Yuyutsu,

On the contrary, this thread has finally got sensible. For example, I can’t believe it took so long for it be pointed out (particularly considering the wording in the OP) that is it those who assert that there is an afterlife who bear the burden of proof for that claim, and that until that burden is fulfilled, the default position is disbelief.

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NathanJ’s wording in the OP does not come as a surprise to me, though. His posting history (and deeply misguided follow-up post in this thread, critiquing only the points put forth by atheists) suggests that he has a bone to pick with atheists, so it is understandable that he would want to saddle them with a burden of proof. At no point does NathanJ note that those who actually bare the burden of proof have provided precisely squat.

<<My mind is not fixed on the issue as I have not seen, read or come across any detail or facts to prove it to be non-existent.>>

This thread appears to have only been a challenge to atheists to disprove something they have no obligation to disprove. If not, then the above is expressed in a very muddle-headed way.

From about at least 250,000 years ago people have had some what you could call religious beliefs. They buried their dead. But this is no proof they believe in the afterlife, until much later, when chieftains or kings, etc., were buried with goods, and sometimes humans, live ones. Then we have an explosion of beliefs (not necessarily in the afterlife) when the Venus figurines were widely used and probably worshiped. She is a fat pregnant woman. This is during the last ice age. Obviously the natural environment was harsh, and being fat and pregnant might have been so important as all fertility in the land, and all living creatures.

But as our cultures evolved the main concern has changed. So have any religious ceremonies or worship. Scientology well wealth and success, if you get rid of all those nasty Thetans, and Go Clear. Actually Tom Cruise films were banned in some country because he was the main promoter of Scientology.

Anyway, I think the community churches in America will survive all these neo false prophets. They have no specific dogma or indoctrination, but are there to bring communities
together in moral sense, and they act as a welfare organization too. There is some singing but no priests or rabbis, just ordinary men and woman, who preach goodness and understanding. America is a huge country, what over 300 million citizens. But how could they let Ron Hubbard, Jones Town, the Moonies, Heaven's Gate, attract followers, is crazy. And the Davidians, promoted and supported by the SDA church.

Dear Bunny,

«From about at least 250,000 years ago people have had some what you could call religious beliefs.»

Well yes, one could call anything under the sun a "religious belief", but would that actually render the belief in question as religious?

Religiousness is not an attribute of beliefs - the same [practically any] belief can be religious or otherwise, depending on context, by whom and how it is utilised.

«They buried their dead. But this is no proof they believe in the afterlife»

Indeed - the concept of "afterlife" erroneously assumes that life can end, rather than simply change, so that something different may follow, but all that actually ended was the dead body and possibly also the mind that was attached to it. All it means is that the former "owner" of that body might experience the ultimate disability as they will no longer be able to exercise the functions which they used to exercise through that body. You may consider it sad, you may even consider it extremely undesirable, yet nothing happened to life itself!

Yuyutsi,

They were capable of abstract thought or thinking. Spiritual matters are different from religious dogma.

To AJ Philips. I agree it would have to be an extreme case of yelling for me to consider calling child services. But if the kids shows signs of abuse or I am aware of what's going on, I would probably try to intervene in some way. Possibly calling the authorities if it gets worse. But I think where you and I disagree on is what counts as abuse. It sounds like that your definition of abuse gets very close to just things that are hurtful, but not abusive.

As for indoctrination. By what you've said I take it you can't think critically about religion unless you don't believe it. Consider theology and how people try to critically consider the teachings of their beliefs, or also how to act on their beliefs. Not that that's a main point, but think about how much society places a doubt on religious beliefs. I doubt many Christians hold their beliefs without critically thinking about both the beliefs and their criticisms. So far the doubts don't hold up as well as trust in God and His teachings.

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A main point however is a fear of hell. So let's talk about it. ... Unless you think it's abusive to do so...

Hell, and the various descriptions of it indeed are worth being afraid of. And as you've said if it's not a lie then parents have an obligation to warn their children. It it abuse? No. God made hell as a punishment for the devil. And Jesus did not come to save the devil. He did however complete the narrative God had been telling through the history and prophets of Israel. To redeem the people. Over and over again God shows His willingness to redeem and to rescue. Even Jonah was an example of God's willingness to rescue. Jonah was told to deliver a message to one of Israel's enemies. A warning of God's judgment. Jonah ran from this responsibility knowing that if he warned them and they turned from their sins God would forgive them.

Hell is worth having a fear of, but God does not want anyone except Satan and those who rebelled with Satan to go there. If we turn to God and believe in Jesus who became our ultimate redemption price, then God will keep us from that fate too. We're not saved because we're good enough and earned it. We're saved if we believe Jesus and accept the costly sacrifice that Jesus paid. It's open for anyone. Turn from your sins. Strive to fight against them. But even if anyone does do wrong, pray and try to make right what you did, and know that you're redeemed by believing and accepting Jesus's ransom gift for us. In this way not only will we be redeemed of our sins but also cleansed from them. Made clean.