Is there life after death? My mind is not fixed on the issue as I have not seen, read or come across any detail or facts to prove it to be non-existent.

I need a persuasive case to take my mind in a particular direction.

Dear Nathan,

Death is only of your body - You never die.

Life, either without a body or with a different body, may not be exactly what you want at the moment or what you are currently willing to call "a life": it will be experienced differently of course and your memories will likely be all erased as well (because they are stored in your brain, which is part of your body), but still despite those inconveniences, life itself will go on uninterrupted.

The Lord Jesus Christ proved there was. Unlike every other god He never lied but fulfilled His promise.

To NathanJ.

I hope you are doing well. Because the topic of death and life after death comes up for both the reason for searching if it's true or not, as well as sometimes for the purpose of seeking a way out and assurances for themself with a future plan of suicide. I know that second perspective is more rare, but ether way I hope you are doing well. Suicide brings so much grief and loss from those who survive I hope no one considers it, for nothing else for the sake of those they will leave behind.

Life does seem to exist after death. Not just because of a belief system to hold on to but also due to strange phenomon that seems to be common enough to consider, but not common enough to seek further answers through.

The first kind of incidents that I want to share are experiences of those nearing death. Though rare, I 've heard enough stories of elderly indivuals say thay have been visited by a loved one who was already dead or by Jesus Himself. Kind of an assurance before that person dies themself. Then not long after they do pass on.

(Continued)

(Continued)

The second kind of experience are still rare, but are from people who have been very close to death but come back from it. Survived something that for a short time put them in a coma or where they were for a short time clinically dead. Some of those experiences say the indivual had an out of body experience and can discribe what was happening arond them, even in rooms that the the person's body isn't at. Of these experiences some even say they travel to a heaven or a hell kind of place. Presumably where they would be going after they really do die. It usually acts as an encouragement for new life for the person once they come back, or acts as a fierce warning for them to change and do something different, so they don't end up in that hell kind of destination.

The third kind of experience is after death. Occasionally there are stories of some kind of sign, or a dream, or some other means that those morning the loss of a loved one experience to comfort them. A sign that everything's ok and that that person is alright.

A forth strange phenomon is the topic of ghosts in general. Aside from spooky stories told to frighten people, there are also stories of people
experiencing something from a family member or a friend who passed on.

(Continued)

All of these types of events point to there being life in some form after we die. But it is hard to go into much conclusions after that because these experiences are rare, and also because the interest in this has made some people fake their own stories for a bit of fame through it or for a chance of extra money through the interest or through a book. So unfortunately outside of knowing that life exists in some form after we die, to know more you Probabley need to look at a religion and seek answers there. Look to see if you can believe the religion before you accept their findings of death and life after death. I've found a great amount of merit through Christian teachings, and am encouraged about the conclusions in Christianity for life after death. You'll have to seek on your own though too.

I think I heard one person on these forums who said he had an NDE and survived it to be able to share it. He's said that life definitely exists after death and seemed to show frustration in the topic when that point was ignored in the ongoing conversation. So it's not so rare of an experience that you won't kind people who have had it.

Again I hope you are doing well, and this is more of a mild intrerest in the topic or a spiritual search, instead of searching for a way out of life. If you need to talk, I'll give you my email, but I hope you can find someone who can reach out and hold you if there's a need.

Other than a belief, there is no evidence for life after death. NNS talks of people claiming near death experiences, which include encounters with departed love ones, even "Jesus" himself, but those in themselves are not proof. Nor are claims of "out of body experiences", they also do not prove that there is life after death. I do not doubt that people have had these "experiences", well at least in their minds they have such encounters. but the reality is they may be no more than the mind itself giving an illusion of some non existent reality.

Throughout history, many have claimed encounters with supernatural beings, including visits by the spiritual types, space aliens and departed love ones, god, Jesus and the saints, the whole gamut of supernatural beings. One of the most famous claimed apparitions is the so called visitations by the Virgin Mary to three devout Catholic children at Fatima Portugal in 1917. In the context of the world at the time, such a visitation was timely for the Catholic Church. Did it actually happen, or was it a mind encounter passed to three innocent children, and then exploited by the Church for its own ends.

//Life does seem to exist after death.//

Any objective research to back that up?

//Though rare, I 've heard enough stories of elderly indivuals say thay have been visited by a loved one who was already dead or by Jesus Himself.//

Any evidence that these are not just hallucinations?

//Some of those experiences say the indivual had an out of body experience and can discribe what was happening arond them, even in rooms that the the person's body isn't at.//

Umm... no. Check out the research of Dr. Sam Parnia who conducted a rather brilliant experiment in hospitals a few years ago, in which he placed images on high shelves only visible from the ceiling. Anybody who claimed to have left their body and be near the ceiling during resuscitation attempts would be expected to identify those images. If their perceptions of OBE's were merely psychological, i.e. illusory or false memories, then they would not be expected to have seen the images.

Wanna guess what the results were?

//Occasionally there are stories of some kind of sign, or a dream, or some other means that those morning the loss of a loved one experience to comfort them.//

Seriously? People dreaming about their loved ones after they've died? That's your hard-and-fast proof of the afterlife? Jesus...

I've been known to dream of my late dog, who passed away a few years ago. Presumably that means that all dogs do indeed go to heaven.

But according to the Christian apologetics site I looked at:

"In order for one to be saved, one has to believe in Jesus. But animals cannot exercise saving faith in Jesus."

So I guess we can definitively conclude that dogs don't go to heaven at all. Which leaves us with a bit of a paradox.

//A forth strange phenomon is the topic of ghosts in general.//

And we're back to hallucinations.

Why do people think that hallucinations constitute proof of anything other than the fact that people hallucinate sometimes? Seems like an odd thing to believe.

Is there life after death?

I firmly believe that there is.

But for those wanting some substantial proof -
some scientific evidence? I can only say that
my belief is based on faith and my religion.
I think that only the most bitter and cynical
among us would still cling to the thoughts of
a soulless world. I hold the conviction that
the heart, not the brain, is the light of
the world. My intellect must bow to my
spiritual impulse. But that's just my personal
view. Others will certainly feel differently.
My mother passed away peacefully on 26th January
2018.

I would find it very difficult not to
believe that one day we shall meet again.

cont'd ...

"Two tired eyes are sleeping
Two weary hands are still
The one who worked so hard for us
Is resting at God's will
Always loving and kind
She never deserved what she went through
If she could have spoken before she died
These are the words she would have said

'This life for me is truly passed
I loved you all until the last
Weep not for me and courage take
Love one another for my sake
As life goes on and you get older
My hand will come down
And rest on your shoulder
So don't weep for me
Just pray and remember me lovingly
Until we meet again.' "

Sentinel life does seem highly unlikely, the number of souls to be accommodated is mindboggling.

However we do pass on our DNA to our progeny, & that after all is the essence of us. So not immortal, as the human race will probably become extinct some time, but something of most of us will be around till then.

To Paul1405. I find it hard to believe that of the 4 types of events I discribed regarding strange events around death, that you don't know at least one person who you regard as rational and trustworthy who has experienced one of those 4 types. I have a hard time believing anyone is that isolated from these strange occurances, they thry or someone they trust haven't had one of them. But if you really don't know of anyone like that, then I'd recommend you to open your eyes. I assume there is a little bit of tunnel vision going on if you are unaware of these things as holding some weight in the real world, not just in someone's mind.

To Toni Lavis. I give the same message I gave Paul1405. But also you said "any objective reasurch?" So no. Just experiences I've heard from others. But with two qualifying aspects to consider. 1) Is this person I hear this story from a reliable person? Or in general would I trust what they say and their testimony on other things. And 2) Is there anything that that person would gain by lying about their story, or anything to discredit their view? If the answer is no on both then that counts as evidance to consider. To weigh on your own after they've said their tale.

"Check out the research of Dr. Sam Parnia."

I'll have to look into it. Thanks for the reference. I hope the reasurch is reasonable. I wouldn't expect a witness of a crime at the grocery store to remember and identify different products on the store shelves while someone is robing the place. It would be more resonable to think that witness's attention was diverted elsewhere. This could be the case in Sam Parnia's study, or it might be something more reasonable. I'll have to look into it.

NNS, thousands, if not millions of people claim to have experienced these "deathly" occurrences. Many are completely rational and trustworthy people. I don't doubt that most do genuinely and sincerely believe their experience to be true. Having said that, its not proof that what they believe happened, in reality did happen. Are you familiar with the expression "deja vu" which all of us have experienced from time to time. That feeling that some event has previous occurred, and we are reliving that experience for a second time. Deja vu is for an instant believed by us to be true, when the reality is soon realized that the mind is the culprit, and not some mystical unseen controlling force fooling around with place and time.

All this mystic nonsense appeals to the religious among us, as they search for proof that there is some truth to their rather questionable faith.

I myself have had an out of body experience during high temperature as a 12 year old child looking down on my body lying on the bed. However I do not believe there is a continuation of consciousness of the individual after death. What is the hope lies in the continuation of the spirit of the person as lived in the new generation we give birth too. I do not believe in the reclamation of the cells of the body we lived in during our life. The New Testament talks about new bodies 2 Corinthians 5 in which the character of Christ is evident. We are talking about the continuation of character not about our present mortal bodies.

From the website: http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/life-after-death/. Each "fact" has its own wording on the website, but I will put my thoughts, "facts", feelings etc. here.

Fact one: Every creature is “programmed” to die in the name of evolutionary adaptation. That is the naked truth.

Who decided on that?

Fact two: We have a strong yearning for immortality.

A strong yearning for immortality? I don't think about it much at all. That element is assuming a lot of people may want a strong yearning for immortality that many in the community actually don't have.

Fact three: Humans will do almost anything for the perceived reward of “eternal life”.

What jump off a cliff? Swim with sharks? Where is the line drawn?

Fact four: Religions do not represent any kind of objective truth and therefore their “supernatural” element cannot be trusted to be at all factual.

Some things that are considered "natural" still haven't been fully proven in terms of how they operate, so that could be seen as unfair.

Fact five: There is no concrete evidence or even an inkling of a suggestion of evidence that we live after we die.

Yes, that could be fair, depending on what type of living one is referring to.

Fact six: After-life thoughts are just thoughts.

Yes, that could be fair, but I could apply that to a lot of other thoughts as well.

I have known a few oldies nearing the end, & far from any yearning for “eternal life”, every one was whishing it would be over soon.

With the level of pain some of us on here appear to be living with, that may go for more than a few of us.

.

Dear NathanJ,

.

You ask :

« Is there life after death? »

From a purely biological point of view, yes there is. Birth is not the beginning of life and death is not its end.

Life is a self-sustaining process that began a long time ago. It shows no signs of ceasing despite all the wars and destruction and irreversible damage caused by mankind to the eco-system. Birth is not the beginning of life. It is its continuance. Living cells are constantly renewed, some more frequently than others. Life is relayed by the individual members of each species, in exclusivity, to the next generation of the same species.

On the other side of the coin, death is the permanent cessation of the vital functions of a living organism or cell, due to either natural or accidental causes. It affects each and every member of the species individually or, in some exceptional circumstances, collectively. When all the members of a species are affected by death, the species is said to be extinct.

Our problem, our unease, or “existential dilemma”, is the insupportable thought that nothing eternal exists. Many of us cling desperately to the belief that there must be an afterlife for each individual and that “by faith alone we will be saved”. Faith may or may not get us to “heaven”, but, at least, it alleviates our “existential dilemma”.

Irrespective of whether we suffer from “existential dilemma” or not, the fact remains that as we can see neither a beginning nor an end to the cosmos and everything it contains, I, personally, consider that the eternal does, indeed, exist - until proof to the contrary.

I am less affirmative about life. But there is no doubt in my mind that, even if life is not eternal, love is.

I consider that either love is or it is not, and if it is not, then it never was. In my mind, there is no such thing as temporary or partial love. Either it is total, eternal and indestructible or it is not, and never was.

.

(Continued ...)

.

.

(Continued ...)

.

The biological anthropologist, Helen Fisher, suggested that " Love may be understood as part of the survival instinct, a function to keep human beings together against menaces and to facilitate the continuation of the species".

I, personally, like the definition of that well-known Australian biologist, Jeremy Griffith: "unconditional selflessness" – to which I should add Aristotle's definition : "to will the good of another".

Thus defined, love is a purely altruistic phenomenon, aimed at resulting in a concrete benefit to another individual rather than oneself. Nevertheless, the loss of a “loved one” can have a profound effect on some individuals – to such an extent that they do not survive the loss.

That, too, is, undeniably, a manifestation of love.

.

//I find it hard to believe that of the 4 types of events I discribed regarding strange events around death, that you don't know at least one person who you regard as rational and trustworthy who has experienced one of those 4 types.//

Well of course I know rational and trustworthy people who've dreamt of their loved ones after they've died. I just don't see how that proves there's an afterlife.

//I assume there is a little bit of tunnel vision going on if you are unaware of these things as holding some weight in the real world, not just in someone's mind.//

So if I dream I'm a fifty-foot tall robotic penguin with lasers for eyes, is that all just in my mind or does it hold weight in the real world too?

I'm not sure that I buy into this idea that dreams are some sort of window into a part of objective reality otherwise obfuscated from us, although it's a common enough belief in a lot tribal/shamanistic belief systems. I think they're just dreams.

//But also you said "any objective reasurch?" So no. Just experiences I've heard from others.//

Oh great, anecdotal 'evidence'. Surely you know better than that?

//But with two qualifying aspects to consider. 1) Is this person I hear this story from a reliable person? Or in general would I trust what they say and their testimony on other things. And 2) Is there anything that that person would gain by lying about their story, or anything to discredit their view?//

So if they aren't lying about their dream, that makes the dream true? It doesn't work that way, NNS. If they aren't lying about their dream, it makes their account of their dream true. It doesn't somehow magically make the dream itself true.

//If the answer is no on both then that counts as evidance to consider.//

Evidence that people dream, hallucinate and otherwise imagine untrue things to be true? I think there's already enough evidence to support that particular hypothesis, but I suppose more can't hurt :)

Life after the body has ceased is represented as spiritual, the influence we have left with our peers and children. Jesus said that after he left this earth His spirit would indwell those that accepted his character, actions and wisdom; as he treated all as equal including woman and children, and cared for the sick, outcast and oppressed to heal and lift their spirit. The Kingdom of heaven is identified as all living in the spirit and character of Christ Jesus. Christians recognise Him as a true son of God. Those that recognise the character of Jesus Christ as God revealed in flesh and they repent of their failure and accept Christ as Lord in their life are also sons of God.

We are all following a character in actions and beliefs, but true Christians follow Christ Jesus in actions and beliefs. This then is passed on to the next generation not by genetics but by belief.

It is interesting reading people's posts on this
issue. For me the standout comments have come from
Banjo Patterson and his thoughts on love. Beautifully
expressed. The author Marianne Williamson had this to
say regarding prayer:

"No conventional therapy can release us from a deep and
abiding psychic pain. Through prayer we find what we cannot
find elsewhere - a peace that is not of this world."

How profound a realisation it is: the power of our own
perception to influence the nature of life experience.

"Is there life after death?"

There is for the insects and worms that eat the body, but otherwise No.

All I know is that when the late Kerry Packer died at his polo game, and was brought back to life, he said, and I quote from his book "i've been to the other side and believe me there's F-all there". So apart from that it's just like there are those who believe in god, and those who don't, and neither is right because it cant be proven.

If there was no life after death everyone gets the same punishment as Hitler. Somehow I think most know they will either be judged for their sins or receive mercy. I know what I prefer.

//If there was no life after death everyone gets the same punishment as Hitler.//

If there's no afterlife, Hitler doesn't get punished after death.

//Somehow I think most know they will either be judged for their sins or receive mercy.//

Ultimately nobody knows either way until they die, runner, but some people like to pretend they do as a way to scam money from gullible people like you.

' Ultimately nobody knows either way until they die, runner, but some people like to pretend they do as a way to scam money from gullible people like you.'

yep Toni either Jesus was a liar or He told the truth. Personally I know who I believe.

//yep Toni either Jesus was a liar or He told the truth//

I didn't know you'd met Jesus, runner. You aren't the Wandering Jew by any chance?

Dear NathanJ,

What a great topic given the technological progress that has been made in mapping neural networks.

A few years ago scientists took the quite basic neural structure of a round worm which from memory contained a few hundred synapses and mapped. They then replicated it and uploaded the coded structure into a lego robot.

“The open source project recently had its first major breakthrough when its software -- modeled on the neurons of the worm's nervous system -- independently controlled a Lego robot. The machine's sensors, without any prior programming, made the robot behave in a similar fashion to C. elegans, approaching and backing away from obstacles or stimulated by food.”
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/01/21/tech/mci-lego-worm/index.html

While granted the human brain contains millions of neurons rather than hundreds it is now a matter of scale. Just as genome sequencing started with the Epstein-Barr virus the Human Genome Project was completed about 15 years later.

What the future holds no one knows, but it is entirely within the realms of possibility that a person's brain might be able to be transposed onto a silicone chip complete with personality, memories, and intelligence. In fact it is in this form that people feel we will explore the universe. One not constrained to small acceleration speeds, nor bulky anti-radiation protection, nor needing to be provisioned.

Of course there will be philosophical discussions on whether this constitutes life, and whether a brain on a chip has rights, but it is exciting to think our intelligences will one day cease to require our biology.

there is genetic immortality,, the old cells producing young cells(children)to
survive and keep going when the parent cell dies.

It is called the cycle of life.

As for the afterlife, noone really know do they, although we all would like to think there is, and try to have faith that there is.

What about you Nathan J? Do you have any thoughts on life after death? Or hopes or fears regarding it?

We can witness here some destructive and negative persons by comments made here they will pass to the next generation. Avoid negative persons as they offer nothing to a healthy society of the future. There is the continuation of life, more than just organic; life that is represented by character.

I would like to think I would be reunited with past friends, family and pets. (Ones I liked and loved not the ones I would rather do without) I had a strange OUJI board experience that meant nothing to me at the time. The Men, mainly military pilots, gave it up but three gals took over, and asked what sex would my 7 month old pregnancy be. Well straight away it went to DO-DO we interpreted this as a DOE. How many children I would have a 2 and a 1. Well I had two sons already and one on the way. Well it wasn't a girl, but a boy, whom my 15 month old son looked tenderly at him and called him DO-DO, or he meant 'doll-doll' the nick name stuck, he was a great sportsman, but tragically died when he was 21. Was it a premonition as I didn't realize it until after his death. It was a shock as of all the boys he was naturally a survivor and winner.

My mother died of AML and two nights before she passed told me and my doctor, she had a dream of my Father and my other late son coming to get her, Dodo wasn't there nor was I. Look the brain has away of doing strange things, but doctors say, under anesthetic the brain can not dream. Others suggest the brain can release certain chemicals when in extreme stress that can account for the NDE. Well I think the person who has just died must have an effect on those mourning. After my mother died, twice I felt someone nudge me in the back. I thought I heard my two deceased sons talking to me almost immediately after I learned they died. One played chicken with a train and lost and said 'I almost made it Mum'. The other committed suicide and said to me 'They killed me mum' On his suicide notes, he blamed others for his mental and emotional/sexual identification state, We wait and hope death will be kind to us and our loved ones.

Did Jesus get die at the crucifixion?

Most people don't study so let's show you a few things regarding Jesus' so called crucifixion.

What was in the wine (vinegar)? Why would they call it vinegar and not wine?...Did he really drink it or not?

The verses contradict each other as to whether he drank and the substances in the vinegar....PLUS some show two attempts to give JESUS fluid and others only 1.

John 19:29-30 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put (it) upon hyssop, and put (it) to his mouth.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

OR the differing passage

Mark 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received (it) not.

Mark 15:23 mentions the oil Myrrh - http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?...20Molmol).

Mark 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put (it) on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

OR the next differing passage. Did he swallow or was just tasting enough to have the desired or intended effect?

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink.

Matthew 27:34 mentions gall (hemlock)http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7219.htm Gall means bitter but hemlock (a poison) can cause unconsciousness and death. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821362-overview

Matthew 27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

Then after he was taken down from the cross.

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

"...Nicodemus took Myrrh and Aloes" Myrrh has antiseptic qualities and alloes have healing properties (they are not embalmers) http://www.peacehealth.org/KBASE/cam/hn-2036003.htm

Why did Jesus die so quickly compared to others who were crucified?...Was he unconscious only?

Not Now Soon may have quoted me earlier but misrepresented things if it was me.

I had a near death experience (NDE) after a car crash. It's no biggy I wasn't upset that people wouldn't listen...most people don't know how to listen and interpret evidence anyway.

This happened in another experience!

I used to work with two older gentleman. One an Atheist, and one a Catholic, we used to debate the afterlife and religion all the time.

We couldn't agree on things so I suggested that we make a pact - "That when we die we attempt to make contact with the others to let them know."

I was 30 years younger than these guys and hadn't seen them for 20 odd years..

One night about 10 years back I drempt of one of the guys...The Catholic. In the dream he told me that he had passed away...so I logged onto the internet (The Herald Sun I think) and checked online obituaries. I had the dream on a Monday and he had died on the previous Thursday.

I was amazed!

About a month later I had a dream about the Atheist guy who told me he had died. Again I went online and he had passed away 4 days earlier. Once again I left some kind words about the man.

I did this in the middle of the night so regretfully I failed to keep a copy of the obituaries and my comments.

At the time, as I had studied the Bible and realised that it was a load of rubbish that totally denigrates God...I was well on my way to no longer wasting my time on such matters.

If it had been one occurrence I would have laughed it off... but two people SEEMING to contact me as per our agreement was much more interesting and worth investigating further.

I can't change that it happened and I have never drempt of them since. They just appear to have kept their part of the agreement.

This is simply the truth of what happened!

Op2, I have vivid dreams every night of past events including family and friends and even people whom I do not know. But I must investigate one dream of a woman of 20 years ago who worked in the same company whose funeral the family asked me to conduct. All this in a dream as I have no contact or thoughts of for 20 years, she was just a packer in the company of which I was a sales rep.

What is factual is the lives and spirit of great persons influenced by the life and spirit of Christ. Persons like Mother Teresa, Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela, Dr, Victor Chang. We would hope their spirit lives on in the next generation, displaying that same humility, and self sacrificing for the benefit of mankind. Today we live in a world of war and violence and ego-centric individuals, many following that war Lord Mohamed, they are worshipped as gods, they are the same as the world of the Roman gods, of war and power. A world into which Jesus came and his power was humility.

After my post yesterday regarding the two guys who seemed to have contacted me in dreams as we had agreed I decided to search for my posts to their obituaries but could only find one.

The second man, the Atheist, came through to me in my dream on the 11/10/2011 so it hasn't been 10 years. That means that the Catholic man would have died some time in September 2011.

Now Josephus you generalise too easily on the humility of Jesus.

Jesus, if any of the story is factual, afterall the Bible is a load of rubbish allegedly came with a message of love but as he couldn't sell love to the believers he ended up getting angry and threatening more and more.

In fact Jesus threatens hellfire and damnation around 24 times in the Gospels. I doubt threatening hellfire and damnation shows humility...lol

Now of course as hell doesn't exist it means the threats are just that, threats!

Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

So is Jesus saying God will cut people in two in this verse? In many versions Master represents God and servant should be slave. So Jesus thinks we are slaves... Again no humility here!

He repeats these type of threats in the parable of the Gold coins.

Luke 19:11-27 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+19%3A11-27&version=ESV

Now note the last verse....

Luke 11:27 But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and SLAUGHTER them before me.

Once again the Bible proves that people don't study correctly and that the Bible is a load of rubbish.

To think sweet baby Jesus wants to cut people in two and slaughter people before him.

But all you believers miss these verses and don't tell people about these verses if you know tham... and that makes you all deceivers!

you certainly spend a lot of time hating and misrepresenting the God you claim not ot believe in OP2.

Dear runner,

What's the excuse for your hatred?

Actually no Runner... I just quote what is in your Bible that you weren't studious enough to realise. I can't help that believers are ignorant...lol

Do not bear false witness Runner - You false accuser... Oh no you failed Jesus again...lmao

I quote the exact verses in the Bible that PROVES my point and that PROVES you believers are dishonest! Blame Jesus not me!...lmao

I'm telling you believers are suffering a mental illness. They read verses but aren't smart enough to comprehend.

Most have never even read their Bibles fully... So much for respecting God's supposed word as they claim...lol

It is you who believes God drowned every baby, child and babe in the womb in the flood that never happened... NOT ME!

It is you who claim GOD killed all the firstborn of Egypt in the Passover that never happened... NOT ME!

It is you who hates GOD so much as to believe these lies against God... NOT ME!

It is the likes of you who threaten hellfire and damnation on people when these things simply don't exist... NOT ME!

Your whole belief system is a huge lie and yet you don't even see it...lmao

It is you and other believers that by believing the Bible falsely accuse God of horrid unGodly deeds like this....NOT ME!

Numbers 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, TAKE ALL THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE, AND HANG THEM UP BEFORE THE LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

I'm telling you...Religion is a mental illness...

So did God really tell Moses to behead the leaders of the vanquished and hang their heads in the sun?... It's you choice.

Why do you hate God so much by believing these horrendous lies against God?

Keep up your delusional behaviour though... I love laughing at you and pitying you! lmao

Opinionated 2 - Well said. I agree with you. The ignorance of religion tries to make God into a man. Their tools of indoctrination use shame, guilt, fear and threat to manipulate others, and their favourite targets are the weak, the suffering and, of course, defenseless innocent children. The religious are too arrogant to realise that their belief system affects no-one but the individual who thinks it. The punishment and judgement they want for everyone else is a vicious delusion. Religion has a great deal to answer for.

As for whether there is life after death - yes, there is. The body dies, consciousness continues.

Well I have studied religion, and I do believe the Holy Bible St.James version, does explain some anomolies, e.g., Moses did not write the Hebrew Bible (old testament) Jesus was not born in Bethlehem, as he was known as the Nazereen, and that area of Israel was not under Roman Rule and no record of a census etc., and why would Joseph travel across desert terrain with a heavily pregnant woman to satisfy Mica's prediction. If Jesus lived he would be just one of quite a few who died claiming they were the messiah. Ask the Orthodox Jews.

Mica claimed a new king would be born in Bethlehem, like King David was, and he would be a warrior king who would save the Jews. Jesus was no warrior, he was against the Jewish ruling council as they worked with the Romans. He died, as a result but was a Jew. The Jews have suffered since, as they are labelled Christ killers.

Christians followed St.Paul. And without St.Paul Jesus' crusade would have never got off the ground. Since then, we have fundamentalist religions believing in Jesus, but that humans and the creation is less than 10,000.00 years old. We walked with dinosaurs (GET REAL!!) Extremist Islamist, Extremist Christians, Extremist Jews, Hindus and many older religions that do not fit today's social and cultural scene. Scientologists getting rich on donations and tax avoidance, Thetans and destructive engrams that hold people back from getting rich. In COMPARING their INFLUENCE, Jesus Christ is a saint.

'Dear runner,

What's the excuse for your hatred?'

are you talking of babies being carved up in wombs Foxy. I thought it would be obvious.

//I thought it would be obvious.//

It is obvious, runner. You're mentally ill but unwilling to seek help because you don't think you have a problem. A lot of mentally ill people don't, even when it is painfully obvious to everyone else around them.

Dear runner,

I am talking about your posts in general
and the fact that they do not reflect
someone who practices what Christ preached,
and yet who claims to be a follower of Christ.
So please explain why you don't practice what
you say you believe in?

R u guys still dummy spitting because Hilary lost. Wow.

Gee Runner you are getting really desperate now with that last comment...lol

The question is ...Can a person really believe they are a good person when they

1. Believe all the horrid lies against God in the Bible?

2. Believe in and hope for all people who aren't as thick as them, (believing in fairy tales that are so obviously untrue), are going to hell to rot in the firey sulphur lakes for eternity.

3. Believe in and actually psychotically celebrate the horrid lie of the Passover where you believe God killed all the innocent first born babies and children in Egypt.

4. Deceitfully try to convert innocent children and people in need to your fallen false delusional religion using baby Jesus stories and charities to trick them.

I say no and Runner is a great example of the outcome of such evil manipulation....lol

I mean look at what you believe...

God or Jesus if you believe in the Trinity... Created the Universe in one day but couldn't stop the lowly Satan since time began...lmao

Actually cast Satan down to Earth to ruin all our lives deliberately.

That God is the creator of evil and can turn on a good person like Job in an instance.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over ALL THE EVIL THAT THE LORD HAD BROUGHT UPON HIM: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Again I ask the believers on here... Why do you hate God so much believing these horrid lies against God in the Bible?

None of you will answer because you are too scared to face the truth... You are failures! lmao

the only truthful thing you point out op is that I am not good. My nature is just as corrupt yours and Foxy. Thank God that Christ was not corruptible otherwise He would of misreprented God like you do.

Nope Runner I am right most off the time..That is why you go back to fake religious babble all the time and never answer any questions.

You are too scared to think obviously...lol BOO!

Now I am pretty sure you believe in the Catholic invented unGodly Trinity going against Jesus' teachings so anything you say is corrupt anyway.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

But most if not all Christians fail Jesus continually in nearly every area of their lives. I mean they believe utter nonsense as fact...lmao

Your whole belief system defiles God continually. You defile God continually with your rubbish.

So when a Christian or someone from any Abrahamic religion discusses life after death they always get it totally wrong.

See how evil thrives when good men do nothing...

That is why I am showing people with a working brain the facts. I show them the verses from the Bible that make them all worse than all those they would criticise. Hence the forest they have in their own eyes.

You cant just say these infantile statements that trivialise Jesus and get away with it.

So I ask you again... Why did sweet Baby Jesus want to cut people in two and slaughter people before him?

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#254367

Was he showing compassion, humility, justice or anything else nice with these verses?

He got angry because the believers of his day wouldn't do the right things and love one another. Nope the same as you believers here do, you can't sell love so you sell hate and punishment to threaten.

Jesus failed at that also... So why do you ignore that fact?

Because you are just indoctrinated failures who have allowed religious propaganda and lies to deceive you. No need for a Satan you guys trick yourselves by refusing to think and study propeerly...lmao

Opinionated2, how is this helping? Your campaign against Christianity is in error and misinformed. But also here it is misplaced and a tangent to swallow the topic as a whole, as well.

Go back to what you had to offer before. The two friends that passed on and kept their promise to contact you all when they died. This is an experience that I see no challenges on. No one is saying your dreams are just dreams, or that you weren't contacted by those two people.

It's amazing to me that I could give 4 fairly common types experiences that relate to life existing after death, and get blasted for it. Hulicanations and mockery comparing dreams of your nature to dreaming of a pet dog that passed on. But when there is an actual example of one of those types of experiences what happens? You approached it and then quickly moved on to the favorite topic of your choice. Trying to dismantle Christianity, or to dismantle Christians themselves. But not a word on your dreams. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I looked up the conversation I was thinking about with NDE, and though it wasn't you it just adds one to the number of people who's had an experience (within this online community as well).

Paul and Tony, why the silence? Where's the potent jabs? Or does Opinionated2 serve a different purpose to ignore his testimony of life existing after death. That because he also stands against Christianity that you can ignore his experience challenging your stance on no life after death?

This isn't about Christianity or about religion, because as far as I'm aware Nathan who stated this conversation is not Christian, nor has a stated religion (that I've heard from him about). Those subjects relate to death and afterlife briefly. But no one has to be religious, or Christian to see what is plainly seen. Mankind has frequent brushes with life after death. Rare enough that not everyone has these experiences, but common enough that we all know someone who has. Of those experiences, I find it very arrogant for people to pass them off so casually. Take note of any experience. Not as a statistic (because you both seem keen to ignore the numbers), but as each individual case. There is overwhelming observations of life existing after death. The issue from there is that it can't be qualitative of what exists after death, only that something does.

//Paul and Tony//

Who's Tony?

//It's amazing to me that I could give 4 fairly common types experiences that relate to life existing after death//

No, you gave two fairly common types of experience (dreams and hallucinations) and one fairly uncommon one (NDE's), and completely failed to explain how they demonstrate life after death. I guess we're just meant to assume that part, are we?

//and get blasted for it.//

Nobody has 'blasted' you for anything. They've just asked you to back up your claims. If you can't tell the difference, it's time to switch off the computer and go play outside in the fresh air for a while.

//mockery comparing dreams of your nature to dreaming of a pet dog that passed on.//

Oh, I see. There's different types of dreams, are there? The dreams that are real and the ones that aren't. With the distinction to be made arbitrarily on the basis of whatever supports your preconceived notions.

Sounds like you're trying to have an each-way bet on this one. The way I see it, the only reasonable positions are that they're all real (for a given value of real) or that none of them are.

//Trying to dismantle Christianity, or to dismantle Christians themselves.//

What, taking them apart to see how they work, that sort of thing? The problem with that - as with so many other things in this world - is that when you take them apart to see how they work they generally stop working, thus defeating the whole purpose of the exercise. And of course, they're a right bugger to put back together when you're finished. There's always a few small screws left over.

http://welsh-nutter.co.uk/rune/screw.htm

//But not a word on your dreams.//

Well no, apparently my dreams don't count. Apparently, my dreams aren't good enough.

Do you reckon Freud would have ever gotten anywhere if he'd been so selective in his interpretation of dreams? 'Ah, vell, you see I vould like to help you but I am afraid you haff ze wrong sort of dreams. So sorry about zat. Next patient please!'

//Mankind has frequent brushes with life after death.//

That remains to be proven.

//Of those experiences, I find it very arrogant for people to pass them off so casually.//

Why? You do it.

//There is overwhelming observations of life existing after death.//

You've yet to demonstrate that.

Sorry, missed this bit.

//Take note of any experience. Not as a statistic (because you both seem keen to ignore the numbers), but as each individual case.//

What statistics? You haven't given us any statistics. Remember that it was me who had to direct you to some actual research with actual numbers? It's a bit rich for you to be lecturing anybody on the importance of statistical evidence when you're so very, very fond of anecdotal evidence, NNS.

NNS... Still waiting for Jesus' return are we...Will soon ever arrive for you?...lmao I'm not misguided or misinformed about Chjristianity at all. You are! It's a fraud!

It was Runner who introduced the Jesus clap trap to this thread, and I have to correct you misguided Christians who believe fairytales to free others from the fraud.

The Abrahamic religions ruin the "is there an afterlife topic" and I refuse to let them get away with it.

Years ago my sister went to a psychic lady in Melbourne who allowed her to tape the whole thing. The lady only had my sisters first name as a friend booked the reading and my sister tagged along.

This lady knowing absolutely nothing about my family announced my father was coming through to her. At that point she suddenly started using mannerisms that my father had. My sister a sceptic was stunned!

During the 45 minute reading this lady named 12 names who were on the other side with my father and mentioned many people using their mannerisms. One she mentioned was a very overweight man, with a big round face like Bert Newton, bald and holding a beer in front of him shaking his head. This is a brilliant description of a lovely ex alcoholic man who lived across the street.

So my sister and I analyzed everything in minute detail. The names mentioned were all deceased relatives and many were both name and nick name. AMAZING!

There was one name Michael that neither of us recognised. There was no Michael in our family. One day whilst chatting to another sister she mentioned Michael and my sister was shocked. She had a still born baby which she named Michael before his cremation.

So with my previous experience and this I have to conclude that there is strong evidence for our conscience or spirit continuing after dying. In the hands of a skilled psychic these things can be shown.

Continuing on with the weird experiences I have had...

One day whilst chatting to two friends, one in the USA and one Aussie, this happened to me.

The USA lady was a bit down and I sensed that in her. It was the day her father had died when she was three and on that day she had always sensed his presence each year.

Suddenly knowing none of the facts of his death I had this sharp pain all the way down my left side and the feeling of three of my fingers being cut off. My Aussie friend joked - OMG OP2 is having a heart attack...lol The pain was very intense.

The USA lady went very quiet at this stage as I described all I was feeling. The pain was intense but I knew somehow it wasn't a heart attack. It lasted for about 5-10 minutes.

After I described everything to her she told me the story of her fathers death.

He had been driving home from work and his car had jack knifed going through a fence and into the side of a train. Only one side of his body was mangled and he had 3 fingers of his left hand cut off in the accident.

It was a most amazing experience and it brought the woman great relief knowing that what she had felt on this day every year since she was 3 was her father.

I'm not a psychic but I am a complete skeptic and I had never experienced anything like this.

Now of course lunatic Christians always jump to demonic rubbish because of their belief in fairytales...Demons don't exist! There was absolutely nothing negative that came from the experience just a lot of relief for the lady who had lost her Dad at the age of 3.

From my part it was just another weird experience that I have to accept was way too accurate for me to laugh off as silly.

So with these experiences I always keep an open mind!

Opine2. I have heard things like this too. Many things that can't be easily explained. Maybe we have a sixth sense or cognition, memories that are in the subconscious, that come out during times of stress.

If one is dying then what can the body or brain do to ease suffering. I have had a out of body experience, but it was during a medical procedure or child birth. I can't remember, maybe I was in pain or part of me was coming out of anesthetic. NDE are a kind of easing from life to death, but not everybody experiences it. The one I did know about she was under anesthetic and experienced the tunnel light and floating towards it with animals too. She was an animal lover.

But religion, it is a form of moral control and people control particularly women. Paternalistic and God Forbid, hypocritical. I am a deist. I do believe there is something in the universe that is good and logical and loving. But one has to accept the opposite sometimes controls others. And as Richard Dawkins said, there are good people and evil people in this world, but religion makes good people become evil But not a white bearded father sitting on a cloud watching, controlling our fates and destinies. We do that, or our culture does. The Rich control us, prevent sometimes true talent from advancing, or the truth being buried. All we can do is try and enjoy ourselves and children or grand children, because they are our immortality.

OP2 is reposting what he has already espoused in a previous rant against Christians and the Bible. He cannot discuss honourably about the subject. The ancient Egyptians believed rulers inherited an afterlife among the gods. The Pharisees 300 BC believed in a resurrection back into life on the Earth.

The truth is honourable Josephus... try it some day...lol :)

Didn't you make this false claim?

Josephus stated..."I am a theology graduate, and have read every verse in the various translations of the Bible over 40 times in my 77 years"....Obviously a laughable claim!

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8045#249080

I called you out on that lie on that thread and you went to water!

Imagine being a Math scholar and working on 1+1=? for all your life and still thinking the answer is 3...lmao This is Josephus' life in a simple equation...lmao

I quote exact chapter and verse every time Josephus to PROVE what I say is absolutely accurate...You believe baby Jesus stories...lmao

Heaps of peoples have believed in an afterlife Josephus and I am not questioning that...I am saying you Christians are deceivers and ruin the discussion.

Bush Bunny you may well be correct. I can't undo my experiences so I keep an open mind about such things as what happens after we die.

The whole of religion is a money making scam.

Jesus left one religion and look what believers have done to it...

It has been stated that there are around 37 million churches in the world with 34,000 (Christian) denominations.

Pharisaical divide and conquer in action!

So anything they say about the afterlife is tainted by their indoctrination and the anti-God lies they believe...It's a sham and a scam...lol :)

What did Jesus say to the rich man...

Luke 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

The Churches don't follow this teaching they do the opposite! The believers don't do this they do the opposite!

But they all claim to follow Jesus...lmao

Continuing on this topic... Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

How many buildings did Jesus build during his time on Earth? NONE!

And how many Churches have the followers built? Around 37 million? Imagine how many poor people would have been fed if they had only believed enough in Jesus' teachings and followed them? But alas they didn't!

So how much is the Catholic Church worth in Australia alone? This report says $30 billion

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246

And this older article

http://www.jmm.org.au/articles/16261.htm

You will also notice when I show what the Bible actually states the believers clam up continually, failing to turn the other cheek, and attack me...the messenger...lmao

The Bible was written by psychopaths and manic depressives who thought their mental illnesses were gifts from God...lmao

Moses killed anyone who could prove he was a fraud and then made everything up. The Israelites were a very small band of people and so he invented the biggest meanest God possible to keep his people safe.

The lies are obvious...especially when you actually study properly.

Moses made up anti-God rubbish and the dimwits believed him. They still believe-

The Israelite God created the Universe in the first 3 days. He's good...lol He can't stop the Devil...his creation...in all of time though...OOPS not so good...lmao

God drowned EVERY INNOCENT baby, child, unborn and person on the planet because of a mistake he made according to believers but He can't stop the Devil...lol The flood is a lie!

God killed every innocent firstborn baby and child in the Passover that never happened...The Passover is a lie and anti-GOD!

Josephus complains about my rants and yet he goes to church regularly and swallows all the crap hook line and sinker...lmao

Here are my first posts on some threads that I went into heaps of detail regarding the lies in the Bible and the fraud that continues to this day...Enjoy!

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9093#145008

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=9093#145008

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2572#57674

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=8580#136293

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1374#24934

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1149&page=0

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8143#253074

Op2, we all recognise you wish to spew your uninformed opinion all aver subjects the might involve religion. Try the same with the Koran and Hadiths as you might need it in the near future. At least you can post nonsense here now but when Islam holds power you will be considered spewing Hate speech. It might be worth your while attending several Churches to evaluate just what Christians actually do believe.

Opine2 You won't change Josephus' religious dogma. Just look at the name he's chosen. Josephus was a Jew, and was captured by the Romans and started to write the history of the Jewish nation. He was in a suicide pact and only two remained, him and another. What happened to the another. He was a traitor to his cause, but it started the end of Jewish rule over the temple and Jerusalem. Why the Jews took on the Romans no one really sees the logic. Was not because of Jesus' death, but a vain and silly contest of wills and religious fervor that destroyed their temple, that was not only burned down but looted. The loot paid for the Roman Colosseum.

The trouble with Bible literary believers, is they are people who make excuses for themselves in the name of God. Those that do not adhere to their beliefs obviously are unholy and infidels. His mention of the Koran is of course Islamic phobia. There is nothing wrong with most religions, unless they want to impose their beliefs on others. And quite honestly they must be dull, insecure people who are lost, I've never met any whom I believe is open minded and nice to know. I've met some good clerics, and some awful ones, mainly former Catholic priests, like John Farrel or Father 'F'. Anyway, about life after death, most believe or hope there is another existence, and there's nothing wrong with that. It is the creationists and fundamentalists or alternative religions like Scientology that I dislike. Fancy teaching one's child we walked with dinosaurs, and we did not evolve from primates and are the alpha primate. That we are related DNA wise, to the chimps (98.00% possibly higher) but also 40 other life forms including whales, pigs, even some algae. That all living beings have a connection that took billions of earth years to evolve. That is the miracle, our Earth planet is a beautiful place. Life has been destroyed several times. But it prevailed.

Continued.

Josephus, as an evolutionist, you have to remember, that the holy Bible, is made up of part of the Hebrew Bible, and books written after Jesus' crucifixion?

Look at Genesis the creation. Actually from a scientists point of view, The description of the six day of creation, is almost spot on with the processes of evolution as we know it. Problem, add a few billion years on God's day. How does anyone believe this, fazes me. How long is a day in God time. Come on not 24 hours. Even the most fervent Christians don't believe it was 6 earth days, and we didn't walk with dinosaurs. They are deriding the wonderful natural processes of evolution of living things. Obviously humans have been preying on other humans for millennium, but we are higher primates, and even other higher primates prey on one another too. Anyway, work it out. Without plants and later trees we wouldn't have oxygen. And that we are nitrogen junkies, having 78% of our air is nitrogen, 20% is oxygen, and the rest is CO2 and trace gases. But trees and plants need nitrogen, strange isn't it. So who knows maybe when we die we exchange one set of star stuff to another as we decompose or are burned. That as a lasting memory of life, our brains somehow give us images we want to see and we die peacefully. God bless you all

Josephus...I'm Uninformed?

I quote the Bible's exact verses to prove I am informed, I give links to the information to prove I am informed. You rely on your indoctrinated brainwashed thinking that has held you back in anti-God land all your life.

I should be a breath of fresh air because I tell the truth and prove the truth with the exact verses that prove you wrong.

You said "I am a theology graduate, and have read EVERY VERSE IN THE VARIOUS TRANSLATIONS OF THE BIBLE OVER 40 TIMES in my 77 years, and most of the Hebrew and Greek text so I have nothing for which to apologise.

How many translations of the Bible are there? And how many verses over 40 times?...lmao

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations/wiki/List_of_English_Bible_translations

So I gather you are now falsely giving Christianity and Christians like yourself the credit for free speech? lol

So seeing you can't win this debate, you move onto the Muslim problems as a diversion. Shariah is just a Mosaic Law with in some areas being more formalised.

In some juristictions Sharia have formalied the cutting off of hands as a punishment.

Where did that come from?...Jesus said

Matthew 5:29 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

It is one of Jesus' most absurd teachings but your Bible says he said it...lmao

SO in the minds of the deluded the law is saving you from hell...lmao

BY arguing what you just argued Josephus you have proved my point. You don't want to hear the truth, you don't want to see the truth in writing, you just want to believe baby Jesus stories. Grow UP!

Look at your own religion's teachings and their histories before you start throwing stones...Correct you first!

//That we are related DNA wise, to the chimps (98.00% possibly higher) but also 40 other life forms including whales, pigs, even some algae.//

40? No, we're related to all of them. Some more closely than others.

//Actually from a scientists point of view, The description of the six day of creation, is almost spot on with the processes of evolution as we know it.//

Umm... no. If you check your Bible, you'll see that God created night, day, the Earth and plants before he created the Sun. That goes against our current understanding of the formation of the solar system. It also goes against our understanding of how plants work. And as for the whole night/day thing without a Sun... WTF?

To Opinionated2.

Jesus is worth the wait. My name is more by accident to reflect my hopes on waiting for Jesus though. I'm a procrastinator. And by accident this name also reflects much about my faith as well. Imagine that. :)

Your discriptions of your experiences is filling in hole of a question I didn't understand about you. Everything you write seems to come from a perspective of an atheist, except that you fircely stand by your claim that God exists. Is this connected to the various experiences you've had with death to be a cue that there's more? That God exists? I still don't get where your coming from for a lot of what you say, and I don't think this is the topic to sort it all out. But I will agree with you on one thing. The strange parts of our lives are what keep our minds open. They also though she'd some information too, to challenge us or our perspectives of how the world works, and to refute us to say when we are wrong.

Our different perspectives about the bible and about God aside, thanks for sharing the experiences regarding the psysic , and the friends who had died. I've heard of a few others who I trust that shared simular stories. I don't doubt them nor do I have an explaination for them.

My experiences are amazing but not proof of anything - I'm glad I had them and the Atheist man apparently lived on in the next life...

NNS...How can the facts of what the Bible actually states absolutely clearly be the position of an Atheist. If that isn't proof that you simply aren't correct nothing is.

I quote exact Chapter and verse and show the actual verses and you still can't comprehend the facts...You are blinded by religion even in plain site!

I never said I believe in God...I said I wasn't an Atheist!

Belief is a term for the undereducated and the flawed thinker amongst us.

I want evidence!

Thomas is my hero...

Jesus said Matthew 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I AM CHRIST; and shall deceive many.

Even though Jesus was supposedly standing in front of him he followed Jesus' precise instruction in Matthew 24:5 and wanted more evidence.

Of course then Jesus stuffs the story by saying

John 20:29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

And the trap is set and you all fall for it.

Jesus failed every believer by opening the door for belief without knowing, belief through trickery, belief through selective bible verse choice, belief driven by liars, belief in fairytales, belief by money grabbing religions and belief in the absurd... and the feeble of mind followers flocked to the religions and the absurd...lmao

I mean you guys still believe in a talking snake...lmao

You believe that God created the Universe in 3 days but can't stop the devil in all of time...lmao

Now I want you to listen carefully and remember you heard it here first...Jesus isn't coming! Remember it on your death bed that OP2 was correct and you were wrong!

Every generation from when Jesus was allegedly killed by believers have been wrong.

Jesus said Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, till all these things be fulfilled.

Well I'm sorry but that generation has passed!

To Opinionated2.

[My experiences are amazing but not proof of anything - I'm glad I had them and the Atheist man apparently lived on in the next life...]

Amazing might be a bit of a head trip there. How about unique. Either way you say they are not proof of anything. How are they not proof? A man says that there is no afterlife, that such concepts are the things of weak minds or of those in a religion. You're experiences prove these aren't just concepts, but there is more to us even after we die. ... However whether your friend the atheist was still an atheist when he died is not known unless you read that in his obituary. 20 years is a long time for either of the two to either gain faith or lose it. ... Either way what they do or where they go is not the point. It's that they still can do anything or go anywhere as opposed to ceasing to exist.

Don't take that lightly. Either the experience had merit and the friends who died and the physic's experience were real. Or you have experienced a moment of craziness and they never actually happened. There is no in between. If it is real that means people don't die when their body does. That's proof enough, unless you mean to say none of it was actually real?

(Continued)

[NNS...How can the facts of what the Bible actually states absolutely clearly be the position of an Atheist. If that isn't proof that you simply aren't correct nothing is.]

You aren't correct though. But from the last conversation about the bible I had with you you would rather talk nonstop then to stop and listen to what could be said about any of it. Should I apologize that I don't want this conversation to be swallowed up in the same fashion? There is philosophy, theology, theory, and guesses, and then there is experience that trumps all of that. Why get lost in trying to convince each other our theory of life and theory of the world is right when instead we have a good seat to set straight some misunderstandings through the experiences people have had? A sure misunderstanding that there is nothing that exists of us after we die. Or again I suppose you could say you have no proof and your experiences are episodes of being crazy. Though I hope that is not what you would say.

[I never said I believe in God...I said I wasn't an Atheist!]

Not quite. You said that what was about God was a lie about God. And you avoided explaining yourself when questioned about it. But still you claimed to not be an atheist. Now saying you never said you believed in God shows a truer color. One that fits better your arguments then "the bible lies about God."

Either way let it go. Your now showing some truer colors. But that is still less important to this conversation, then answers to Nathan's question if there is life after death.

So let's analyse this a bit further...If the Jesus story is true, why would he bother coming back to you lot?

Believers wrongly believe that his father God condoned of and sometimes committed infanticide, rape, murder, animal and human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, torture, incest, Mosaic Law - (Sharia Law), stoning, slavery , oppression of women and other atrocities.

Believers have promoted Jesus to God, and disguarded the real God in doing so, through the false Trinity doctrine, defying Jesus as usual!

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD.

Believers and religions have divided Jesus religion into 44,000 sects and denominations when he left one.

Believers and religions have made billions of dollars at the expense of the poor, the sick, the starving and the ill....

Oh yes some have created hospitals, schools etc. but they are just indoctrination centres and profit centres used against children and the needy religions benefit....all against Jesus' teachings!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-12/catholic-church-worth-$30-billion-investigation-finds/9422246

Now let's see if you can put yourself in Jesus' position regarding humans...Would you return? The answer has to be NO!

Now most of the soon rubbish comes fro Revelations - The ravings of methane affected John of Patmos from his volcanic island and you guys believe it...lol

Hey man Jesus said Revelation 3:11 I am coming SOON Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

This methane I'm breathing never lies...lmao What crown?...lmao

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH, till they SEE the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Everyone standing there is dead!

Jesus isn't coming back to you rabble...He has seen you all lie and misappropriate and divide his religion for money and personal gain!

You are all a part of the beast system and you are too simple to see it!

I've recently re-read what Rabbi Marianne Williamson
had to say on the subject of intolerance - which I
think may be of interest to some people because it
is relevant to how we behave in this life - it may have
an affect on us in the next (or not). Anyway here goes:

The only thing we can be one hundred percent responsible
for is our own minds. Today, there is a widespread,
malignant thought form that "other people are the problem."
Conservatives tend to blame Progressives for our problems.
While Progressives blame Conservatives. The media blames
almost everyone, and almost everyone blames immigrants.

Some people are convinced homosexuals are the problem, while
others think that single mothers are the problem. Still
others think the Christian Right is the problem. The entire
culture has become a hysterical blame session.

Yet a healthy, vital society is not one in which we all
agree.

Our conversation must shift away from the mass infantile
finger-pointing that now pervades it. We must get away from
the tendency to think that our way is the right way and that
people who disagree with us are bad.

Within each of us lies the disease, and within each of us
lies the divine physician. It is therefore important that
we renew dignified and respectful dialogue with those
who do not agree with us than that we keep slavishly
congratulating those who have the wisdom to see things
our way.

Is there life after death? Many believe that there is.
But that's allright. It's also allright not to believe
that there is. However, we must not stoop to disrespect
opinions or beliefs - because many of the things that
most of us were brought up to think "could never happen
here," have already begun to happen: dangerous
scapegoating, violent hate crimes, small-minded
intolerance for the views of others. And at what point do
we wake up enough to know that without treatment this
"illness" will destroy us?

NNS...So you want me, without evidence from everyone in the world to claim my experience is unique? That would be a head trip...I am saying the word people have used when I have told them the stories is Amazing...

See there you go changing the words chosen by the writer to suit yourself...lmao...No wonder you can't get the Bible right...lmao

I don't take anything lightly but your definition of proof is less scientific and robust than mine...obviously.

The evidence has to be repeatable so find others who have had exactly the same thing happen.

You are assuming that I believe in God, by the way I communicate with believers...I have to keep it simple stupid because they have failed everything so far...

Only in your eyes does "Ï believe in God" work because you are one who believes the lies against God so easily...

Sorry but your whole belief system and rationality is anti-God when you believe the Bible over common sense and logic.

The Bible is my proof of the lies!

The Bible was written by Psychopaths and manic depressives who claim their mental illnesses were God speaking to them. Even Jesus called sicknesses demons, the devil or evil spirits...lol

AS to an afterlife, I stay unconvinced even with my experiences because I do not want to misrepresent the facts so that the religious run off with my story and claim it is a sign of God.

Great news Foxy - but when religions stop teaching "rotting in the sulphur lakes of hell" I will be more passive in my arguments."

I am debating all manner of indoctrination and flawed beliefs and so my methodology is more robust than others. I don't like doing it but these dills believe utter rubbish and continue to spread it diminishing their own God in the process.

They think all non-believers will rot in hell...I prove them wrong!

I'm sure you realise that the Abrahamic religions make up a huge portion of the world's population, so I really am correcting a huge group of indoctrinated people from thousands of years of unintelligent belief.

Op2, When Jesus told stories, parables, he used familiar culture to his hearers. Death as punishment and slavery was familiar in their culture. He announced a new agreement to his followers, the OT was now superseded. Love, pray and feed your enemies, forgive those that have wronged you, be gracious to all persons. Obviously you are cherry picking verses out of a diverse context and culture. Bush bunny, I am not a 6 day creationist, that text is based on an ancient Mesopotamian world view. It was only about 6,000 - 10,000 years ago that creative wisdom came to the human genome. As the ancient text says man became creative and moral in the image of the Divine.

Josephus you are so backward in your logic...

Jesus did talk similarly to the people BUT you say he is God or at least the Son of God...Therefore he must know about bacteria and viruses and other illnesses that affect humans.

So now your argument is Jesus would rather keep people thinking wrongly rather than educate them about the truth...Any verses where he went to a Dr and taught him about those things? NO!

He used the terms evil spirits, demons and the devil...

Your whole religious experience in Church is cherry picking verses... Now you can add hypocrisy to your list of failings...lmao I quote the verses that prove me correct and you wrong...and usually what Jesus said directly. Sorry for showing you actual verses...lmao

I note you never counteract a verse with a verse because you know I using the Bible will prove you wrong. You should be used to being wrong.

So let's see the level of your faith...in an experiment to glorify God.

CURE ALL THE DISABLED PEOPLE IN THE WORLD WITH THE POWER OF YOUR BELIEF AND PRAYERS!

Afterall JESUS said and JESUS was very, very specific here...

John 14:12-14 Very truly I tell you, WHOEVER BELIEVES IN ME will do the works I have been doing, and THEY (You guys) WILL DO EVEN GREATER THINGS THAN THESE, because I am going to the Father.

And WHATSOEVER YE (You believers) SHALL ASK IN MY NAME, THAT I WILL DO, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

If ye (You believers) shall ask ANY THING IN MY NAME, I WILL DO IT.

Sorry if I chose precise verses from the Bible now that is offending you...

Good luck I look forward to your success and extreme faith in Jesus OR you are a windbag if you don't!

Happy healings! You can now do greater things than Jesus so no excuses...lmao

Josephus you said It was only about 6,000 - 10,000 years ago that creative wisdom came to the human genome. As the ancient text says man became creative and moral in the image of the Divine.

So seeing this gobbledy goog says "man became moral in the image of the divine" why did we need a Royal Commission into Child Abuse?

What are you saying with these words in your brainwashed way?

Do you think child abuse is "moral in the image of the divine"? Men did it!

How can the divine ever be present in the evil organisations that covered up child abuse and failed to report the crimes to the police?

Are you saying God sat idly by ignoring the crimes but still remains in these anti-God institutions?

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Well they sure suffered when they went to the people who claim to represent him on Earth. Please don't imbecilially explain that wasn't what he meant by "suffer"..I have taken poetic license with the word suffer to make my point.

Your arguments are ridiculous...

You people have learnt nothing and are delusional if you think you are moral...Religions are an insult to the divine!

You sure are misguided!

Your last Pope...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/13/pope-crimes-humanity-victims-abuse

AND the protection he has

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-resignation-immunity/pope-will-have-security-immunity-by-remaining-in-the-vatican-idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215

So why won't he face the charges? Doesn't the divine demand justice?

If any organisation has covered up crimes against children there is no morality in that organisation and they are an insult to God!

What say ye Josephus is it MORAL IN THE IMAGE OF THE DIVINE to protect the ex-Pope from prosecution and does the divine reside in organisations that cover up crimes against children?

Be brave...Answer the questions...lmao

Please note Josephus and NNS. What 10,000 year Mesopotamian text?! It is the first book of the Christian Old Testament. Gilgamesh legend and the flood, are in ancient Mesopotamian texts. First the was light, (the sun) etc., but I was brought up a RC and then our church did not adhere to the old testament because it was originally Jewish. Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew. He wasn't baptized a Christian, merging under water is supposed to cleanse one of all sins, is an ancient Jewish ritual. Most old religions have myths attached. But the old testament is the bloodiest thing if you read it. Lot offering his daughters to the pursuers of the angels. The only bit that can be based on some historic truth, is Joseph and the Israelites being in bondage. Archaeological evidence is that the Israelites were held in bondage in Northern Egypt.And Moses well is a shortening of Thutmoses, an Egyptian nobles name. Ramses the Great built a city and it is thought it was built by foreign labour, and there was a seven year drought all over the eastern Mediterranean, including Egypt. Some Jews do not believe Moses wrote the 5 books of the Hebrew Bible. If he lived at all, it was about 1200-1300 BC. His followers lay siege to Jericho, and slaughtered all the Canaanites, nice person. I don't think you have read the bible the St.James Bible. Jewish scholars say the Christians believe that Jesus will be coming back, punish all the unbelievers, is to legitimize their view that Jesus was the messiah. And they make up these fables, because if he was he did not finish his work as a saviour when he was alive. In fact thirty years later the Romans killed lots of Jews, ransacked the second temple, and took thousands into slavery, some messiah.

Continued. Opine2 there are some great DVD's out by Richard Dawkins. In 'The Root of All Evil' takes on the American fundamentalists churches. But the best one to me is 'Religious' an American comedian can't remember his name. His mother was Jewish and Father Roman Catholic. It is hilarious how so many Americans fall for the six day creation, making millions out of theme parks, now one is building an ark. Even a Senator questioned, who admitted he believed in it, and when questioned the Senator, replied, 'Well Senators don't have to be intelligent'. Religions evolve over time, they are favored by governments as they keep people distracted from what is really going on around them. I have for over 60 years thought about religion and spirituality.

Some good stories though. Around 6000 BPE the black sea burst into the Dardanelles,and opened to the Mediterranean and similar towns in mythology suffered the same fate. The first Temple was destroyed by the Persians, and Hebrews taken into captivity for a few generations before they returned to Jerusalem. Jews as we know them now only evolved their religious beliefs around 1200 years ago,probably influenced by the Zoroastrians, the first Monotheist religion. they were Persian but fled to India, where they are now the Parsees. Mosaic laws there is over 600 of them. Not just 10. The problem today is people are better educated, and the extremists who tell children lies or always brandish 'You are going to Hell' etc., they are child abusers in my mind.

Anyway, Easter is coming up, and it is an old pagan tradition first, as I don't know how the Easter bunny and eggs are related to Jesus' resurrection. But we buy them, yet somehow the Southern Hemisphere Easter isn't as meaningful as the Northern Hemisphere as we are entering Autumn.

Just recall Hitler believed that Christianity was an offshoot of Judaism. And in the early days, Christian Jews were disliked by the Jews and Romans

Well Sorry NathanJ. I tried. To the rest of you. You can fight over your philosophies and who is the one who is misinformed or misunderstood. (I'm sure each day f you can be clever and make it sting).

You are correct you did get the thread on track a bit but because of your crazy religion we others have to keep debating.

I have put out more of my experiences than anyone I see here but also I have destroyed all the believers along the way.

It's a tough gig but someone has to tell the truth about your anti-God religion.

Perhaps you should change your name to Not Now Never or are you saying Jesus lied when he said this...

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, THERE BE SOME STANDING HERE, WHICH SHALL NOT TASTE DEATH, till they SEE the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Bush Bunny I think you meant Religulous by Bill Maher...He is half Jewish and really gets stuck into the crazy garbage peddled by the nutters.

I agree that scaring children with hellfire and damnation stories is child abuse, as is indoctrination and lying to them with trick baby Jesus stories. You can prove all that abuse works by watching the indoctrinated ones like Runner (lol),NNNever and Josephus continually shoot themselves in the foot...lmao

Apparently their God never helps them with the truth or comprehension...lol

You are correct the OT is full of horror stories but Jesus says some pretty harsh things also..I have mentioned them earlier...

I gave a couple of links before on the last Pope but I left them as https instead of removing the s when posting. Now the links below will work.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/sep/13/pope-crimes-humanity-victims-abuse

AND the protection he has

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-pope-resignation-immunity/pope-will-have-security-immunity-by-remaining-in-the-vatican-idUSBRE91E0ZI20130215

Unbelievable...

Opinionated2

Because of "my crazy religion" You can't talk about anything else? Other subjects don't matter because my "crazy religion forced you to. Huh, a bit ago you also said that even in spit of your experiences you can't accept that there is life after death. Why? Because of how religous people would take it. That sounds like another copout to me. Can't face the truth you see because it's inconviences your position against Christianity.

To put it plainly if you can not stand by the truth because it makes your positions look bad, that's a giant error on your side. If you blame others because of your actions, (such as can't successfully talk about other subjects if there is a Christian present) that is also an error on you not on me. As a habit don't blame others for your behavior.

Not Now Never...It's not a cop out...It simply is because you believers are so corrupt that you will misrepresent anything for your own purposes. You are doing it here!

I had the experiences and I am unconvinced...Sorry my rigor in investigating the truth goes deeper than baby Jesus stories and talking snakes....lmao

If I had met Jesus in my NDE I would have told you... I DIDN'T!

If I had met GOD in my NDE I would have told you!...I DIDN'T!

If I had met the devil in my NDE I would have told you...I DIDN'T!

If my father, in my sister's psychic reading had been with Jesus or God, they would have mentioned it...They didn't!

You are dishonestly misconstruing the word truth to make it mean proof. I told the truth I did not prove your infantile religious beliefs.

So there you go proving my point! You believers simply can't be trusted on anything!

There were no gold lined streets, There was no Jesus or his 144,000 gay undefiled males running around behind him like Methane John of Patmos suggested.

What sort of moron believes that the act of sex that your God supposedly engineered allowing a pile of clay to mate with a rib is a defiling of men?

Oh that's right Methane John and you infantile believers!

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revelations 14:4 These are they which WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

I hope you have never been defiled by women and have held yourself intact for gay time in heaven...lmao

Your religion is full of disgusting anti-women absurdities!

Bush Baby - yes the "Religulous" film by Mayer was hilarious and should be compulsory viewing for the religulous on their way to the hell they have invented for themselves.

OP2 - absolutely love what you are posting. So true.

Sorry - Bush Bunny, not Baby.

Here Now, bush baby, they are cute. Bush bunnies live in the Australian bush. LOL

Religious zealots are going no where. I can't stand fundamentalist religions, and false messiahs making themselves rich on other peoples gullibility. And people's need to believe in the improbable and false histories. However, to some their 'faith' is a prop, empowerment to believe that they are being looked after by the divine. I see no problem with that, so long as they don't think my 'faith' is not evil, and question it 'you don't believe in God as they present it, you must believe in the devil'. To me that is medieval mentality, sparking the crusades, and inquisitions.
Anyway had a tooth out today, and it hurts now the numbing is wearing
off. Nite everyone.

Bush-bunny, The New KJ Bible based on original language never uses a word based on the Roman Catholic view of Hell. It talks about Sheol meaning the grave and Gehenna meaning the garbage heap or waste disposal. Lives lived in selfishness and immorality are wasted.

Josephus, I couldn't care a hoot. The 'new' King James bible? In the old testament, there is a hell of a lot of gruesome fates, Lot's wife, he slept with his daughters. Jezabel, in fact it is so against women, it is a paternalistic woman hating scroll. You have Sampson and Delilah, and Abraham casting out Ishmael when Ruth bore Issac. And going to sacrifice his son. The devil tempting Jesus. Moses throwing down the 10 commandments, no there were 600 for Orthodox Jews. It is a dire warning to his followers, never trust a woman, and woe betide thee if you transgress from the path to heaven. Oh Solomon and Bathsheba, another example. Or was it David and Bathsheba. Adulteress, what about him, he deliberately sent his loyal soldier to be killed. What that teaches youngsters I don't know, other than terrify them in transgressing from what their elders want them to do. No wonder Catholic priests, use children they don't see it as a sin, only sleeping with a woman is. You realize why the Muslims don't like the Jews and the Christians as to them Abraham had Ishmael not Issac.

Opinionated2. You said:

[It is simply is because you believers are so corrupt that you will misrepresent anything for your own purposes. You are doing it here]

What are you complaining about? Speak clearly and with examples because I have not misrepresented anything you've said or said anything in a corrupt manner. You did give your experiences that should lead you to the conclusion that there is an afterlife. Not to any conclusions of what that afterlife is like, (unless that was part of your dreams too), but to there at least being an afterlife. It would be like a man catching his wife in the act of cheating on him and walking away saying even though he say it, he doesn't believe she did it. That is what your testimony sounds like. You've been given a witness from two people keeping their promises to notify you, after they passed on, yet you say is you don't believe in an after life because of how Christians would take it.

Are those not your words? Are you not showing that your preference of that you want to believe is worth more then the conclusions based on your unique experiences. That shows a drastic error to not want the truth but to shy away from truthful conclusions because of Christians.

Again are these not your words. Are they misrepresenting anything? If so show me where and how. Otherwise stop complaining that there is a truthful critism to your stances against Christianity.

OMG! NotNowNever do I really have to explain this to you again?

What is the size of your sample to rename my experience from "amazing" which I, the writer called it, to "unique"?

There are about 7.6 billion people currently on the planet. What percentage did you survey that gave you the arrogance to change my terminology about my experience to "unique"?

Are your English language skills and accuracy levels this poor in everything you discuss?

Do you know what unique means?

Again you are inaccurate...as usual. I didn't say "I didn't believe that there was something after this life". What you religious refer to the afterlife.

I said I am unconvinced!

Do you know the difference between "unconvinced" and "don't believe"?

I choose my words very carefully because you believers run off half cocked and claim things I never said.

You do the same thing with the Bible...

The Bible is in black and white but when it suits you totally mislead people with your poor language and study skills.

That is your corruption changing anther person's words and replacing them with your own wrong words.

This is pretty simple stuff NNN.

So when Jesus says in his own words things you guys totally misconstrue or even change the words or the meaning to suit your unthinking indoctrinations.

Jesus said Mark 10:18 And he said unto him, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD, THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS, GOD.

He is rebuking the person for putting him on God's level!

So how did the man made Trinity come about - Men like you got it all wrong!

All the believers in the Trinity have corrupted the words!

Jesus said

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

Get it?...lol

Bush bunny, The OT is a history of ancient Israel and it discloses the morally bad as well as the good. It is their ancient history. Write a history of modern National leaders; not so pure eh? In Modern Israel they see G-d giving them the victory in the 6 day war and they destroyed their enemies does that make them totally gruesome? They have contributed greatly to medicine and agriculture and say G-d inspired their medical and agricultural teams. Does that make their claims invalid. False: Ruth a Gentile never gave birth to Isaac as you claim; Isaac's mother was Sarah. Abraham never sacrificed his son, that was the point of his conversion from polytheism of sacrifice of humans to the polytheistic [Elohim plural] culture in which he grew up. His father was a maker of statue gods. It was YHWH [Monotheistic God of Israel] who revealed to him to sacrifice a lamb, as YHWH abhorred human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was still carried out by Germanic tribes in the 6th century AD. Jesus was tempted by the leader of the Jewish Zealots held out in the desert against the Roman occupation. Devil is a Roman word used in place of Satan an anglicised term for Hebrew satanas meaning an opponent. Again misinformed! Jesus was not about Israeli Nationalism as the Zealots, but about demonstrating unconditional love for all mankind. If you understood the scriptures you would know David was charged as an adulterer and murderer. Similar to many current leaders and stars today, who accept it their right of privilege. We learn moral justice from this story that adultery and murder is sin. You seem to think David's behaviour is accepted as normal by Christians to be taught to children as acceptable. It rather demonstrates your bigotry rather than proper research and understanding of Biblical text.

Nice waffle there Josephus but let me correct the record regarding what you stated.

The argument that Elohim (Gods) is the change from polytheism to monotheism is a theory and hotly contested in scholarly circles. You state it is fact and then laughingly use the Abraham/Isaac story as your evidence. The Mormons, I think from memory, also hold that theory true but they get their information from Planet Kolob...lmao Are you in touch with Kolob also?..lmao

Abraham was a religious zealot who in a fit of murderous insanity thought that God told him to kill his son Isaac. Thankfully when he got to actually doing it his rational brain clicked in and he lost his nerve.

So what does an insane religious zealot do when they are so nutty as to do such a thing? That's right they claim God stayed their hand. And you believe this rubbish!

The problem is that their is another story about child sacrifice to God that you failed to mention. In this God forgot to stay the hand of the father and the child was sacrificed...Funny how you didn't mention that one!...lmao

I'll show it all in my next post.

Judges 11:30-39 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I WILL OFFER IT UP FOR A BURNT OFFERING.

Lo and behold what was the first thing to greet him after the victory?

His daughter... Perhaps God only stays the hand of mental dimwits that want to kill a boy like Abraham...

Once again the Bible proves you wrong Josephus...

I love the Bible..It's like a rock around the neck of believers sucking them in so I can show where it spits them out...lmao

Keep up the good work! lmao

Well to me, the Old Testament is to me, emphasizing the power of God, over humans, and that it is a Hebrew history of lineage, so much is so and so begot or beget so and so. It is horrible in comparison to the new testament. Killing all the new born, the death of the oldest child in the Passover. If it is a metaphor with some historical fact, it is frightening to children. I was brought up as a catholic, and I can tell you the thought of God watching any deviation from the path chosen for me by priests, scared me. Most probably still does subconsciously.

The bible is a testament from some ancient beliefs and folk tales, and there definitely was a flood, and that was about 6,000 years ago, after the last ice age and seas rose again from melting ice. We know this from archaeology. North America north and south of the great lakes was not inhabited until 10,000 years ago. They can't find any evidence. Plenty of mega fauna. I loved the Nativity, even if it never happened like this. But I respect that the 25th December has been earmarked as Jesus' birth date. But most Christian holy days are on the same date as pagan celebrations. In the Northern Hemisphere, not south. Anyway, if you are looking for the truth, don't study the bible, study ancient history or archaeology.

Anyway, "without a knowledge of History, you are leaf that doesn't know it belongs to a tree.."(Michael Crighton, TimeLine)

Sorry it is too big to put here...

Judges 11:30-39...And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I WILL OFFER IT UP FOR A BURNT OFFERING.

So he won the battle giving God the credit and went home

And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, BEHOLD, HIS DAUGHTER CAME OUT TO MEET HIM with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.

And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, WHO DID WITH HER ACCORDING TO HIS VOW which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,

SO IF GOD WAS ANTI CHILD SACRIFICE WHY DIDN'T HE STAY THE HAND OF THIS NUTTER FATHER LIKE YOU MISGUIDED PEOPLE BELIEVE HE DID WITH ABRAHAM?

OOPSY! Aint Bible study fun?...lmao

Bush Bunny... There have been many floods but NEVER a flood that covered every mountain in the world, whilst humans have inhabited the planet like believers believe.

Please don't use big words like Archeological or scientific with them - you will confound them...lmao.

With these people you have to be very precise or they will run off with wrong information.

They often falsely claim that the flood is mentioned in every ancient culture ... that too is wrong. Great floods are mentioned in some ancient cultures but most don't claim the flood covered every mountain top on the planet.

Accuracy is not one of their strengths because they have a hidden agenda... to spread their lack of knowledge to others and undermine truth by converting others to their backwward beliefs.

They are so immoral as to scare children so that they are too scared to question anything. If they haven't got answers they say "God works in mysterious ways".

The OT is only horrible compared to the NT because they simply accept the OT in the NT. Jesus threatened people with hellfire and an eternity of damnation when his moderate message was so openly rejected.

Also Jesus told stories of cutting people in two

Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

I can understand his frustration...It is like showing the truth to believers on here...they can't stand the truth!

I don't care if they believe in fairy tales, more fool them! I object to them spreading lies as truth and indoctrinating children into believing their lies and them not caring one little bit about the deception!

When good people do nothing evil thrives... It's time for good people to correct the lies!

Keep up the good work!

Op2, Taking a verse out of context again. The Manager here is those controlling the Temple in Jerusalem. What happened to them in AD 70? They received a severe beating at the hands of the Romans. Luke 12:46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. In the culture is that the servant manager has been beating those under him so when the owner returns he finds him abusing those under him. So the owner severs his contract [the owner cuts him in two from their agreement, not cuts him in half as you imply] and considers he is as an immoral person not fit to be a citizen. The evil manager is still alive but cut out of citizenship. The next verses state that the evil manager received a severe beating. Beating was a cultural norm in the Roman world as punishment for abuse of others.

Opine2, of course not covered the whole planet. Or got to mountains like Mt.Ararat. But the Noah story is still told in that part of the world. The Black Sea was separated from the Dardanelles by a rock bridge, shelf and it was undermined by the rising black sea, and it suddenly gave way, and salt water flowed into the fresh water lake. Eventually through to the Med and drowned any settlements near by. This happened in lots of places. The Bering Straights, separating Alaska from Siberia. PNG from mainland Australia and Tasmania. Great Britain from continental Europe, and lots of islands of course. There is lots of archaeological evidence supporting the existence of cities or towns mentioned in the Bible. Including the first temple destroyed by the Babylonians, and they found idols or statues obviously pagan not Roman, in a house dating back to about 600 BC. It just that some religions have decided to interpret the Bible themselves. That Australian Mr Ham, building a 27 million dollar theme park featuring dinosaurs playing near children? Now is building an Ark. He's the most arrogant man and making millions out of it.

Well Noah would not have saved elephants, or lions, they were safe in Africa. But goats, sheep and chickens, dogs, etc., (I don't think they had cows then, not the giant ones anyway) They may have stored grain etc., to sow somewhere else. Anyway good night everyone, it's midnight here and time for bed.

Oh Josephus stop misusing the Bible to justify your crazy religious beliefs...

Jesus had failed in his quest to teach love and peace and got angrier as time progressed. He threatened hellfire and damnation more... and then he threatened what would happen to this who refused his teachings.

Linking it to the Romans and their oppression is just ridiculous.

That Catholic Bible study of yours has sure left you stranded, grasping at straws....lol...It is you who are getting things wrong!

Here is another version for you it is about lack of faith not the Romans

Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come at a time when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not ready for him, and he will have him cut in two and will give him his part in the fate of those who have no faith;

It is another threat from Jesus... Go back to Bible study 101.

And you claim I take the verse out of context...See what happens when your indoctrinated mind can't face the truth..You talk garbage!

Who was it that let Jesus down the most?...The Jews...The believers....They got him angry!

Who let's Jesus' teachings down the most still to this day...the believers...Like you misusing his clear teachings by changing the words and the context.

See that is why your belief system is a Paulian Pharisaical load of rubbish.

The Catholics follow Paul and ignore Jesus continually. The Protestants broke away from Catholicism but weren't smart enough to defeat the indoctrinations and misuse of Jesus' words.

They too continued to get it all wrong and defy the true teachings!

Mark 7:7-9 Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.

For you ignore God’s law and substitute your own tradition.”

Then he said, “You skilfully sidestep God’s law in order to hold on to your own tradition.

Back to Bible kindergarten for you!

Op2, Your ignorance of what Jesus was facing is appalling. He along with many Galileans objected to the way the Temple was fleecing the worshippers. Rejecting their offerings and selling them others previously rejected offerings. He challenged the corruption going on in the Temple in Jerusalem, and overturned their exchange tables. He talked frequently about the Temple being destroyed. The parable is about those supposedly managing the vineyard [which represented the Israeli worshippers the vine]. What happened to the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD. I suggest you read Jewish History, They were slaughtered by the Romans. Not a nice story, but it was real history. Jesus never instigated the slaughter of the Temple Masters nor did his followers. The Jews because of their nationalism were disinherited from the citizens of the Kingdom. They were as unbelievers. Op2 you are misinforming readers of the facts of history, and the character of Jesus.

OMG!...You are so blind it is scary Josephus...

I know Jewish history...

Luke 12:46...The lord of that servant will come at a time when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not ready for him, and he will have him cut in two and will give him his part in the fate of those who have no faith;

Jesus is telling a story about his return which he gave up due to the ignorance of people like yourself...lmao

The verse simplified for you

Jesus will come at a time noone knows...Matthew 24:36

You believers won't be prepared...You are the servants and you have destroyed his teachings...Mark 7:7-9

You claim faith but you will get your punishment along with those with no faith!

You deceitfully claim learned scholarship, and choose Josephus to impress people as part of your trickery.

You have been indoctrinated in the ways of your flawed religion and you are forcing your false religions traditions and teachings like it says in Mark 7:7-9.

You are blinded by your indoctrinations!

You don't have the faith of a grain of mustard seed and yet you would claim you do...delusional much?

Jesus threatened believers like you, because they like you, were too easily swayed by the Pharisees (your kind) and teachers of the law. He corrected them and he is correcting you. You are one of the believers who will refuse his kingdom and that is why he won't come back.

He tried the love and hope stuff and he was rejected the same as you are rejecting his words in this verse going off about AD70...lmao

Why do you bear false witness against me...It is you who are corrupted by your indoctrinations...It is your religion that has built up huge wealth against Jesus' teachings and covered up and lied about all manner of crimes.

The truth is in plain sight and yet you come from a pack of wolves diverting your false message. You are simply a Pharisee!

You have misrepresented JESUS continually like a true Pharisee!

Tell me something, people who lived in the Lavant and Egypt, Mesopotamia and Persia, had a completely different world view, to us today. It was dreadful all the conflicts and taking slaves etc. The Romans stabilized the region to some extent. The Jewish elders were trying to keep on the good side of the Romans, knowing that the bottom line was 'Cooperate or we will kill you'. Some present day Jews see Jesus as a radical, and the Roman's were rarely wrong, they knew how to keep the peace. (Their idea of the peace) Josephus, entered and I think it was at Medina, where he and the Jews who had fled there, eventually committed suicide, and he and another were left. He joined the Romans and began to re-write Jewish History. One thing about the Jews they took on one big big adversary. Yes, they died and the second Temple was burned down and looted. The gold was used to erect the Colosseum in Rome.

We owe the ancient Romans a lot, roads, political schemes, organized military warfare. aqueducts, and the Jews were always either scattered or driven into ghettos in Europe, etc. They were driven from Britain by Henry Vlll, after they had lent him money. And brutally driven until after the WWll. Why do you think Hitler had the eagle as a standard, and came down hard on most Christian religions including the Jews. No wonder the Jews wanted to flee to their historic homeland.

As Easter is only a few days away, did Jesus resurrect? Yes he did in spirit only, or as some have suggested he didn't die on the cross, but survived and fled to other realms, where he was married to Mary Magdeline and had children. No I believe he was crucified, and Pontius Pilot was punished by Rome, and blamed for the Jewish unrest 40 years later.

Israel is so small, with a low population, and surrounded by Arab countries bent on their destruction. Yet they are determined to survive.

Opinionated2. You don't seem to know much of the history, even though you claim to know it. And you definitely don't show an understanding of the bible. In fact you are drowning in misunderstanding while trying to make potshots out of Christian's beliefs.

Josephus. Thank you for bringing up the historical facts, because Opinionated2's "facts" are just his opinions and philosophy. The history you point out takes it away from arguments where one person says one thing and the other says another thing, but no one else knows who is right and who is lying.

Not..Now..Never and Josephus have formed an indoctrinated Pharisee ones union being wrong together.....It's a marriage made in lack of knowing...lmao

Your Paulian based Pharisaical religions sure walked their jack boots through your heads...lmao....See what happens when you believe in talking snakes?

For the last time...Jesus like all of the Abrahamic religions couldn't sell love. He tried his darndest but he was dealing with believers like you.

He got frustrated throughout his ministry because like you are doing now nobody would listen.

John 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Not the 12 but many left.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Like you guys do still to this day...34,000-44,000 sects and denominations.

Matthew 27:46 “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”

Oh look God has forsaken himself under the Trinity that you guys believe...lmao

How many times did he threaten the pits of hell, the fiery lakes, gnashing of teeth, all so you could continually ignore his frustrations.

Finally giving up and pleading to himself...lmao

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

He cursed a fig tree as the frustrations grew.

With all his frustrations building he tells the parable of the gold coins...Luke 19:27

Luke 19:11-27 Now, as for those enemies of mine who did not want me to be their king, bring them here and kill them in my presence!’”

He said things in parables because the religious world were looking for a fast way to kill him. He told parables so as to confuse the Pharisees and look at your confusion...lmao

You follow the most destructive group of religions of all time and miss all the points continually...lmao

Why do you hate God so much be believing all the horrid lies against...God in the Bible?

Pathetic!...lmao

I'd like to wish everyone a "Happy Easter," break.

Enjoy your time with your loved ones. And for those
interested there's some great movies out right now -
apart from "Red Sparrow," there - "Paul, Apostle of
Christ," that's supposedly excellent, and of course
in keeping with Easter - there's "Peter Rabbit."
(Take the grandkids).

Enjoy your Easter Holiday folks!

Don't eat too much chocolate!

Happy Family Rest and Relaxation time everyone...

May your self control be strong with all the chocolate temptations in our faces.

May your calorie intake be lowered by correct choices.

May the wines you drink be full of flavour and not dull your brains! Nature dulled many of you already...lol

May the desserts you consume go straight to waste and not to your waists.

May the suffering, the sad, the disheartened, the poor, the less fortunate, and all of the down trodden find some peace and happiness at this time and from now on.

May we all thrill at the excitement in the children's eyes during Easter Egg hunts and learn to love the way children love.

And to all that are so wrong on here... Blurters...lol

I'll beat you up again tomorrow...lol

Peace and love to all

Tell me folks, why do they say 'Happy Easter' Jesus died a horrible death, OK so he allegedly was resurrected in spirit only, not bodily, as his bones were never found. Although some think they have found them.

Easter or the spring solstice has been practiced in England for centuries before Christianity, it is a pagan symbol of rebirth of the land, etc. Eggs were given as symbols, not chocie but real eggs. Anyway, have a nice holiday in anyway that makes you happy.

The term Easter was introduced to Christianity by the Roman syncretic Church from their pagan worship of Eostre, a Teutonic goddess of spring and fertility. I prefer to remember elements of the Jewish Passover as the season as it was Passover time in Judaism when Jesus was crucified. Passover in Judaism was the time when a lamb was sain to save them from the angel of death. Jesus observed the Passover with his disciples and announced a new covenant that would include blessings to all people. Commercialism has destroyed its meaning and reduced it from a Holiday to a day off work.

Now look, he's not the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjz16xjeBAA

Happy Good Friday, everyone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lc86JUAwwg&

Like the Passover nevr happening, the crcifixion of Jesus is also bogus as he didn't die.

Only the zealots who won't study correctly believe this rubbish.

I see that Josephus is blurring the lines with his propaganda mentioning "the angel of death"in a non-event.

There was no angel of death it was God who the religious outrageously believe killed all the firstborn.

Exodus 12:12 For I (GOD) will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I (GODD) will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

Note that God is executing judgement on the pretend Gods of Egypt...What did he do? Set up a court judging statues and engravings?...lmao

But Jesus story there is a problem also.

Matthew 26:19-20 And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

But hang on...

John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

OOPSY...In John he was already arrested...

This story is full of giant gaping holes but the Bible Scholars blinded by belief miss them...lol

If they drove the way they studied we would have to take their licenses off them...lmao

What outrageous person would celebrate the Passover? A person with horrid Psychopathic tendencies perhaps?

Believers celebrate the deaths of innocent babies and children and every firstborn in Egypt, even though THE PASSOVER NEVER HAPPENED.

Any non-Jewish slave lost their firstborn as well as any firstborn woman who was with child at the time.

At 911 when media showed a few Muslims celebrating...the outrage it caused? NO outrage with these Passover lies though!

ACCORDING TO JOHN JESUS COULDN'T HAVE BEEN AT THE LAST SUPPER PASSOVER MEAL!

The drink!

Matthew 27:34 mentions gall (hemlock)http://strongsnumbers.com/hebrew/7219.htm Gall means bitter but hemlock...(a poison)...can cause unconsciousness and death. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/821362-overview

Matthew 27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

After he was taken down from the cross.

What was in the wine (vinegar)? Why would they call it vinegar and not wine? And did he really drink it or not? The verses contradict each other as to whether he drank and the substances in the vinegar. PLUS some show two attempts to give JESUS fluid and others only 1 attempt.

John 19:29-30 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put (it) upon hyssop, and put (it) to his mouth.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

OOPS! A differing passage

Mark 15:23 And they gave him to drink wine mingled with myrrh: but he received (it) not.

Mark 15:23 mentions the oil Myrrh - http://www.3dchem.com/moremolecules.asp?...20Molmol).

Mark 15:36 And one ran and filled a spunge full of vinegar, and put (it) on a reed, and gave him to drink, saying, Let alone; let us see whether Elias will come to take him down.

OOPS! Another differing passage. Did he swallow or was just tasting enough to render him unconscious?

Matthew 27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink

Gaping Holes Galore!

We have evidence that Jesus may have been comatose but not dead due to drugs he was given..He seemed dead but he died really quickly. Jesus' leg was NOT Broken.

John 19:31-34 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Water? Did they strike a garden hose when they stabbed him?...lmao

So he is removed from the cross, thought to be dead and placed in the crypt...

John 19:39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.

"...Nicodemus took Myrrh and Aloes" Myrrh has antiseptic qualities and alloes have healing properties....they are not embalmers....http://www.peacehealth.org/KBASE/cam/hn-2036003.htm

100 lbs is a lot of spice!

If Jesus was given a small amount of poison on the cross he could have been in comatose very quickly. Breathing may have seemed non-existant.

Nicodemus appears at the tomb with healing herbs, not embalming herbs.

Jesus died in the evening of the Friday and was raised on the morning of the Sunday...Where did the three days and nights go?

Matthew 12:40..."for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so shall the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

OOPS!

Matt. 28:1 - "Now after the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to look at the grave."

So Friday late afternoon till early Sunday morning isn't 3 days and nights...OOPSY! It's 1.5 days!.

There are way too many problems with this story!

To Opinionated2.

You complain that I thank Josephes? Why? It's because it's inconvenient to you. History is like both experience and the scientific method, because all three can cut past the egos of people and their boldly puched philosophies. Why would anyone not support historical finding? Again like everything else you stand against it's because it's inconvenient to you and your philosophies.

To give you better understanding, I will teach you.

Romans 3:9-20 sums up how good mankind is. But instead of saying good things, the section shows that no one has lived up to God's standard, and gives examples of why. It is comparable to Psalms 53:3 that says that all have turned away and shown corruption. That no one is good, not even one.

It's also comparable to Isaiah 64:6, that says that all of us are like an unclean person (diseased, worked with a dead body, or like a woman going through her period). That even our acts of righteousness are like filthy rags.

(Continued)

(Continued)

This is one of the foundations of Christianity. A good hard look at ourselves. Look at us individually. Look at us as a group as the whole world. Both in the present and throughout history. Even our best moments in history are marred with selfish ambition and clashing egos, as well as our greatest victories for justice and governing, at one point or another need to be striped back again because of the systemic corruption that has grown into it. That doesn't include our pure and clean ambitions to set up programs and institutions to take care of the weak, the poor, or any other kind of need, sometime in history or in today's world where those very institutions are taking advantage of and abusing the very populations they are set up to look after.

This is our world, and this is us. It's an ugly truth, but it is a foundation that needs to be heard to understand why we need to be saved. Because our best just isn't good enough, and we can't save ourselves.

However, our state of being is not a reflection of God's love. The other foundation of Christianity is that God comes to redeem us and to clean us. As Jesus healed the lepers and the woman who could not stop her cycle (it wasn't monthly it was continually), God can wash us and make us clean. John 3:16. God so loved the world he gave His only Son.

To Bush Bunny.

Easter is a celibration of Resus's reserection. Not His death. Jesus died for our sins, but He rose again. Not just in spirit, but bodily as well. (Or do spirits now have the ability to eat and drink. Jesus did both with his disciples). From there Jesus's bones won't be found. Because He is risen. (Not that we can identify one person's bones from another's. CSI investigation doesn't work on a historic level. Archeology goes to digs to find the truth, but can't find the details of who's who when they find a body).

Jesus sacrificed Himself, and then even conquored death. He then went to join God in the heavenly realms, but again he did not leave a body behind. Easter is a celibration of Jesus rising, and the hope and promise that comes with that.

//Not that we can identify one person's bones from another's. CSI investigation doesn't work on a historic level. Archeology goes to digs to find the truth, but can't find the details of who's who when they find a body//

Yes we can. Have you not heard of King Richard III of England? I know you yanks don't pay much attention to the rest of the world, but I'd have thought that that particular bit of news would've made it across the pond.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England#Discovery_of_remains

NotNowNever...Are from outer space? You can thank anyone you like for anything you like because you are so easily mislead and diverted your thanks mean nothing.

No wonder you fail Jesus with every post you make.

THE TRUTH is the foundation stone. Try it some time!

The history is important on everything BUT using history to misrepresent the facts isn't the truth.

See you have abandoned Jesus for your evidence as Pharisees always do.

You go to Paul the Oppressor and Pharisee for your explanation bypassing Jesus as usual. You do remember Jesus don't you?

He's the one the Catholics still have on the cross even though he was taken down centuries ago...lol

Why would you go to Isaiah and mention women's periods in your rubbish explanation. Calling a woman "ünclean" is an obscenity at any time of the month! Wake UP!

How can a righteous act be like a filthy rag if you do it with a pure heart and no hidden agendas. Oh that's right you Christians do everything with a hidden agenda so you wouldn't understand that. Isaiah and most of your prophets (lol) were manic depressives.

You waffle on about Christianity looking at itself when it has dliberately covered up crimes against children since it began...Can you really be this blind? You church goers know about these crimes but do you do the righteous thing and leave...Of course not...You support the criminality over and over again by attending.

Your explanations are so flawed, so self-righteous and self-forgiving that you fail Jesus continually. Remember Jesus yet?

So Jesus is only a son again in John 3:16 I thought believers promoted him to God. So what is Jesus God or the Son of God?

You are right you believers need to be saved from the religious babble you think is rational.

Don't give up your day job for preaching...Learn the truth first and then start your lecturing!

Your religion is full of self-righteous hypocrites and Pharisees!

I think it doesn't matter if Jesus lived and died or survived. The Jewish faction that transpired and the gentiles that St.Paul converted, made compromises. No circumcision. If it had not been for St.Paul, Jesus' memory and sacrifice would have died along with him, if he really lived?

Just remember Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew. As an archaeology student, they can date most organic material.

In the mean time,we have Scientologists have Thetans, Seventh Day Adventists,creation is six days, one of which once said, 'They are banning the Saturday Sabbath in the USA" (Yes, well I think the Muslims and Jews would have something to say about that.) Complete ignorance, we didn't evolve from the primate line. That is sacrilege. That's why I am a deist.

The bible is written in the world view and interpretation of lst century Greeks and clerics the old Testament is part of the Hebrew Bible. It has been translated a number of times. The old testament was not written by Moses, even if he lived. If he did that was around 1300 BC during Ramses time. If you take the Holy Bible literary, you might as well believe Santa Clause is a real person. (He was centuries ago, in pagan times, Odin or Woden flew across the skies, with reindeer pulling a sleigh dropping fruit for the children during the height of the winter solstice. He had a red robe. There was a St.Nicolas and most countries in the Northern Hemisphere accept the States, had a winter solstice that was joined with Saturnalia, the Anglo Saxon Yule, and Judaism, and Jesus' birth, The Nativity. Dec 25th is convenient for the Christians, although the Greek and Russian orthodox say Jan 6th. Jehovah Witnesses, don't celebrate Christmas.

Religion is tribal, like politics,makes heaps of money and should not be something for violent debate. Religion evolves along with a culture's transformation, and if it values anything, is that God, belongs to everyone, not just one sect.

It absolutely does matter if Jesus died or didn't die. That is like saying it doesn't matter if the dinosaurs died out before man came along.

Religions are multi-million dollar businesses who continue to fleece the flock of sheep that follow them.

Should we let robbers go free just because they say sorry?

Religions and preachers have been allowed to get away with all manner of evil because their flocks are too lazy to study properly.

Josephus said the "Angel of Death" killed all the firstborn of Egypt. The Bible says יְהֹוָה Yahweh God did it!

People seem to believe religions and people who claim to be knowing yet never check the facts. I check the facts and the Bible proves them all wrong continually.

If Jesus didn't die and their was no resurrection that once again totally undermines the false teaching of the Trinity.

Jesus said many things denying he was God and yet they ignore Jesus or God and claim Jesus is God. This is the great lie of the Pharisaical churches.

Jesus says whilst standing in front of the people he was addressing......John 5:37 "And the Father (God) himself, which hath sent me (Jesus), hath borne witness of me (Jesus). Ye have neither heard his (God's) voice at any time, nor seen his (God's) shape."

Is Jesus lying here?

The religions have made billions and billions of dollars from falsifying the facts and the lazy dummies who sign up refuse to test these liars!

Religion is a money making venture defying everything that Jesus taught and covering up crimes in Jesus' name.

If the facts don't matter to people then they should remain sheep and get fleeced more often!...lmao

The Hebrew word didn't show in the last post..It states Yahweh killed the first born in the passover!

If truth isn't important then let's just believe the lies of the religions.

Let's ignore Jesus totally like they do.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Jesus states ONLY GOD is good! This is an outright separation of Jesus and GOD...Jesus said it!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."

Jesus states....No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them... How can this be?

WAS JOHN LYING HERE?

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Moses said he saw God so either Jesus is lying throughout or Moses is...

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

He ascends to GOD. They are separate!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

So "he goes" to the father who is greater than Jesus so how can Jesus be GOD? If they were the same wouldn't they be equal

Verse after verse believers deliberately ignore...Then they want us to trust them about an afterlife based on the Bible? Yeah right!

This is how lies become truth... cont...

WAS JESUS ACTING HERE?

Matthew 26:39 “And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.”

Was he praying to himself? Why would he throw himself on the ground requesting GOD not make him suffer?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

Both have life in themselves...Why does Jesus separate what is supposedly the same?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Without GOD Jesus can do nothing, is another statement of separation. It is GOD's will Jesus seeks not his own.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

The son sees the father do things and then emulates GOD? Is the penny dropping yet?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Matthew 6:9 Our Father, which art in Heaven hallowed be thy name.

Was Jesus praying to himself? And isn't heaven supposedly within? How can Jesus tell them to pray to the father when you guys believe he is both the father and the son?

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Matthew 27:46 My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Is Jesus pleading with himself? So by ignoring this are you saying GOD and Jesus are fakers?

Sorry but anyone who says the truth doesn't matter is WRONG!

Toni Lavis. Intreasting the methods they used to determine Richard III. But none of those methods can be applied to Jesus, I don't think.

To Opinionated2. You speak of truth but you offer none yourself.

History is one thing that determines what is facts and what is opinion. What is our past, verse what we want to believe and philosophize ourselves to be. I suggest you seek real sources of truth that will carve away falsehoods. Instead you show a lack of understanding and instead wish to make up your own "truths."

Both the letters in the New Testament as well as the books in the Old Testament point to Jesus. But if that makes you nervous to hold more scripture, then I'll also teach from Jesus's teachings as well. But first I'll answer your questions.

Which part offends you more? That God protected women and their health in their menstruation cycle so that they wouldn't have sex during that time? Or that Jesus healed a woman who never stopped menstruating?

How is our righteousness like filthy rags? Even our best is not enough. If it was our world would be in a better state then it is now. The truth you seem to not get is that mankind needs saving. God had to come to redeem us, wash us. from our sinful natures, and make us clean. God did this by sending Jesus to teach us and redeem us, and He continues to do it through His Holy Spirit, and His direct influence on us.

(Continued)

(Continued)

As for the Trinity. I look at it differently then you probably do. Jesus prayed to God and sought to have time with God alone. This could be as an example for us to follow, or it could also be because Jesus needed to do this too. Therefor, because there is scripture that shows Jesus and God to be separate individuals, as well as scripture where Jesus says that He and God are one I. Because of these my conclusions fall a bit differently. Like a king is the head of a nation, God is Jesus's Father and is in charge. Still like a king is the head of a kingdom, Jesus is the authority of the church (all members of the church, not just denominations). So for us Christians, we should look to Jesus as our authority, and by doing so we also look to God who is the Head of the household. (Just as the bible holds men in the role of being the head of the household of their family). Belief in Jesus because God has placed Jesus there to be the head of the church. By doing this Jesus is the way to His Father, to God.

As for who needs saving, are you so dense that you don't understand Jesus came to save the world? That anyone who believes and relies on Jesus is saved? It is open for anyone, but the need is for everyone. You need Jesus as well. Possibly more then I need Him because you haven't found Him yet. Like a lost runaway needs their family more then the one who stayed with his parents and had their needs and safety met because they were still with their family.

To Opinionated2. Since it aggravates you to teach from the Old Testament as well as the letters in the New Testament, then I will also teach from Jesus as well. (Both the books of the OT and the letters of the NT point to Jesus though. I will not stop using them as a source of teaching or learning).

Jesus in a parable and a lesson showed how important it is to listen and apply what He teaches. Jesus said. "Those who listen to what He says and put it into practice are like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." So with that in mind let's talk about what Jesus taught.

Some of the easiest lessons to read come from Jesus's Sermon on the Mount, because they're are several lessons in that sermon and they are spoken plainly without being in parables. For reference I'll be following along the sermon on the mountian in Mathew 5-7, and a similar sermon in Luke 6, along with verses in few other places as well.

(Continued)

(Continued)

In Mathew, Jesus taught 8 things for people being blessed. Those who are poor in Spirit, because theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven. Those who mourn, because they will be comforted. Those who are meek, because they will inherit the earth. Those who hunger and thirst for rightousness, because they will be filled. The merciful because they'll be shown mercy. The pure in Heart, because they will see God. The peacemakers, because they will be called children of God. Those who are persecuted because of rightousness, theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Jesus even explains that if you are insulted, perscuted or slandered and lied about, any of those things because of following Jesus. Then even then you are blessed, because that is how the prophets were also perscuted.

Luke shows Jesus teach about blessings, simular to the blessings in Mathew. But there is also warnings of woe as well. To those who are blessed: there is the poor, because they will have the Kingdom of God. Those who are hungry, because they will be satified. Those who weep, because they will laugh. And blessed are those who are hated, excluded, insulted rejected as evil because of being a follower of Jesus, because that is how our ancestors treated the prophets, and great is your reward in heaven.

Jesus continues though with a warning of woes. Woe to those who are rich, because they have already received their comfort. Those who are well fed, because they will go hungry. Those who laugh now because they will weep and morn later. And woe to you when people speak well of you, because that is how our ancestors treated false prophets.

These are the teachings from Jesus concerning rewards and warnings. The blessing in Mathew teach how we should be. The blessings and warnings in Luke we are taught that in times of suffering, we will be rewarded, and in times of good things, there is justice awaiting us. Seems to speak of the social injustice we have in the world, and the price of being blessed in an unjust world.

I'll continue more on the sermons on a different day. After Easter probably.

//Intreasting the methods they used to determine Richard III. But none of those methods can be applied to Jesus, I don't think.//

Of course they can. In the same way that Richard III's skeleton displayed characteristics consistent with his disability and injuries, the skeleton of Jesus would display characteristics of crucifixion. Of course, the Romans crucified lots of people, but as I understand the practice it wasn't routine procedure to stab crucifixees with a spear to check they were dead. So a skeleton displaying characteristics consistent with crucifixion and a post-mortem abdominal stab wound would be a fairly big giveaway.

But as with Richard III, the big clincher would be DNA analysis. Now, as far as I know, Jesus doesn't have any living descendants. But in churches all over Europe, there are samples of his DNA in the form of relics. A sample of Jesus's blood, obtained from the vial contained within The Basilica of the Holy Blood in Belgium, would provide all the DNA required for comparison.

On a side note, because the samples obtained from relics would be samples of Jesus's pure DNA and not just the DNA of a descendant, we'd be able to do more than just run an analysis. If somebody really wanted to, it would be possible to clone Jesus from one of those samples, and thus ensure the 2nd coming. Somebody should tell all the loony Apocalyptic christians in your country that they don't have to bother with all their evil meddling in middle-eastern politics to try and bring out their much desired end of the world. They can just go ahead and clone Jesus, save everyone a lot of hassle.

Good Morning Everyone,

Did you all turn your clocks back one hour?
Those of you affected by Daylight savings that is.
It ended today. We get an extra hour. Once again,
Happy Easter, and Enjoy Your Day!

Anyone see the film, "The Ten Commandments?" on TV
last night? Charlton Heston as Moses?

Yes Foxy I did. I saw it in UK as a child on the big screen. Yer saw it last night Terrible script, well Charleston was a Jew of course. It was one of the new epic films such as 'The Robe' The Bible, Jesus, (the first time we were allowed to see his face played by Jeffery Hunter, who was blue eyed) Ten Commandments, and Ben Hur. On CinemaScope.

About identification, the Romans cremated themselves. And the Jews let the body disintegrate, then collect all the bones and put them in small wooden and/stone boxes with the name on it, in Aramaic. Some scientist or archaeologist thought they had found him and relatives. Remember the Sabbath was Saturday not Sunday. They would not have had the same calendar as us. Maybe not 7 days in a week. I take that back, on the 7th God rested. The Romans had a ten month calendar. Has anyone read the Roman version of the crucifixion they wrote things down.
It was quite possible for his body to have been stolen. Anyway, Easter Sunday is the third day, God Friday being day 1. And folks, he was resurrected, as over 2,000 years later, people are making millions out of his history and spirituality. Even though he was a Jew, whom the Jews do not recognise as their long awaited Messiah.

NotNowNeve...PROVES my points again the poor little indoctrinated soul...It's like watching a train wreck caused through indoctrination and a manipulated mind...lol

I'll keep showing what Jesus says...The Pharisaically afflicted churches teach Jesus is God...You know it!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 17:21-23 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This defines how Jesus defines "being as one", if we can be one with Jesus and GOD what is he saying here?

I can't be Jesus or GOD so when he uses the words "as one" he is talking in a spiritual sense, being on the same page and understanding, NOT being one entity.

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Question: So we can be GOD also? NO! Jesus further explains oneness here! It means one in spirit... This isn't so tricky!

GOD gave Jesus, a separate entity, glory. God then passes that glory onto us. I can't be as one with Jesus in a physical sense... I can never be Jesus... BUT then using the words in this verse, can Jesus be GOD. If the words don't apply to us how can they apply to Jesus and GOD when Jesus states that they may be one, even as we are one:?

So all your waffle about the women's menstrual cycle called an uncleanliness is simply UGLY MISGUIDED RUBBISH BY UGLY MISGUIDED MEN!

In Revelation Methane John says Jesus will hangout with 144,000 virgin men who haven't been DEFILED BY WOMEN... ANOTHER UGLY MISGUIDED MAN!

So keep up the good work NNN your Pharisaical brainwashing is out there for all to see.

You don't trust Jesus enough to believe him!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

GOD (an entity), sent his SON (another entity) , and the Holy Ghost (another entity), in Jesus' name. GOD doesn't visit you - the Holy Ghost does!

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

So we can speak against JESUS but can't speak against the Holy Ghost as the latter only won't be forgiven? Aren't they one in the same under the trinity? This is a clear case of absolute separation.

Many people here need to study more and actually listen to how Jesus explains his oneness with GOD and our ability to be at one with GOD. It doesn't make us all the same being!

Even John 3:16 is misquoted by Christians.

For God (one entity) so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son (Jesus another entity), that whosoever believeth in him (GOD) should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This is proven in

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and BELIEVETH ON HIM THAT SENT ME, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 5:24 proves that what most believe in John 3:16 is wrong! Why do believers ignore John 5:24. It's simply because they didn't know it was there and/or would prefer to believe in the teachings of men over the teachings of Jesus.

Should we trust Jesus' own words on the matter?

Apparently not!

The believers don't so why should we?

Dear Bush bunny,

Prof. Barbara Thiering in her book, "Jesus The Man: A
New Interpretation from the Dead Sea Scrolls," under
the chapter "People and Events," tells us that:

"Jesus - Son of Joseph, a descendant of King David through
the Nathan line, and of Mary. Jesus was conceived during
his parents' betrothal period before their legal marriage,
so was regarded by the party of Hebrews as an extranuptial
son of Joseph. He was born in March, 7 BC. For Hellenists
in the ascetic movement, he was the legitimate David, and
would rule when the Kingdom came, either as an independent
king, or as a subordinate of the Herods. In AD 29 he joined
with the Twelve Apostles, Hellenists, to oppose John the
Baptist, who held the doctrine of Hebrews. But Jesus
introduced entirely new doctrines, claiming to be able himself
to fill the position of high priest, as well as king.

Thus he taught the priesthood of all believers, and also
the free admission of all members, including Gentiles, without
hierarchical grading on the grounds of birth, race, sex or
physical condition.

He was opposed to all parties working for Jewish supremacy, and
was called by them the "Wicked (Anti) Priest" and "Man of a Lie."
Jesus was crucified through political stratagem, on the grounds
that he was technically an associate of zealots.

He was given poison on the cross to end his sufferings, but merely
lost consciousness, and was helped to revive by his friends.
He remained with the pro-Gentile party in its successive forms,
guiding its leaders, John Mark, then Peter, then Paul. In
AD 61 Jesus led his party to Rome, where they established a
separate mission to Gentiles, no longer attempting to make them
Jews. He was still alive in AD 64, and his death is not
recorded."

So let's ignore JESUS in all the above.

If only Jesus has said " I AM GOD".

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 10:37-38 Say ye of him (JESUS), whom the Father (GOD) hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blaspheest; because I (JESUS) said, I AM THE SON OF GOD?

If I (Jesus) do not the works of my Father (GOD), believe me (JESUS) not.

In that last verse if Jesus hadn't have worded it so he would have been instructing people not to believe in GOD!

Why have believers chosen to ignore Jesus' precise teachings on these matters, and followed a man made construct which was invented prior to the Council of Nicea?

Debate was raging over this one issue prior to the Council and so to keep peace in Constantine's Rome they formalised it as the trinity a MAN MADE ANTI-GOD TEACHING!

You can twist Jesus...you can modify Jesus, you Pharisees can lie to yourselves...JESUS NEVER SAID IT!

JESUS said he isn't GOD and as most of you follow Trinitarian based religions you are defying Jesus and promoting Jesus wrongly as God.

REMEMBER FROM THIS DAY FORWARD THAT YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.... JESUS ISN'T COMING BACK!

Jesus has seen what little he and God mean to you and even if shown to you using his own words you will ALWAYS DEFY HIS TEACHINGS...It is that simple!

I understand why imbecilic men believe the anti-women teachings of these imbecillic men but how do women believe this rubbish.

It is an insult to Jesus, it is an insult to God, and it is an insult to all women throughout history.

NotNowNever the menstrual cycle man proves my point and follows Paul...

Acts 23:6 “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, THE SON OF A PHARISEE: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

Notice he doesn't say...I WAS a Pharisee but says "I AM A PHARISEE".

Sorry ladies you have been Pharisaically hoodwinked!

Is there life after death? You better believe it! I 'Baygon' this dirty big cockroach on the back step this avo. Dead for all money. Thirty minutes later the buggers resurrected himself and crawled away. Now that proves there is life after death. Forget all that biblical BS it all in the life of the cockroach.

Dear Paul,

I am glad that someone is finally at least back on the topic!

Now the one who was a cockroach just before 'Baygon' and the one who took that body of a cockroach 30 minutes later, are these the same one?

Even as you sleep, then wake, are you the same one who had your body in the evening; or have you in the morning just taken over his/her memories?

//Even as you sleep, then wake, are you the same one who had your body in the evening//

Yes.

Dear Tony,

«Yes.»

Seems likely and intuitive, but can you tell us how you know it? Any evidence please?

Menstrual Man NotNowNever, our resident Paulian and Pharisee, doesn't want women to know the truth...Because of your periods you are unclean forever according to Methane John and Menstrual man...

He follows Paul. ASK YOURSELVES THIS SIMPLE QUESTION.......WHERE DID JESUS TEACH WHAT PAUL TEACHES ABOUT WOMEN?...Jesus doesn't!

So where does Paul show his true Pharisee colours?

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 “LET YOUR WOMEN KEEP SILENCE in the churches: FOR IT IS NOT PERMITTED UNTO THEM TO SPEAK; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ASK THEIR HUSBANDS AT HOME: for IT IS A SHAME FOR WOMEN TO SPEAK IN CHURCH.”

So if you believe Paul - should women stop talking on religious matters and only discuss things with their husbands? Should we have hair clippers at Churches just in case they forget their head coverings?

Our menstrual expert NotNowNever thinks you are all unclean and that you defile men so he would probably appreciate your silence...lmao

WHERE DID JESUS TEACH THESE LIES? So are women who discuss religion breaking a law, a commandment...(see below)...stated by Paul!

PAUL LIES!

1 Timothy 2:11-14 “LET THE WOMEN LEARN IN SILENCE WITH ALL SUBJECTION.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, NOR TO USURP AUTHORITY OVER THE MAN, BUT TO BE IN SILENCE.

For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

And Adam was not deceived, but THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN THE TRANSGRESSION.”

Pharisee Paul was just a man! Paul through the religions continued the discrimination against women for a further 2000 years and beyond! Is discriminating against 50% of the population....ALL women)....a crime against humanity?

1 Corinthians 11:6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be SHORN OR SHAVED, let her be covered.
Pharisaical Paul is wrong again! WHERE DID JESUS TEACH THIS?

Ladies Paul "Me Tooed" you all! Why are the spineless male believers silent on this?...They must believe it is correct!

So menstrual man do women defile men should women remain SILENT?

Paul lied in 1 Timothy 2:11-14 to oppress women...“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

That is totally untrue!

Genesis 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

Here is the proof of the lie! It all revolves around the word "transgression". Adam was instructed this directly from the mouth of GOD. Adam was in transgression!

When Adam was warned Eve hadn't even been made.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

EVE...our rib...lol

Genesis 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

Paul lies and changes the story.

Romans 5:12-15 Wherefore, as by one man (ADAM) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of ADAM'S TRANSGRESSION, who is the figure of him that was to come.

YET in Paul's Pharasaical zeal oppressing women he said exactly the opposite.

1 Timothy 2:14 “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.”

So when it suits Paul(men), Adam was in transgression and when it suits him in his oppressing women, Adam wasn't deceived but Eve was in transgression.

This Paul has a very flexible grasp on accuracy. Can we trust him on anything?

Religious men love Paul because like all Pharisees they can't lose when Paul hands them all the power!

JESUS NEVER TAUGHT THIS PAULIAN RUBBISH!

NEXT PROBLEM!

God allegedly gave Moses the Ten Commandments.

JESUS, (the Son of God), gave three commandments although the first is re-stating Commandment 1 of the 10 commandments.

Mark 12:30-31 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

And the second like it, is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."
John 13:34 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another"

Are commandments laws?

Hang on Pharisee Paul, a man...(remind yourself about what Jesus thought of Pharisees in Matthew 23), says this –

1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.”

Can a man make a commandment – Answer NO! Paul certainly got a bit full of himself here. He even states you can't be spiritual without believing him! What ROT! But no-one notices...Did you know he wrote these things?

If these are commandments from the Lord as Paul claims men had better buy some shears to get those uncovered heads in Church shorn, shouldn't they?

Jesus (the Son of God) made 2 extra commandments BUT Paul says ALL his instructions are commandments! What rot!

So you see your dilemma. Everything Pharisee Paul said was a commandment from the Lord, when telling women to refer to their husbands only, and he teaches things Jesus never said.

Who do you believe Jesus or Paul? Why is Paul so atrociously hard on women when it is obviously based on a lie?

Ladies, do you think your menstruation makes you unclean and do you think you should be guilty for defiling men?

Do believer men silently blame you for God's reproduction processes and think you defile men?

Thank Paul, Moses and the men of your religion for your oppression ladies...

The real story of Jesus - a man of pivotal significance
in our history - has been obscured perpetually by myths,
and fundamentalist dogma.

In her book, "Jesus The Man," Prof. Barbara Thiering presents
her landmark research into the Dead Sea Scrolls and the
New Testament. She provides a radically different history
of the life of Christ which sweeps away the miraculous and
superstitious elements associated with the origins of
Christianity.

By presenting his life in its historical context (amidst
the social, political and religious agitations of the time),
Barbara Thiering removes elements of Christian mythology to
show that Jesus:

was born out of wedlock to a betrothed and thus officially
"virgin" woman;
-was rejected by his strict Jewish religious sect
for his actions in promoting rights for the poor, the sick,
women and gentiles.
-did not perform miracles;
-was crucified for his beliefs but did not die
on the cross and was revived later in the burial cave;
-married Mary Magdalene and fathered a family.

By stripping away the mystery from events and examining their
significance, we can discover a Jesus who is a real, human, fallible
figure. His courage, compassion and wisdom are of timeless
relevance and continue to be the wellspring of our deepest and
most powerful values.

Prof. Thiering developed her interest in religion with a
masters degree in theology, followed by a PhD in 1973. She began
teaching at the University of Sydney in 1967, joining the
School of Divinity in 1976, and lectured in Old Testament, and
Hebrew Theology. Her studies led to the Dead Sea Scrolls and a
20 year research project which has produced remarkable findings.

Prof. Barbara Thiering has been a Member of the University of
Sydney Board of Studies in Divinity, 1973 to 1991. Her book is
worth a read. The virgin birth, the miracles, and the
resurrection can be viewed in an entirely new light... They never
were literal events, nor were they myths, traditional legends,
as scholars have often held. Something really did happen, and
what happened opens up a whole new understanding of historical
Christianity.

Back to the topic of - "Is there life after death?"

The following link is worth a read:

http://mkw.melbourne.vic.gov.au/life-after-death/

Foxy,

You're not in good company championing Theiring.

"Barbara Thiering's identification of two of the main personalities of the Qumran Scrolls - the 'Teacher of Righteousness' and the 'Wicked Priest' with John the Baptist and Jesus respectively - has not convinced any professional working in the field. ... Her extensive use of the pesher technique to reinterpret the whole story of Jesus is equally unsupported by the scholarly community. ...

Despite her claims to the contrary, supporting evidence from the Scrolls is not to be found for most of her hypotheses. Having discovered the pesher technique, she uses it wholeheartedly and without discrimination. ...

As I have briefly indicated, her scholarly peers have found her arguments to be tenuous and unconvincing. Despite her assertions to the contrary, her presentation of Jesus owes far more to fictitious imagination than to historical research."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Thiering

and there's plenty more where that snippet came from.

Foxy, that lady who wrote that is considered not to be scholarly. Mind you it is an interesting concept. Recall the Roman governor asked the mob to set one man free, the thief Barabbas or Jesus of Nazareth. They chose Barabbas. Does this seem to suggest his followers were not in force in Jerusalem? He was considered a radical Jew whom the rabbis wanted to get rid of as they feared an uprising against the Romans, that they would lose. And they did, in 70 AD. Jesus left his home in Non Roman ruled Israel and traveled to Jerusalem that was under Roman Rule.

The Romans did not rule over all of Palestine. By traveling to Jerusalem, he was already treading on thin ice, as there was political problems there at the time.

//Recall the Roman governor asked the mob to set one man free, the thief Barabbas or Jesus of Nazareth. They chose Barabbas.//

According to the Bible.

Here's what really happened:

Pontius asked the mob to set one man fwee, the thief Bawabbas or Jesus of Nazawef. After some bickering and discord, they chanted as one 'Welease Bawabbas! Welease Bawabbas!'. And thus, in accordance with the custom at the time, Bawabbas was duly weleased, and Jesus of Nazawef was most bwutally cwucified whilst the wapscallion Bawabbas walked fwee to continue wobbing.

You don't have to have a degree in some form of Bible studies to see that the religions are Paulian based Pharisaical organisations following Paul and totally underming Jesus and God with their lies.

It is plain sight for even the uneducated believers to see if they want to.

In the Gospel of Phillip it states...

The companion is Mary of Magdala. Jesus loved her more than his students. He kissed her often on her face, more than all his students,
and they said, “Why do you love her more than us?”

The savior answered, saying to them, “Why do I not love you like her? If a blind man and one who sees are together in darkness, they are the same.

Why do people think the Pharisee religions painted Mary as a prostitute for all those years...To undermine her totally so people wouldn't look at her seriously.

It is a standard trick of the evil Pharisees...They do it to women all the time. Ask Menstrual man NotNowNever...lmao

But I ask another question...Why would his male disciples be jealous of this kissing? I might worship you as a male person but I don't want you kissing me...YUCK!

Believers need magic in their story book otherwise they won't be tricked...Moses used magic and then ordered every person who could out him for his trickery killed. As usual Moses said the Lord said to justify the crime!

Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Moses used his magic and lies on you starry eyed believers and you still are fooled by Moses today...lmaoLook I'm Moses...Nothing up my sleeve...but if you say there is I'll kill you...lmao

Anyone read the Secret Gospels of St.Mark. He was one of Jesus' disciples, it seems that one Bishop was asked whether they should be included in the formation of the New Testament. They weren't, for obvious reasons.

The problem with interpreting the bible is the original old Testament and also New Testament were written eons ago. About BC 600 for the Old Testament, and around 300 AD for the New Testament. The world was a different place, most religions were pagan, accept the Hebrews. Or later Judaism. The Zoroastrians were Monotheist. Anyway, try to get the Secret Gospels of Mark on line, it was there.

Prof. Barbara Thiering died in 2015. Her book "Jesus The Man,"
was a revolutionary and controversial work which became an
international Bestseller, translated into nine foreign languages.
This book was a radical challenge to the established orthodoxy
about historical Christianity, the virgin birth, the miracles,
and the Resurrection.

It predictably met with a storm of controversy. Prof. Thiering
coped with courage and strong mindedness. She had a clear vision
and would not compromise. It was a mark of her belief in the
importance of her insight over social acceptability. She wrote
many other books and she received both adulation and of course
hostility but she kept going nevertheless.

Unless you have read the book you are in no position to comment
on it or to judge its contents.

Dr Leonie Star writes:

The views of innovative thinkers add value to every society. Only
by questioning traditional beliefs can those beliefs be either
reaffirmed or modified. That the connections between the Dead
Sea Scrolls and the gospels have been either downplayed or totally
rejected by other scholars does nothing to invalidate Thiering's
argument. There is no doubt that some find difficulty in accepting
her reasoning, despite its meticulous documentation, because what
is being examined is a matter of faith as much as a scholarly
hypothesis. But to many, who recorded their reactions to the
documentary, Jesus emerges from her investigations as greater than
he appeared before.

This is Thiering's approach. She sees the fresh view of the
origins of Christianity which emerges from the integration of
diverse material as an exciting chapter in the history of
Christian thought - it subsequently forms an integral part of the
necessary and ongoing reform of the religion.

Whatever religious conclusions are reached by individuals, what
remains unimpeachable is the quality of Thiering's scholarship.
With the background to her research presented in her book in
fine detail, her hypotheses deserves the serious attention of all
those interested in a concept fundamental to western civilisation,
the origins of Christianity."

I've never read Thiering's work BUT you can see Issy attack like the Pharisees do with all women...

Don't be a woman in Christianity with an opinion and studies to back it up they'll attack you like they did Mary Magdalene...

They may not call you a prostitute but they will always invoke evil Paul to shut women up. How do women fall for these evil Paulians let alone attend their churches...

Talk about undermining your own gender and letting the male believers walk all over you. WAKE UP! Ladies!

As I said earlier the religions defamed Mary Magdalene so people wouldn't think of investigating the facts. Then you add Pharisee Paul's oppression of women to the mix and voila... almost a perfect storm against women...

Three small things and you have it.

A bunch of Bible scholars, like Josephus, who are led by the nose all around the truth by their wrong beliefs, and men like menstrual man NNN who stop thinking completely and then finally women who will believe anything and accept the oppression and away you go.

The Abrahamic religions were always anti-women and guess what if you don't believe it they will destroy you with false stories until you do...lmao If they get really upset they'll call you a prostitute and say you defile men.

Voila...Oppression 101

Paul was so bad he even taught the opposite to Jesus' wonderful teaching of the Prodigal son.

Hebrews 6:4-4 For IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Paul lied about everything!... And the lies by believers and Preachers continue....They love the money!

Seeing the cold hard facts have been laid bare for hoodwinked Paulians, let's finish up with more truths about Paul the Oppressor.

He was a thief who got caught with his hands in the collection plate...

2 Corinthians 11:8 I ROBBED OTHER CHURCHES, taking wages of them, to do you service.

All's good though, it's Paul.....He stole for your sake...lmao

And what of Paul's supposed conversion...

WHO HEARD AND SAW WHAT?

Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; BUT THEY HEARD NOT THE VOICE OF HIM THAT SPAKE TO ME.

OR

Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, HEARING A VOICE, BUT SEEING NO MAN.

Both can't be correct...BUT I know you believers will get it wrong anyway!...I have faith in you all!

I'm telling you...You have all been hoodwinked and you refuse to see it...The power of the lies you have been indoctrinated with can only be defeated by the facts that people like me show you.

Jesus hated the Pharisees...and you believers have become them...lmao

Having been down this road to enlightenment now....You guys have a simple choice...Follow your Jesus or continue denying him through your religion.

Believers should not trust Methane John of Patmos and his transparent lined streets of gold and the 144,000 gay guys for Jesus...lol

It's all rubbish and it continues in the Pharisaical discrimination of women...

And you dare call yourselves Christian...lmao

REMEMBER! You heard it here first!

Jesus isn't coming back...You guys simply aren't worthy whatsoever...lmao

Men don't come back from death and Jesus was just a man that you evil ones promoted to God...lmao

So there is still intreast in the origional topic. Glad to see that. Though I'd like to read and be part of that discussion I'll leave. There's at least one poster here that can't talk about anything else except lies and slander itowards Christianity, if there's a Christian in the conversation. He's already tried to bury the conversation topic once. He won't quit until I leave the conversation.

Good luck on the topic. There is life after death.

Hi Foxy, a real piece of wisdom by Dr Leonie Star;

"The views of innovative thinkers adds value to every society"

Unfortunately there are those in society who deride any innovative thinking, and that includes many of the religious. Those that close their minds, and rely on archaic teachings which promote falsehoods and superstitions. We have a number of those on this forum.

I liked your bit on Jesus, maybe the whole crucifixion story is a big lie. Possibly Jesus did live beyond 70 years of age and died peaceably in his bed at some retirement village for old messiah's in Rome, while watching a re-run of 'Bubba Ho-Tep' or possibly the 'Life of Brian'.

Something rarely mentioned, besides the accepted Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, there are numerous other Gospels hidden away by the Catholic Church in Rome. These include text by Thomas, Philip, James, even Judas and Mary among others.

"In a pastoral letter of AD 367, Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria specified 27 books to be read in churches. This list eventually came to be generally accepted as the canon of the New Testament, although the matter was not finally settled until the fifth or sixth century, and even then was not accepted by all."

"The four familiar gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, were the specific gospels of specific factions. For example we know that the Ebionites used Matthew, certain Gnostics used Mark, the Marcionites used a form of Luke, and the Valentinians used John2. In some cases gospels may well have been written by, and for such factions."

Interesting the origins of the Gospels, they certainly were not written by anyone directly associated with Jesus.

Again we have the speculators and mockers voicing their opinions. Because it suits their personal agenda. I have all the contemporary writings to the OT from 600 BC, the Dead Sea scrolls, official letters from Rome, Josephus, Philo, Pliny and Church fathers to the fourth Century AD. In these there are quotes given by writers in the second century AD from NT documents. Luke a converted Gentile and reputable Doctor in the second century using existing script compiled a full account of the life and death of Jesus from birth to death, and disappearance. The three eye witnesses of Jesus Matthew, Mark and John have not collaborated on the story. They are forensic accounts of what they heard and witnessed, hence the small discrepancies in minor details, and different accounts. No account has Jesus married to Mary Magdalene, that is a modern story line of a movie, and doctoring of scripts.

So Josephus if it wasn't written down on the papers you have it can't be true? Is that your logic? Is that your educated wisdom? You don't know religions very well do you...lmao

Can you find the papers in the Churches that covered up child abuse?... Oh it wasn't written down so it can't be true?

Maybe the marriage was written down and kept from us by the religions as part as the oppression of women system within Christianity.

Was Mary undermined much by being called a prostitute for all those years? Is Christianity, sorry Paulianity dominated by men and does it oppress women?

DO RELIGIONS HAVE A HISTORY OF COVERING THINGS UP? WAKE UP!

The predominant Paulian Church in the early years became Catholic... Notice how men run the Catholic Church? Have they ever covered up anything for their own gain?

See how your belief gets in the way for your scholarship Josephus? You unscientifically and unscholarly discount the marriage totally because you haven't seen the document.

You haven't seen my birth certificate but I was born...lmao

So why were the disciples jealous of the way Jesus kissed Mary Josephus?

NNN before you go you still didn't answer the questions after being shown all the evidence honestly...

Is Jesus God?

Do you think that women are unclean during their periods and that they defile men?

They're easy questions so why are you just too scared to answer?

Pharisaical Paulians never answer the questions, they never accept the evidence when shown to them clearly and they always run away sulking when they are defeated by facts.

Please don't blame me when the Bible proves you 100% wrong...I didn't write it...lmao

Dear Paul,

Thank You for your comments. Prof. Barbara Thiering did not
intend to demean Jesus or Christianity. In her studies of the
Scrolls over a period of 20 years she became aware that the
gospels were written deliberately in a form containing two
levels of meaning: the surface level provides a simplified
and often symbolic description designed to satisfy those
who needed the supernatural as an element of their faith; and
the second level, concealed within, that depicted the actual
events and their real significance. The surface stories and
parables of the New Testament provide one account - yet the
real history of the life of Jesus is to be found beneath.

By stripping away the mystery from events and examining their
significance, we can discover a Jesus who is a real, human,
fallible figure. His courage, compassion and wisdom are of
timeless relevance and continues to be the wellspring of our
deepest and most powerful values.

In any case I do not wish to argue with anyone here on this
topic. I merely tried to broaden the discussion, but I can
see that it's not going to serve any productive purpose.

See you on another discussion.

The truth is always productive Foxy... Sorry that you don't realise that.

You were attacked immediately on Theiring's work that is what these people do.

I'm sorry that the truth makes so many people uncomfortable...I'm sorry that quoting the exact verses from the Bible upsets people.

So what do people want? The truth or more lies from the money stealing machine that is religion?

I was told the most horrific lies by believers when I was young and that manipulated my thinking. A girlfriend gave me a Bible, at my request, for my birthday and I committed the crime of the century..I read it!

I realised that religions and the religious are liars!

Sorry to be so truthful but it is the truth.

Luther broke away from the Catholics because of the money making lies. He broke away with his 95 theses after seeing Rome and the selling of indulgences by Pope Leo X and his corrupt followers to the families of people who were already dead, to fund the rebuilding of St. Peter's Basilica.

This happened on October 31 1517...They wanted him dead after that.

Even though Luther wanted the Bible to be followed properly he missed everything also. Once again a Bible scholar who failed at scholarship... It's almost universal.

So I come along and show the actual Chapter and Verse and what the Bible actually says.

OMG! I am such a terrible person... OMG! let the liars and indoctrinators rule!

No-one has ever seen most of the verses I show because religion blinds them totally. On all the internet I have never seen anyone go into the detail that I do.

Sorry if the truth offends...Be offended by religious lies...Not the truth!

AMAZING!

Foxy and Opine 2; Re I heard it from the author of The Seventh Scroll. I attended a lecture and book sale of his book. He was Jewish. He just said that he had researched his book, and quite honestly I can't remember the story line, I loaned the book and never got it back.

But I will get her book, as it is an interesting concept, that I have often wondered could be alternative ending to the Jesus story. If you shake the tree of knowledge with a blasphemous concept, one can expect other scholars and authors will take you on. And the religious bodies. But the period in which he lived was brutal, the Romans were brutal, and somehow I have a feeling that she is wrong. All Jesus' followers were eventually killed including St.Peter and St.Paul. Logically if Jesus' was alive, don't you think he would have also taken up the baton, and joined them. No - It would be too dangerous. I think I heard he ended up in Egypt. Doubt it, it was a hostile place too.

The author I spoke too, said there would be a big change in religion and the Catholic church in the next two years. Well it never happened.

Bush Bunny, I have Orthodox Jewish relations they invent stories to discredit the Jesus narrative. Letters written by Caesar to Pontius Pilate berate him for putting to death an innocent man. Pilate later committed suicide when threatened with arrest from Rome. Read the letters of Caesar to Pilate. Op2, you have nothing positive to offer to society, except misrepresentation and your own imagined self image. You are far from a reliable source of understanding and authority on theology.

Me blasphemous? It's the religions who undermine God totally and throw the blasphemous word around at others.

Their whole system is a blasphemy.

They are the ones lying about the flood that never happened and accusing God of drowning every baby and child on the planet...NOT ME!

They are ones lying about God murdering all the innocent babies, children and babes still in the womb in the Passover that never happened...Not me!

It is them who

- would rather believe the Psychopaths, Manic depressives and liars that wrote the Bible... Not me!

- who have allowed the persecition and oppression of women based on idiots Moses and Paul that still continue today...Not me!

- who have raised the Psychopathic murderous so called Bible heroes to
that status ignoring the facts that are in plain sight in the Bible....Not me!

- believe and sell the lies that GOD condoned of and sometimes committed infanticide, rape, murder, animal and human sacrifice, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, torture, incest, Mosaic Law - (Sharia Law), stoning, slavery , oppression of women and other atrocities!

- who promoted Jesus to God...Not me!

See the proof is in what they believe...They are the blasphemers and defilers of Jesus' teachings. It is them who are the Pharisees! Not me!

My source document is The Bible...It proves them to be liars!

You will note I post Chapter and Verse to prove what I am saying is correct. They don't!

Sadly for them my Bible knowledge is superior to theirs and I will prove them wrong just about every time.

Bible scholars aren't true scholars...They are usually indoctrinated souls trying to prove their religions correct despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I am showing that evidence loudly and they can't take it...lmao

Aint proper Bible study fun?...lmao

Josephus, I agree, Most Jews discredit the Jesus story because information in the New Testament is incorrect. Jews have suffered for centuries at the hands of the Muslims and Christians. And yet Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew. He was one of theirs, and they dispute his memory of the second coming and he was the Jews messiah.

Anyway, it is interesting. My problem with religion period, is the fundamentalists, Scientology, Heavens Gate, Waco or the Davidians. And the new crackpot religions in the Bible belt of America. Mormons, J.W. Anglicans and Roman Catholic are the oldest, Salvation Army, Uniting Churches, and the New Community Churches that are springing up in the US.

But the Bible is not a good reflection of truth or history. Nor is it meant to be, or that is what the R.C say. Nor a science book.

I have little problem with established churches I did not mean to trade them off with the Scientologists, etc. Of course child abuse is not acceptable.

Josephus shouldn't you have just turned the other cheek? You failed...lmao

I know so much more than you Josephus...You aren't going to meet Jesus because you have blasphemed against God and Jesus your entire life with your beliefs. I pity you really!...lmao

So telling the truth and showing the actual verses doesn't provide any benefit to society but believing and spreading the lies that you do does?

See your religion has given you such a warped sense of morality...

So tell me Josephus...

Is Jesus God?

Are women unclean during their periods and do they defile men when they sleep with them?

Are you brave enough to answer?

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE Jesus is lying in

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD.

or

WAS JESUS LYING HERE?

John 5:37 Jesus says "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. YE HAVE NEVER HEARD HIS VOICE AT ANY TIME, NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE."

Jesus states - No-one has seen GOD and yet Jesus/GOD was sitting in front of them...lmao

WAS JESUS LYING IN THE LORD'S PRAYER saying

Öur Father, Who art in heaven?

You believe God is in front of them teaching the prayer...lmao

WAS JOHN LYING HERE?

John 1:18 NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

That would include Moses and all the other liars...

Back to Bible Kindergarten for you...lmao

Proper Bible study must really upset your Pharisaical ways Josephus...lol

Op2, you are a poor soul, expecting others to believe you have found the answers. Jesus as human was not the type of God you imagine him. He was human [see Philippians 2: 5 - 11]. God is spirit, not flesh and bone. Our spirit is a reflection of the nature of the God we each personally believe. Our God is revealed by our character, attitudes, actions and the wisdom or lack thereof we apply to life and living in community. Jesus spirit reflected the image of God. Jesus never called anyone ceremonially unclean; that was a practise of Essenes, Zealots and Orthodox Jews. He touched to heal lepers and women with diseases. It is a pity you do not read the New Testament to see the claims made. GOD IS SPIRIT - revealed in our Universe!

Dear OP2,

I don't believe that any discussion should have the
attitude that "It's either my way or the highway!"
And that is why I feel that with that sort of an
attitude nothing productive can result. I have
no intention of playing umpire between competing
beliefs. Many people are convinced that theirs is
the one true faith and that all others are misguided,
superstitious, even wicked. Mr Thwackum, a character
in Henry Fielding's novel "Tom Jones," declares,
"When I mention religion, I mean the Christian
religion and not only the Christian religion, but
the Protestant religion; and not only the Protestant
religion, but the Church of England."

Many people are like Mr Thwackum, when they mention
religion, they have their own in mind.

Opposing viewpoints often turn into issues of right
and wrong because neither side is willing to
compromise their views. One has to be mentally
flexible to be able to move past this and for many
people that's difficult to do.

Once you can give up the righteousness of your
viewpoint and actually listen to what the other
person is saying (provided they're not being insulting)
then the closer you will be to having a collaborative
discussion.

However, with the tone of what's taking place here, I
can't see that happening - and I'm not interested in
arguments or insults.

Cheers.

Josephus...So we just want to play baby Jesus games again.

Mt. 5:17-18 “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished”.

Well I'm still here on Earth even though you may be in fairyland...lol

So now study the laws in Leviticus 15:19-33

Lev 15:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and to Aaron, saying,

Lev 15:30 The priest will offer one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. Through this process, the priest will purify her before the LORD for the CEREMONIAL IMPURITY caused by her bleeding.

So Jesus is saying that women are ceremonially unclean because he says the laws still apply...OOPS!

Why did you miss this? Was it deliberate?

OOPS! You are wrong again!

It's a pity you lie continually on every issue.

Your Catholic brothers sure believe Jesus is God...Are you an heretic?...lmao

http://www.catholic.org/clife/jesus/webelieve.php

I quote "Jesus Christ is truly God"... Sorry to burst your bubble, I'm sure you said you were a catholic somewhere.

That's why you guys say "God the father, God the Son, God the holy spirit" God the Father isn't spirit...

You are a wild heretic aren't you...lmao

Back to Bible Kindergarten again Josephus...

You have to stop rewriting the Bible just to try and win an argument.

I am teaching you so much...Can I send you an invoice?...lmao

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

OPPRESSING MEN BELIEVE THIS, BUT WHY WOULD WOMEN BELIEVE THESE LIES?

Women are the backbone of their churches and yet they are treated like 5th class citizens by those religions...

Not 1 single woman is a member of the 144,000!

According to Methane John and male believers women aren't worthy and don’t qualify! How outrageous!

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads

But wait it gets worse! MUCH WORSE!

Revelations 14:4 These are they which WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Well Josephus do women defile men? Have you been defiled by your wife Josephus?

Why Jesus? Are male virgins free from sin? It all sounds a bit gay to me...lmao

What an outrageous, offensive verse is Revelations 14:4!

That word defiled just doesn't mean sex... It is far worse than that.

It is taken from the Greek word molyno meaning to pollute, stain, contaminate.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...3435&t=KJV

How outrageous and offensive? Polluting, staining contaminating women....It's all your fault ladies!

Ladies, why do you accept these lies that continually malign you all as a gender? You aren't qualified to be one of the 144,000 EVER?

Why do Mad Moses,Paul the Oppressor and believers hold women in such low regard, and falsely believe GOD does also!

So men ...Are your wives and girlfriends worthy of the being one of the 144,000 or are they too defiled to be anything but second rate citizens in your minds?

TOP EFFORT!

GOD IS NOTHING LIKE THIS! PLEASE DON’T BELIEVE THESE RUBBISH VERSES!

//Sadly for them my Bible knowledge is superior to theirs and I will prove them wrong just about every time.//

//On all the internet I have never seen anyone go into the detail that I do.//

//I know so much more than you//

//I am teaching you so much//

The Trump is strong in Op2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R42mFx3_ss

Oh Toni... That was really pathetic... No Trump here... I am just stirring the pot with these zealots...lmao

So seeing Josephus has just learnt that Jesus didn't change ANY OF THE OPPRESSIVE LAWS, (not one jot or tittle), AGAINST WOMEN, we have had a major breakthrough in his Bible scholarship...He learnt something!...lmao

He also learnt that Catholics and all of the trinitarian religions follow the Catholics on the Trinity and believe "JESUS IS GOD" and are ALL WRONG!

He was wrong again!

All those years of crossing himself saying "God the Father, God the Son & God the Holy Spirit" had numbed his brain regarding the Trinity.

In his desperation to be correct just once, he dashed off to Paul again, to get his Pharisaical dose of learning in Philippians 2: 5 - 11, proving my point again. Josephus is a Pharisee. He won't quote Jesus very often!

So what did Paul say...

Phillipians 2:5-6 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Who, being in the form of God, THOUGHT IT NOT ROBBERY TO BE EQUAL WITH GOD:

Jesus said these things refusing to say he was equal

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS GOD.

AND

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I.

Sop once again Paul the Pharisee is wrong and has tricked Josephus into being WRONG!

Paulians like Josephus just don't study properly and rely on Paul the Pharisee who is always wrong!

Have you ever quoted Jesus Josephus?...lmao

//Oh Toni... That was really pathetic//

Is it fake news, because you're, like, really smart and a very stable genius?

With Pharisaical Paulians, it doen't matter how many times you show what Jesus said on issues, they always abandon Jesus, the son of God/God, running back to a men like Paul for their explanations.

It's amazing to watch over and over again and they just don't get it!

Blinded by Paulian Pharisaical beliefs and religions!

So what does the Bible say about the afterlife? We all know that all the Pharisaical would be in hell if hell existed for defying Jesus/God but what are the positives...lmao

If you believe Paul, Moses and Methane John women won't be amongst the 144,000 because they are defilers...Can it get any more anti-women than that...but women still go to church...lmao

Remember what Jesus said

Matthwt. 5:17-18 “Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets; I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, TILL HEAVEN AND EARTH PASS AWAY, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass away from the law, till all things be accomplished”.

So women are still low life in heaven under the law...Sounds great ladies! IT'S WRONG! but that's what your Bible says! Nothing to look forward to for the women...lol

And things won't change until heaven and Earth pass away...OOPS!

But for you Pharisees it is also a disaster...

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Maybe you should all stop relying on Paul...who shouted...

Acts 23:6 “But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I AM A PHARISEE, THE SON OF A PHARISEE: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.”

Notice he doesn't say...I WAS a Pharisee but says "I AM A PHARISEE".

So who do you really believe & follow Jesus or Paul who your religions have been based on?

Can Jesus make it any more obvious!

Oh come folks, several points here. There was a split between the Western Christianity and the Pope, and the Eastern Orthodox Christians (Greek and Russian) I have to rack my brain because I studied it years ago at Uni. One side said Jesus was divine, and the other believed he was human with divine qualities. One believed a priest was the gateway to God and Jesus, but the orthodox saw icons and the person themselves that could find a path to God and Jesus.

Why does the argument always blame Jesus. I assure you he was a Jew and died a Jew, so was St.Paul, and for the first couple of hundred years until Constantine came along, the so called Christians were a faction from the Jewish faith. The Jews didn't like them either, because they were blamed for burning down pagan temples in Rome, and at one time Nero blamed them for burning down Rome.

During the first century, the world was in chaos. Dog eat Dog, and plenty of abuse of children and women. In the Arab world, women had the same status as dogs, until Mohammad came along, and they were protected rather than oppressed. Different now of course.

The plight of the poor was stay alive as long as one can, you would be lucky if you lived beyond 40. Slaves and the infirm etc., no hope in Palestine, you were better off in Rome where you could buy your freedom eventually. So Jesus the Jew brought some comfort to those dispossessed and poor. Blame the pious who wrote down the Hebrew bible, and those that wrote the books in the New Testaments. Jesus was a radical and brilliant scholar, but he was feared. Not only by the Jewish elders and priests but by the Romans.

They also believed in miracles, magic, demons, and life after death. And as we know now, that is not new, been there since pagan religions began, and started burying their dead. 250,000 years ago.

Op2, It is a pity you do not read or understand context, but just cherry pick sentences in isolation. Revelations 14:4 is in a context of Temple prostitutes, and false religion; not ones wife. The relationship of a man to his wife does not defile one. Accepting false religion especially in context that gratification of sexual desires can be worship to a female goddess at Temple. The Essene community abstained from all sexual relations because they lived in caves in the desert, see the Dead sea scrolls. Some of Jesus disciples were Essene sympathizers and was the reason they objected to his contact with women. John 4: 27,

I'm getting rather bored with this format and subject. You can argue until the cows come home. Is there life after death. I hope so, if not well I've had my day, got grandchildren, and two sons I hope live after me. Two predeceased me. So - don't take the ancient writings to fit in with the 21st century. Especially the Hebrew bible or old testament. But as some scholars say, Jesus was the sacrificial lamb, who was a Jew and died a Jew. He wasn't born in Bethlehem, and was a radical Jew who pissed people off. Did he survive death, we can't say, but ancient religions believe we do in spirit. Certainly his memory has.

Oh Josephus you wouldn't know context if you fell over it. Did you study at a Catholic University, taught by Catholic lecturers using Catholic source materials?...lol No wonder you don't get it...lmao

The whole Bible is an insult to women...and the oppression is inbuilt into your religion especially that won't allow women into the priesthood and who cover up crimes.

All your Essene stuff is fun but the oppression of women is far more than that simplistic view.

You can slip the word prostitute in if you want to be dishonest but that';s not what the verse says...

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Nope no prostitutes there...Just the word women! So from now on should we assume prostitute when the word woman is used... You are simply ill-informed and illogical!

The whole of Revelation is a joke from Methane John...Or would you like me to say, it is all true and lie like you and the other loons do showing where the Catholic Church is mentioned throughout? It aint correct and it sure aint pretty but I can if you keep changing words to suit yourself.

I have shown some of the verses where the Oppression of Women by the Pharisees like yourself throughout this thread and you are just trying to divert people from the truth.

No wonder your religion called Mary Magdalene a prostitute up until recently... You obviously have a problem with women!

The Bible's and Churches attitude to women is obscene not Essene...lmao Hey that was a good joke...lmao

I'll remember for the future when you are mentioning the word woman or women from the Bible you mean Temple prostitute...

You need a lie down...lmao

Dear Bush bunny,

I've come to realise that true religion is internal
not external. The spirit within us cannot be blamed
for the blasphemies carried out in its name. What some
have done in the name of religion, projecting their
neuroses, even perpetrating evil on the world, does not
make religion as a mystical phenomenon invalid.

Organized religions have become, in many cases, as calcified
as other institutions that form the structure of our modern
world. That's why they are rejected by some people. Our
religious institutions have far too often become handmaidens
of the status quo. However religious institutions, as such are
not the only arbiters of religious experience. They don't
own the Truth, for Truth can't be owned. Nor should they think
they hold some franchise on our spiritual life. They are
consultants and frameworks, but they are not God Himself. We
should not confuse the path with the destination.

Many people have turned away from religion. I don't like what
organized religion has done to the world. However, I found
that life without a conscious awareness of God was difficult.

Organised religion will have to step up to bat,
religiously, or it will wither away.

I'm still on my own road of
discovery. Each of us goes through transitions and transformations
The important thing is that we acknowledge them and learn
from them.

I wish you All The Best.

Op2

Are you 'lmao' as you claim
or speaking through it?

Gamaliel's interview with Mary around 50 AD. Remember Gamaliel is a Jewish teacher in Jerusalem. From the text on Jesus as a young man. "Indeed, she said he takes so little interest in the things of the world and the great questions of the day, they were beginning to despair of his ever amounting to much, much less be a king, as the angel said he would be; if so, he would have to act very differently from what he was acting at that time. I told her that the Jewish doctors contended that the amorous disposition is peculiar to the male. I asked her if she had ever seen in the private life of Jesus any signs of such disposition. She said she had not. I asked if she saw in him any particular fondness for female society. She said she had not; if anything, rather the contrary ; that the young bethaul (the word in the Hebrew for young women) were all very fond of him, and were always seeking his society, and yet he seemed to care nothing for them ; and if they appeared too fond of him, he treated them almost with scorn. He will often get up and leave them, and wander away and spend his time in meditation and prayer. He is a perfect ascetic in his life. 'When I see how the people like to be with him, and ask him questions, and seem to take such delight with his answers both men and women it almost vexes me".

How did the Jewish Hierarchy feel about Jesus? THE ARCHKO VOLUME. REPORT OF CAIAPHAS. He taught the eternity of God's laws, and promises in tlie super-importance of the humanitarian over the ritual laws and doctrines, but I do not think he wished to abolish the latter, or even the traditional laws, but merely to supersede them by a higher life. The natural result of all this was that he disregarded the laws of Levitical cleanness, which were considered so important by the Shammaites and Essenes, and also by the Hillelites. This is the point where division commenced, and the breach grew wider and wider until an insurrection must have been the result. He so far cut himself loose from the Jews that he ate with unclean sinners, publicans, and lepers, and permitted harlots to touch him, while his disciples went so far as to eat their meals without washing themselves. Furthermore, he looked upon the whole of the Levitical institutions, temples, sacrifices, and priesthood included, as no longer necessary and not worth the life of the animal. This was certainly the opinion of the Hillelites. Jesus, it seems, found in this Hillelite school a party furnished to hand, ready to take up with his heresy (and a large party they are, almost sufficient to divide the whole Jewish commonwealth). They taught the repentance of sin, the practice of benevolence and charity, the education of the young, and good-will toward mankind, as possessing much more moral worth than all the Levitical cleanness, or compliance with the whole moral law given to us by our God to govern us. His preaching was of the parabolic style. He would rely on a text of scripture, for he seemed to hold the scriptures in high veneration, so his preaching was on the midrash style of the scribes a maxim expressed in the style of Solon or of Sirach's son.

Josephus, you do know that John the Baptist, baptized Jews, because he said the end of the world was coming, and repent by being cleansed of your sins. It is a Jewish practice. Jesus was never baptized as a Christian.

Bush Bunny, I'm not sure if I ever mentioned Jesus baptism? what you say is true. John had been raised in the Essene community and purity was paramount in their view of the kingdom. Jesus praised John but considered him least in the Kingdom, as Jesus view of the kingdom included Gentiles. At the beginning and end of his mission he speaks of Gentiles. I am currently reading records from Roman government sources and Jewish sources as you can see extracts above.

To Bush Bunny. I don't recal John the Baptist preaching that the end of the world is near. What he seemed to preach, (from the limited text we have of him) is to repent because the Kingdom of Heaven is near.

What's the difference you might ask? Essentially the Jewish understanding and hope is that the masaiah would come and restore Israel to it's glory. Not be under rule of other kingdoms, passed down from one ruling empire to another. John preached that the Kingdom was near.

This might be a possible explaination why early in Jesus's ministry, John endorsed Jesus proclaiming him to be the "God's chosen One." And "The Lamb of God who takes the sin away from the world." But later some of John's disciples came to ask Jesus if he really was the Masaiah or if they should wait for someone else.

After a while of not conquering Roman rule, John may have been under the same impression that other Jews were aboutvJesus and the Kingdom of Heaven.

Just an FYI, to clear up any confusion.

It depends on what version you read, and what the Jews have to say about it. Good DVDs available, where there are spokespersons from many faiths. Including Muslim.

To Bush Bunny.

You say "It depends." I disagree. It is either true or not true. If the Jews today or the written account of Jews back then through history can confirm or correct with is true, then we should accept it as such. From what I've come to understand unless the Jews become Christian, and accept Jesus as the Masaiah, then they are still waiting for a masaiah to come. But I don't know of anything to say John the Baptist was preaching the end of the world. Nor or any Jewish thought that runs into that kind of thinking. If Jewish perspective is waiting for the "end times" or the end of the world in something other manner, then maybe we can consider your view of John the Baptist as something to consider.

"It depends" isn't always a bad answer. But in this case, it seems like a cop out to not seek the truth.

NNN - Josephus, it depends on whose version is considered. If you depend on your biblical version or dogma what makes it right. Jews are not waiting for the end of the world, but centuries ago, being under occupation by the pagan Romans, it was the end of the world as they knew it. Wake up. I mean the Davidians in WACO, Texas, sponsored by the SDA American church, thought the end of the world was nigh, and their leader was the Messiah, and they would survive and be the new people while others and other religions perished. Well they did, tragically they thought there leader had miraculous powers and was the 'lamb of God' while he was committing statutory rape with young under age girls. Heavens Gate, Jones town. I just feel I can not understand such blind faith with these so called religious leaders. Sorry, it depends on who is telling the story. It's the singer not the song.

If Jesus is the Messiah Or even God... then the universal pointer to that is the truth in their words, if even they are their words.

Moses and the other nutjobs who imagined up the Bible made up the lies you guys believe are from God just to justify their evil ways. It's a shame on you that you believe these crazies...but you do!

The more likely explanation for the virgin birth rubbish (lol) is that Joseph got Mary pregnant and concocted the story to cover up the crime. Mary could have been stoned to death for being unmarried and in that condition. This is simple stuff! What better than an angel coming to Mary and it being divine intervention...lmao

Jesus either lied quite a deal or simply didn't know the truth but you guys are too scared to accept it.

He never taught about bacteria, viruses and chemical imbalances causing brain problems because he simply didn't know about these things.

He blamed demons, satan or evil spirits because that was the depth of knowledge at the time.

Furthermore even though hell doesn't exist he tried to scare [people using hellfire and damnation and threats. Gnashing your teethe for eternity in the sulphur lakes of hell is a pretty big threat.

I know you guys love fairy stories but you are allowed to think!

So as hell and Satan don't exist, and Jesus mentioned them in his false justifications, he either is lying or he didn't know much about superstitious rubbish.

So what is it is Jesus deliberately and intentionally lying and refusing to tell the truth OR didn't he know about these things?

You guys still believe in talking snakes but you know they don't exist. You consider yourselves smart enough to know that don't you?

Your positions are infantile bordering on the insane...

There are so many flaws in your Bible and yet you just totally ignore them because your superstitions are more powerful than you brains.

It's time for people to wake up! Talking snakes and virgin births... next you'll believe in the rapture...lmao

Opinionated. It's so good that your back. For a moment I though we could be free from your slander and lies. Possibly even go back to the original topic. No? Aw well you know what they say about hopes and wishes. ... You've had some concerns about my answers before. So here is a short reply. Concerning the Trinity, I gave you my answer. One that you've ignored and made up your own answer that was credited to me. ENOUGH with your ongoing lies and slander to suit yourself. Is anything you say based on truth? Or do you make everything up as you go? Did any of the experiences you say happen to you really happen or have you lied about those as well? You call them amazing, and I'm sure to you they are ( if they are true). But to me, there are many amazing stories in people's lives, and they are often unnoticed and overshadowed by someone else bragging about their "amazing" experience. So I disagreed. It is unique. It is unlike any other story I've heard because none that I know of have an agreement between multiple people. But is it true? Is anything you say anything but what comes out of your imagination? Just as your criticisms on Christianity have no merit outside of the stories you make up with nothing creditable to replace what was written; it might be the same with your "experiences." That would definitely explain how you can have those experiences and still not know that an afterlife (of some kind) exists. Because the lies don't suit you any more, so you discard them.

To Bush Bunny. My name is not NNN, nor is that an abbreviation of my name. Make note because serves no purpose to be insulting and because detail matter. With regard to your quarry of John's preaching, and to the Jews understanding. These things are not a matter of "it depends" any more then asking how Australia feels about same sex marriage. There was a poll about that recently right? A measure to say what is supported what isn't any how much of the population represents each. If you were asked how Australia feels about SSM the answer wouldn't be "it depends" because there is an answer and it was recently sought through a vote. In the same way, the views of Jews in the time of Jesus don't depend on anything except what was really true. If we have any means to know what those views were (such as from historians, Jewish understanding and Jewish texts) then we can have an answer for that question. But the answer is not "it depends."

Look into it yourself if you're interested, see if the information you find out comes to the same conclusions I've found. Israel was waiting for a savior to save them out of Roman oppression, but God gave them a promise that He's so far kept. He will not abandon them or let them die off. And through out history Israel through the Jewish people have not disappeared even though they've been dispersed throughout the world and until recently never had a home of their own. Therefore they weren't then nor are they now looking for a Savior at the end of the world as the false prophets and preachers you've mentioned have said that they were. The Jews were (and still are) waiting for a messiah to deliver Israel and restore them. Don't take my word for it, and don't buy into the "it depends" when considering what's true and what isn't. If it matters to you look into it yourself. And pay attention to the details, because the details matter.

To anyone else who is still interested in the topic of life after death. I will share one more experience. When I was young, I had a head injury and went into a coma for two weeks. During that time, doctors kept me under their care while my parents and the communities that they knew had me prayed for me to come out of the coma. My experience is a short dream that I had. It was my earliest memory, and basically is my parents walking into a white room, picking me up from a white bed and carrying me out of the dream scene. I then woke up. To me this dream is God's way of saying He gave me back to my parents, and is the beginning of my interests of people's experiences of an afterlife.

I wish there were more here to share when their family passed on how they were connected with that person briefly to then know that that person is ok now. There are other kinds of experiences. Rare NDEs experiences, experiences in comas, people weeks before they die seeing someone who had passed away give them company and comfort, and many more. These are not so rare occurrences that we should be blind to a reality that something exists for us after we die. Even if we don't know what that after life will be like, we can know that there is something. Doubt my experience if you like. But it is among many other experiences that people have concerning an afterlife. Something is there for us after we pass on.

//My experience is a short dream that I had.//

Oh Gods, we're backing to banging this stupid drum again are we?

I thought we had already established through examples of my dreams that dreams do not necessarily involve any bearing upon objective reality, including dreams of deceased family members.

Do you have any new compelling evidence to suggest otherwise?

Not Now Never...You shouted ENOUGH with such authority...lmao You brutal forceful man you...lmao

I don't ignore you..I simply spend as much time as I can afford on someone like you....ZERO...lol

It's funny that I quote exact Chapter and Verse to prove what I say and yet you make these grand assertions from a position of believing in talking snakes, devils and demons. OUCH! I don't know how I can stand such a huge pressure from someone so superstitious as you.

Fairytales are just fairy tales you know. You need to study more.

Yep everything I have said happened to me...shock horror...I tell the truth. I have explained everything to you, it is you who just can't stop linking things to your talkative snake religion...lmao

I don't believe in fairytales so where do you go now?

You have to calm down NNN you don't make any sense because your believer base has been seriously fooled by too much religion and not enough thinking.

So are you waiting for the rapture?...lmao

I've just lost my post. But we are getting no where. We aren't out to stop people believing in the Holier than Thou concept. They hang on to their beliefs however weird and fanciful, because as Karl Marx relayed, 'Religion is an opiate of the people' People turn to religion because they fear there is no life after death. They believe Jesus will return to save them and burn all the non believers in hell. Personally I have read the Hebrew Bible, and I believe in what Dawkin's said, 'The worst horror story ever told'. But it made people centuries ago, mainly Jews, that they had to adhere to a strict rule of living their lives. Women were oppressed, well they were everywhere.

Religious conflict is behind a lot of wars, genocides, and you are either with them or against them.

People couldn't read, the Bible was written laboriously by monks. It's contents or interpretation conveyed to them by priests. And if you want to believe in what is written, you are only living in a make believe world, where the meek will inherit the earth. Well they won't, the cultures are ruled by the rich and powerful, and Australians do have welfare. Just enough to stop you starving. We are educated now, well I am, and I do not put any faith into a old book that has been translated and rewritten many times, adopted from the ancient Jews, and see anything that relates to present day, and true history. Would you believe in a book that told how to turn lead into gold.

People turned to religion when things are turning bad, but not in the 21st Century. Jesus was a Jew, and died a Jew, not a Christian. Governments go along with religious institutions, especially in America and the Bible belt. It suits their purpose, it controls the mob. So they can get on with their work of not revealing the truth of reality to other humans who are just neo-serfs. Here endeth the lesson, lol.

Religion gives people false hope in many ways, but if it gives them contentment with their lot, it is a good thing. Life is not easier, and many dreams not fulfilled. There is tragedy, and we have to adapt. If a priest or cleric can give you support in a time of mourning or desperation. Well let them, because our so called democratic government won't.

Firstly religious wars are definitely a terrible thing because they are simply based on untruths and both sides amazingly claim to have God on their side.

However, major disagreements shouldn't stop the truth being told.

That is why I always quote Chapter and Verse because it proves what I am saying is accurate.

Afterall it is the believers who believe God drowned every innocent baby babe still in the womb and child in the flood that never happened...NOT ME!

It is believers who believe God killed all the innocent firstborn babies, and children of all who loved in Egypt at the time except those who had the blood above their doors in the Passover that never happened... NOT ME!

Believers should STOP denigrating God with the lies they believe and spread about God. I know it is a complex thought and rare for you but it is you whop believes all the horror stories against God...NOT ME!

It's not like they follow Jesus or God anyway but in their heads they think they do....lmao

So it would be hard for me to be in a religious war when I am not religious...Just honest about what the Bible says.

That's what gets up NNN's nose he knows I will be proven right and he just can't take it.

His redfining of the Trinity was just another example of believers trying to twist things to justify the fact that they are wrong...lol

It doesn't bother me NNN...You can make up extra pieces to your fairytale any time you like...lol

One thing I didn't say regarding the supposed virgin birth was that Joseph may have been a good man who took on Mary in her pregnant state to protect her. Saying that she was pregnant by God may have been his way of protecting her from the laws against women that may have had her stoned to death.

Just know that if there is life after death you really can't believe Methane John's version because it is a load of codswallop. 144,000 virgin males...lmao What next!

Opine2, 144 virgin males, not heard that one before, lol.

What you haven't studied the lunacy of Revelation as dreamed up by John of Patmos on his methane highs?

All the loony religious love that story...It gives the men power to think that men rule and women only defile men.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand (144,000), having his Father's name written in their foreheads

Revelations 14:4 These are they which WERE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Here look at it again...I have put it in the thread previously.

The believers will always try to manipulate this like Josephus did earlier but their position never holds up to scrutiny or proper study. Superstitions often fail those tests...lol

Again, that is why I deal with this topic of an afterlife the way I do.

These guys will run with people's experience modifying the evidence and the words used by people to manipulate everything to justify their religious beliefs.

You may have missed it earlier when I corrected NotNowNever earlier here - http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=8181#254558

Trust me I have been down this road many times and they just can't be trusted with information.

That's why they can't be trusted with the Bible... They get it all wrong but crow that they know something when they don't!...lmao

More people follow the Zodiac signs in our society than recognised religion yet we do not have atheists rants about such shysters charges to blind faith. Every popular magazine also gives direction on life matters based on star signs.

I know people who take the stars seriously. But I don't approve of that either or clairvoyants. It is an ancient belief, older than some religions. I am not a atheist, but I disprove of bible punchers. Those that push and repeat parts of the bible (which bible) and believe in the second coming and judgement day. I am a deist. Look it up.

It is relatively easy to be a harbinger of doom. But these people that predict the end of the world, or kill themselves to reach a spaceship on a comet, believe they are the messiah, or that Thetans inhabit our body, they are cracked, dangerous and terrorists to me.

Have a good day.

Josephus,

No, only a small percentage of people take astrology seriously.

<<More people follow the Zodiac signs in our society than recognised religion yet we do not have atheists rants about such shysters charges to blind faith.>>

Perhaps that because these people aren't telling others how to live, or legislating, according to those beliefs.

Oh Josephus you are getting really desperate now...lmao WRONG AGAIN!

Firstly I'm not an Atheist...I just don't believe in fairy takles like you do...lol

Secondly the biggest money making scam on the planet is religion and including your religion.

Jesus told us about wolves in sheep's clothing and instead of following Jesus you joined the wolves...lmao

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

How anyone with brains can reconcile the wealth of the churches and Jesus' teachings stuns me...Then how anyone can reconcile the wrong beliefs of believers against Jesus and God astounds me more...lmao

What did Jesus tell the rich man?

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Jesus and his followers, the people you delusionally think your religion is based on, had a purse and Judas Iscariot was in charge of the purse...

John 13:29 Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the festival, or to give something to the poor.

So now reconcile the grandeur and wealth of the religion compared to Jesus with a robe, a shaul and some sandals...and NO BUILDINGS!

I studied the Bible and Christianity Josephus...should I ignore the truth and be diverted into astology just for you...Not likely!

Is the penny going to drop for you one day Josephus or have you totally missed the bus?...lmao

The Christian faith I uphold its emphasis is on character building, moral and socially wholesome community behaviours, and adhering to established wisdom.

To Bush Bunny. You said "If a priest or cleric can give you support in a time of mourning or desperation. Well let them, because our so called democratic government won't."

For that kind observation, I thank you. It's true that there's a lot to lose hope over in the world and so finding hope and strength is no small matter. Because as you've said the government won't.

However I don't want to end with this concession, with a hollow victory. Though hope is good, that it being good shouldn't detract from if the hope is truthful or not. Some people hold onto a hope that no one should challenge. Such as if they lose a loved one, no one should correct their memory of that person to say they weren't as great as they are remembered. It would add insult and hurt to an already tender tragedy. If belief in religion is looked as in the same manner, I fear all it will do is stop you or anyone else holding a similar view from seeking out if it is true or not. If it holds merit or not. Or to seek about God in any general way. As if you've found the only purpose for religion is to be in the hearts of those that need it to get through life, and therefore not worth any further consideration.

So let me say this instead.

I don't believe that Christians are holier then thou. But that they (within our beliefs) recognize our need for God. Even though there are standards within Christianity and in the teachings within the bible, a very important element is to be rescued by God. Redeemed. And shown mercy and forgiveness. If I give you the impression of being holier then you or anyone, please hear me now. I don't mean it that way.

(Continued)

(Continued)

I've gotten frustrated with some people. I also stand by the bible as my standard, so correcting others views and falsehoods is not my attempt to be holier. But just to stand by what's correct. I failed to many standards of the world and in my faith to count myself as holier then anyone. Please don't walk away with the conclusion of Christians being holier. Or at least don't walk away with the conclusion that I say I'm holier. I just know my need for God. I know this through my experiences and my life too. It's not made up and been untested.

Secondly, as I said before. The details matter. Religions should not be counted as the same thing. Nor should points that are not part of that religion be counted against it. The bible isn't a book about turning lead into gold. Be careful of your rationalizations to not accept any religion. I suspect many of them are without merit, but still sound clever and smart.

Be careful because though I've tried to address your points, you've not seen the lack of credibility in those points and moved on to others that hold the same lack of credibility. Don't take that as an insult, but as an observation.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Last thing. Jesus told His disciples that His message wasn't for the world because the world is not looking for Him. And that shows a dramatic element. If people aren't looking for God they won't find the truths within His teachings. This is true for both the atheist who rejects any concept of God or gods, as well as true for Christian who loses their focus because of other focuses in life. But there is a lot of good wisdom within the bible that becomes ignored. And there are teachings that lead to following God, and knowing what He wants and expects from us. The believer can lose sight of this sometimes. But the unbeliever that thinks they have no need for any of it is robbed completely from both the wisdom and the nearness to God.

Therefore when rationalizing away anything, be certain that your founded points are based on something of value and merit instead of just a clever mocker of religion. Be sure your not being robbed by your stance that you do not need God. Because you do. We all need Him.

You can do all those things you mentioned, without relying on an ancient book/s whose world view was so different from ours. Our religious laws are harder to comply with than our civil laws. 500 years ago, we might be burned at the stake, or hung drawn and quartered if one was an illegal Roman Catholic priest. I have a stork mark between my eyebrows, it has almost faded now. But eons ago it was a sign of the devil, and I would be drowned, hanged or whatever. (Oh, that is a V, caused by where I lay in the womb.)

You don't need a religion to do good, or find salvation. Probably the Wiccan belief is 'Do what thou wilt, provide it harm nobody' or standby while harm is being done. I just don't know where that leaves our politicians? lol

Please excuse my repeating what I've written so many
times in the past. Here goes:

Many people today see religion as nothing more
than a primitive relic that will eventually disappear
in our more sophisticated modern world. But the fact
that religion is universal in human society - perhaps
the question to ask is - why?

Could it be that religion does have a vital function in
maintaining the social system as a whole?

Perhaps the origins of religion were social, not supernatural.
Whatever their source, the rituals enacted in any religion
enhance the solidarity of the community as well as its faith.

Consider such religious rituals as - baptism, bar mitzvah,
weddings, Sabbath services, Christmas mass, and funerals.
Rituals like these serve to bring people together; to remind
them of their common group membership, to reaffirm their
traditional values; to maintain prohibitions and taboos, to
offer comfort in times of crisis; and in general, to help
transmit the cultural heritage from one generation to the next.

In fact, shared religious beliefs and the rituals that go
with them many sociologists would argue that every society
needs a religion, or at least some belief system that serves
the same functions.

Of course many people no longer believe deeply in traditional
religion, but many have found no satisfying substitute.

Some lacking commitment to a shared belief system, tend to
pursue their private interests without regard for their
fellows.

For many years it was widely felt that as science progressively
provided rational explanations for the mysteries of the universe,
religion would have less and less of a role to play and would
eventually disappear, unmasked as nothing more than superstition.

But there are still gaps in our understanding that science
can never fill. On the ultimately important questions -
of the meaning and purpose of life and the nature of morality.

Few citizens of modern societies would utterly deny the
possibility of some higher power in the universe, some
supernatural, transcendental realm that lies beyond the
boundaries of ordinary experience, and in this fundamental sense
religion is probably here to stay.

Foxy, it's more to do with presentation. In American we have heard of the crazy, bigoted Bible belt. Biologists and other teachers who teach evolution, not creationism are labeled untrustworthy and black balled in society and work. However, a new wave of churches are flourishing. They are but are there to help people and are part welfare too. Bringing people in their communities together, there is some singing, which is a ploy but it does lighten the soul and make people happy. Like laughter. They are hands on Christians.

However I doubt if Judaism or Islam will lighten up for a long time. I have a beautiful granddaughter I have not seen since she was 4, because she was born out of wedlock to my youngest son. They left where I lived and moved away. I managed to send birthday and Christmas presents via her great grandfather. He left and I stopped sending presents as I never got any acknowledgement of her receiving them, or if she even knew about me and her biological father. They were strict Seventh Day Adventists. Then all of a sudden her step father contacts my son, and they made contact. But - she didn't know about me trying to keep contact with her for 10 years after she left. I know why, I have a degree in Archaeology and Palaeoathropology, of course I am an evolutionist. And her mother, once said, you are not saying we evolved from monkeys. I gave her a book, but she didn't believe it. We did not evolve from monkeys or higher apes, but we shared a common ancestor years and years ago, at least six million years. So don't tell me our bible lovers are honest and truthful if they believe that we walked with dinosaurs and the earth is only 10,000 years old.

The thing is that the step father against his wife's wishes tried to make contact, as my granddaughter did not know about the presents and gifts I had sent her, in fact she didn't know she had another father.

It's easy to look at religion with rose coloured glasses and look for the good in it...afterall that is all that believers do...That's easy!

Religion in some instances MAY have done good things in society, but, was it really religion that was the catalyst or was it just good people promoting the changes because they have morals.

I can only really analyse me in these issues. Do I do good things because of religion or is it more associated with my environment.

After years of analysis I give credit to my parents and my family more than I could ever give credit to religions.

THE RELIGIOUS LIED TO ME AND CONTINUE TO DO SO! THEY CONTINUE TO LIE TO CHILDREN, INDOCTRINATING THEM WITH A MIX OF FEAR AND BABY JESUS STORIES! It is outrageous behaviour and a form of abuse!

In fact if you were to analyse why I post like I do...my bluntness is caused by the lies and the ongoing justifications of those lies by the religious.

The OT is ancient people's trying to work out how things begun and there is absolutely no supernatural in the stories. The psychopathic writers like Moses justified everything by putting "God said" in front of things to manipulate and confuse.

It worked!....and continues to work amongst the simplistic believers today.

Never gloss over lies, and the analysis through proper education through illogical superstitious rubbish by getting lost looking for a silver lining...

We can't progress as humans by believing superstitious nonsense and lies and blinding ourselves to the real evidence.

You can't call people good if they deliberately lie and continue to fleece the sheep through those lies and who cover up crimes within their organisations.

If there is life after death supposedly like the believers think...lol) they won't be allowed into heaven because they are part of the problem NOT part of the solution!

You simply can't claim to have a good heart, when you believe people who think and believe differently to you, are going to rot in the eternal lakes of hell, a place that doesn't even exist!

Parents teaching their children their religion is not child abuse.

Look up examples of abuse. There are real abuses out there. To say teaching religion is one of them is a horrible lie that somehow has become popular to believe.

It depends on how it’s done, Not_Now.Soon.

<<Parents teaching their children their religion is not child abuse.>>

If parents simply inform their children of their own beliefs, then there is nothing wrong with that. But, let's face it, no religious parents stop there.

If, on the other hand, parents teach their children to accept their religion unquestioningly, then I would say that is a form of abuse. That's indoctrination. Worse still is when children are taught that it is a sin to question their faith.

What is absolutely child abuse is using the threat of hell to scare children into believing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7OyAnn3S7Y

Dear Bush bunny,

I'm so sorry to read about the problems you'v had with
your grandaughter. So sorry for you and your family.
I'm no pundit. I have only my own life experiences to go
on. Every relationship is a gift. I've been lucky to have
been given great gifts by each of the people I have
encountered on my journey through life. They've helped
shape me into the person I have become and still hope to
be. We all meet some bad people along the way. But we also
meet some amazing souls and its their light that fills us.
I wish for you to encounter more of the amazing souls - than
bad people in your life.

Take care and All The Best.

Dear OP2,

The following link is worth a look:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335159/Mysterious-hill-crosses-pilgrims-actually-believe-Christ-perform-miracles.html

NNN you really haven't got a clue now have you?

AJPhillips covers it pretty well but let's expand on this abuse notion.

Is it fine for believers to lie to their children based on flawed knowledge and superstitious rubbish? If you say yes where are your morals?

Is it right using those infantile flawed beliefs to indoctrinate children?

Is it OK to scare children with things like the devil and talking snakes? They are lies that don't exist!

Is it OK to scare children about the sulphur lakes of hell that don't exist and which are based on more lies?

Is it OK to scare children by lying that God murdered every child and baby in the flood that never happened?

Is it OK for believers like you to scare children about the Passover that never happened, teaching kids how God murdered every innocent baby, innocent child, and innocent babe in the womb just because they weren't an Israelite?

Is it OK for believers like you to lie and ignore all the horrors in the Bible, teaching the Bible hero rubbish, when all these so called heroes were simply psychopaths and mentally ill people?

Suddenly you don't sound very moral do you NNN?

It seems that you will lie, trick and destort the truth so that your children can get indoctrinated into your religious beliefs through lying, trickery and terrifying them and you don't care.

There is a bit more to your simplistic statement regarding the family religion now isn't there?

So none of the above is abuse? So endeth another lesson in common sense and decency for you NNN.

So are you really saying that scaring children isn't abuse? Don't pretend that isn't what happens now...

Be careful that talking snake is watching you and reading your thoughts...lmao BOO!

To AJ Philips.

If a parent believes something to be true it is not child abuse to teach their children their beliefs as if it is true. This goes beyond religion and in general raising up their children. There are abuses parents do. Real abuses. There are abuses that happen outside of parent child relationships that are also real abuses. There is abuse adults do to eachother, as well as abuse children do to eachother. Whenever someone confronts these things they should feel revolted inside of them. Something much stronger then if a parent is good or needs work. Or scrunitize that a parent should have done something a different way (as if the critism is coming from those who volunteer to help).

For example, if a parent yells at their kid, that's not abuse. It is abuse if they constantly yell at their kids, but if it's not that much at best it can be counted as bad parenting but not abusive. Child services shouldn't be called for that example even if as a bystander you or I think the parent was wrong.

The same is true with religion. You don't call child services to come pick up the kid and remove them for their own protection, (even if you don't agree with the religion), unless there is an active abusive element going on.

(Continued)

(Continued)

As for Christianity being abusive (as opposed to religion being abusive).

Parents tell their kids to believe them without reason all the time. It's the "because I said so" clause. Teachers do the same thing, though for different reasons, they teach kids what to think, how to think. What to study and how to study. But as much as that is indoctrinating the kids to think, act and study in certain ways, and conform to the standards, we don't call it indoctrination. We just call it teaching them. Telling kids what's what is not abuse, even if the parent is wrong about the information it is not abuse.

Regarding Hell. Right now we're discussing in the topic of if there is an afterlife or not. On that topic there's no real conclusion agreed on. However, unfortunately there's still two ways to look at it. Either A) God exists and an afterlife exists and therefore hell is a possibility (and can be used as a threat or a form of emotional abuse, though I've never seen that actually be used like that), or B) God doesn't exist, there is no afterlife, and when you die nothing you did will matter, because your dead (which could also be used as an emotional abuse that they will never matter. Never amount to anything.)

You see where I'm going with this I hope. Whether hell exists or not, nor whether it is being taught or not, are points to show whether abuse is occurring or whether it isn't. I'm sorry but even if a non Christian doesn't believe in hell, it's not abuse. At best it's parenting that you don't agree with. It's only abuse when abuse is really involved.

Sorry for the rant AJ Philips. I get peeved when I see these kind of ideas that cut parents down for doing their jobs as parents, hopefully being as good a parent as they know how to be. Unless there's something that's real abuse, I think respecting the parent children relationship is something more people need to do. Just my thoughts I suppose.

Most of the established religions, not the newer ones, some who developed in the 19th Century, they generally instill in children under the age of 13 that God or Jesus is a benevolent spirit or deity. He rewards moral behavior and punishes amoral or those that transgress into selfishness and crime or worse.

Actually they mean behave well in our culture or you will suffer the consequences.

Brought up a Roman Catholic, we were prejudiced against. My father forbade me taking religious knowledge classes at high school. But the school said I was to sit in the class. Even during a GCE exam. I could have passed with flying colours, as it was more about Christian history.No protestant dogma.

I could not join the girl guides as it was run by the Anglican church, and said I had to attend services. Dad said no, even though it was what he called a high church, Anglican. Not just church of England. I do not believe in abortion, although I would not forbid a girl or woman asking for one, so long as it is just a form of dangerous contraception. Anyway I married in an Anglican church, as my husband was an RAF officer and we only had Greek Orthodox Churches. But I had to undergo a civil ceremony in the Cypriot mayors office. I often wonder if I was to return there, they would arrest me for bigamy. lol.

Continued.

There are zealous Christian religions and obviously extremists. Even some orthodox Jews, teach their children the six day creation story, after all it was started by the story in the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. They also isolate their children from joining in the culture they live in. No TV, no marrying out of the faith etc. It's a form of control, over control.

I had an old school friend Maya, who was Jewish. We met again on the internet, (after 45 years) and gee, we exchanged some really funny emails. She died suddenly on the operating theatre. I did not know and scanned a picture of her and her sister she gave me when we were in school in UK. I was shocked as it arrived the day of her funeral in Jerusalem, but they thought it was fate.

She was a liberal Jew. But she explained it is the orthodox who are most against Palestinians, Zionists. On Saturdays they don't dare drive in the Orthodox areas, but when the Palestinians are playing up they do. Although it was terrible living in Jerusalem, she had not lost that typical Jewish mothers humour, a bit sardonic, but funny.

There are religious Christians that use God and Devil, Demons to frighten and damage their children by fear of going to hell. They belong to the 15th Century to me. Anyway. One doesn't need the Bible to guide you into moral behaviour. Now people are educated, to me still believing in the six day creation is wrong.

Not necessarily, Not_Now.Soon.

<<If a parent believes something to be true it is not child abuse to teach their children their beliefs as if it is true.>>

If what the parents believe to be true is in fact true, then it would not be abuse for them to teach their children what they believe - hellfire and all. Indeed, they would have an obligation to warn their children of what awaits if they reject God.

However, for it to not be abuse, given what is at stake should they be wrong, they would also need to be able to objectively verify that what they believe is true. Until they can do this, it is abuse.

Abuse:
2.3 Use or treat in such a way as to cause damage or harm.
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/abuse

Teaching children to accept a belief system uncritically is damaging and harmful; instilling a fear in children to ensure they believe the way you want them to believe is damaging and harmful. Recovering from Religion is an organisation that was set up to help adult non-believers who are still affected by such abuse.

http://www.recoveringfromreligion.org

I think you are placing too much weight on intent. Some child sex abusers don’t believe they are causing any harm to the children they sexually abuse. To some, sexual contact with a child is a genuine way of showing love and affection (Michael Jackson was likely this type of offender), but that doesn’t mean that what they are doing isn’t abuse.

<<It is abuse if [parents] constantly yell at their kids … Child services shouldn't be called for that example even if as a bystander you or I think the parent was wrong.>>

Agreed. Societies need to weigh the risks and benefits of criminalising various forms of behaviour, and I think most would agree that risks of criminalising excessive yelling or religious indoctrination would outweigh the benefits.

Continued…

…Continued

<<You don't call child services to come pick up the kid and remove them for their own protection … unless there is an active abusive element going on.>>

But, hang on, you just said yourself that there were instances of abuse where we would not call the police. Now you’re relying on the fact that we don't call the police when parents indoctrinate their children into their religion to show that religious indoctrination is not child abuse?

Anyway, I think I’ve adequately shown that, by definition, religious indoctrination is a form of child abuse.

<< Parents tell their kids to believe them without reason all the time.>>

Yes, but this is generally done in situations that are either mundane, or the child’s safety depends on them accepting what their parents are telling them when they don't necessarily have the time to explain why they should. Religious belief is neither of these.

<<Regarding Hell. Right now we're discussing in the topic of if there is an afterlife or not. On that topic there's no real conclusion agreed on.>>

The existence of Hell does not have to be disproved for threats Hellfire (or even the mere mentioning of Hellfire as if it were real) to constitute abuse. The burden of proof rests with those who claim that Hell exists. Until evidence is produced, the default position is disbelief, and telling a child that such a place awaits is child abuse.

<<… or B) God doesn't exist, there is no afterlife, and when you die nothing you did will matter, because your dead (which could also be used as an emotional abuse that they will never matter. Never amount to anything.)>>

That’s a bit of a stretch. Non-religious parents don’t tell their children that they will never amount to anything because there is no afterlife. You have inserted your own religious take on what the non-existence of life after death would mean. If anything, the idea that there is no afterlife should inspire a child to make the most of the one and only life they can know they’re going to have.

OMG! NNN you are making a complete dill of yourself...

So when a teacher teaches 1 + 1 = 2 or 5 x 5 = 25 you think that is indoctrination too, but just called something else?...lmao WOW! Now I have heard everything!

Your belief that God hated the world so much that he drowned every baby in the world, in your religion, is a load of crap. That is the difference between education and indoctrination.

Your justifications are simply ridiculous.

So let's roll out a big gun that is in your Bible...

Oh LOOK! God orders heads cut off and put up on poles... REALLY?

Numbers 25:4 And THE LORD SAID unto Moses, TAKE ALL THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE, AND HANG THEM UP BEFORE THE LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.

If you believe the Bible is GOD's word then you have to believe this lie against GOD... SO do you believers?

It is obvious that Moses made this up and pretended that GOD said it...Oh sorry...obvious to anyone with a working brain between their ears...lmao

Of course this verse is never taught in churches and is hidden from most believers because it simply makes a mockery of a loving God/Jesus!

REMEMBER IT IS YOU PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE THESE LIES AGAINST GOD - NOT ME!

So NNN why do you believers trick kids by not showing them verses like these? What are you ashamed of?

So GOD threatens to send wild animals to kill children?

I (GOD) will also SEND WILD ANIMALS AMONG YOU< AND ROB YOU OF YOUR CHILDREN, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

REALLY?And you guys actually believe the GOD you supposedly love would do this intentionally to children?...Do you?

Do you teach your kids this verse that you believe against GOD?

Your position is imbecillic NNN...lmao

Why do you believers hate God so much believing these lies against God?

I see no harm in telling children there is life after death. Especially if they lose a parent or sibling, grandparent. They are innocent and death should not take them to the depths of despair if they know you believe that's it. I often visit my parents and sons graves, and talk to them, and sometimes it cheers me up, and empowers me.

I would, and when I lost two sons, I wanted to believe there was. I just think I will hedge my bets and say I hope there is. But I think those last few hours or minutes when we are clinically dead, our brain does allow us to believe that we meet our long lost friends and loved ones. So - who knows. I hope I meet my pets and horses. But just remembering them I suspect is in a way keeping them close to us.

//It's only abuse when abuse is really involved.//

It's only a tautology when tautologies are really involved.

//Secondly, as I said before. The details matter. Religions should not be counted as the same thing.//

I came across a new song the other day. New for me, anyway - it was recorded years ago. Anyway, I think it'll be right up your alley.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqqpq1JYclk

Bush Bunny,

Firstly, my condolences for the fact that you visit your sons’ graves. No parent should have the misfortune of outliving any of their children.

Depending on their age, I personally don’t think it’s always wrong to tell a child that there is an afterlife (Hell, specifically, is a different story).

Despite only being a child at the time, I clearly remember sitting down with my family to watch the airing of the first episode of the television series Fame. The reason I remember this so clearly is because the first line of the chorus of the show’s theme song, which played at the start of each episode (“I’m gonna live forever”), terrified me because it was after hearing that line that it occurred to me for the first time ever that I would one day die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV9ajjn46dY

I remember immediately asking my parents what will happen when I die, and their response was that I would go Heaven and live there forever. My anxiety instantly disappeared.

While my parents did their best to indoctrinate me into Christianity, I don’t count that moment as an instance of their indoctrinating, and I'm grateful that they were able to settle my nerves in that moment.

Fast-forward 25 years, and I was faced with the same question from my daughter when she was far too young to be dwelling too much on such a sad topic. Because of my own experience, however, I was prepared for it. When my daughter asked what happens when we die, I simply said that I don’t know what happens. Which, depending on how one defines knowledge, is technically correct anyway.

However, had I sensed the level of fear and dread that I remember suddenly feeling that fateful night in 1982, I would have told her that she was going to go to a nice place where she would always be happy.

Dear AJ,

I remember as a child being told when my beloved granfather died that
he went to heaven and would watch over me always.

And at his funeral when I saw people crying - I tried to reassure
them. I said - "That's not really my granpapa in that box.
That's just his skin and bones. That's not really him. He's in
a better place." It make some adults smile.

I think children usually put their own interpretations onto
what they're told.

Believers like NNN and Josephus always try to justify their positions through manipulation of the facts. That is part of the indoctrination process that they approve of.

The whole Bible is supposedly the word of God, so why are believers and religions so dishonestly selective in their teaching of it.

Worse is they use that dishonest approach to manipulate other lazy believers but worse still children. They just ignore all the horrid anti-God verses in the Bible as part of their devious practices.

You will never hear believers mention these verses

Leviticus 26:22 I (GOD) will also SEND WILD ANIMALS AMONG YOU AND ROB YOU OF YOUR CHILDREN, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.

Or

1 Samuel 15:2-3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

or

Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore KILL EVERY MALE AMONGST THE LITTLE ONES, and KILL EVERY WOMAN THAT HATH KNOWN A MAN BY LYING WITH HIM.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Oh yes they are so proud of the faith and their belief that they forget to mention verses like these. Funny that!

How could anyone in their right mind believe that these instructions are from their baby Jesus/God? It's an obscenity.

So when NNN says there is nothing wrong with teaching a child the family religion he is partaking in the deceptive abusive behaviour to manipulate young minds to believe lies.

Religion therefore is obviously a mental illness because only a nutjob would believe that God approved of these things and only a liar would hide these verses deceptively from others in an attempt to indoctrinate young children.

Shame on you believers!

Dear Foxy,

Thanks for your reply. Your story is a good example of why I’m not always against telling small children that there is an afterlife. It’s not like you’re depriving the child of the ability to ever think critically about something again. Certainly not enough to leave a child to panic over their own mortality.

--

Not_Now.Soon,

Just one clarification, more for the benefit of one particular schmuck around here who thinks it’s clever to point out differences in wording and pretend that they’re attempts to re-frame debates:

You have compared concerns worthy of the attention of child services to concerns that are not worthy of the attention of child services:

“Child services shouldn't be called for that example even if as a bystander you or I think the parent was wrong.” - Not_Now.Soon

Meanwhile, I’ve spoken of the criminalising, or not, of behaviour:

“Societies need to weigh the risks and benefits of criminalising various forms of behaviour, and I think most would agree that risks of criminalising excessive yelling or religious indoctrination would outweigh the benefits.” - AJ

Please note that either way - whether the question be about criminalisation, or simply the attention of child services - my argument remains the same.

Likewise, you have referred to the contacting of child services, while I have spoken of the contacting of police.

Again, please note that these differences of wording do not change my argument.

Here is why I used the example of 1+1=2 in the above post.

We all know that in science we use the "Theory of" to keep the door open for further discoveries that might change those theories and clarify the evidence within the theories. So it is actually the "Theory of Gravity" that explains the main energy between bodies in the Universe.

In Math, however, it is a bit more certain...1+1...does...equal...2.

So many people, if asked, say I know 1+1=2. A believer might say I know God exists in the next breath. Suddenly, a fact has been very deceptively placed on the same level as belief.

Imagine that in the mind of a child. Indoctrination can be that simple and that quick.

That is why I always nail believers for their manipulations of discussions. It starts with the little airy fairy explanation of God being the head of the household etc. and the manipulation begins.

The facts are that they intentionally and deceitfully leave out the bad bits of the Bible but still say it is God's word.

So kids believe Baby Jesus stories and the Bible as absolutely true in the same manipulated thought process.

Believers claim to be good people but they believe every person who doesn't follow their belief is going to hell....an outrageous lie........there is no hell.

So abuse doesn't have to be the outrageous sexual abuse that the religions have covered up...It is also the lying to manipulate minds.

Believers never say "Call the Police" in the worst abuse cases. That is why believers are quite accepting of indoctrination, lying and deceit to children not being abuse....when it is.

It is simply designed to deceitfully manipulate children's minds so in certain areas they never question the lies. Religion is their area of choice.

In their heads it is as factual as 1+1=2 and I don't stand for their lies.

If you can't see these simple manipulations, I do, and I correct them loudly!

To Bush Bunny. I'm sorry for your loss. As AJ Philips said earlier, no parent should have to bury their kids. But your right our memories of those who passed on are something for us to hold on to for those of us who live on. Wish you the best Bush Bunny.

To AJ Philips. Thanks for the clarification, I think I need to clarify my own words as well. Earlier you quoted me to say that excessive yelling is not an instance to call child services. What I meant is that yelling itself is not abuse, it is only abuse when it becomes constant or excessive in some other way (usually gets past yelling at that point). If a parent gets short once in a while it might show a struggle that the parent is having but not be considered abuse. I would not try to call some other service to intervene at that point. But if it becomes abusive at one point, having an expert come in in my opinion is the right thing to do. If for no reason other reason to try and assist the parents and children to be in a better situation or handle themselves better with some parenting advise or tools for the parents themselves.

However parents struggle with parenting styles being called abuse a lot more now a days. Is spanking abuse, is yelling at your kids abuse, is not supporting them in all their ideals abuse, or is it abuse to do this or that or the next thing. I'm not yet a parent, but it seems like society bombards itself with conflicting standards for what is abusive and what isn't. Or if the parent is new, bombard them with uncertainty that could draw them away from their roles of being an active parent loving and protecting their kids. (Because if they do it wrong their kids can be taken away). So instead they do less, get less involved, or are fearful of consequences because even though they aren't abusive, they aren't the greatest parents either, and possibly struggle with juggling parenthood, work and other stresses of life.

(Continued)

(Continued)

Because of this I think we should only call something abuse when it really is abuse. And when there is abuse, whether because of an active form or abuse (such as violence, exposure to unsafe conditions [drugs possibly] or cruel and over the top punishments like locking kids in a closet, or a basement, or confining them for hours or days); or if it is a neglectful form of abuse, like leaving your kids in the hot car, or neglecting to feed them. If there is real abuse calling someone to assist the issue or remove the children while the issue persists, (or permanently even); that should be what we do. If it isn't abuse though I don't what us calling it abuse.

I don't see religious training (from my limited knowledge of most religions) as abusive. The only exception I know is not so much about teaching your kids about the truth as you know it. (It is a parents obligation to prepare there children for the world even if the parent is wrong about how the world really works. On this I think you and I mostly agree.) but from what I've heard about an Islamic practice of killing family members either because a daughter had sex (regardless of choosing to or not.) or killing a child because they reject Islam and become atheist or turn to another religion. This is the only exception I am aware of that teaching a religion becomes abusive, and rightly should have interventions to stop the abuse. On that note, would you consider calling the authorities during a church's Sunday school, because of the abuse they are doing to the children? If the answer is no then
I really would challenge if Sunday school (or religious teaching in general) is a form of abuse.

It's not indoctrination it's teaching. I stand by that.

(Continued)

Last thing. You challenged my view (that religious teaching is not abusive) because of the teaching of hell. Perhaps I am alone in not seeing this being taught to kids in the way you've described that is used threateningly or as something to make them excessively fearful. Therefore I used another example that I don't see being taught to kids but none the less I see people struggle with. The example of having nothing to amount to is an abusive thing I've heard some people had to grow up being told. Others aren't told this but struggle with it with regards to their own life and what happens when they die. If you see someone being abused in such a way that they are excessively fearful, or feel threatened, or feel hopeless and worthless, I encourage you to intervene. If not though, then I bet they are not being taught in an abusive way.

//I don't see religious training (from my limited knowledge of most religions) as abusive. The only exception I know is not so much about teaching your kids about the truth as you know it... but from what I've heard about an Islamic practice of killing family members either because a daughter had sex (regardless of choosing to or not.) or killing a child because they reject Islam and become atheist or turn to another religion. This is the only exception I am aware of that teaching a religion becomes abusive//

Are you joking?

http://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/nuwaubian-nation-moors
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/11/children-of-god-church-sex-cult-texas-mexico-fbi
http://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/01/03/racist-cult-leaders-accused-ritualistic-sex-abuse-children-new-lawsuit

And so on. Hell, it's probably easier to find cults that haven't been accused of abuse. Of course, if you ask a cult member they'll tell you that it's not abuse, just religious instruction. And the more extreme denominations of mainstream faiths like Christianity are very, very cult-like in their behaviour, so it can be hard to draw a clear line between what counts as abuse and what doesn't. Obviously raping kids is definitely child abuse. But is indoctrinating them to hate everybody outside their cult child abuse, like the Westboro Baptists do? Is it child abuse when Jehovah's Witnesses refuse life-saving treatment for their children on religious grounds?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/judge-allows-blood-transfusion-for-jehovahs-witness-boy-against-parents-wishes/news-story/39297b4edd8838e641c1cf47a1361a53

//Perhaps I am alone in not seeing this being taught to kids in the way you've described that is used threateningly or as something to make them excessively fearful.//

Did we watch the same video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7OyAnn3S7Y

Do you really believe that those 'Hellhouses' discussed in the video (what a truly horrific and disgusting idea they are... what the hell is wrong with you Seppos?) are not being used threateningly or as something to make them excessively fearful?

I worked for a woman's centre that had a child sexual assault service. My son died of completing suicide when he was 31 as he had told me years before his paternal grandfather had sexually assaulted him when he was a young child. No one believed him as his suicide notes kept mentioning it.

I did I knew the man, and he once told me, 'I am teaching Jamie something about sex' I took that in one ear and out the other. But he had mentioned it to his step mother when the same man was going to be thrown out of a nursing home for assaulting bed ridden women and stealing money from them. She never told his own father till years later, because she thought her husband would blame her for not telling him at the time. She was embarrassed and being a blue ribbon type who thought they were superior to others didn't want any scandal. Jamie died because he was haunted about his sexual identity. It caused a rift between my ex husband and his wife after he died. It hasn't healed either after nearly 20 years. Well, she was to blame,and his daughter came under universal attention while trying to accuse two high flying bank executives had sexually harassed and raped her. The court case was thrown out and she was charged over 6 million dollars damages.

Back to the job I once had. The worker who dealt with child sexual assault victims, revealed child victims never really get over it, especially if the parents don't believe them or it is a family member who assaults them. But a big conference back in 1988 said, 'The problem we have now is psychological abuse, something that doesn't fall into the criminal category. Hard line extremist religious parents can damage a child beyond starving them, or sexually or mentally abusing them. Sometimes the two go together and the child never really gets over a fear of hell.

OMG! What you and your family have experienced is tragic BB. I can't even imagine what you have been though.

That is why people like NNN shouldn't be listened to.

They keep wanting to divide abuse into catergories that suit them, and not address the problems contained in all levels of abuse. In the end they just do the bidding of the religions.

They will trivialise anything to justify their pathetic positions.

The covering up of abuse in all parts of society continues because of the pathetic positions taken by the religions.

The corruption of religions/religious permeates all levels of society and their evil, unGodly methods bear no bounds.

How a judge can be a believer stuns me....They are supposedly learned!

How a politician can be a believer astounds me also until you realise that they are driven by little or no morality anyway or a hidden agenda to manipulate society on behalf of the group financing them.

Lying to children, indoctrinating children, manipulating children etc are all forms of emotional and mental abuse.

Religion has deadened the believer mind so much they have lost the ability to see the obvious...Afterall they believe in talking snakes and floods that never happened...lmao

I know what I went through on my journey to break away from the lies of religion. Lucky for me I was sufficiently motivated to study the Bible properly and to realise all the lies as I had been told in the name of God...lmao

I'd pity the likes of NNN and Josephus but they don't deserve pity, they deserve scorn!

You will note they are too scared to ever answer questions because I know the Bible too well and they will be proiven wrong again.

So you brave believers amongst us... Did God really order the cutting off of the heads of the vanquished?

Numbers 25:4 And THE LORD SAID unto Moses, TAKE ALL THE HEADS OF THE PEOPLE, AND HANG THEM UP BEFORE THE LORD AGAINST THE SUN, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.

Your beloved Bible says God did...lmao

Opine 2. I got divorced from my first husband in the old Family Law Act. Because he was an ex RAF officer and Qantas pilot, and I had three children we decided that he was better equipped for the day to day care of the children. He brought his elderly parents out from England to care for them when he was away. That worked out fine for a while, I lived less than 1 mile away. I got a job and lived with my girl friend during the time he was home and stayed there when he was on a flight.

However, he had several ladies, and most were OK with me, until one. But then he married a air hostess who had nothing to do with our break up.

But after my second sons death, I was rethinking what I had done. I had no choice on the divorce, I was English, no work experience to talk about, no single parents pension then, and I was scared of my husband. He was in intelligence in the RAF,knew about brain washing, and once the brakes on our car were making a terrible sound, and there were no brake pads left, either wear or ? So? I do feel let down by marriage and my second marriage failed too. It is funny, my first husband said, 'Who wants an intelligent wife' and my second, "Who wants a wife better educated than them." I enrolled in university. Neither wanted an independent woman. But I would not be repressed and I grew wings after I became a single person again. Yes got educated OK. My majors were archaeology, palaeoanthropology and ancient history. And published a book and multiple articles and short stories.
Both my husbands are nearly millionaires, but me I live with my eldest son, in a nice home inherited from my mother. On a pension. We cope, but I wish I had more money.

Bush Bunny, you have my sympothies from what you've been through, and my praise for working in the women's center. I hope that where ever you are now in Life, that God grants you His love and His strength.

(If you don't believe in God, please don't be offended. I wish you well by the standard I rest all my hopes on.)

To Toni Lavis. I was not aware of the hell house productions. My upbringing did not have that in it. Did you grow up with that kind of influence?

As for the examples of both Christian and Islamic cults, I think those examples are more of a reflection on the leaders of those cults and their evil to do harm and to rape. The religion they say they are based on aren't really represented there in my opinion.

Regarding Jehovah Witnesses though, that's harder for me to judge well. They've grown enough to not be centered around one charismatic leader, and there are communities that build eachother up within Johova Witnesses. I'm not for Johovah Witnesses because I've heard stories about them that I can't accept.

In my opinion religion is an umbrella term. Howevet, each religion should be judged according to their own people and their own beliefs. Not judged by other religions or by splinters off of that religion by charismatic but evil leaders.

I wish I could tell you that the Christian church is blameless, that abuse doesn't exist in it. But throughout history even in churches and members of the church there is abuse. As well as in every other part of society there's abuse. I'm not saying this to excuse abuses, but to show that we are all broken as a world as a whole. No one can really say "I part of (X group) and they have never had any abuses or corruption or crime among it's members.

Instead I stand by what I said earlier that if you think there is abuse going on, then do something to intervene. Let that be your standard of what counts as abuse and what counts as just hard experiences in life. If you have to call the authorities on a church because the priest or pastor is a pedophile, then do it. Get the man behind bars and away from harming more people. If you don't feel the need to call the authorities, then really question yourself if there is actual abuse going on or not.

Not_Now.Soon,

So, are you saying that you WOULD call child services on parents that excessively yell at their child to the point of abuse?

<<But if it becomes abusive at one point, having an expert come in in my opinion is the right thing to do.>>

I don’t think I would in the vast majority of cases. It would have to be pretty extreme and constant for me to do so.

<<Is spanking abuse, is yelling at your kids abuse, is not supporting them in all their ideals abuse …>>

Sometimes; sometimes; maybe if those ideals were fundamental to remaining in free society, although I’d imagine such parents would be in prison.

<<I'm not yet a parent, but it seems like society bombards itself with conflicting standards for what is abusive and what isn't.>>

I am a parent and I don’t get that impression. I think the non-specific examples you provide are either exaggerated or don’t happen. I resisted smacking my children in public, but that’s about it. Although, as a general rule, I avoided smacking as much as possible.

<<I don't see religious training (from my limited knowledge of most religions) as abusive.>>

Yes, as Toni Lavis highlighted, your experience is very limited.

Those who have managed to escape the Jehovah’s Witnesses can tell you of some shocking psychological abuse. But it doesn’t have to be Hell houses or fringe Christian sects like the JWs. Simply telling a child that a place like Hell exists and that that’s were non-believers or bad people go, is abusive - no matter how gently it’s put. To a slightly lesser degree, so too is the doctrine of Anihilationism.

<<This is the only exception I am aware of that teaching a religion becomes abusive, and rightly should have interventions to stop the abuse.>>

I really wish people would click the links I provide.

<<… would you consider calling the authorities during a church's Sunday school …? If the answer is no then I really would challenge if [religious instruction] is a form of abuse.>>

No, I wouldn’t.

Continued…

…Continued

I already went through the nuances here in my last response to you explaining why the fact that you wouldn’t call child services does not necessarily mean that something is not a form of abuse.

<<It's not indoctrination it's teaching. I stand by that.>>

So-called “religious instruction” is, by its very definition, indoctrination.

Indoctrination:
The process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
http://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/indoctrination

Religious parents tend not to inform their children of their beliefs and then encourage them to think critically about them and make up their own mind. Children are told that those beliefs are what they must accept, and many of us were taught that it is a sin to doubt or question the existence of God. There is even the age range known as the “4-14 window” (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/july/37.53.html) when children are known to be the most receptive to indoctrination because the critical thinking faculties have not yet kicked in.

Of course, that’s not always how theists see it.

<<Perhaps I am alone in not seeing this being taught to kids in the way you've described that is used threateningly or as something to make them excessively fearful.>>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7OyAnn3S7Y

As I noted earlier, though, it doesn’t have to be done in an abusive way to be considered a form of abuse. Abuse can occur to varying degrees.

<<The example of having nothing to amount to is an abusive thing I've heard some people had to grow up being told.>>

Yes, that would be abuse. But I don’t believe these people (probably born-again Christians) who told you this. I think they’re re-interpreting their non-religious upbringing through the lens of their new worldview. The reason I don’t believe them is because the idea that the non-existence of an afterlife means that people cannot amount to anything now is a total non-sequitur. It would be exceptionally rare that you would ever come across parents who were both that stupid and that cruel.

<<Others … struggle … with what happens when they die.>>

Sure, but raising children to believe a lie isn’t the answer.

//To Toni Lavis. I was not aware of the hell house productions.//

Why the hell not, NNS? AJ provided the link last Thursday. Do you follow links when I post them, but not when AJ does? That doesn't seem very reasonable, mate.

//My upbringing did not have that in it. Did you grow up with that kind of influence?//

No, and that's beside the point. The video provided unequivocal proof that some children do - and that some Christians are quite OK with that. That I've never been exposed to that sort of abuse is neither here nor there. You seem to take a very solipsistic attitude to a lot of things - if it didn't happen to you or somebody you know, it's of no concern. Personally, I consider that selfish.

//As for the examples of both Christian and Islamic cults, I think those examples are more of a reflection on the leaders of those cults and their evil to do harm and to rape. The religion they say they are based on aren't really represented there in my opinion.//

Leaving nit-picking about theological distinctions to one side for the time being... whatever religion it is that they're teaching, their methods of religious instruction are clearly abusive. Which refutes your claim that only Islam is guilty of abusive methods of religious instruction.

//Regarding Jehovah Witnesses though, that's harder for me to judge well.//

Jesus mate, it's not quantum electrodynamics. Is it or is it not abusive to refuse consent for a life-saving blood transfusion for your child because of your religious beliefs? What's so hard about that?

//I'm not for Johovah Witnesses because I've heard stories about them that I can't accept.//

See, this is what I don't get. There are plenty of well-documented cases where the children of JW's have died because their parents refused consent for transfusions. But rather than base your opposition to JW's on those well-documented cases, you choose to base it on chinese whispers, rumour, and what some bloke down the pub told you. I am reminded of the Parable of the Builders.

//Instead I stand by what I said earlier that if you think there is abuse going on, then do something to intervene. Let that be your standard of what counts as abuse and what counts as just hard experiences in life... If you don't feel the need to call the authorities, then really question yourself if there is actual abuse going on or not.//

Really? So unless I'm actually personally witness to abuse, it's not really abuse? If a child is abused in a forest and there's nobody around here it, he's just had a hard experience in life?

What a load of bollocks. Your standard for what determines abuse is some of the most non-sensical and morally bankrupt crap you've ever written. I live in Australia, so it would be rather difficult for me to be privy to the abuse of children in, say, Belgium. I am not in possession of any specific information which would warrant contacting the Beligian authorities. Do you really mean to tell me that on that basis, kids in Belgium are never subject to abuse - just hard experiences in life?

In future, I suggest that you think before you type. Save us both a lot of bother.

My next door neighbor is an Anglican priest. He was an Assoc.Prof at the university I attended, in Ancient Greek and history. And Latin. His parish is far away and we care for his home and garden. He occasionally returns home for a few days to conference with his Bishop. He and his wife are charming people. When I bombed out of Religious Studies, I told him why. I thought the marker was not up to it, and the question was rather shallow, and 3500 words was too much. So I wrote it about the evolution of religion, using my archaeology. I thought that Scientology was a Joke, I had his book, and it was the first he wrote, and it was a self help book, then he got more eccentric and deeper into thetans and how their spirits still dwelt in everyone. (Possessed by negativity holding people back from success and money). All she did was give what he Ronald Hubbard wanted his PR to sound like. He was a liar and a fraud.

I was not objective enough. How can you be if you are dealing with a cult that harms people, and they did. Same with David Koresh of the Davidians. He said he went to Mt.Carmel and an angel came and told him he was the new messiah. Mt Carmel, I doubt it. It is policed, making sure no Jews go near it. Let alone some man who claims to be the new Messiah. He had lived in an American town called Jerusalem. Anyway I withdrew I was awarded 20% for my efforts. I thought the marker was incompetent and told my next door neighbor.