Dear Bunny,

«They were capable of abstract thought or thinking. Spiritual matters are different from religious dogma.»

If a dogma helps one to come closer to God, then it is religious (for its believers/practitioners) - if it doesn't, then it is just a dogma.

Abstract thoughts need not be spiritual.

Can you please point out what in your view differentiates the spiritual from the religious?

«Does anyone think Hell is on earth, not in the afterlife.»

Hell is not a place but a subjective state of being, thus you could experience hell even while your body is on earth (more accurately, while you associate yourself with biological earthly body(s)).

«They say that religious folk are trying to avoid going to hell.»

And others don't?

(they just do not use that cultural term, but they still try to avoid it as best they can)

«Just remember the Roman Catholics have Purgatory where the sinners go to suffer and contemplate their sins before going to heaven. Hedging ones bets, eh?»

No, just more realistic and closer to the truth on that count.

To Bush Bunny. The discriptions that we now count as discriptions of hell don't fit any discription I know of while on earth. But as to the suffering that happens here on earth, your right that there needs to be more then just talking the talk and quoting the bible (or quoting any other philosophy) but also to act on what you believe. To show compassion and understanding.

Honestly that's not something that can be done for every sitution. If someone hasn't been through their own problems, their solutions are sometimes hollow and don't actually help. I don't expect myself to be able to understand and help someone who's come back from active combat in any war or military action. But I can still be there for anyone that I meet and have the oppurtunity to show compassion to.

Forgiveness is a huge thing. Another aspect to it is to let God handle the matter and to not be the one to hold the unforgiving grudge. But forgiveness is no easy task. In my opinion forgiveness is only easy, when the other person did not do anything whorth being forgiven. In all cases where there's a great amount of hurt, forgiveness is a task in itself. But it is still important. Expecially if the other person asks for forgiveness, or tries to make things right.

To AJ Philips.

[You have not yet demonstrated this. This is just an assertion.]

Keep reading through that same post. If my talking about hell is abusive to you then you can say I haven't demonstrated it. If you do see it as being abusive to you though, then I'll be shocked and again stand by our different assertions of what counts as abuse and what doesn't.

[You don’t need to start preaching. I know the backstory. In fact, the rest of your post is just preaching.]

How else can I demonstrate that teaching about hell is not abusive?

The rest of your reply is about what I taught. But before going there, I need an answer. Do you feel like I was abusive to you for "preaching" to you? If so please explain why.

I explained hell in the same way you might be explained any other danger in the world, and even gave how to avoid that danger. Like avoiding being hit by a bus by looking both ways before crossing the street. Warn of a danger and then giving a solution to avoid the danger is not abusive. If it was not abusive to you, then understand my position that teaching about hell is not abusive. It's warning of a danger, and if done right also gives how to avoid that danger. From my understanding, avoiding Hell is something God gives us, not something we earn. It's not the abusive fear you've probably been taught. Look to God, believe in Jesus, Follow Jesus's teachings. From that start God is on your side and will keep you, and even cleanse you of the sins and wrongs that are hard for you to stop doing on your own.

I did, Not_Now.Soon,

<<Keep reading through that same post.>>

I was accounting for the rest of your post, too, when I said that you had not yet demonstrated that teaching children about Hell was abuse.

<<If my talking about hell is abusive to you then you can say I haven't demonstrated it.>>

No, at no point have I even suggested that all talk of Hell was abusive. I have made it abundantly clear that “telling a child that a place like Hell exists and that that’s where non-believers or bad people go, is abusive - no matter how gently it’s put.”

<<If you do see it as being abusive to you though …>>

There is a world of difference between discussing an obviously fictitious place with an adult, and telling a vulnerable child - whose critical thinking skills have not yet fully developed - that a place like Hell awaits certain people.

So, no, you have not yet demonstrated that teaching children that a place like Hell awaits is not abuse.

<<How else can I demonstrate that teaching about hell is not abusive?>>

By providing objective evidence for its existence. I’ve explained this twice now (See the links below).

Do you have any other suggestions that do not rely on unproven assertions?

<<Do you feel like I was abusive to you for "preaching" to you? If so please explain why.>>

No, and my explanation as to why can be found above - where you first fallaciously shifted the goalposts like this.

<<I explained hell in the same way you might be explained any other danger in the world …>>

Only, unlike with other dangers, you cannot demonstrate that Hell is a possibility. I’ve been through this twice before now:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255515
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#255683

Think about this! The spiritual influence that a deceased person has on society for good values places the eternal value of good into the psyche of future generations [heaven]; the opposite is the destructive spiritual behaviours places the spirit of the evil person into hell. We can each think of persons that have left images for good or evil on society. People who make no healthy contribution to the values of society their spirit has descended into hell the place of eternal torment and extinction. God is one holy spirit in character, actions and wisdom. He is not spatial, God is present in the character, behaviour and wisdom expressed in Jesus Christ. In that aspect he is Son of God, because his spirit reflected the nature of God, similarly persons born again [ having their sin nature dealt with] of the spirit of God are also in character, behaviour and wisdom sons of God. There is no Trinity, there is ONE Divine Spirit - revealed in right character, behaviour and wisdom. Selfish and rebellious man is the opponent of God; the satan of the nature of God. God is not limited to three boxed persons, God is ONE Spirit revealed in all and through all. Jesus in his human identity was mortal and limited to a short life. Philippians 2 states his humanity was not divine, it was laid aside by his birth as human, and his death.

Another point, Not_Now.Soon.

<<From my understanding, avoiding Hell is something God gives us, not something we earn.>>

This is pure sophistry.

If/when you have children of your own, avoiding a lifetime of torture in your basement may not be something you expect them to earn, but if you will allow them to be tortured in your basement for the rest of their lives under certain conditions, when you are the one who makes the rules as to whether or not this can happen, then you are an evil monster. The fact that your god let’s anyone suffer an eternity of torment makes him an evil monster.

Infinite punishment for finite crimes is infinitely immoral. Your theology is immoral.