To Mikk. Would you like a conversation on Love instead? Not on what love isn't. But on what love is. When I was a child, I grew up in a family that believed in God. I saw what love was in many instances from my family. As I grew I developed friendships with people, both Christian, and non Christian. I found a group of wonderful friends, and their personalities showed different aspects of kindness, looking out for each other, and loyalty. Different elements then I saw in my own family. I saw their ability to love and I envied the attributes they were strong in. However, because of knowing some of them and conversations, I also knew doubts and counter arguments to God existing. The evidance of Him being real out weighs the counter arguments that try to explain away God.

I've also dated, and observed a girl I dated with her family. Very different show of support and love then I got from my own family. Made me do a double take on what love is and what love could be. When employed I worked with a woman who's son was my age. And she loved him but could not trust him due to addiction to drugs and apparently an issue of theft for obtaining drugs. It was a sad element of loving even those who are not well. Perhaps a conversation about love is worth while. But I can tell you also that I know of God's love too. It is not a belief, it is a proof I have to know that God is real. Among other proofs of God is what made me seek which religion(s), if any, are from God. As I told AJ Phillips. If I can find God at different stages in life, with different levels of maturity and intelligence. Then so can you.

To o sung wu.

If I would give you a label, it'd be a police offices that cares about his community. Or possibly a retired police officer. That seems to line up with what I've seen that you've written. I'm glad you joined the conversation and for your attitude to not tip another's beliefs down. I will say though that I disagree that there is no proof for God. It might be that I can't prove him to another person. But that's why I've suggested for dope to search for God on their own. Thank you for your services to the community, and for looking out for others.

//One is exploring the inner mind, the other exploring ultimate mind.//

So, like, universal consciousness and stuff? Far out, man.

But I dunno, sounds a bit New Age to me...

And I just can't be havin' with bloody hippies.

//The civilisation we have inherited was built by people such as yourself.//

Was it though? Not_Now.Soon is a Biblical literalist, to the point that he will happily reject really basic and fundamental principles of physics if they disagree with his reading of the Bible. And yes, I can provide citations if needed.

I don't think the civilisation I've inherited was built by people like that. I think the civilisation I've inherited was built by brilliant, pioneering, and inquisitive people. Most of whom were Christian. I can, off the top of my head, write a fairly substantial list of noteworthy chemists and physicists - and most of them were Christian through and through. But if they'd been sort of people who favoured dogmatism over evidence, who didn't say to themselves 'well, the Bible's all very well and good but it doesn't really explain how it all works'... well, I very much doubt we'd have any internet to allow this conversation, to say the least.

//It will only survive if people such as yourself continue to espouse their views//

That the answers are all in the Bible, so why look anywhere else?

I remain unconvinced that rejecting science because it fails to meet the dogma test is the best survival strategy for our civilisation.

But hey, that's just my view... each to their own.

Live long and prosper, mhaze.

Thanks for your clarification, Not.Now.Soon. You wrote 'God has sent His own son to suffer to save those who would believe in Him. He allows those who believe in Him to suffer to reach even more people.'

This is a major stumbling block I have with Christianity. If you or I saw someone suffering we would run to their aid. We see helping those who suffer as one of the highest goods we can do. We respect and praise paramedics, we give medals for bravery in saving others. Yet we are just human.

You posit a god who is loving, compassionate and all-powerful. yet you say he 'allows those who believe in him to suffer', and the purpose of that suffering is to 'reach even more people'. For me this is counter-intuitive. I could never accept that it is valid for a human, let alone a god, to allow people to suffer when they had the power to prevent it, for any reason whatever. So if this is meant to be the means to 'reach me', well, it's a negative message I'm getting.

Dear o sung wu, I am sorry to disappoint you about me. There are some things I feel passionate about. One of those things is a great respect for people with the drive to uncover the facts of nature and to make those facts known to humankind. I lament the fate of some of them. Unfortunately Christianity has been active in martyring some of those people. Christianity celebrates the martyrs to their faith, but I would also celebrate the martyrs to reason. One was Hypatia murdered by a Christian mob in 415. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Hypatia “She was, in her time, the world’s leading mathematician and astronomer, the only woman for whom such claim can be made. She was also a popular teacher and lecturer on philosophical topics of a less-specialist nature, attracting many loyal students and large audiences.” “Hypatia became the victim of a particularly brutal murder at the hands of a gang of Christian zealots. It remains a matter of vigorous debate how much the guilt of this atrocity is Cyril’s, but the affair made Hypatia a powerful feminist symbol and a figure of affirmation for intellectual endeavour in the face of ignorant prejudice. Her intellectual accomplishments alone were quite sufficient to merit the preservation and respect of her name, but sadly, the manner of her death added to it an even greater emphasis.” Another martyr to reason was Michael Servetus, discoverer of pulmonary circulation, who was burned at the stake in Protestant Geneva in 1553. He doubted the Trinity. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Michael-Servetus Another martyr to reason was Giordano Bruno who was burned at the stake in 1600 in Catholic Rome. https://www.britannica.com/biography/Giordano-Bruno “Italian philosopher, astronomer, mathematician, and occultist whose theories anticipated modern science. The most notable of these were his theories of the infinite universe and the multiplicity of worlds, in which he rejected the traditional geocentric (Earth-centred) astronomy and intuitively went beyond the Copernican heliocentric (Sun-centred) theory, which still maintained a finite universe with a sphere of fixed stars.” Continued

//But how can I say I am good if I don't care enough about other people to let them find God too.//

Yeah, there is a difference between leading and pushing. It is a subtle and fine difference.

//Saving them, yes that's part of my beliefs. But on the other hand living with Him while on this side of eternity.//

Yeah, I think your problem is that assuming everybody needs saving. If I might use an analogy... it's as though we're all at the beach, with many of us happily bobbing about in the water of non-Christian belief, practising some quite Buddhist meditation on our inflated inner-tube, or doing a bit of atheist surfing, or maybe just wading about in uncertainty, quite happy and unconcerned. And you, good bloke that you are, are doing some volunteer lifesaving... and you see all these people in those deep, dangerous waters where there could be sharks and rip currents and deadly marine stingers and all the awful things that can happen at sea, and you see them waving their arms, and you think they must be in trouble and need saving. So you bravely plunge into the surf to save them.

But here's the thing: they're waving, not drowning. Everybody knows that if you're in trouble at the beach you just stick your hand straight up and don't wave it about. All those happy people waggling their hands that you think are in dire trouble are just waving at you guys back on the beach of Christianity, just to say 'hi', or 'you guys built a mad sand sculpture', or maybe 'come on in, the water's lovely'. And while you're so helpfully, and with the best of all possible intentions, trying to save those who don't need it... well, maybe you're too busy to see the desperate little hands sticking feebly upright. The ones that belong to the people who really do need a bit of Christian charity. But maybe not in the form of invitations to convert... they don't feed you when you're hungry. Do you guys have the Vinnies in Colorado?