Point taken, Cossomby.

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runner,

I was quoting, as an authority, what you believe to be an authority, to be more precise.

<<quoting as an authority what you don't believe in AJ?>>

Nothing wrong with that.

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mhaze,

As you ponder your response (if that is indeed what you are doing), here’s a quote that I thought was rather apt, in light of your last response:

“You don't get to advertise all the good that your religion does without first scrupulously subtracting all the harm it does and considering seriously the question of whether some other religion, or no religion at all, does better.” - Dan Dennett

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o sung wu,

I don’t think Not.Now_Soon (or any other Christians here) are currently in their “hour of need”. Not.Now_Soon started a discussion with a suggestion of what non-believers should do, which hinged on and explicit assertion that his beliefs are true. Therefore, his beliefs are fair game (and to his credit, he takes it well). It’s not like the critics here are going up to cancer patients in hospital beds trying to convince them that they are about to slip into an eternity of nothingness.

Now, THAT would be a "dog act".

<<Nobody can 'prove' or 'disprove' God's existence…>>

As I was saying to mhaze, that depends on which god you're talking about. The classical omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent Abrahamic god can be disproved by explaining how such a god is logically impossible, which is why theologians have been redefining Him in recent years. That aside, until evidence for a god is presented, the burden of proof remains with those claiming that a god exists. Atheism (at least the weak form of atheism) is the default position.

To Foxy. I agree with what you've said about prayer. Good luck with what life has for you and thank you for sharing what you know about praying. :)

To mhaze. Thank you for your kindness. You've sought for God and haven't found Him? I'm sorry to hear that. I'll keep your searching in my prayers. It's not as great as finding God yourself, but if you want I can tell you what I've found. Both from study and from experience. There's an online Christian community that I'm part of too. Many of them have shared their faith and their experiences. If you get the chance go to http://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php and look for (well lots of choices) look for a guy named Christ_Empowered. He's gone through a lot in his life, and then sees God's healing hand after being saved.

To Cossomby. Thank you for the positive outlook, and the generous tone. However, I would like to share the same realization I have about God with you too. Belief and rules are great, and they do have their roles as a foundation in a person's faith. But God is more then that.

A strange thought for you. I know a few Jehovah Witnesses that visited my home when
I was younger. I let them in and we talked. I was Christian, and they said they were too. But I never found what they were coming for. Reasons to give up my understanding of Christianity for theirs. I think it was actually heartbreaking for one man. Because he'd come week after week to try and save me. I'd enjoy the conversation, think on the points made, but ultimately I did not follow his beliefs. What struck me though is that this man was trying to save me. It must have been heart breaking to him.

Please think of this in the same light. I've found that with God I am a better person then I am without Him. But how can I say I am good if I don't care enough about other people to let them find God too. Saving them, yes that's part of my beliefs. But on the other hand living with Him while on this side of eternity. That is more then worth it too.

Thank you for your kind attitude and for acknowledging the golden rule.

(Continued)

(Continued)

To clarify what I meant.

"God loves you. Otherwise He would not have sent Jesus here for your sake and mine. No, if He did not love you, He would not leave believers here to be mocked, chided, or even killed in the most horrible ways. But He has left those He's called here to be a beacon of light for those who do not know Him."

God has sent His own son to suffer to save those who would believe in Him. He allows those who believe in Him to suffer to reach even more people. The question of if God exists is not a question in my opinion. He is real. But as a measure on a broken and breaking world, Hod sends out those who believe in Him to care for the world. Love your neighbor, love your enemy. And even more then that to bring those people back to Him.

To David f.

[Reason cannot prevail against the impulse to believe in crap.]

Is this an excuse to not look? This sounds like a philosophical stance to reject something before giving it a chance. Like not giving acupuncture a chance because you know better and it's crap. Or not go to consoling because it's crap. If you want to test your beliefs, that's great. Be warned that many tests are given in a way to garnish a certain answer. But even with that your crap can be tested and refuted. God is not crap. Don't find excuses to be blind because your too smart to look.

To Paul1405. Like David f, you are rationalizing my stance without addressing anything I've said. I've seen you on these conversations, and I think you have a good head on your shoulders. But don't let that get in the way. Too much rationalization sometimes leads people away from what is right in front of them. And rationalizing Christianity away without addressing what is Christian is not a good approach.

The bible has a verse. Seek and you will find. See if that is right.

To AJ Philips.

[You forget that for half my life, I was utterly convinced that I had found Him. I stopped believing because I realised that I could not rationally support my beliefs.]

It was my impression from what you've said that you use to believe in God, but never found him. Then when you found doubts, there was nothing to hold up against them. If I'm wrong and you thought you found God, not just believed in Him. Let me know. That changes a little of how I see your stance.

[It is His responsibility to reveal Himself in a way such that belief in His existence is rationally justifiable.]

If I could question God as a kid, and He showed that He was there, and again a few times as a teen, and later as an adult. Each time having proof provided. Then I trust you can do it too. I'm not saying to rationally justify God, or have the correct theology of God and then He'll show up. No just seek Him. Prayer is a method I used. I've heard of books of ex-atheists looking to disprove God exists and instead through searching found that He had to exist, or that proof showed that He did. (I haven't read the books, but they caught my intreats. Maybe one day).

My point is that I don't think I can drag you to the conclusion, because you will always want to qualify my answers and search for weakness to proof you've not come close enough to really examine. It is a mockery in itself, but is easier if you just look on your own. I see no reason that I can find God and you can't.