The Forum > General Discussion > Should we change the date of Australia Day?
Should we change the date of Australia Day?
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Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 1:13:27 PM
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cont'd ...
The same applies to those who try to deny the history of Indigenous-Settler relations. As cited from Historian Henry Reynolds earlier in this discussion - it is now possible to explore the past by means of large number of books, articles, films, novels, songs, and paintings. Many voices have filled out the space once claimes by Stanner's Great Australian Silence. And, as Reynolds points out that: "But knowing brings burdens which can be shirked by those living in ignorance. With knowledge (in this case) the question is no longer what we know but what we are now to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with." It will continue to perplex us for many years to come. Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 1:20:06 PM
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Foxy,
The testimony of returned allied soldiers is extremely unrelaible. Curtis Whiteway testifies that he and his unit over ran the Hadamar T4 facility near Lemburg Germany in 1945 and saw on their approach a vile cloud of smoke coming from the crematory ovens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ws70JtNLKs Trouble is the T4 program ended in 1941 and the Hadamar hospital's two single muffle Koris crematory furnaces were dismantled that year. Whiteway probably got his information from a newsreel like this, which also makes the same mistake: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROSQvafGS-I Hadamar was being used as a hospital at the end of the war, it's not surprising that there were thousands of corpses buried there, but note that they're all interred in individual marked graves? There are numerous examples of this sort of tall story telling by veterans but it sank to new lows in the 1990's with outright fraud and fabrications such as the film "Liberators: Fighting on Two Fronts in World War II" http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-4_Staff.html Foxy have you ever seen the other photos of the liberation of Bergen-Belsen? There's a gallery here: http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=10 There's a few pretty skinny, sick looking people in the actual photos but clearly the "walking skeletons" were a minority and the piles of corpses were those of people who'd died of disease immediately before liberation. Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 2:20:51 PM
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Jay,
'....There's a few pretty skinny, sick looking people in the actual photos but clearly the "walking skeletons" were a minority and the piles of corpses were those of people who'd died of disease immediately before liberation....". Why were there so many deaths from disease, lack of duty of care? Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 30 January 2015 3:04:24 PM
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Is mise,
You could put it that way, Belsen was designed to accomodate 10,000 people, by early 1945 it contained an estimated 60,000 inmates, an estimated 35,000 subsequently died as a result of Typhus, Dysentry, Cholera etc and all were weakened by starvation. Look at the photo gallery and understand that those poor people had lived like that for months, with little food, no medicine whatsoever and on top of that outbreaks of disease and the harsh European winter conditions. It's hard for us to imagine just how bad the situation was in Germany in 1945, there were piles of bodies everywhere, this photo of a cremation pyre is from Dresden: http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/germany/dresden/images/dresden-pyre-01.jpg It's also worth noting that many of the concentration camps were abandoned by the Germans days or weeks before liberation but the inmates had stayed put, the fact is that there was nowhere to go and conditions outside the wire were often just as bad as inside. It's no wonder the liberating forces were outraged and horrified by what they found but Europe was totally devastated, there were starving, disease afflicted people roaming all over and atrocities against civilians were common. Here's a rather disgusting film showing the mass murder of Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia in 1945, though I really don't recommend watching it if you're easily upset: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6IFfQdM7EI Context: http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/documentary-to-show-post-war-mass-murder-of-german-civilians-in-prague Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 5:21:12 PM
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For those like Jay who doubt the Memoirs
written by notables like Primo Levi, Viktor Frankl, and Elie Wiesel, to name just a few, of their times in the concentration camps. Who doubt what Hitler's architect Albert Speer (who designed the gas chambers in the concentration camps) and confirmed what occurred there in his memoirs, "Inside The Third Reich." And who can Google photographic accounts that are available on the web - and yet chooses to pay no heed. It's best not to waste time arguing and worse - give them a platform to argue from. Survivor accounts tell the story. Their eyes saw what no one should witness. Our efforts today instead of arguing about the numbers of dead, how they died, and whether some of them were not as "skeletal" as they should have been. It should focus on making our children and grandchildren more humane. And raising them to be decent human beings so that we never again have to experience these monstors,skilled psychopaths or educated Eichmanns. As for you Jay - you can take your websites - fold them five times, and stick them where the sun doesn't shine! Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 6:05:44 PM
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the British, American, and Russian forces, numerous
concentration and death camps were discovered and
filmed and are part of archival records.
Thousands of soldiers who witnessed the nightmare,
passed on their experiences to others for the public
record.
There were
news reporters and camera-men who recorded the
nightmare, all of them bore witness to a historical fact.
So today's Holocaust deniers who have never witnessed
or experienced the events on record should not be
taken seriously.
Today, we can know a great deal about those times. It is now
possible to explore the past by means of a large number
of books - including the Memoirs of Hitler's architect -
Albert Speer, "Inside The Third Reich," whose testimony
to what happened is crystal clear. There are not only books,
but documents from Nazi records, articles, films, and
archival material available for those wanting to know
the truth. One can visit museums, and libraries, and
government records, (Germans kept meticulous records)
to find the evidence. The evidence is available and it totally
brings the deniers allegations into disrepute.
No more needs to be said.