//You could start with Innocent* VIII (1484-92) and go forward or back.

*Now there's a great name for a Cassocked (male fowl)man.//

Best Pope names:

* St. Hilarius (461-468). Apparently he wasn't all that funny.
* Lando (913-914). One for the Star Wars fans :)
* And an honourable mention for Sixtus V (1585-1590). Unfortunately, he was the last Sixtus we had. I think it's about time we had a Sixtus VI. And a Papal decree that his name must always be pronounced in a Kiwi accent.

Oh Toni you poor thing... you sound like a lost sheep...Baaa...attending so many churches...Won't any of them have you?...Perhaps if you didn't snore during the service they may accept you better or maybe they are just looking for higher quality parishioners these days......lmao

So one of Jesus' biggest failings was that he didn't outlaw slavery. Even though some Bibles changed the word slavery to manservant...It was slavery still.

According to Mad Moses slavery was a horrid thing for the Israelites in Egypt but hey it was fine when the Israelites kept slaves...

The Passover Meal

Was the last supper the Passover meal?

Matthew 26:17-20 Now the first (day) of the (feast of) unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

And he said, Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith, My time is at hand; I will keep the passover at thy house with my disciples.

And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover.

Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

This is confirmed in

Mark 14:12-16...AND....Luke 22:7-15

BUT in John it has been changed. The passover hadn't started and wasn't started until after his appearance before Pilate the next day

John 18:28 Then led they Jesus from Caiaphas unto the hall of judgment: and it was early; and they themselves went not into the judgment hall, lest they should be defiled; but that they might eat the passover.

John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

Who changed what and why were the changes made? They both can't be correct.

Why do believers read over these massive problems?

More to come...

What have we learnt from Self-Opinionated2 so far ?

*. the Bible is rubbish, or at least the Old Testament is - many of us would agree, and even believers would understand that the stories are illustrations of god's power, etc., and reinforcements of his/her idea of right and wrong, good and bad, etc. - how to live the good life;

*. Moses was some sort of bastard, the embodiment of evil, 3,200 years ago, and his evil influence continues to this day;

*. much of the New Testament is completely true, or at least is a guide to the principles of a real person called Jesus. The NT is a complete break from the OT.

As an atheist, I can't make out much more than that, and maybes an atheist I shouldn't care one way or the other. But I'm interested in how people believe, what drives them, and in looking for the good in people, even believers :)

Joe

The Loudmouth/windbags think discussing a topic without providing the evidence from the source document is a sensible way to debate...lmao

The Passover...Believers believing lies that demeans GOD!

Believers simply miss the holes because of their in depth study methods...lmao

The Passover is an absolute insult to GOD...and yet it is celebrated...(another insult to GOD)...in many institutions all over the world.

So you believers celebrate a lie by Moses which says that GOD murdered all the firstborn of Egypt because he had a pecker fight with Pharoah...Psychopaths celebrate murder!

Imagine the obscenity to GOD of that simple concept...

If people believe GOD really killed all the firstborn of Egypt believing the lies of psychopath Moses...what do they really feel about their loving GOD?

Here is a little exercise for you...Type a list of everyone you know...Pretend you aree in Egypt in Moses time...Now document all the names of all the firstborn....All the names on that list the Bible alleges GOD murdered. Yep babies, old people, the lot.

Now imagine that for every person's family in your street, then town then city.

How many people do you believe GOD would have killed in your neighborhood?

Exodus 11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

Even servants lost their children and babies....REALLY? Is this how GOD operates? What had the animals done wrong? NOTE: ALL the firstborn of beasts!

Exodus 12:12 For I..(GOD)..will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

And GOD repeats himself...WHAT?...Did GOD forget that he had said the same thing in the previous chapter?

But wait - GOD executed his judgement against ALL THE GODS OF EGYPT? How can you execute judgement on, in the eyes of his people and him, non-existent beings?

Embarrassing! Cont....

Self-Op2,

It as a custom in many early societies, pre-agricultural and agricultural, to sacrifice one's first-born son. Hence the Abrahamic and Isaac story, and the famous burning bush. In some versions, Ishmael - as Abraham's actual first-born son - was the one to be killed, but his mother spirited him off to - 2,600 years later - become the ancestor of Muhammad (a genealogy of begats would be nice).

In many societies of course, they shifted to killing off the first-born daughter, or a local virgin (viz. Stravinsky's 'The Rite of spring), and then, naturally, seized on the idea of all the men rooting one of the local virgins in order to bring about the fertility of their fields (and then, of course, all the men rooting all the local virgins: that's progress). I dunno, it's worth a try :)

Of course, the killing of first-borns, even in Jesus' day, was a standard imperialist tactic to terrorise the subject populations. probably worked too.

So why are you picking on Moses ? Are you part of some secret sect which worships Ramses ? Why does he get up your nose much ? The Golden Tablets ? Or Tables ? The notion of Commandments ? Because he was actually Egyptian, and illegitimate ? Why not have a go at Jehosaphat, there's a non-achiever ? Well, what DID he do ?

And why pick on god for his forgetfulness ? After all, he's lived from everlasting to ....... He must have other worlds to pre-occupy him, not just this one, which has been around for only 6021 years. Give the poor bastard a break.

Oops ! Aaaaaaaargh !

Joe

Op2,

Congratulations; I see that you managed to give a couple of references, see it's not so hard after all.