorities have done virtually nothing to stop this."

Hi Peppy...fair question. Let me try to answer.

1/ I have reported various things to the AFP and have had a number of interviews with them over various terrorism related matters.

2/ I'm more interested in raising the knowledge base about what drives the radicals . "give a man a fish, feed him for a day, teach him how to fish and feed him for a lifetime". Understand what drives the radicals...and ur that much ahead of them.

3/ My company has done work for anti terrorism sections of the Police.

Seeing what is happening in other countries,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ya9xypqB5eo WESTMINSTER CATHEDRAL....

Can you imagine how things would go if I took a group to Lakemba Mosque and ran a loud demo calling for bin Ladins death? I think the police would be racing for relevance quickly and trying to remove us for our safety..that alone is a danger sign.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCqFtP52a70 "British" medical student.... admits to killing Serbs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lb8shFIkx78 "Mainstream" Islam and misogynism against women.(UK)

and the beginnings of it HERE with those on trial now and various Kalifah conferences etc.

I think that a broader knowledge of these matters is appropriate.

Boaz, etc,

I have never said we should not do all we can to combat terrorists. However you're contention that Islam could take over Europe, Australia, etc is absurd. If you look at ALL the available evidence and not just select the parts that suit you it is obvious that Islam will never take over Australia or Europe, etc. In fact thru most of the world Muslim birth rates are decreasing. The fastest growing religion in Australia is Buddhism not Islam. Most of the victims of terrorists and most of the people fighting against terrorism are Muslims but you continue to demonise ALL Muslims because it suits your religious views. You only accept data that reinforces your prejudices and ignore all other facts.

BOAZ_David

You wrote about Prophet Mohammad, peace upon him, and his letters to other kings, you got the point! same story happening these days, Sheikh Haron is not the first person who has followed his prophet to send letters to kings and Queens of the world and he won't be the last one either.

To guide and advise others , to ask them to come to the straight road, was not only the duty of the last prophet of God, the prophets before him have done the same. Prophet Jesus , peace upon him, has advised others too. He expects his followers, Christians, to do the same, but unfortunately his followers are very busy with few more important things like casino, sex, and drugs.

Sheikh Haron has sent the LETTER to head of Australia, and one day probably to the head of other countries, other Muslim clerics and many other Muslims will do the same in the future. This is the policy of God starting from Adam till Ibrahim (Abraham), from Moses and his brother Haron till Jesus, from Jesus till Mohammad, from Mohammad till now, yes till now in Australia , in UK , in USA ! The policy of God will continue , it won't stop whether you like it or not.

I understand why you are upset with an Australian Muslim cleric who has sent the LETTER to head of Australia, you are upset because you know this is not "just sending a letter", you are smart , you know that is a START ! A start for many things. you should work on it to find out it is start for WHAT?

Boaz you said you have contacted AFP few times. I can imagine how happy they were when they heard from you first, but later whe they have seen your REPORT they might have found out that they have been wasting their time talking with a person who mixes reality with DREAMS and IMAGINATIONS. I recommend you don't waste the time of Australian authorities unless you really have a real REPORT about terrorism. :)

Hi Cardline your letter to Mr. John Howard was nice :) but I think it is better you send it to his office. I am serious , it is nice if you send that letter to his office, like the Sheikh :)

Boaz can contact AFP if he feels danger or somethings because of the LETTER :)

Hi People Against you said that we need good Muslim leaders here in Australia.
We have plenty of them in Australia , all of them are good :) , don't you know that?

ALJAZEERA_OZ,

I think you and Boaz_David deserve each other.

Why does this site attract so many religious nutters? It would be nice to get rid of all the religious fundamentalists from all the faiths. You're all as bad as each other.

Banjo
Thanks for that. Well its six of one and half a dozen of the other really.
Actually I am not sure if you meant to be funny but I had a good chuckle anyway.- Funny As!
Not wishing to offend anybody-[ as If I care] they both go hand in hand really Banjo.
Kevin Rudd nabbed the Milky Bar Kid up here in his home town of QLD is more than welcome to anser both questions.

I dont think he will go any place near the 'head gear" but he SHOULD if he had once once of deceny say something about turning Australia into a Ritual Cult Slaughter Islamic Extreme Country allowing our Australian Animals to die slowly while being bled to death without any pre stunning!

P Dox. Thanks. I cant read it until Antje makes it bigger. Looks a bit out of order but I will read it and get back to you.

AL JAZEERA.
Do you dont mind if I ask you some questions.

Please feel free to do like wise.

It was said Mohamed believed there were more woman in hell than men.
Are you aware of his teachings? Would you agree with that and if so why?
Who do you think should be the head of the Muslim leaders in Australia?

Are you aware of the disunity and challanges from time to time of AFIC as leaders.?

Do you think it would be better for all our schools to be non religious.?"
In other words all our children to attend school together and not have just Christian and Muslim Schools?

I think it might help to unite everybody. The way it is now to me its sort of teaching kids- its them and Us. If you know what I mean.
Do you agree that most Muslims except pre stuuing of Halal Meat?
Thanks.
'

"Can Australians deal with non-muslims commintting acts of terrorism"

The Australian authorities seem to be able to deal better with Australian perpetrators than muslim ones. The cronulla riots being one example of this. Where despite having muslim perpetrators committing violent acts on security cameras at the time only Australians were arrested until much later when questions were asked about why this was so.

AL JAZEERA

Thanks for your reply.

Leaders of "anything" are only as good as the head person and others supporting them.
To be honest I liked Dr Ali. I thought him wise and fair.

I would like to compliment his leadership and that him for being the FIRST leader of Any Religion to speak out about the unnessary cruelty of Animals in Live Exports From Australia.

Its certainly far more than our so called Christian leaders have ever done.
You may see Dr Ali`s Media Release here by scrolling to the bottom of this site.

Please take a minute to read some of this stuff I have linked you to.

http://www.livexports.com/

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

http://www.halakindmeats.com/

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

I would like to discuss with you Halal meat- `of course` but I am interested in many other topics as well.

I am a proud Aussie and dont ever want anybody trying to change the culture of this country and I will say that right up front.

I understand that Islam does not seperate Laws and religion and quite frankly I see that as a problem.

Australia holds wonderful oportunities for Halal Products, Farms and Progects BUT it needs Strong Leaders with forsight not people following like sheep.

With all due respect to you if AQIS and little Jonnie Howard want to roll over for JAKIM WE "EXPECT" the Muslim Leaders of Australia to stand up and say NO.!

Be it JAKIM or Brunie Sultan -

If AFIC dont want to show some modern leadership and compassion for Gods Most Innocent- his creatures then they will have to get used to competition.
Pre stunning has LONG been excepted by most Muslim people.

Just because the Australian Government DONT have the common deceny to stand AFIC and you guys should!

Australia Free Green and disease free.
A land of oportunity.
BUT it requires proper leadership just like Anything else.

PS I can read your letter P Dox posted because its too small.

Could you post it please?

From what I saw your saying that his JH comments were not helpful?

AlJazera..... I'm really not sure what to make of your posts.. they seem to be a mix of 'Islamist' and sarcasm.. not meaning to offend, but your point about "Letter"="Start" is quite important.

You would have said this in either.

a) A cynical or sarcastic way, realizing that my knowledge of Islamic history means I will immediately know what you are meaning there.
or.
b) You are serious, and you are explaining the way it unfolded in the past with Mohammad... i.e. he warned then attacked.

You'll have to help me out here, becuase as you can see from Peppy's enlightened remarks about 'religious nutter' there are a few question marks on your post.
You 'sound' foreign... even 'Arab' in your writing, so perhaps you can help us out on that issue as well ?

Welcome to OLO anyway.

PEPPY.. c'mon.. you can do better than to just poke poo at people.

Pale,
If it is correct that Labor and Libs agreed not to discuss Immigration issues in election campaigns then I do not think that is funny. I am outraged and think it dispicable that they should decide what issues the electors need to know about.

All aspects of immigration and population are important and should be open for discussion at any time. The reason given by the major parties for not discussing immigration at elections was that it was complicated and we (electors) may get wrong impression.

They don't think much of us do they?

I think the real reason is that they would be embarassed to reveal why they both have high immigration policy. Studies have shown that the main beneficaries of high immigration are big business and the migrants themselves. There is little or no benefit to Australians as a whole.

Neither of the major parties are prepared to come up with a population we should aim for, and put that up for discussion. No they prefer to treat us like mushrooms.

Boaz,

Yeah, but poking poo is so much fun.

By the way the BBC is reporting that Afganistan has now overtaken Columbia as the world's producer of Opium and in fact broken the world record for the production of Opium. Another glorious success for our all conquering armies in the Middle East.

Peppy... the problem with the lack of control of the Opium is this 'quaint' idea of 'Human Rights'...

Speaking purely on a 'human' level... there is only one way to deal with that situation.. and its very VERY harsh.... do I need to fill in the blanks ? :)

I don't know why we even bother to get involved in things which will NEVER be successful because just when we arrive at the point of near success.. we are hamstrung by naive and bleeding heart 'human rights'.

Can you imagine the absolute chaos which would be China today if they had not done the 'Tien an min square' thing ? We would have spoiled brat try hard students thinking they can run the place all at each others throats and bleeting about this,that or the other thing.

Unfortunately, on the 'we are alone, just us, no gods' level... humans can only be managed by brutality and force. Sad...but true.

That's why I always try to provide an 'alternative' approach :)

Banjo

Your right. They dont think much of us. Its time people got off their bums and started to take politics seriously Banjo.
Just as well this Costello law doesnt come under that umbrella then isnt it?
It comes under freedom of speech and our Animal Welfare Laws regardoing the Ritual Slaughter.
If the government THOUGHT this new law would quiten things down to save their sorry arses from further embassesing disclosures they as usual got it wrong.
Banjo note the new thread in news and current affairs regading Tassi.
Its BLATENT arrogance from the Government and it MUST be stopped.
This goes beyond Animal Welfare Banjo to the heart of our soceity.
Its time for an inderpendant Government and be RID of Howard and Labour.
BTW Do you have a copy of the agreement regarding not talking about imagration before an election?
Paulines looking better each day.
I mean even if you support high levels of migrants arriving each day you should have a voice.
What we need Banjo is a bunch of real Aussies to stand up against the bloody lot of them for US the Australian people.
I would do it for nothing- to save my country and have some concern and compassion. How say you?

Maybe we need another party.
I am serious.

" humans can only be managed by brutality and force ":

Boaz,

I always knew you were anti-democratic and hated freedom but even for you that is such a silly thing to say. The only places in the world where the War Against Terrorism is working is where the Government is using the Carot and Stick approach, and we are losing in all the places where we primarily use military means. Brutality begets brutality and violence creates more violence. It's no wonder we are losing the war if people believe your absurd ideas. I still don't see any sign of your God blessing our war efforts in the Middle East. Maybe He doesn't like your violent approach to every problem either.

Boazy: "the problem with the lack of control of the Opium is this 'quaint' idea of 'Human Rights'..."

I love it when our 'Christian Taliban' spokesman decries the notion of human rights. Most Christians I know are actively involved in promoting human rights, but our Brethren nutter places himself firmly in the same fascist camp as the Taliban, under whose rule the opium trade in Afghanistan was reduced to virtually nil.

I think that Boazy and the other Christian fundies who infest this forum have much more in common with the Taliban than they'd like to admit.

Hi People against live
You asked questions, again you sent another post: "thanks for your reply"
please be patient. Still is less than 24 hours from your post's time. :) I'm very busy and I can't come on line few times a day.
Good questions, I try to answer soon, first I should answer Peppy and Boaz , your answer will be long, and if it exceedes more 350 words I make each one separately.

Hi Peppy I didn't expect you to welcome a new member in this forum like that. Australian culture is respetful and your behavior and judgment doesn't fit in that culture, so you might be from another nationality.
When Boaz says: " PEPPY..c'mon..you can do better than to just poke poo at people" , you say: " Yeah, but poking poo is so much fun." Then you changed the topic immediately to something which had nothong to do with this thread, maybe you felt guilty and you wanted to escape from yourself.
Peppy if you are searching for a forum to write for fun , you are in the wrong place. Here is a serious forum for debates, I found it a very valuable site.
I criticised BOAZ but he was the one who said Welcome to forum.
You also have welcomed me but with different words which suit your culture.
A question: were u upset of me because of saying that BOAZ is smart? He is really smart, althogh I have different views and ideas with him but I should admit the truth, he was the only person on this forum who picked the main point of the Sheikh Haron's letter.

Boaz
I appreciate for welcoming me although I,ve critisied you :)
Yes your guess is right, I am foreigner and Muslim :). But I like Australian culture and I try not to judge about Australian culture when I face people like Peppy.
You asked me question about START, I said you should work on it lol or you should ask the Sheikh :)
If I say , you might report to AFP lol kidding

Hi People
You asked: " It was said Mohammad (peace upon him) believed there weremore woman in hell than men. Are you aware of his teaching?"
introduction:
1. All of Quran is a resource for Muslims without any doubt. Because it has not been touched, it has not been changed, we have only one unique copy , one unique version of Quran.
2. Saying and teaching of prophet is also a resource but not all of that, there is doubt for some of his sayings.
Other books or sayings has been changed during the time, so we can not account on them. We can account on Quran.
Prophet knew that after his death many people will make false sentence and claim they are his words, that's why he warned Muslims that by comparing Quran with those words they should try to recognise right ones. Any saying is against Quran , we deny it.
3. Another source for Muslim is Intelligence.

So when you hear any sentence about our prophet,don't account on that if you want to research and find out the thruth. You should first focus on Quran only.

Now we SUPPOSE prophet has said such a thing, if he really has said it I ask you to pay attention to following points: if this post exceedes 350 words I should write the rest later :)
1. Maybe he knew about the future and he has given information that number of women are more, that doesn't mean woman is less than man.
2. Maybe he meant that women are usually more amotional than men and maybe sometimes they follow the amotions more and sometimes forget about the spirituality.
3. maybe he meant : men are worse than women and some of men try to decieve women who are more amotional than men and have good and simple and kind heart, so this shows women are nicer :)
4. maybe he has not said such a thing. And what you have heard is from those false "sayings".
I edited post, exceeded 350 words. I wish we had more space.

ALJAZEERA_OZ,

Some things you need to know:

1/ Aussies often "stir" or "take the piss" out of each other so it's not unusual to see us arguing ro abusing each other. It's part of the fun of living in a free society as opposed to a very polite one with no freedom of expression.

2/ Only 8% of Australians go to church and I think all of them are on this site. There's more religious nuts on this site than you can shake a Bible or Koran at. So the last thing I wanted to see was another one. Hence my lack of welcome.

3/ If you think Boaz is smart then it's clear we don't have much in common. You may think he is nice now but wait, he will turn on you shortly and he'll be very nasty. I thought he was a nice guy too when I first showed up until he showed his true colours.

4/ The 92% of us who don't go to church are sick of the other 8% constantly preaching, so don't expect any respect from me if you can't respect the fact that I choose to NOT be religious. You want to preach go the Mosque or Church.

Banjo , Peppy
and People Against Live ....

you requested the whole letter, I have already sent link, did you read the whole? so what do u think?

what is your opinion? about:
Poisoning Injection Muslim

ALJAZEERA OZ

We should have said welcome also. I apologize and Welcome.

To answer your question-

Am I aware of his teachings? Yes and No.

I have done a lot of reading and mixed with many people of Muslim faith. I have a book I refer to written by Dr Robert Morey Executive Director of Research Education at the time.

Don’t worry about the question regarding why Mohamed said there were more woman in hell than men because it will take up too much room.

On a more serious note and I say this to Boaz all the time as well, why on earth do we all argue about who said what “ages’ ago.?

Boaz You “never” reply to me when I ask you this- Perhaps you would be polite enough to answer us this time?
If the Bible was written 70 80 years after his death and then in Greek, what makes you think it was translated without any mistakes as to what was said?
Back then as you know if somebody was disabled it was said they were possessed by the devil and demons.
The same thing was said of people if they were mentally ill. It was common that everybody said the devil had a hold of them. Also if we listened to the followings all our space ships would have hit a rock wall and the end of the world.

The Quran has similar examples.
My question to” both of you” is why can’t everybody just practice being nice and doing the right thing?


Its painfully clear that BOTH religions need to be in a position to be good teachers and the only way to do that is to come into the 2007 and onward.

It is critical both for born and bred Aussies and people arriving from overseas to start a new life here that we have ONE united wise Muslim leadership in Australia.

.

Peppy: "Only 8% of Australians go to church and I think all of them are on this site."

Too funny :D

More seriously, I add my welcome to ALJAZEERA_OZ - but I have to say that I agree with the substance of Peppy's post.

Fundamentalists of any persuasion can expect a robust reception in this forum, and that's as it should be. No belief or idea is immune from debate, criticism or satire - all of which occur here.

P_Dox,

I found it very difficult to read the letter you posted but from what I could read I don't really see what the issue is. I never saw the TV show he refers to so I don't know if I agree with him or not, but I can't see a problem with someone writing to the PM about his concerns about how a TV show presented something. The PM gets thousdands of letters and emails every week about all sorts of things. The letter seemed repectful and polite and wasn't about government policy or really about Australians in general. It was mainly about one specific TV show and it's influence. What's the big deal? The PM will probably gets worse letters about nudity on TV.

CJ Morgan
and
People against live

Thanks for "welcome" :)

Peppy you said that to be in a free society and adbusing each other is better than being very polite one with no freedom of expression.

Peppy you are wrong, both of those two are not right, the first one as you said is better than the second one but both are wrong. If we have to choose between bad and worse , then we should choose the bad one. But we don't have to choose between bad and worse in Australia, in Australia we can have both.
we should be:
1. polite , not accusing each other, not to judge each other, not to abuse each other.
2. having freedom of expression.

Peppy you said 92% of Australians don't go to church, then your conclusion was that 92% of Australians are not religious.
Not going to church doesn't mean to be Non religios. Many people believe in God and are religious but don't go to Church or Mosque etc.

I believe that much more than 8% of Australians are religious. They might be even the majority.


People against live
I have answered one of your questions, I will answer the other ones soon. :)

Peppy and CJ Morgan
you can't judge and accuse a person as fundamentalist if the person talks about God or respect to religion. Recentlt it is in fashion that if a person talks about spirituality or respect to prophet or religion, immediately some guys with a show off style try to say: oh I don't like FUNDAMENTALISM !

People Against Live Exports
Thank you very much for the links and your time. I will look at them.

You asked me: " Do you think it would be better for all our schools to be non religious?"

My answer: No , because of many reasons, I mention only one of them here:
As you are aware , Australians like you, and even some of Non Australians like Peppy believe that there must be freedom of expression. So in the Australian society many people want to learn , to teach , to express and to promote their religion in a freedom enviornment. One of the main part of the Australian culture is this FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, so if we take this from Australians we have damage a part of the CULTURE. You said you are a proud Aussie, you should never think about anything which will be against the Australian culture.

The answer of your other question regarding the leadership of Muslims will be in my next post, God willing.

People Against Live Export you sound polite, kind and friendly. :)
I like you , but I have only one criticise , or a question, from you. Can I say? Can I ask? Do you promise you won't be upset? :

Oz
Please go ahead and ask anything you like. I must say being polite is probably not my strongest point on OLO as many will tell you.

I will be pleased to hear your thoughts on Muslim leadership in Australia.
However as of late yesterday afternoon I must inform you I think I have already picked the best Muslim leader for this country.

We would like to welcome the New Mufti of Australia. WE hope to be able To support him along with his supporters and bring blessings hope to the oportunity to have Australia as a wonderful example to the rest of the world by showing wisdom and compassion.
It will take a strong leader who has strong unwavering support from all.
You will be underminded by the Australian Government when it suites them.
Much to our Shame the Australian Government have shown NO Compassion for Gods Creatures and I dont know how John Howard gets up in the morning and looks himself in the morning KNOWING millions of Australian Animals are sent on totally unnessary death ships because hes not man enough to stop it.

OZ Thanks for your answer on Muhammad and woman. I really just mentioned it to get old boazie going.
SECTION V111
Muhammad On Women-
It is said Mohammad taught that the majority of the people in hell were women!
The prophet said, I was shown the Hell- Fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women'[ vol1,nos28,301.,2,no.161.]
The reason the majority of the people in hell were women is stated in vol.2, no. 541
" O Women!. I have not seen anyone more deficent in intelligence and religion than you.

What Aussie Bloke would agree with that one! `Funny As.`

Now just before you rush off to the bible Boaz ALL that shows is men were alike world wide.
It IS time for BOTH Religions to get modernised Boaz is my point!
Ours is "just as stupid" telling people anybody ill was possessed by demons and the devil for goodness sake!

People Against Live Export &

you said that you have already picked the best Muslim leader for this country.
May I ask who he is?

you said that you welcome to the new Mufti of Australia and you hope to be able to supprt him...

Can I ask whom you are talking about?

ALJAZEERA_OZ,

1/ Part of democracy is being allowed to disagree vehemently with others. If it's a polite gentlemanly discourse you are after may I suggest you try visiting North Korea. There you will find the people very polite and they never disagree or use harsh language with each other in public.

2/ Whether they attend church or not most Australians don't preach and try to shove their religion down the throats of others. It's the religious hypocrites who continually preach at others instead of looking at themselves that I was alluding to.

3/ You say: " I believe that much more than 8% of Australians are religious. They might be even the majority." Typically like many religious people you just invent data and twist and distort facts. You have no proof at all that over 8% of Australians are religious but even though you have no proof you make up figures and say they are the majority. It's calling lying.

PALEIF: " I think I have already picked the best Muslim leader for this country."

I don't suppose you have any idea how arrogant and patronising that statement is?

You really don't have a clue, so you?

Hey Peppy......

we all want to be liked :) but also, if 'not' liked we desire to know on what grounds so if we need to correct some ill behaviour we can.

Can you share with me what specific thing showed you I'm 'not nice' ?

I'm genuinely curious about this, because most if not all of what I say is directed at issues.. so I don't see how this is a testimonial to me not being a nice person.

I hope that you don't define 'niceness' as meaning "never speak out regarding things we are concerned for"

Fill me in old son...I'm all ears.

Those TRUE COLORS... thats what I'd like to know about.

Lets not forget 'smart' :) you dispute this also ? heyyyyyyy... well I have to agree on that... I don't consider myself 'smart' .. my education is quite lowly, and was mainly from the school of hard knocks and experience.

But....don't you think that suggesting people are 'not nice' and 'dumb' is kind of.....'not nice' in itself ? :)

NUMBERS OF PEOPLE GOING TO CHURCH. now.. the figures here might be quite correct. "Welcome to the freedom of Christianity" where people are not 'fined' for failure to attend Church.(as they are in some 'religions') Nope.. you can do what you jollywell like. If people don't care enough about their creator or fellowship with His people..its their free choice.. A word of caution though, Paul said "Don't use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh"

Oz
Sure-
FYI
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/11/1947556.htm

Umm oz may I ask you a question please?
Are you living here?
Morgan
Just like evey other person in Australia I have the right to pick the person i favour to lead the Muslim Australian Citz.
I like this bloke. I think he will make a very fine fair leader with a good level head.
I think he has a sennse of justise and fainess and wants whats best for Australia.
So Yes I have chosen the leader in which I will look to for advise and trust and you are free to do likewise.
Has it EVER? occured to you Morgan that its the Government that have caused trouble with their lack of insight as to who how and when to bring people to Australia- From where.
Has? it ever occiured to you that Muslim leaders of Australia have to deal with working together from all other Muslims from all over the world?
Do you have any understanding ofjust how difficult that is?
I will jump up and down just as much as you if i even gret a sniff of "some" people wanting to change my country
Dont you worry about that.
However stop bagging Muslims just because they are Muslims and stop bagging me because i have had the priverledge to work with their leaders over the last few years.
Perhaps yourself and David might like to discuss KOSHER Sluaghter.
Thats the onewhere they skin them alive!
That DOESNT! happen in Halal.
Think about that before you cast stones please everbody.

David
I dont think your not nice. Just brain washed. I know you wont see it that way because you are programed not to.
Thats what brain washing is.
NOW-If you want to be a good Christian start the church of the doing good deeds!
Instead of building Churches meet in a park!
Put the plate money into fixing an old ladies roof or walking around
mowing lawns for the elderly.
Thats God work and I am sure he would be proud of you.
I dont See Anywhere in the bible where he said-
Dont Do anything just sit in a building and mumble my name while being blind to people and Gods Animals who need some practicle help
do you?

Peppy you gave North Korea as example and try to prove that being rude with freedom of expression is better than being polite but not to have right for expression.
Peppy I think you are little bit slow, you didn't get what I told you, I repeat and make it clear:
We have three options:
1. Being polite without freedom of expression. (It is Worse)
2. Being rude "and poking poo as you said" and abuse others with freedom of expression. (it is bad)
3. Being polite with freedom of expression. (it is good).

I told you before that we don't have to choose between bad and worse, we can choose between bad, worse and good. North Korea is the example for worse, your country or your culture is example for bad (poking poo with freedom) , Australia is example for the third option, freedom of expression without abusing others and without poking poo.

Peppy I said religious people "might" be majority, if I use the word "Maybe" or "might" it is not lying , but if someone like you says 8% are religious (without proof, and without mentioning "might"), with confidence, then it is not right.

BOAZ_David

please don't waste time with Peppy regarding personal matters, Peppy thinks if someone like you answers and argue with people it means that person is not nice.

Lets spend time on debates, not on personal things. If you don't answer him, he will stop. Thanks.

CJ Morgan
which arrogant and patronising statement are you talking about?

People Against Live Exports &

You asked me: "Who do you think should be the head of the Muslim leaders in Australia?"

There two things that you have mixed them together, you should not.
1. Leadership. 2. Muslim cleric (Mufti).
A Muslim cleric (Mufti) is NOT necessarily a leader.
A leader is NOT necessarily a cleric.

A cleric is a teacher, is a source for interpretation of religious texts, is a person who will be able to find out the new Shariah law according the new "time" and "place".

We can have 100 or 1000 or more clerics in a society with different views and interpretation of religious texts , and Muslims can choose each of them and follow that interpretation and practise their religion base on that idea.
Like many different flowers , each flower has different nice smell, all of flowers are nice !

I make it clear that all Muslim clerics in Australia (and in the world) are good (ofcourse as long as they have not committed sin and crime) and I support all of them.

You asked about leader,
Answer: Every Muslim is a leader.
In Islam every Muslim is a leader if he understands Quran , Sunnah (policy and comments of prophet in life)and Intelligence. Then if that Muslim comes to conclusion that must support John Howard for sending Australian army to Iraq or not, that person is a leader and can understand what Quran says and what is the Shariah Law and therefore what should be the decision for supporting or for condemning. Every Muslim is a leader.

Now you might say: ok if every Muslim is a leader, but we need one person to organise them, to bring them together, and to do many other things which is necessary for society.
I answer: yes we need, and that person's position is administrator, or organiser, or anything else you want to call him/her.
like prime minister that is elected by citizens.
So I admit that it is good to have a representative who can sometimes speak out on behalf of Muslims. As spokeman.

Oz

Please allow me to give you a good example why two leaders or more dont work.
Here in Australia we have a law that all Animals must be pre stunned for humane reasons.
Every now and then you have Muslim reps coming to Australia demanding thats changed.
Of course they always say its a requiremnent of Allah there by putting the Aussie Muslims in a unfair and difficult position.

Ie Do they follow Allah or Australian Laws?
in fact the question then must be asked - Is it really possible for Muslims to intergrate into Western Countries given our differences?

While I am aware there are many other councils[ 31 actually] AFIC are the elected leaders by the Muslim people in Australia.

The new Mufti from what I know so far he will do a good job.


Australian Muslim Leaders have a huge task as you rightfully pointed out because they must work with people from many different countries and often oppposing ideas.

I understand that its hard because Muslim people are raised to follow religion and there is no difference between religion and laws.


Here we must ALL obey the same laws in Australia first and then are free to follow our own religions.

That is why we need really wise Muslim leaders who are prepaired to live in 2007 in Australia.

I hope that makes sense to you.

"please don't waste time with Peppy"

ALJAZEERA_OZ,

You want to run away and hide because I might hurt your feelings. Afraid of a real debate? Well good luck with your new best friend Boaz David. One thing I might suggest though. Check out his previous posts. You'll find he hates Islam, thinks Mohammad and the Koran are evil and that all Moslems will eventually have to be exterminated. So if you like a friend who would like to see you dead instead of someone who gives a robust debate then be my guest. I'm sure you'll both get on like a house on fire.

"Can you share with me what specific thing showed you I'm 'not nice' ?"

Boaz David,

I've seen you call people on this site who you don't agree with "evil" amongst other things. You think you should be able to sit in judgement of others and not be judged yourself? What did Jesus say about that you hypocrite.

Why don't I think you are nice? I don't know, maybe it's because you don't believe in democracy. Or that you see nothing wrong with Dictators oppressing and torturing and killing their people. Or that you are a racist who believes in White Supremacy. Or that you believe in violence and don't abject to the killing of women and children as long as the dead aren't "Christians". Or maybe it's your general hypocrisy and how you cloak your hatred of people with a perverted twisted version of Christianity. Take your pick. Jesus would be ashamed of you.

People against live

You again mixed two different words: "Muslim cleric" with "Leader" and I don't know which one you are talking about.

As I said these two are different, I think you are talking about the first one, not the second one. We don't have any particular person as the leader for Muslims in Australia (and not even in the world) at the moment. So when you are talking about Muslim leaders I think you mean Muslim clerics (Muftis), yes in that case you are right we need many Muslim clerics in the world including Australia to give a suitable interpretation of religious texts (like Quran) to the Muslims, an interpretation which will enable Muslims to handle their new problems with the new conditions in this century.

Peppy if Boaz is against religion its fine with me , still I can debate and argue with him, as long as he is polite.
If he has not been polite in the past, that is THE PAST, we should talk about PRESENT, people might have changed, if one day Boaz will be rude to me then I will answer him, but I won't judge about him by looking at his past posts.
My suggestion to you , to BOAZ_David and to MYSELF is that we should try to be POLITE and FRIENDLY.
please from this moment let's three of us argue about our different views and ideas but in a very polite manner.

Peppy will you accept?

BOAZ will you accept?

from this moment I will be friendly and polite with Peppy and BOAZ as long as they are the same. :)

Now please lets talk about more important things.

BOAZ I am ready...you can say anything you want about Islam, I will try to answer you, God willing. Tell me what makes you think that religion is evil? Do you believe in existence of God or not?

BOAZ shoot your first attack lol
I am waiting

Oz

Thank you for taking the time to explain your personal experience with Muslim Leaders.

In short what you are saying is every Muslim in the world is resonsible for his and her own choices.
They in fact are the destiny of their own lives. You can choose to follow the peace of Islam or some of the more radical leaders.
This makes me feel more positive in my work.

Some Muslim Reps try to tell our Government that they refuse to have animals pre stunned before slaughter because its a religious requirment . Government reps have tried to tell Animal Welfare Agencies they can not refuse these requests because they do not wish to "offend Muslims".
You have made it clear there is no such[ one law] so its easy for us to fight for humane treatment of God creatures.
It`s simply "which leaders you choose to follow" as your guide and what the Koran Says.
So there goes John Howard and Rudds excuse for being weak gutless and poor examples of humanity.
I have met many really nice Muslim people and a few that I found insulting to be honest.
I guess that is true of everything in life isnt it Oz.
You dont judge a person by their religion but how they are as a person.
I am wondering why you gave yourself the name ALJAZEERA?
Of course its up to you if you wish to share that with me or not.


You said Muslims dont have a world leader [ at the moment] What does that mean please oZ?
Do you see them appointing one and if so who do you think that might be.
Its interesting chatting with you on OLO.
I am glad you joined us.
It does get a bit heated at times but I guess that also keeps it a bit interesting.
Thanks Again oz

BOAZ_David John Howard is not a Head of State, he is no more (constitutionally that is) but a servant to the Governor-General!

Australia has too much of a Muslim-phobia that ordinary people who happen to walk with a scarf on their head (regardless if they are not at all involved with Islam) are being taunted.
P_Dox correctly highlights that a doctor could have used biological and/or chemical weapons to cause untold harm, if that was the real intention.
Since the Tampa incident we have gone of the rails, so to say, as a society to tolerate beleaguering of refugees about “children overboard”, “terrorist coming in boats”, etc, and all we did was to invade a sovereign nation for non-existing WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, and caused more harm to Australians then anyone else could have done.
It is sickening how we as a society are picking upon people because they happen to be either or both Arab and Muslim. We should hold John Howard accountable before the Courts for unconstitutionally invading Iraq, mass murder, crimes against humanity, treason and treachery so that others may finally see that we will not allow terrorism by anyone one of our own!
See also my blog at http://au.360.yahoo.com/profile-ijpxwMQ4dbXm0BMADq1lv8AYHknTV_QH
What is a “TERRORIST”? Constitutionally it is the prime minister who forces the Senate to vote on a Bill without allowing it to have appropriate time for debate. Now that is what the Framers of the Constitution stated! Yet, we now label people who are defending their own country to be TERRORIST, rather then resistant-fighters because politically it suits better.
It doesn’t worry me personally if a person is a Muslim, Jew, Catholic or whatever, as long as they conduct themselves within the law. If just the Federal Government respected this we may never have had Vivian Alvarez Solon, Dr. Haneef and other cases.
Currently the Federal Government is, so to say, picking on Muslims and that should be condemned!
Show respect to all people regardless of their religion.

Mr Gerrit H

Very nice comments
hope to hear from you here more

People Against Live

Thank you
ok I will answer your recent questions soon :)

Peppy

This is what you said: " The letter seemed respectful and polite and wasn't about government policy or really about Australians in general. It was mainly about one specific TV show and its influence.
What's the big deal? The PM will probably get worse letters about nudity on TV"

Peppy
I don't want to say anything to offend you, don't take me wrong but I think you are slow to understand POLITICS. Maybe you are expert for other fields but NOT POLITICS.

1. It doesn't make difference if the letter is polite or not. Actually it does make difference, when its polite it will be more effective.

2. If the PM recives many worse letters about nudity, but this letter is different with those ones, this is not just a complaint letter from a citizen about the nudity or other things on TV, this is a letter to PM from an Australian cleric , not from other people, big difference.

3. If you knew the alphabets of POLITICS , you would never say: "what's the big deal?"
It is a big deal, very big deal. Don't just look at the LETTER, see who is the sender? When it has been sent? What has been sent?
Look at the scene behind of it.

I recommend you to read it again.

You are right it is difficult to read my post,it was JPG file and not clear, maybe you have not read it properly that's why you commented like that, I should try to post again PDF.

P Dox
I agree with all of the above but as I said it would be interesting to be able to read it.
I suppose we must acknowledge they dont have our very proper English back ground and pompus either.
I dont know whats happend to Oz as I was looking forward to his reply to a couple of questions.
Perhaps he is at APEC.
`Couldnt resist` Where`s David.

People

Yeah Aljazeera_Oz is missing , he has probably been arrested for APEC lol

Or maybe BOAZ_David has reported to AFP about him lol

Peppy should know about this :)

Hello my friends
No I have not been arrested yet lol you will see me on TV if one day happens lol

People Against Live Exports & ....
sorry for late answer, you've asked few questions I'll try to answer some of them now and the rest later :)

You asked me why I have named myself ALJAZEERA
When I was joining this site I was thinking to choose a nick name which show two important facts: 1. being Muslim 2. being Australian citizen. So I thought the word ALJAZEERA which is a famous name because of aljazeera network , and in Arabic means "The Island" would be a suitable to sound Muslim. Australia is the biggest Island , so that matches too lol
Then I thought that OZ can show I am an Australian citizen, and I love Australia. That was the reason for choosing this nick name.

You should feel free to ask any personal question, I don't mind. If I don't want to answer some of the personal questions I'll let you know or I'll remain silent :)

You asked about the law, I was saying that sometimes the Muslim clerics INTERPRET diffent ways of some particular religious texts which are not very clear, and also they should try to find solutions for our new conditions of this century and this country (to make the rules match with the time and place) but they can only go that far that is not out of the way of the basis. They can match few things but not EVERYTHING.
The answer of the rest of your questions for next time, now I am excited of the thread of Angela which is about "Halal and Haram terrorism" I want to join that as well. :)

Oz.

Good to see you have regained your humor- very funny.
It’s a pretty Aussie sort of dry humor so I am guessing you have been here for a while or born here- Am I correct? Or did you go to Uni etc.
Thanks for my question about your name. Its `s a nice reason. Yes I love Australia very much too.

I will take you up on asking you a few personal questions – thanks-= anything you don’t wish to answer just doesn’t respond so I will get the message that out of boundaries.
How come you put Islamic values before Australian Values on your title? Can you understand that some people such as myself might not appreciate that?[ I will addmitt I am old school but that’s insulting to me anyway?
What do you think of the new Australian mufti? What do you think about AFIC and their leadership./ Above all what do you feel about Halal Slaughter and the use of pre stunning?
What do you think about some Muslims overseas pushing for slaughter without stunning ?
What one thing that you love about Australia?
Oz you can ask me questions too.
fire away anytime.
You should talk to your guests [nicely .ok
Goodnight