What happened in NZ should not have happened.

It did and atrocities occur in lots of countries, to stop them the blame for them has to be attributed somewhere hopefully to prevent them occurring again. Or at least stop the frequency of them.

Out of 100%, where do people lay the blame for what happened.

** CORRECTION **

CHANGE TO WHO IS TO BLAME, doing it proportionally out of 100% is unrealistic with the information we have.

Blame is man's corrupt heart. Whether its murdering the unborn or shooting the born. Its called sin and resides in every human.

Most of the blame lies with the shooter, of course, but those who radicalised him are also morally culpable whether or not any legal charges can be made to stick.

This attack show the point in which hostility to
Islam and Muslims has reached. This hateful
discourse and commentary against Islam and Muslims
is turning into a perverse and murderous ideology.
It needs to be held accountable. The world must
raise its voice against this type of discourse and
it must stop Islamophobic attacks - it must stop
the hatred - because like a cancer it is spreading
and infecting people. If not stopped it will
only get worse. The media must act more responsibly.
It plays a big role in all of this.

Foxy The media are complicit by there silence.

Politicians are complicit by their bias.

Where were the politicians before when in Australia parents were parading around with their children the children were carrying signs "Behead Infidels" and other things.

Where are the politicians when we have clerics saying females can be raped because of what they wear etc.

Individuals perceive themselves powerless when politicians bend over backwards to appease some at the expense of the majority. But stomp on the few that speak out for the majority.

To quote JFK
** "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." **

He is greatly to blame, as well as anyone who knew what he was going to do BUT others are to blame as well.

Philip S.,

JFK was right. Violence only begets violence.

We need to set an example by the rule of law.
And stop with the demonisation of entire groups of people.
It needs to be stressed that its the extremists who commit
these heinous acts - extremists of all ideologies.
Not all Muslims are fundamentalists, not all white men
are deranged.

Dear Aidan,

Agreed.

But what Philip S really meant was how much can we put the blame on the victims. It really was more of a rhetorical question from him.

This will be a theme we will see propagating through this forum in various guises as the rabid right posters try and weasel themselves out of an culpability in assisting to spread a toxic, poisonous, deadly message – one that has inspired one of us to travel to New Zealand and slaughter 49 innocent people.

SteeleRedux Quote "But what Philip S really meant was how much can we put the blame on the victims. It really was more of a rhetorical question from him."

** Your ignorance just defies logic, please show me what words made you arrive at that ludicrous conclusion? **

** You further show you ignorance with the rest of your comment **
"This will be a theme we will see propagating through this forum in various guises as the rabid right posters try and weasel themselves out of an culpability in assisting to spread a toxic, poisonous, deadly message – one that has inspired one of us to travel to New Zealand and slaughter 49 innocent people."

Dear Philip,

«What happened in NZ should not have happened.»

But it did.

Could anything happen without or against God's will?

Then it seems that you blame God, believing that you know better.

«atrocities occur in lots of countries, to stop them the blame for them has to be attributed somewhere hopefully to prevent them occurring again. Or at least stop the frequency of them.»

We all want to have these atrocities stop, but blame is not the answer. Instead, sure, look for future practical solutions if you can - and pray if you cannot.

«Out of 100%, where do people lay the blame for what happened.»

0% for all, but if you insist that it must add up to 100% then I blame myself 100%. Blaming others is destructive and unhealthy.

A few of you may remember when my son was attacked by a bunch of 4 Muslims, while walking home from Allawah railway station a few years back. This was an area, [like Bankstown] they were ethnically cleaning at the time, to make it a good Muslim suburb.

He was lucky, if a couple of passing motorists had not stopped & driven them off he would be dead or a vegetable now. His skull was cracked in 4 places as it was. The cops interviewed him in hospital & told him not to expect any result of their "investigations".

To say I don't like Muslims is putting it rather mildly. Would I go & shoot any of the less guilty ones? No. Do I feel sorrow for those killed, or who's lives have been altered for ever, yes a little, but not as much as for others like my son, or girls raped by their gangs.

Do the aggressive Muslims bring this violence on their brethren, yes most certainly. It will only take this type of attack by some misguided European folk, & retaliation by the aggressive Muslims to turn parts of Oz into a new Beirut.

Can we out grow this, I'm not sure. We did out grow the Irish catholic problem which was nearly as bad 90 years ago. We can only hope, because if we can't, we have real problems

Yuyutsu Quote "Dear Philip,

«What happened in NZ should not have happened.»

But it did.

Could anything happen without or against God's will?

Then it seems that you blame God, believing that you know better."

** Please explain how you arrived at this conclusion "Then it seems that you blame God, believing that you know better" **

** I make no mention of a god or a higher being, and you somehow you have interpreted that I blame an entity that I made no mention of please explain. **

** I see you can't even read properly ** Quote "«Out of 100%, where do people lay the blame for what happened.»"

NOTICE THIS
** CORRECTION **

CHANGE TO WHO IS TO BLAME, doing it proportionally out of 100% is unrealistic with the information we have.

You also said quote "We all want to have these atrocities stop, but blame is not the answer. Instead, sure, look for future practical solutions if you can - and pray if you cannot."

Closed minded statement.
1st Blame is the answer to stopping things like this happening.
Without knowing who contributed to this you can't focus on preventing another occurrence.

Blame so far.
The shooter (need to know his motive etc.)
Where he got the guns.
Media would he have done it if he could not live stream it?
Politicians.
Friends etc of the shooter, did anyone else know what he was going to do.

** You can't "look for future practical solutions" until you analyze the above and probably some I have not thought of. **

Quote "and pray if you cannot." That went well for millions of people over the centuries from the Christians thrown to the lions to the Christians who have been killed for various reasons like refusing to convert to another religion in modern times.

** I think the problem is you appear to be a bible bashing christian and millions of people including myself are not. **

Yuyutsu,
>Could anything happen without or against God's will?

Yes it could. God has given us the power to defy His will.

Dear Philip,

Without God one cannot speak of neither good nor evil.
Without God there is no point to life either, nor anything wrong in murder.
That being the case, no evil was done in NZ so nobody is to blame.
That being the case, my previous post is also irrelevant.

Analysis and blame are two very different things.
The former is appropriate, the latter is not.

One does not need to be a bible bashing Christian in order to pray. I for one am not. Even when prayer fails to change the physical situation, it gives us the fortitude and resilience to instead use whatever happened to us for our spiritual upliftment.

---

Dear Aidan,

God has given us the power to do things that make us feel as if we are defying His will.

The human will is only seemingly separate from the will of God. It is our illusion.

Yuyutsu, god is a construct of weak minded humans & has no effect on any practical thing.

Dear Hasbeen,

«Yuyutsu, god is a construct of weak minded humans & has no effect on any practical thing.»

This must have been the attitude of the NZ murderers and all other murderers, rapists, robbers and drug-lords for that matter.

If that attitude was true, then you yourself would have been a construct of weak minded humans, for if you look carefully into what God is (as opposed to popular prevailing cultural concepts of God, which do have their place), you will conclude that there can be nothing but God - including yourself!

Foxy Quote "This attack show the point in which hostility to Islam and Muslims has reached. This hateful discourse and commentary against Islam and Muslims is turning into a perverse and murderous ideology.
It needs to be held accountable. The world must raise its voice against this type of discourse and it must stop Islamophobic attacks - it must stop the hatred - because like a cancer it is spreading and infecting people."

** Eloquently put but why don't I hear the same rhetoric out of you when there are atrocities by radicals against Christians, non muslims and others? **
_____________________________
I posted this comment by JFK.
** "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." **

And all you could come back with was quote "JFK was right. Violence only begets violence."

He did not mean "Violence only begets violence." for you to say that and believe that is what he meant, only demonstrates your ignorance.

There is a conflict in culture, and that conflict has it's factors from Islamic communities that are easily radicalized into violent indivuals and mobs, to countries that have both half heartedly welcome radicalized Islam into their mists (by some people) as well as reject and isolate Islam and fight to remove it (held by others).

Nothing gets done and nothing gets resolved to make peace, or to at least serve justice when the wrongs of Islamic violence are done. With conditions like that, counter radicalization cultures are very much likely to pop up. It's the open breeding ground for radicalized nationalism, and even just radicalized vigilantism (without a political manifesto added to it).

Want this to not happen again. Then the hard task is to

1) Fix the justice system, so that justice is served when Islamic violence is served to anyone like it was to Hasbeen's son.

And

2) Either find peace with the Muslims living there now, or find a way to kick them out. This finding peace is almost an impossible task because many come to western counties hating everything that western societies represent. So accepting us is as much the task (if not more) as us accepting them. If you can't find peace then radicalized Islam will continue to be a thing, which will only fuel a counter radicalization.

I would settle with just fixing the justice system so that people aren't as easily radicalized into their version of vigilantism, because there's at least some trust in justice being served by the cops and the courts.

For now though, give the Muslim population something you would also want if your community suffered a violent massacre. Kindness and comfort in the days and week that follows the attack. (Not enough to again resist justice if violent Islamic mobs do their thing again, but at least some because kindness in a time of morning is worth doing).

Philip S.,

For your information -

during my entire time on this forum I have always
been against any form of violence. I have made it
quite clear that violence is wrong. My posting
record backs this up.

You need to get the facts straight.

BTW - Have you ever researched JFK?
I have.

Foxy Quote "during my entire time on this forum I have always been against any form of violence. I have made it quite clear that violence is wrong. My posting record backs this up. You need to get the facts straight."

You are so biased you can't even read and comprehend English properly, I wrote -Eloquently put but why don't I hear the same rhetoric out of you when there are atrocities by radicals against Christians, non muslims and others?

Go back and find where you go into the same rhetoric as I stated, yes you have spoken out about things but no where near as much as you did this time.

Here is what you wrote.
""This attack show the point in which hostility to Islam and Muslims has reached. This hateful discourse and commentary against Islam and Muslims is turning into a perverse and murderous ideology.
It needs to be held accountable. The world must raise its voice against this type of discourse and it must stop Islamophobic attacks - it must stop the hatred - because like a cancer it is spreading and infecting people"

Quote "BTW - Have you ever researched JFK? I have."

** Just because you have researched someone or something does not make you and expert or for that matter even knowledgeable on the subject.

Proof of that statement is evident to anyone with half a brain who analyses this example.

I posted this comment by JFK.
** "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." **

You came back with this "JFK was right. Violence only begets violence."
** That is absolutely not what he meant by what he said but you came back implying that's what he meant and he was right.

Dear Foxy,

«during my entire time on this forum I have always
been against any form of violence. I have made it
quite clear that violence is wrong. My posting
record backs this up.»

Four days ago you wrote:

"- he deserves at least 20 years."
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8682#278115

Your cruelty there exceeded even the judge's.

Is it not a form of violence to throw an old and harmless person in jail, a sheep among wolves?

Yuyutsu,

I have discussed the Cardinal Pell case quite
thoroughly on this forum. I have no interest
in discussing it any further with you.

Philip S.,

You interpret JFK's quote one way - I interpreted it to mean
that violence is the only alternative in the face of
repeatedly repressed peaceful demonstration. I would
have thought that was obvious (and violence thus begets
violence). But you don't get it. I really don't care.

You want me to go back into my postal record for you?

Lol.

Foxy Your explanation of what JFK said fail the reality test as you completely ignore the most important part which is "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible" in other words suppressing peoples ability to to get redress for perceived injustices leaves some to think violent actions are their only option.

Just look at the yellow vests in France.

I don't expect you to go through your history because I know you have never that I have seen spoken out so eloquently when atrocities are committed against Christians and others.

Your bias is up there for everyone to read.

Looks like someone else called you out on it and all you can say is "I have no interest in discussing it any further with you.

Philip S.,

Bite me!

Foxy Quote "Philip S., Bite me!"

o sung wu, WROTE
"FOXY you would be one of the most erudite contributors on this Site, and certainly among one of the most intellectual. Your own thoughts are brilliant and well reasoned, and for me at least need no further explanation."
on Wednesday, 13 March 2019 8:54:13 AM

Your above comment tend to make a mockery of his opinion of you and in fact demonstrates the exact opposite.

I don't care what anyone says, I'm totally convinced that the blame for violence such as in NZ has its roots in the Middle East !
The most effective way to spread & thus invite the violence is by pushing people with that mentality into all corners of the world.
The easiest to infiltrate are of course the western countries with their misplaced compassions !

Philip S.,

Are you thick?

Even the nicest people have their limits.

Back off!

Foxy - Watch your blood pressure.

While all the war of words is happening here, can I put who was to blame for this massacre? It was totally the shooter that was guilty of the murders. All adults must answer for themselves and discern what is right behaviour. One cannot blame another's bad behaviour for ones actions.

However let us get some balance here; the media do not present a balanced view they promote entertainment so their stories are emotive for the listeners. On Friday while the shootings in NZ were happening 32 Nigerian Catholic Christians were being gunned down and their Church burnt to the ground. No media report and no sympathy expressed; why? because they were blacks murdering blacks.

From the 7 News we see who turned up at the NZ scene were the Black Power bikie gang they said to support their Muslim brothers. The Muslim community around the World raised their fists and condemned the White right wing [anyone that disagrees with their ideology] as the cause of Islamophobia. According to them opposition is hate. We must have open debate on all ideas without violence or accusations of hate.
All adults must be taught to be restrained from violence even if points of opinion not agreed. Point, "I disagree with your opinion but hold as sacred your right to hold such."

Josephus,
I don't disagree with your assessment. However, when it is said that people must take responsibility for their actions, most observers tend to overlook that only the crazy would carry out a random atrocity.
When the human targets are picked according to a certain affiliation my guess is that strategic planning came about by the perpetrator's beliefs being discriminated against which in turn triggered the planning.
The only reason the NZ (Australian) shooter targeted Mosques was on account of a history of Muslim atrocities ! The same reason really that Muslim extremists are targeting Westerners.
There is no excuse for either, full stop !
Stupidity is probably mankind's worst affliction and, as history has shown, more will be on display before long ! Whites, blacks, Greens, & Brindle stop being stupid !
I for one hope that people of all creeds will sit back & think more & if they can't I hope that those who can will continue to try talk sense into them ! We can only achieve that if the media, educators & entertainment industry get on board !

The The live-streamed massacre of now 50 dead in
New Zealand mosques underlines the reach of a
movement that preaches imagined "European ideals"
that rejects immigration and shares demonisations
and vicious threats and attacks over social media
on the internet. We can also take a look at our
own country's history to put things into perspective
as to why some can be influenced by this thinking:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/17/australians-are-asking-how-did-we-get-here-well-islamopobia-is-practically-enshrined-as-public-policy

cont'd ...

My apologies for the typo.

Here's the link again:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/17/australians-are-asking-how-did-we-get-here-well-islamophobia-is-practically-enshrined-as-public-policy

As you sow, so shall you reap.

I've most likely seen, more violence than anybody else on this Forum. And I'm not boastful. Making me an involuntary victim if you like. Violence in all its forms is positively ugly. There's only one thing worse and even more hideous & revolting - 'Revenge,' pay-back or retaliation!

There is no winner, only losers. Invariably you have to front up to someone's front door, and as sensitively as possible explain, their son, husband or brother will not be coming home - ever! Often leaving a family shattered, and wondering why?

RUNNER said, '...Blame is man's corrupt heart - So very true.

Followed by FOXY's wise JFK quote, '...violence only begets violence...'!

And I agree, the 'news hacks' in our corrupt media, have done so much damage, with their biased, inaccurate reporting

o sung wu, Not very well put with the JFK quote you conveniently ignored the more important quote from JFK "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."

Hi there PHILIP S...

Mate, there are a thousand & one quotes that abound in our lexicons, some even contradictory of others made by the same scholar or sage. It's just I don't have the brains to develop any of my own, that might find favour with your sensibilities.

Moreover, it's not as though JFK was a particularly erudite leader or inspiration, he had a bank of writers for him continually churning out his speeches, all the while he was being unfaithful to his missus Jackie, with Marilyn M. and others. John (Jack) K was a real pants man PHILIP S.

Sure he did stop the Soviet Freighters from taking Nuclear missiles to Castro's Cuba I guess.

Foxy and her biased links again.

Your link is so far left Jason Wilson deliberately leaves out the atrocities perpetrated against others by Islamic inspired teachings and radicals.

** Biased links are one of your specialties, you have really outdone yourself with that one. **

Maybe you can come back with a link that has a more balanced view, instead I expect sarcasm your usual retort.

Philip S.,

Putting up links to broaden discussions is
normal in debating issues. You don't have to
like what is being said or who is saying it.
However, it's usually customary in debating
intelligently not to stoop to personal attacks
but to prove your own case with evidence if
you don't agree with what's being presented.

Therefore, what exactly is Jason Wilson saying
that you dispute? And where is your evidence
to back up your claims?

There's a good chap.

cont'd ...

Jason Wilson was rationalising the history of our
culture and what could have contributed to the
radicalising of the young bloke who took such
desperate action in New Zealand. He was trying
to point out where the blame could lie. Which I assumed
was the theme of your discussion. You should have
specified that you'd prefer answers that would
match your blame game of the demonisation of Muslims.
I then would have left you to continue the debate with
your kindred spirits on this forum.

The current thinking by Western elites is to close any comments on social media that condemn Islamic teaching. Calling it extreme right wing, Islamophobia and hate speech.

This is the Islamic agenda to remove freedom of expression and enforce shariah on expression of ideas contrary to Islam. It also resembles China's totalitarian suppression of ideas not held by the State.

When you see fists in the air by of Muslims in Lakemba Mosque you get the feeling of hate they hold to those not of their faith. It is time to be sympathetic to all; not revengeful.

Foxy Quote "Therefore, what exactly is Jason Wilson saying that you dispute? And where is your evidence to back up your claims?"

Are you illiterate saying someone is biased does not say or imply he is saying anything untrue, get it into your head he is totally one sided which equals biased.

Please supply his indignation to the following events, gee silence.

In Egypt, Islamists Attack Coptic Christian Pilgrims November 2, 2018

Islamic militants opened gunfire on two buses carrying Coptic Christians en route to an ancient monastery in Upper Egypt, killing seven and injuring more than eleven.

In 2017, attacks against Christians included two Coptic church bombings during Palm Sunday processions, killing over 45 people and injuring over 130. In May 2017, gunmen killed 28 Christians who were traveling to the same monastery that the Christians killed in Friday’s attack were visiting. In December 2017, an Islamic extremist shot and killed eleven people at a church in Helwan, Egypt.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/10/christians-egypt-unprecedented-persecution-report

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/islamist-terrorists-attack-coptic-christians-egypt/
________________________________________________

List of Islamist terrorist attacks - by Foxy's favorite

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Islamist_terrorist_attacks

** Thousands of dead and thousands injured. **

If Jason Wilson is not biased he would have had to make reference to at least some of the above, except for Foxy logic.

Philip S.,

I have already answered this response of yours on
another discussion. You are just out to provoke
here. Either that or you really have a serious
problem with comprehension. Either way - I
don't have the time or the crayons to explain things to
you any further.

Foxy You are a hypocrite you put the same link up on 2 threads so I replied to the 2 links you put up on each threads

And you come back with this "You are just out to provoke here."

** therefore the exact same could be used to describe your actions of putting the same link on 2 threads. **

** Foxy logic, I can do it you can't. **

Foxy logic will be an ongoing feature on OLO.

In my own family there is a spectrum of political opinion. All are good people with good intentions from my perspective. I think the line crossed when you think your opinions unchallengeable and believe those opposing them to be malevolent and pernicious.

the line crossed when you think your opinions unchallengeable and believe those opposing them to be malevolent and pernicious.
Fester,
Agree, however, when you debate with people who on principle will not accept fact & logic then the best way is to walk away but watch them catching themselves out !

We all get things wrong. Scientists, working with facts and logic, will expect that nearly all their assumptions and predictions will be wrong. What I like to think is that even those with opinions I disagree with strongly are acting from a benevolent standpoint. The gunman in Christchurch felt he was acting for the public good. The 100 million plus murders in the name of socialist regimes were committed by people with similar motivation. Identity politics can have horrific consequences.

The gunman in Christchurch felt he was acting for the public good.
Fester,
I'm afraid I can't get myself to subscribe to that assumption. My perception is that he just had a gutful of the nonsensical, biased, excuses, failings of authorities & the general pussy-footing that our society has been subjected to by academic invented & pushed PC.
A society with a Justice & social system which harbours the perpetrator & persecutes the victim.

Hopefully one day psychologist will be able to get inside the mind of Brendon Tarrant and shed some light on what drove a man of 28 to go to the extreme of committing mass murder. The answer to what motivated Tarrant wont be simple, what led to his radicalisation in the first instance will be extremely complex, there wont be one single factor, it will be an irrational answer with a multitude of different issues and concerns in Tarrant's mind which drove him to his final act. To Tarrant what drove him to this insidious act will be abundantly clear and logical, totally justified. One thing we cannot expect is any kind of remorse from Tarrant for his murderous actions, he may express some regret that he found it "necessary" to do what he did, but there will most likely nothing else.

To understand the Muslim mind, you must look at the events in the Dutch city of Utrecht. Three people were killed, and three others seriously wounded in the gun attack. Turkish-born suspect Gokmen Tanis was detained on Monday evening. He was there to honour kill his sister for her infidelity. That in his mind was the will of Allah, that others were killed in the process was also the will of Allah. In Islam he is a hero! If he had been killed in the act he would be a martyr.

The values of Islam contravene our Western Christian values of “Thou shall not kill”. The Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has called on New Zealand to restore the death penalty for the gunman who killed 50 people at two mosques. You see this is the Muslim method to eradicate opposition as he has done to thousands in Turkey. Turkey's president has issued a warning to anti-Muslim Australians that they will be returned home in body bags. It is acceptable in Islam to kill your political opponents; it is not acceptable in our society to kill your political opponents. You debate their ideas, to quote, the pen is mightier than the sword.
However our kowtowing politicians to Islamic ideology to gain votes, are censuring free speech by closing down those that criticise Islamic ideology. To criticise Islam is now called Hate speech, to criticise Christianity is acceptable practise and purifies debate and behaviour.

Dear Josephus,

I know it's a bit off-topic, but did you seriously mean:

«...our Western Christian values of “Thou shall not kill”»

Have Western Christians not killed millions, especially in wars?
Does the Western Christian nation of the U.S.A not still routinely execute convicted criminals?
Don't Western Christians on average kill more animals for food than others?

"A Sanhedrin that puts a man to death once in seven years is called a murderous one.", http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/15204/how-many-people-were-killed-by-the-sanhedrin-around-the-time-of-paul

“Thou shall not kill”
Yuyutsu,
I don't for one minute believe that was correctly translated.
I think it was "thou shall not murder".
There's even reference to cities of refuge in the old Bible for people who killed rather than murdered.

Oh dear oh dear,
I have read through all the posts on this thread having
only just come across it.
No one, searching for the cause for the slaughter not just in NZ but
everywhere else, has mentioned the foundation of it all.

The cause lays with the author of the Koran.
The Koran is fixed and cannot be altered in any way, on pain of death.
The author is Allah and so even suggesting to update it to modern
themes is blasphemy and punishable by death.

All muslims must accept the Koran as is or they will be declared not
to be muslim and possibly apostates. In the west they do not seem to
enforce those laws so rigidly. However countries such as Saudi Arabia
and Iran do exercise the death penalty almost at the drop of a hat.

I have a list of verses that I believe are the source of some of the
troubles between Islam and the rest, not just Christianity.

Not sure where they are hiding, I will put the verses up in another post.

Ahh found it quickly.
Trigger warning Islamaphobic text below

The Koran has many verses that incite the believers to kill nonmuslims.
Many verses are aimed at the Jews. Historical context, many Jewish
villages were in the Arabian Peninsular and Mesopotamia.

· Jews are the greediest of all humankind.
They'd like to live 1000 years. But they are going to hell. (2:96)

Kill disbelievers wherever you find them. If they attack you, then
kill them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. (2:191)

Make war on the infidels living in your neighbourhood. (9:123)

Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or
refuse to pay Jizya tax. (9:29)

Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable. (3:85)

Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticise Islam. (5:33)

Do not hope for peace with the infidels - behead them when you catch them. (47:4)

The unbelievers are stupid. Urge the Muslims to fight them. (8:65)

Terrorise and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Koran. (8:12)

Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorise the infidels. (8:60)

Have no unbelieving friends. Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. (4:89)

If the unbelievers do not offer you peace, kill them wherever you find them.
Against such you are given clear warrant. (4:91)

The disbelievers are an open enemy to you. (4:101)

Allah has cursed the Jews and hardened their hearts.
Nearly all of them are treacherous. (5:12)

Continued

Continued;
Don't take Jews or Christians for friends.
If you do, then Allah will consider you to be one of them. (5:51)

Those who disbelieve will be forced to drink boiling water and will face a painful doom. (6:70)

Don't let the disbelievers think they can escape. They are your enemy and the enemy of Allah. (8:59)

Don't make treaties with non-Muslims. They are all evildoers and should not be trusted. (9:7)

Treat converts to Islam well. Kill those who refuse to convert. (9:5)

Christians and Jews are perverse. Allah himself fights against them. 9:30

Stay away from non-Muslims. They are all liars. 9:107

Those who oppose Islam will be slain with a fierce slaughter. 33:60-61

Don't be friends with disbelievers. They are your (and Allah's) enemy. 60:1

This last verse is emphasized from what I have read and is used to
stop muslims from integrating into the country.
They are told by the radical Immans that if they do something that is
permitted by Sharia law or the Koran that the law of the country does
not apply.
No muslim will deny any part of these scriptures.

I believe that the Koran is the ultimate cause of all the troubles
between Muslims and everyone else. The Hadiths just reinforce the
Koran by using episodes in the Life of Mohammad as the perfect example
of man including the genocides of the first years of Islam.

Dear Individual,

«I think it was "thou shall not murder."»

More or less correct, but the biblical language does not dissect the world in exactly the same way as English (or even modern Hebrew).

For example, the Hebrew word for "hand" means both the palm of the hand the the lower arm, whereas "arm" means only the upper arm: English language dissects the upper human limb at the wrist, while Hebrew dissects it at the elbow!

«There's even reference to cities of refuge in the old Bible for people who killed rather than murdered.»

Yes in the English translation, but both Deuteronomy 4 and Joshua 20 use the word "murderer" rather than "killer", an inclination of the same word used in the ten commandments. Accordingly, it is possible to murder "by mistake" or "without knowing".

Following through the biblical examples, it appears that "killing" there means the physical act of striking (with or without a weapon or instrument) when that causes death, whereas "murder" includes all causings of death.

So in biblical language, if one poisons another or hires someone else to kill him, then they are a murderer, but not a killer.

Dear Bazz,

«The author is Allah»

And you believe this??

I don't. I firmly believe that the Koran is counterfeit, not the word of God.

Had your statement been correct, then the Koran too would be correct and no Muslim was to blame for following its instructions.

it is possible to murder "by mistake" or "without knowing".
Yuyutsu,
It is my view that a murderer plans & causes the death of another. A killer is someone who (obviously) kills people for money i.e. assassin.
Then you have people who need to be killed because they're plain & simply bad & dangerous.
There's nothing noble or compassionate about keeping animals of human form !

Dear Individual,

My point was linguistic:

«it is possible to murder "by mistake" or "without knowing".»

In English, no.
According to biblical Hebrew, yes.
They are not the same, so no accurate word-for-word translation is possible.

When "hand" is mentioned in the bible, it also includes the lower arm.
When "murder" is mentioned in the bible, including where it is forbidden by the ten commandments, it also includes what in English is called "manslaughter", but has no exact Hebrew equivalent word.

You are correct it is meant to have deliberate motive which is murder. The English for kill does not express motive as murder does.

Again the Islamophobe tries to tar two billion people with the same brush. Yep, they all think alike, they all act alike, totally mindless radical adherents to their religion. Claims to be an authority of some sort on Islam, seems to know nothing. Does this also apply to Christianity? Of course not, is not the Bible the word of God, do not all Christians mindlessly adhere to their religion? Anyone could cut and paste many lines of objectionable text from the Christian Bible, and claim that is what all Christians believe.

Bazz lets be frank, it people like you trying as hard as you can to whip up mass Islamophobia that allows people like Tarrant to justify in their minds the rightfulness of their actions against innocent people. Given another Islamophobe was asking for a percentage of blame to be apportioned (ridiculous), give yourself and the questioner a few percent which you could rightly deserve.

It is important to note the NZ gunman was not influenced by Right wing social media or commercial media or Pauline Hansen or Anning's presentations. His ideology revealed in his manifesto was influenced by Communist China left wing atheism.

http://vision.org.au/blog/2019/03/19/what-the-chistchurch-gunmans-manifesto-actually-says/?fbclid=IwAR31UkpyKoSCBgJ5PZvwg0DMeEoXo1jSqvD7Sjez_F_6Dcwl8FSTxvFq6UM

Paul is barking up the wrong path if he believes he was influenced by right wing ideology

Guwd Paul, you really do try hard to be dopey.
My purpose in putting up those verses was to show those have not been
aware what is behind many attitudes of muslims.
As you probably know a muslim or two, ask them if they consider them
to be valid. If he denies them then he is not a muslim.
There is an escape clause that he can lie to you if it is to the advantage to Islam.

If you cannot answer this sensibly then just leave your head in the
sand and do not answer.

Josephus, peddling ten to the dozen fella, trying to deflect the actions of one extreme Islamophobe from the rest of you Islamophobes. You banged on continuously with hate speak against all Muslims, got it all wrong, yet you still try and sanitise your part in the whole grubby mess.
Fess up fella, like a good little christian, and do some penance for your sins.

Philip Jenkins Boston Globe;

"But in terms of ordering violence and bloodshed, any simplistic claim about the superiority of the Bible to the Koran would be wildly wrong. In fact, the Bible overflows with "texts of terror," to borrow a phrase coined by the American theologian Phyllis Trible. The Bible contains far more verses praising or urging bloodshed than does the Koran, and biblical violence is often far more extreme, and marked by more indiscriminate savagery. The Koran often urges believers to fight, yet it also commands that enemies be shown mercy when they surrender. Some frightful portions of the Bible, by contrast, go much further in ordering the total extermination of enemies, of whole families and races - of men, women, and children, and even their livestock, with no quarter granted."

Bazz, are all who profess to be Christian in total agreement with every word of the Holy Bible? If not, why not!

Paul you have no idea of progressive Biblical revelation. Mohamed learnt his theology from the Old Testament because he felt as a brother of descendants from Abraham. Israel in the OT was seeking survival in a hostile World. The New Testament is a New covenant, no longer an eye for an eye, which is currently a Muslim value; the NT outlines, pray for your enemy, give a cup of cold water to your enemy, forgive your enemy, show care for your enemy. Which currently Israel and the Christian influenced West do for injured enemy persons they capture as aggressors.

You are deflecting your loss of argument by an attempt to point score from ancient times - fail. Take a look at the plight and behaviour of Christians in Syria, Iraq and Nigeria in the last few years. We do not need to go back to Bible Times, hundreds of thousands of defenceless Christians murdered in the name of Allah as sanctioned by the current standard of the Koran which they believe is infallible.

Proportionally - where does the blame lay.

With Sheeple & progressives !

Josephus, what on earth is "progressive Biblical revelation" sounds like a fancy euphemism to sugar coat the nasty biblical bits. I will say the Christian god has been reinvented several times over the ages. A short while ago your god was presented as a hateful vengeful god intent on punishment, today there has been a shift to a more merciful loving god intent on forgiveness. The book hasn't changed, just mainstream Christian attitude as evident by the fact that in 2019 I can bang on the keyboard and say these things. In 1619 it would have been a different story, I'd be a pile of ashes at the bottom of a burn stake.

The notion that all Muslims are a homogeneous lot who engage in the one line of literal thinking based on the fundamentalism of the Koran is untrue. Its no more truer than to say all Christians are fundamentalists who take every word of the Bible literally.

Muslim extremism is a political movement which has grown out of secular grievances, its not religious. The commonality of religion and the extremism contained in some parts of the text of Islam has been used as a focus to legitimise and justify the call for action. This is evident in the fact extremists, using the Islamic religion as justification, kill more Muslims than Christians. If the intention is to unite all Muslims against all Christians in a religious war the extremist are going about it in the wrong way, alienating the majority of their own through act of terror against them wont work for them.

Paul, the writings attributed to Moses were written to a developing nation to give them direction and law among pagan cultures. Through the following history of Israel, schools of prophets gave warnings to the nation for their interaction with other nations, behaviours and beliefs. Jesus opens up a new understanding by his messages, "You have heard it said, but I say'. Read Matthew's sermon on the Mount, e.g. you shall not murder; but I say if you have a hate in your heart that you wish him dead you have as good as murdered [paraphrase]. If you have lust in your heart for sex with someone not your wife, you have already committed adultery [paraphrase].

Ideas have greater power than the gun, the pen is mightier than the sword. The web post below, I watched the interview but it seems to have been removed because of promoting terror.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/i-have-nothing-more-to-say-cnns-stelter-battles-islamic-cleric-over-hannity-propaganda/

Foxy,
All you have to do is to get muslims to stop their terrorist actions and the violence will stop. Have you thought of that. Easy is it not?

Paul, understand what is the Muslim Caliphate. Which is a "call to hate" anything not prescribed by Allah and bring it unto submission [= Islam]. Anyone bearing that ideology that is their mission. Silence all opposition as it is not of Allah. They have a licence to murder anyone not living and following Allah's laws. e.g. A woman found in adultery is to be stoned to death [compare Jesus words John 8].It is not a new revelation they hate Western values and laws. As they rise in power they will introduce Shariah law. In their mind women are lesser creatures who are responsible for sin.
http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwj7-fvsn5fhAhWbfH0KHRFTBeQQFjABegQIAhAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2019%2F03%2F06%2Fworld%2Fmiddleeast%2Fnasrin-sotoudeh-iran-head-covering.html&usg=AOvVaw2_cZvvAb0FzGfhUJxDx4iV

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5796747/David-Jones-goes-inside-Britains-secretive-sharia-courts-special-report.html


Your quote:
Muslim extremism is a political movement which has grown out of secular grievances, its not religious.

Your claims are laughable. Is not borne out of grievances, it is a prescribed religious law, to bring the whole World under Allah's law. It has been a movement of such for 1,400 years, of hate of others laws and values. However the Greens and Labor are giving them succour by carrying on about extremism and hate speech, when in Islam's eyes they bear no guilt for their action as they are doing Allah's will. It will not cease while they are reading the Koran and listening to Imams.

I blame the TV networks.

If they had not shown a couple of tall New York buildings falling to the ground, or ISIS beheadings, the general population of western countries may nor have known what disgusting hateful acts Muslims promote & glory in.

Hell if they had not shown a Turkey Prime minister threatening to send Ozzie tourists home in caskets, we may even be stupid enough to not know Muslims hate infidels.

Where does the blame lay? Come on folks.

We all know that not every muslim takes part in, or even supports
Islamist terrorism. However their families are tightly held together
by the religion by very long custom.
They find it difficult to take a stand that is different to the mosque.
It is similar and probably related to the honor system that is attached to women.
That is why you hear the Imman tut tut when an Islamist attack occurs.
You only hear very prominent muslims speak out.
Never do you see them demonstrate in the street to oppose the attackers.
That would bring the Imman and mosque down on them.

The blame game being played here is ridiculous. He who pulls the
trigger is to blame and if there is a movement that practically supports
him they are likewise to blame.
Anyone who tries to blow it out to hundreds or thousands of people
nowhere near the perpetrators is just a stupid egotistical would be
intellectual twit.

Bazz,
You're waking the apologists from the dreams that provide the apologists with that warm'b fozzy feeling !
Just wait till Adern has to start dealing with the onslaught !