continued

Another martyr to reason was Galileo who spent his last years under house arrest by the Inquisition because he maintained that the earth went around the sun.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Galileo-Galilei

“Italian natural philosopher, astronomer, and mathematician who made fundamental contributions to the sciences of motion, astronomy, and strength of materials and to the development of the scientific method. His formulation of (circular) inertia, the law of falling bodies, and parabolic trajectories marked the beginning of a fundamental change in the study of motion. His insistence that the book of nature was written in the language of mathematics changed natural philosophy from a verbal, qualitative account to a mathematical one in which experimentation became a recognized method for discovering the facts of nature. Finally, his discoveries with the telescope revolutionized astronomy and paved the way for the acceptance of the Copernican heliocentric system, but his advocacy of that system eventually resulted in an Inquisition process against him.”

For a large part of its history Christianity has been an enemy to reason and to those who questioned its dogmas. Other great minds have questioned but were more cautious. Isaac Newton also questioned the Trinity but his writings on that subject are among his unpublished papers.

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Isaac-Newton

The most important work of Spinoza was published posthumously.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza

I support a world where there is freedom to express an opinion especially if it questions current popular beliefs, and scientists and other explorers of nature are free to go wherever evidence takes them. When Christianity dominated the polity such a world did not exist.

Not_Now.Soon wrote:

To David f.

[Reason cannot prevail against the impulse to believe in crap.]

Is this an excuse to not look?

Dear Not_Now.Soon,

Your assumption that I have not looked at Christianity is false. I assure you that I have knowledge of Christianity and have thoroughly looked into it. That knowledge convinced me that it is crap.

Have you looked into Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam or Judaism? What excuse, if you haven't looked, did you use not to look?

Sadly these discussions tend to be hijacked by this silly question, whether or not God exists. That's a pity because the actual topic is whether or not [when, where, why, how, and to what extent] belief in God [whether in the Christian way or otherwise] improves one personality.

Until and unless we significantly improve our personality, discussing God is useless, because our guilt feelings would prevent from finding Him. What to speak of finding God - a person with a guilty heart who even finds a treasure of gold, would not be able to enjoy it and will somehow find a way to waste it, perhaps gamble it away.

Nevertheless, I think that believing in God, or in God's existence, is a great technique which can help the believer to improve their personality. This is the topic here. Whether this technique can also lead us even further towards God, beyond just having a better personality, that discussion I suggest to keep for another day.

Practising this technique of believing in God used to be easy, but today, due to the onslaught of material science, it has become quite difficult. I salute those who are able to practice this technique despite the difficulties, but I cannot blame those who due to the modern environment can no longer practise it - for them, however, other methods are available and following the Golden-Rule is great as well.

Yuyutsu, you propose that whether or not God (a god, any god, or just the Christian god?) exists is a silly question. I guess that depends on whether or not the existence of god is relevant to a belief in god. If the belief is what's important, then it probably does not matter if there really is a god, or any god.

Humans are good at believing in non-existent entities, and we often see this as good. We are delighted to see the joyous belief of small children in Santa Claus. In that case, of course, we expect them to realise that he doesn't actually exist when they grow up.

Not_Now.Soon,

Despite the fact that I have said nothing to suggest anything of the sort, I can understand how you would get that impression.

<<It was my impression from what you've said that you use to believe in God, but never found him.>>

This is the type of arrogant and offensive assumption Christians make of former Christians: that they couldn’t REALLY have found Jesus, otherwise disbelief would supposedly be impossible. I’d know, I used to make the same silly assumption.

Technically, I think you’re right, though, because there was no Jesus to find. I just thought I had found Jesus. At the time, however, I believed with every of my ounce of my being that I had found Him.

As I pointed out at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=19198#341464, I was a fervent believer who was very active in his church. I was quite evangelical, actually, and was keen to save souls. I’d often carry a pocket Bible around with me, and, when I was a kid, would happily debate other kids at school. After finishing school, I even briefly considered travelling to Adelaide to enrol in the Lutheran Church’s seminary here in Australia.

If I was not a true believer, then no-one is.

True believers can still come to reason. Former preacher and author, Dan Barker, is a well-known example. There is an entire organisation set up as a support group for clergy and former clergy who no longer believe but have no other skills and/or have lost, or are about to lose, their entire social group if and when they leave their profession.

http://clergyproject.org

<<Then when you found doubts, there was nothing to hold up against them.>>

I didn’t just “find doubts”, I found reasons to doubt. Reasons we have already been through, and reasons you unsurprisingly didn’t seem keen to explore in any depth.

Continued…

…Continued

But, no, none of my beliefs held up against logic and reason, and from my observations in debating theists for many years, and sharing experiences with other Christians when I was still a Christian, there is nothing in the religious beliefs of others that hold up against reason and logic either, which is why they need to have ‘faith’.

<<If I could question God as a kid, and He showed that He was there, and again a few times as a teen, and later as an adult. Each time having proof provided. Then I trust you can do it too.>>

If the proof to which you refer is along the same lines as the personal experiences which you shared in some of our previous discussions, then, no, I would not find that convincing at all since there are more rational explanations for the experiences.

If there is a god, then that god would know what it would take to convince me of its existence. If it doesn’t do that, then I can only assume that either it doesn’t exist or that it is not interested in revealing itself any way such that a belief in it could be rationally justifiable.

But, again, it is not my responsibility to go looking for a god who apparently wants to play silly buggers with vague signs.

<<… just seek Him. Prayer is a method I used.>>

Same here, and boy did I pray hard when I was losing faith. After all, the thought of hell can still be terrifying to the indoctrinated - even after the belief is completely gone, in some cases. However, try as I might, no evidence was forthcoming. Nothing.

<<… you will always want to qualify my answers and search for weakness to [prove] you've not come close enough to really examine.>>

I had examined the evidence you presented to me very closely and explained in great detail why your evidence falls short of rationally justifying a belief in a god. It is unfair of you to suggest otherwise.

We can all observe here AJ Philips life and mind is based in settled doubts and negative reasons to live. He poses no answers to even his own life, no reason or purpose only to act as Satan [opponent] for believers. To follow his life is empty of hope, reason for existence and positive purpose. His life and purpose is based in opposition to faith. He has no answers to his own purpose for life or anyone else's.
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