The Forum > General Discussion > Should we change the date of Australia Day?
Should we change the date of Australia Day?
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Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 7:09:43 AM
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Is Mise, Paul, that's more like it, if we're looking at evidence then we can have a discussion.
Is Mise if your friend is the man in this photo then his claims are impossible: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Bergen_Belsen_Liberation_03.jpg The western allies didn't liberate any "death camps" so he couldn't have seen gas chambers, no historian claims that Bergen Belsen was an extermination camp and the bodies in the photo are of people who died of Typhus and other diseases in the weeks immediately before liberation. Many of the stories told by the "liberators" have been found to be fraudulent: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-4_Staff.html http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/BostonGlobe131000.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375018/Denis-Avey-broke-Auschwitz-expose-Holocaust-account-insult.html Even Simon Wiesenthal refuted the stories of extermination camps in Germany: http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-9_Staff.html I've also met a man who claimed to have been a British POW and to have seen mass murder at Buchenwald but his claims didn't stand up to even rudimentary scrutiny, he simply wasn't there. Paul, six million is a fact is it? No historian makes such a claim, Professor Raul Hilberg came up with a figure of just over five million, the Yad Vashem institute in Israel claims to have collected some four million reports of Jews perishing during the period of hostilities and in 1979 the Red Cross tracing centre at Bad Arolsen put the death toll from all the camps at just over 271,000. The figure of 350,000 dead in the camps and a refutation of the gas chamber story was published in 2003 by German writer Fritjof Meyer, given that minimising the Holocaust is a serious crime in Germany whic typically attracts a five year prison sentence and knowing that even though Meyer was reported to the Police he was not prosecuted we can reasonably call that the most up to date, unchallenged death toll. Here's some more food for thought on "Holocaust Amnesia Day": http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2014/01/holocaust-amnesia-day.html Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 7:59:44 AM
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Just like those who believe the Roman Empire never existed, Jay, because of your own blinkered ideology you will never believe the 'Holocaust' took place, or at worse it was nothing more than a few accidental deaths.
Nice play with the facts there Jay. "Even Simon Wiesenthal refuted the stories of extermination camps in Germany" YES, they were in Poland and other places. Reading Is Mise post, he is NOT claiming the bulldozer driver shown clearing away the bodies, had seen the bodies (not the same bodies), the gas chambers and the crematoria. Those sightings are attributed to Lord Russell of Liverpool, and not the bulldozer driver who is unnamed. although he could be Lord Russell, who on some other occasions did claim to see bodies, gas chambers and crematoria. Since we are posting links: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/cclist.html <<There are those among us, who say the Holocaust didn't happen at all. Or maybe a few people were killed, but not millions. Historical facts have proven time and time again, that Nazi Germany, planned and implemented their plan to rid Europe of those whom they considered sub-human. Accurate numbers for exactly how many humans died as a result of the Nazi plans are simply not available and never will be. Research by some of the worlds most able historians place the number of Holocaust victims murdered by government policy to be not less than twelve million and probably more.>> From the above. Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 9:09:57 AM
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Paul,
I don't subscribe to any ideology or hold any beliefs. Able historians they say? Who exactly are the historians alleging 12 million plus murders? I know the Soviet propagandists Vassily Grossman and Ilya Ehreburg made some pretty wild claims about 20 million people being gassed at Auschwitz but any information provided by the Soviets can be taken with a grain of salt. The British intelligence services knew about the massacres in Ukraine and the Baltic states because the Einsatzgruppen reported them back to the SS command and they had to file requisition orders for trucks, fuel, ammunition etc for the purpose of executing prisoners. http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html It's pretty interesting to not that the SS report recruiting eighty British prisoners of war for duties as "Capos" in Auschwitz, it makes you wonder about the cock and bull stories told by people like Dennis Avey, were they really POW's or did they flip and work for the SS only coming up with these remarkable stories of survival to save their own necks at the end of the war? The point is the SS didn't make any attempt to hide the massacres and executions, they reported the daily death toll in the camps back to HQ and some of the commanders were proud of the number of "partisans" they'd given "special treatment", if anything it's likely that they exaggerated the numbers to boost their stocks with the bosses. There were some pretty kinky people working in the camps and in the Einsatzgruppen and the long prisoners themselves were mostly hardcore desperados so there's no doubt that bad things happened but it wasn't a secret that there were large numbers of deaths and executions on the Eastern front. Imagine yourself as a law abiding Polish Jew plucked from your nice middle class life in Budapest or Paris and dumped in a prison camp full of sex offenders, fanatical Communist thugs and recidivist criminals out in the Polish countryside, how do you think you'd have coped? Could you have survived? Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 10:01:18 AM
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Dear Paul,
It is important to remember that both the Nazis and the Communists had committed unheard of cruelties. Concentration camps - on both sides of the front - operated at a high pitch prior and during the war years. While the USSR policy of mass murder preceded that of Nazi Germany, most notably with the artificial Ukrainian Famine of 1932-33, the wholesale destruction of Russian peasantry, and later of the peasantry and intelligentsia in the occupied territories as well, the Nazis soon matched Soviet terror with their wholesal slaughter of Jews, Gypsies, and others, in equal numbers, if not proportions of their populations. As stated in "The New KGB" :- "There is no dispute about the enormity of HItler's holocaust. But it is equally important to be aware of the accomplishments of the Soviet Secret Police, which brought death to at least four times as many Russians, Poles, Jews, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Japanese, Koreans, Chinese, Gypsies, and Romanians as Hitler did in his eleven years as a leader of the '1,000-year Reich' ". Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 10:06:15 AM
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Absolutely Foxy, Stalin was every bit as bad as Hitler. That is no excuse for the actions of Hitler and his Nazi henchmen. As a so called "lefty" I would never try to excuse the actions of Stalin, by pointing to Hitler, there is no excuse. Like Hitler the best thing Stalin done for the world was die.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 11:17:59 AM
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Among the many interesting people that I've met over the years were a few survivors of the Holocaust and I served, for a time, with a former Royal Engineer who was the bulldozer driver shown clearing away the bodies in one of the illustrations from Lord Russell of Liverpool's book, 'The Scourge of the Swastica'.
Of course some may say that anyone could have been the driver in the picture, his face was covered by a cloth, as some protection from the smell, however his hardback copy of the book was signed, simply 'Edward Russell' and to him personally and with thanks.
He had talked to many survivors, seen the bodies, the gas chambers and the crematoria and I believe every word that he and the survivors said.