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The Forum > General Discussion > Should we change the date of Australia Day?

Should we change the date of Australia Day?

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We celebrate "Australia Day," on the 26th January
each year and for some people this has been a bone
of contention - especially our First People - the
Aborigines many of whom refer to that day as
"Invasion-Day." The day of the arrival of the First
Fleet.

Would it be more appropriate to change the date when
the first Australian Government was sworn in before a
huge crowd in Sydney's Centennial Park on 1st January
1901, the first day of the new century?

What do you think?
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 22 January 2015 5:17:02 PM
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Like many of these opinions that affect aborigines just will not be
relevant in a few hundred years.
Even now often you cannot recognise an aborigine as such.
The only other relevant day would be 1st January 1901.
However that pretends the previous 121 years never happened.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:05:00 PM
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The catch is we already have a holiday on 1st January, so I imagine no-one would be in favour of this.

Actually, maybe there is a benefit in keeping Jan 26 as Australia Day/Invasion Day. It is a reminder that the origin of 'Australia' was not neat and simple, worthy of unthinking patriotism, but a complex event with winners and losers. Recognising this complexity is necessary to a clear view of the strengths (many) and weaknesses (still a few) of Australia, which is the basis of true community and reconciliation.

While there are good reasons for celebrating 1 January, if this became Australia day, it would be too easy to sweep under the carpet the complex consequences of 26 January 1888.
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:12:17 PM
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Re Bazz' comment. Everywhere in the world people are still holding grievances and fighting battles that are hundreds of years old. Aboriginal issues will still be with us hundreds of years in the future. But what we do now can help temper the emotions, so that grievances are put aside and we live together with the best of both worlds (plus all the other worlds that have joined us since 1788).
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:17:39 PM
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‘morning Foxy,

Should we stop celebrating Christmas, Easter, Labor Day, change our National flag, change our National Anthem, change our constitution to embrace more minorities, become a republic, institute a Global Warming Day and incarcerate deniers, hand over what’s left of our sovereignty to the UN, cancel all treaties with the USA’s evil empire, disband our military, move our capital to Hobart, nationalize all our banks, move the ABC to parliament house, ban elections and base policy priorities based on “twitter” traffic.

Anything else you would like Australian’s to bend over for?
Posted by spindoc, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:34:58 PM
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Dear Bazz,

To many Australians - especially younger ones -
Australia Day is merely a holiday. A day off
from work.

The historian Henry Reynolds in his book,
"Why Weren't We told?" has pointed out
that "Black-armband history is often distressing,
but it does enable us to know and understand the
incubus which burdens us all."

I agree with Cossomby that the history of our first
people will very much still be with us in the future.
And should be taught to young Australians.

Similar sentiments are often expressed by contributors
who write to the newspapers. One example given by
Reynolds was of someone writing that he thought it was
high time, that this aspect of our past became
"more fully accepted and appropriately commemorated
and widely understood by young Australians," who
could "try to make amends for the past by fostering
reconciliation between Aboriginal Australians and
themselves."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:44:05 PM
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Dear Cossomby,

I had forgotten that January 1st was already taken as
New Years Day, and a public Holiday. And I really
don't have a problem personally in keeping January
26th as Australia Day. However, many prominent
Australian Aboriginal people feel quite strongly
about Australia Day falling on that date and look
upon it as a "whites only celebrations."

For example, Mick Dodson, Aboriginal Law Professor and
Australian of the Year, 2009 has this to say:

"90% of people are saying Australia Day should be inclusive
of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
I firmly believe that some day we will choose a date that
is comprehensive and inclusive for all Australians."

And -

Dr Lowitja O'Donoghue, Aboriginal Australian of the Year, 1984 -
stated that -

"I would however make a strong plea for a change of date.
Let us find a day on which we can all feel included, in
which we can all participate equally, and can celebrate our
common Australian identity."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 12:57:07 PM
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Dear Spindoc,

Most of us are always "bending over backwards,"
trying to be accomodating. Whether its at work,
at home, with family, friends, work colleagues,
and so on. That's life. One learns at a very
early age to be flexible, tolerant, respectful,
and considerate of others. Still, perhaps these
are not concepts you're very familiar with
going by your post.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:08:10 PM
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Rudd has gone, Foxy. You are stuck in a time warp.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:08:22 PM
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Well Foxy, I don't know but if a couple of hundred years is not enough
what about 1000 years, will there be a recognisable aborigine in
existance then ?
I had better be careful, this is where Andrew Bolt got into trouble.
I cannot make any further remarks along that line as it is illegal.

errr hmmm errr what to say, the politically correct have gagged us.
Do the aborigines wish to go back to living as they did pre 1788 ?
I doubt it. As they do not seem to want to do that then 26/1/1788 is as
significant a date to them as it is to us.
Indeed even more so !
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:13:06 PM
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Why have it at all?

Let people take holidays when THEY want.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:18:01 PM
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Dear Bazz,

I believe that the Aborigines will survive -
afterall the Jews have for many centuries and
are still going strong. Also -
many Aborigines live in remote areas and
off-shore islands where the Europeans have
very little interest. Also, Aboriginal culture
and languages are now being taught in schools
and this will continue as more and more Aboriginal
people become part of the mainstream and included
in our society.

Andrew Bolt got into trouble because he made factual
errors. Do you think that's what you're doing?
As for the "politically correct" trying to gagg us.
No. they are not the ones trying to gagg us - the
Abbott government is with what journalists can write
and say and so on.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:31:14 PM
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You are correct, onthebeach. Rudd has gone, years ago, and thank goodness.

So why are YOU still so obsessed with him that you bring him up every time someone posts something you don't like? Why are YOU living in the past?

Weird.
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:38:04 PM
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Dear otb,

Me, stuck in a time-warp?
On the contrary.

The historian, Henry Reynolds explained the
reasons behind his book, "Why Weren't We Told,"
was due to the fact that:

"Many Australians felt that they had been
poorly served by their teachers and by the nation's
historians. They are angry that they weren't told
the truth about the past and feel they were denied
information, interpretation and understanding."

"It is now possible to explore the past by means of
large numbers of books, articles, films, novels,
songs and paintings. Many voices have filled out
the space once claimed by Stanner's Great Australian
Silence."

"We can know a great deal about the history of Indigenous-
Settler relations. But knowing brings burdens which can
be shirked by those living in ignorance. With knowledge
the question is no longer what we know but what we are
now to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal
with. It will continue to perplex us for many years
to come."
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:42:31 PM
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I think any possible amends for the past have long been made, the first big plus was the arrival of European Culture, particularly the concept of money, health care and living in houses, just for starters.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:55:37 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

I wonder how the Irish would feel if their
history would be totally re-written?

I believe you're Irish.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 1:59:27 PM
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"I think any possible amends for the past have long been made, the first big plus was the arrival of European Culture, particularly the concept of money, health care and living in houses, just for starters."

That would have been fine if Aborigines had been given access to money, health care, and living in houses.

Instead their resource base was destroyed by sheep etc., they were given rations not money, diseases to which they had no resistance, not health care, and shacks not real houses (with the infectious diseases and no health care they would have been better off keeping moving rather than stay in a house).

There were a number of Aborigines who early on went to school, and did well, but they quickly leant that an Aborigine who spoke English, became Christian and adopted European culture, was not welcome among Europeans.
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 2:51:07 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

Here is a link that gives a Summary of Australian
Indigenous Health Facts:

http://www.healthinfonet.ecu.edu.au/health-facts/summary
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 3:09:42 PM
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Habitual old stirrers can try to politicise Australia Day and foster differences if they like. It is a free country. Of course the stirrers could take one day off, leaving 364 days to play politics and make life miserable with their whiteanting.

Everyone else will be out celebrating with great joy, passion and dignity. Yay for Australia Day!
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 23 January 2015 3:17:47 PM
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God I get sick of PC garbage.

Even in the worst most alcohol full rotting aboriginal settlement today, the life expectancy is almost double that of 1770 aboriginals. The Aboriginals were definitely the biggest winners of white settlement.

If you can believe any of the black armband history, & the census, their population has increased more in the last 40 years than it did in their first 40 thousand years.

Of course "prominent" aboriginals will try to keep this garbage going. How the hell else to they keep the gravy train running, & the trough full for them & their kin. The stolen generation was almost as big a fraud as global warming is today.

I don't give a damn when we have Australia day, or even if we have it or not. The way the country is now, less than 50% of the population is likely to respect Australia day, so why bother.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 23 January 2015 3:28:03 PM
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Whites should observe May 25, birthdate of William Nash who is thought to be the first White child born on the continent, the "Australians" can celebrate whatever has meaning to them since the word Australian no longer has any relevance to my people.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 23 January 2015 3:30:41 PM
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I nominate Paul Hogans birthday..the 8th of October for Australia Day
Posted by Crowie, Friday, 23 January 2015 3:32:36 PM
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OTB: "Habitual old stirrers can try to politicise Australia Day and foster differences if they like. It is a free country. Of course the stirrers could take one day off, leaving 364 days to play politics and make life miserable with their whiteanting. Everyone else will be out celebrating with great joy, passion and dignity. Yay for Australia Day!"

My view is to keep Australia Day as is, because it's a great day (and I intend to go to the local Australia Day breakfast) but it also reminds us that Australia's history is complex, good and bad, and we need to remember and recognise this in order bring everyone together 'to celebrate with great joy, passion and dignity'.

If that makes me a habitual old stirrer in OTB's view, well, tough!
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 4:17:55 PM
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God I get sick of ignorant, racist garbage.

1. What was the life expectancy of Aborigines in 1770? Basically we don't know. There are plenty of elderly people in recorded prehistoric Aboriginal burial grounds, and surprisingly few children. The assumption that pre-European life expectancy was very low is just that, an assumption - they were primitive so they couldn't have lived long (maybe about the same as the British in 1778?). After European arrival life expectancy plummetted, and it has more recently been rising for a range of reasons. One factor is that people today are genetically tougher, descended from the relatively few survivors of smallpox, measles, flu, TB, venereal disease etc. that hit the Aboriginal population in the first 150 years. (The same thing applies to us Europeans, we are descendants of those who survived the medieval plagues such as the Black Death).

2. The identified Aboriginal and Torres Strait population in 2011 was 548,370 people. Estimates at contact for Aborigines are 300,000 to 1, 000,000 depending on how it's calculated. So today is roughly same as 1788. 40,000 years is about 1600 generations; archaeological evidence suggests intensification of resource use (some say agriculture) and rising populations at about 4000 years ago (possibly to much the same as at contact). I haven't got the figures at hand, but this means estimates of the total number of Aboriginal people are multi-millions.

3. So it's not garbage, regardless of your opinion of prominent Aborigines. The stolen generations is not garbage either, but that's for another post.

So: 'you don't give a damn when we have Australia day, or even if we have it or not. The way the country is now, less than 50% of the population is likely to respect Australia day, so why bother.'

If that's the way you feel, seems to me the problem is you, not other Australians, prominent Aborigines. or me (I like Australia day).
Posted by Cossomby, Friday, 23 January 2015 4:49:33 PM
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No one is forcing anyone to salute, drink beer or eat a sausage sandwich. You can be sure if you change the date many will find it clashes with some other day of 'significance'. Basically I don't think most Australians care except for the aboriginal industry trying to cash in on victimhood. I was asked today by a blackfella how I was going to celebrate Australia day. He seemed very happy when I told him I was joining with my Phillipino and African friends who are becoming aussies.
Posted by runner, Friday, 23 January 2015 5:31:28 PM
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Dear Cossomby,

My husband and I shall be spending Australia Day
with my frail, elderly mum, and the residents of her
aged-care facility with a special barbeque lunch,
followed by a game of Bingo and afterwards a
screening of an Australian-film in the lounge.

I read your last post and it's not easy having to deal
with such pugnacity on a public forum and (as Poirot
stated on another discussion) - "one gets weary of
wiping foaming spittle" flung at you, "off the computer
screen."

However, this is an important issue that needs to be
opened up for discussion.

The following link provides some perspectives for
discussion (whether we agree with them or not), they are
worth discussing:

The link tells us that "Most countries celebrate the
day they gained independence from colonial rule.
Australians celebrate when it began."

The argument continues - that - "January 26, 1788 isn't a day
to be happy about. It was the day British forces
landed at Sydney Cove and claimed the land,
dispossessing the First Australians."

We are told that, "We cannot change our history, as
much as we might desire it. We cannot ignore our
history, because it has made us. But we can change our
future."

The writer Thomas Keneally agrees with this.
Let's get the discussion happening!

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/we-can-do-better-than-january-26-20130120-2d10n.html
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 23 January 2015 5:42:08 PM
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Australia Day is Grumps Day Off!

Maybe it should be re-named that, 'Grumps Day Off' and there could be efforts to extend the good vibes to more days of the year.
Posted by onthebeach, Friday, 23 January 2015 5:42:13 PM
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I think we should celebrate the first fleet.
Governor Phillip was a worthy father to the nation that has became Australia. His dealings with the natives were compassionate and wise and his treatment of the convicts and marines was exemplary. He was a great man with enlightened ideas and a genuine belief in fairness.

What happened to the original inhabitants of this land was not down to Governor Phillip and the First Fleet.
Posted by mikk, Friday, 23 January 2015 7:39:41 PM
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All my aboriginal mates and all the aboriginals that I have ever known, except for a few activists, are bloody glad that the British came here before other Europeans.
I haven't met an Aboriginal hunter for 60 years that didn't prefer a rifle or shot gun for downing roos, pigs or emus.
Sure they got the raw end of the stick but today they have health care, unemployment relief and subsidized housing.
I also haven't met one of the so called 'stolen generation' that wasn't glad that he/she was taken from the environment in which they then lived.

A successful Aboriginal business woman that I knew in Sydney escaped from Arnhem Land when she was in her early twenties, she already had four children, having been married off when she was 12.
Once away from the tribe she found employment with a family in Nth Queensland and got an education.
She was all for European culture as a way of life that was far preferable to what she had to look forward to in what was then a closed territory.
Aboriginal people are far better off today than they were in 1788.
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 23 January 2015 10:21:42 PM
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Australia Day should be celebrated when we finally cut the apron strings from the 'Mother Country'.

I have never felt comfortable with all the nationalistic rubbish that goes with this date every year , with mindless morons cruising the streets in big cars festooned with Australian flags and stickers bearing such tasteful slogans as ' F### off! We're full!".

How anyone can be proud of a date when a foreign country thousands of miles away sends in soldiers and prisoners to take over a land that was already inhabited is beyond me. We need to grow up and move on from that part of our history.

I am proud to have been born an Australian, but I will wait until we become a republic before I get too excited about Australia Day.
Posted by Suseonline, Saturday, 24 January 2015 3:18:37 AM
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We are what we are, and to simply stare back into the past and declare, all is rosy in the garden is delusional. Aboriginal people rightly refer to 26th January 1788 as 'Invasion Day'. For 40 to 60,000 years prior to the arrival Arthur and his fleet of misfits, scallywags and odd bods, the people we doing just fine. Aboriginals without being asked, gave away a lot, a whole continent in fact, in return for the European privileges which in a generally meager way were doled out to them, and in many regards are still being doled out.
Like indigenous people the world over, when the European arrived with his superiors fire power, the Aboriginal had to submit, or be totally exterminated like the Mahicans. In this day of enlightenment, some 227 years later, should we be, to quote Susie "mindless morons cruising the streets in big cars festooned with Australian flags and stickers bearing such tasteful slogans as ' F### off! We're full!". No! We should be looking to the future and those things we can do to make for a better Australia for all, and ultimately a better world tomorrow.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 January 2015 6:43:07 AM
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@Paul,

<<Aboriginal people rightly refer to 26th January 1788 as 'Invasion Day>>

Could never have guessed that Paul is a Greenie!
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 24 January 2015 6:50:38 AM
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SPQR, are you one of histories revisionists, from an Aboriginal and historical perspective 26th January 1788 can not be seen as anything other than Invasion Day. However to satisfy what might be a rather uncomfortable feeling for you, we will declare 26th January 1788 as the day ice cream was invented in Australia, and from now on 26th January will be refereed to as National Ice Cream Day. Satisfied?
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 January 2015 7:43:53 AM
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Paul,

The Torres Strait Islanders do have a gripe, 1788 and all that saw the beginning of the end of them hunting mainlanders for sport and a bit of spare tucker.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 January 2015 8:06:18 AM
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@Paul

<<SPQR, are you one of histories revisionists...>>

No Paul, you are on the side of the revisionists. There never was ONE aboriginal people. There were a host of different contending tribes who came in widely dispersed migrations. This Aboriginal people this is a modern revisionist lefty invention.

<< ice cream >> Apt you should mention that i saw the climate Greenies handing free ice creams on one of the recent election days ;)
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 24 January 2015 8:06:31 AM
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"1788 and all that saw the beginning of the end of them hunting mainlanders for sport and a bit of spare tucker." and it also seen the introduction of public hanging and floggings along with the spread of an assortment of diseases, smallpox, tuberculosis and venereal disease with numerous others. While the European population had a strong resistance to diseases such as bronchitis, measles, scarlet fever, chicken pox and even the common cold – exposure to these diseases was often fatal to Aboriginal populations.
Even before Europeans began arriving in the Melbourne area, up to a third of the population of the eastern Australian tribes had been killed by an epidemic of smallpox that spread down from Sydney. Those ungrateful sods!
The whole invasion thing can be all justified by the words of SPQR "There never was ONE aboriginal people. There were a host of different contending tribes who came in widely dispersed migrations" Yes so what is the point, did it give us the justification to slip in the back door. Australia today is made of of some 179 nationalities, does that make it ripe for invasion by the Chinese on the grounds there is no ONE Australian.

Could never have guessed that SPQR is NOT a Greenie!
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 January 2015 8:51:41 AM
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Paul,
The smallpox epidemic which depopulated most of southern Australia originated in Indonesia and occurred before White settlement, that's been known for a long time now and was acknowledged in the TV series "First Australians".
The Victorian tribes had endemic non venereal Syphillis and Yaws,the sedentary tribes suffered many of the same gastro intestinal complaints, coughs, colds and ailments as Europeans and the early settlers suffered a worse infant mortality rate than England right up to the early 20th century, they weren't immune to the old world diseases.
Every study I've read on the reasons for the death of Victoria's Aboriginal population talks about despair as the most serious problem, the Aboriginals went into steep decline after the pre contact epidemics and basically stopped having children, the problems brought on by contact with Whites were just the last nail in the coffin, so to speak.

On "Invasion Day", I think it's a distasteful concept for the reason that it places Aboriginals in the position of losers and Whites as winners, it's fine if you're a White Lefty with grandiose fantasies about "liberating" Aboriginals but it doesn't do much to promote ideals of equality
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:17:52 AM
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Paul,
<<diseases yada yada yada>>
Little doubt each new migration of peoples brought new diseases –include dare I emphasize each successive migration of Aboriginals …and their dingos ...but you Greenies have the advantage in that no records were kept of such things prior to white immigration.

<<There never was ONE aboriginal people…Yes so what is the point,>>
The point Paul, is that the whole fantasy (much loved by those on the left) that there was this monolithic group of noble savages living in harmony with each other and nature is just a lefty beat-up designed to help them foster the guilt industry.
Posted by SPQR, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:18:13 AM
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Dearest Foxy,

“One” has to wonder why such expressions as
“my husband and I”, “shall” and the collective
“we” have the Royal Assent? Or is this an adopted
style in order to engender an impression of both authority
superior education?

As for switching ones metaphor from “bending
over” (compliance with proscribed PC), and
substituting ones own metaphor to
“bending over backwards” (as in accommodation
within work, family, home and friends), this has not
gone unnoticed.

One has to assume, does one not, that this might
have nicely avoided responding the real intent of
ones post to raise once again, some of the PC
perspectives one really wishes to use to provoke
some and to “dog whistle” the rest.

One also has to wonder if the Australian Movie
that the Royal “we” “shall” watch on Australia Day
might be “Rabbit Proof Fence” or
“The Stolen Generations”, just to reinforce ones
illusionary perspectives that such events did actually
take place.

My wife and I have often pondered if the variety
of sustainable PC topics might be getting a tad too
tired and narrow for one, which might explain the desperation
for yet another airing of ones obsessions.

Whilst we are acutely aware of the real significance of
Australia day to real Australians, who celebrate this anniversary
privately and thoughtfully, “we” often muse at the propensity
of some to overegg their celebratory intentions in order to
convince others of their genuine Australian values.

This issue of Australian values is particularly distasteful
when one has just launched a thread to question those very values.

One wishes one that the day spent with ones family, a BBQ, Bingo
and a “spiffing” Australian movie will be rewarding and will
also avoid any contact with the “pugnacity and foaming spittle”
of the proletariat.

Happy Australia Day.
Posted by spindoc, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:18:13 AM
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Spindoc,
Liberal morality, pictured:
http://kcsportsnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/dumpster+fire.jpg
As I've said often enough, the world of Left vs Right is the world of magic, you need miracles and mysterious magical energies to make all the moving parts work and even then they only run along the horizontal plane, like a bobbin in a loom.
The centre rejects magic and belief systems and proposes vertical rather than horizontal, left-right movement.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:33:37 AM
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Dick Smith spouting his usual nonsense:
http://www.theage.com.au/comment/the-truth-is-january-26-should-be-first-fleet-day-not-australia-day-20150123-12xb0x.html
There's nothing "amazing" or "deep" about stone age living and calling it a "culture" is just more relativistic hokum.
I wonder if Dick Smith or anyone else can think of a single Aboriginal cultural artifact or practice which could have enhanced the prospects of a society which could safely navigate a fleet of little wooden ships across the globe and start a civilisation from scratch, just with the equipment the carried in their holds?
We owe Aborigines nothing, their contribution to the society we have now has been effectively nil, they're our responsibility in the sense that wards of the state are everyone's responsibility but they're not our equals.
http://i0.wp.com/therightstuff.biz/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/welcome.png
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:51:26 AM
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One more point.
If the old Australian paradigm is no longer relevant then are we as Whites now absolved of all responsibility for the welfare of Aboriginals?
Basically the contrary position boils down to, "We don't want Whites to feel good about their heritage but we don't want them to be able to ignore it either", it's a completely absurd and unworkable ideal.
I think it's inevitable that Australia day and Australian history will quickly cease to be relevant to White people but that's not a win for the Anti Whites and it's a big loss for Aborigines.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 10:05:13 AM
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Foxy,

http://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/australia-day-poses-curious-questions-just-what-are-we-celebrating-on-26-january-20150117-12rp3h.html

"So who the bloody hell are we?

I love Australia Day because it lets me feel patriotic for engaging in the time-honoured Australian traditions of bludging, drinking too much and standing around the barbecue with a group of companionably silent men who are trying to look industrious while their wives do all the work.

But what event are we actually celebrating on January 26? Many Australians remain oblivious to the origins of our national day.

We are not, contrary to popular opinion, recognising the birth of the Australian state, which took place on January 1, 1901. Why on earth would we want to celebrate a public holiday on another perfectly good public holiday?"

Etc....
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 24 January 2015 10:26:27 AM
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Many years back a migrant when I asked why he chose Australia said;
"We came here because of the flag in the corner, it means democracy,
proper laws and courts, no oppression by government".

That is pretty close to what he said from 50 year old memory, but I
have never forgotten it.
I think he came from somewhere in Europe, possibly eastern Europe.

The whingers here might ponder that.
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 24 January 2015 11:00:27 AM
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G'day BAZZ...

What you say is perfectly true, none of us should take for granted what we all have, by living here in Australia. Freedom ! That's what we have, freedom ! I know I'm a whinger about this and that, when I see governments doing things that I don't agree with. The real difference is, I can do something about it ? Be it, 'shout my grievances from the rooftops' ? Camp outside parliament house, as a display of my annoyance with the government ?

Moreover, my family won't need to enquire, as to my whereabouts the next morning, knowing full well that no harm would befall me at the hands of government, simply because I choose to voice my indignity at government malfeasance or something ?

In many other 'enlightened' countries in the world, dissent is never tolerated, those who engage in such activities, activities that we here in Australia all take for granted, simply disappear off the radar forever, never to be seen again ?

Indeed we have an enormous amount to be grateful and thankful for, here in, 'F R E E' old Oz, don't you all agree ?
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 24 January 2015 12:41:02 PM
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Many years back a migrant when I asked why he chose Australia said;
"We came here because of the flag in the corner, it means democracy,
proper laws and courts, no oppression by government".

Well said by that man, Bazz. He just missed the bit about it being a place where anyone who worked hard was welcome, & could do well, but bludgers were not tolerated. That was why I joined the navy 57 years ago.

Now the ratbag green & left want to get rid of that little flag, as it reminds them of what they hate.

We have a county where work is a dirty word, & bludgers are courted for their vote, & given jobs on the public payroll or on building sights. That is why my son just resigned from the navy.

It really is getting to where what is left is hardly worth defending, & certainly not worth dying for.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 24 January 2015 12:52:54 PM
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Dear Poirot,

We are who we are - and that is unique.
At least that's what my mum told me.
And I believed her.

My parents taught me to not take
myself too seriously. The concept of - old
world upper-class snobbery was totally foreign to them.
They believed strongly
in the importance of education, and that
coupled with ability and hard work this lead to success.
They also taught me in the importance of
supporting loved ones, being civil, tolerant
and respectful.

We've always celebrated Australia Day. And this
year will be no exception. My father died of a massive
coronary back in the 1970s. It will be with my
mum (she's in her nineties), and the other elderly
residents, in the aged care facility.
We (my husband and I - who always accompanies me)
are looking forward
to watching the movie with the residents - after their
special lunch. I'm not sure what film will be shown
but the last I heard it was a toss up between
"Strictly Ballroom," "The Castle," "Gallipoli," (Mel Gibson).
or "Muriel's Wedding." Someone also mentioned they'd
like to see - "Crocodile Dundee."
All films the elderly would find entertaining. I'll let you know
which one they finally decide on.

Dear Bazz,

Its part and parcel of some people to whinge.
We've got a sign up in our staff room -

"There are those who work, and those who let them!"

Part of human nature, I guess.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 January 2015 1:19:06 PM
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most of the complainers love the benefits incuding well paid Government jobs but loathe what made this country so great. The loathers have hijacked the education system over the last 40 years.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 24 January 2015 1:47:34 PM
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Dear runner,

What do you think made this country so great -
and why? And should we change the date of
Australia Day?

Thanks.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 January 2015 2:06:54 PM
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Paul,

There is one Australia, all Australians no matter what their background are Citizens; one of the benefits that Aboriginal Australians now enjoy.

We might keep in mind also that Arthur Phillip didn't claim the whole of the island continent, the French had the West.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 January 2015 2:49:53 PM
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"What do you think made this country so great - and why?"

Too easy! The pioneering settlers who broke their backs but rarely their spirits building the infrastructure and producing the food. To that add the democratic tradition, administrative know-how including skills such as engineering, and law from the UK.

All who were liberated from the Nazis and then Russia and fled Europe after WW2 to be given safe sanctuary and a new life in Australia would have been in their knees thanking their Maker for the Australian people. Of course not all of their pampered children would be thankful having had everything given to them, which they came to see as their selfish entitlements, but that is life I suppose.

Australia Day should not be marred by those with an overdeveloped sense of their own entitlement and importance, especially the middle class hipster 'Progressives' with their elitist cultural cringe, to hitch a ride on the occasion be bring their whining to a crescendo.

Everyone but everyone is heartily sick of the whiners with their hands always out for a guvvy freebie. Especially the young employed couples who are already not having the children they want or at the optimal time in young women's lives because they cannot afford to do it. Yet Australia has population growth that a Third World country would be criticised for.

The only reason you want to change the date for Australia Day is to throw a curve ball into the proceedings, to disrupt it for others and your pleading that you support it is unbelievable. You are a poster who habitually sledges Australia Day. -Because of the UK origin of the customs, traditions and law that protect you and your family and deliver a bunch of valued benefits. Hypocrisy.

Foxy, "I had forgotten that January 1st was already taken as
New Years Day, and a public Holiday".

No thought given at all. As if you cared, you just want to stir the possum because of Australia Day.
Posted by onthebeach, Saturday, 24 January 2015 3:24:04 PM
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Australia day is a fairly recent invention, I don't remember anyone observing it when I was growing up and it's probably only because I worked on the traveling bicentennial exhibition in 1988 that I know anything about the occasion at all. We did learn about the first fleet in primary school but it was very much, "when the British came here", which is right, none of those people were Australians and most of them were actually slaves.
Really, Australia day only became a subject of discussion under Howard, so the occasion as it appears today is less than 20 years old and it's certainly not an important tradition of the legacy populations of Old Australia.
It is what it is, a celebration of post 1996 Australia.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 3:57:20 PM
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Jay,

It's not a fairly recent invention at all, the patent model goes way back.
"....Although it was not known as Australia Day until over a century later, records of celebrations on 26 January date back to 1808, with the first official celebration of the formation of New South Wales held in 1818".
Local Aborigines protested on Australia Day in 1938.

When I went to school, 1940-1949, we were well aware of Australia Day and what it meant.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 January 2015 4:17:55 PM
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Is mise,
Where did you grow up? NSW? I don't remember any commemorations growing up in country Victoria, if there had been we'd surely have gone because my parents would go to the opening of a letter.
We had ANZAC day, the parade for the agricultural show in November and an annual trades fair, that was it, the show was the biggest event of the year.
I was 20 in January 1988 and that's when I became aware of Australia day as a distinct event on the calendar, prior to that I'd had nothing to do with it.
According to Wikipedia it wasn't a national holiday until 1994 and not widely observed in all states.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:06:04 PM
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Foxy, it's not a bundle of laughs, but see if you can get hold of "The Water Diviner".

Russell Crowe may not be to everyone's taste as an actor (I reckon he's underrated), but if this film is anything to go by, he's going to be a hell of a director.
Posted by Craig Minns, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:08:40 PM
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'What do you think made this country so great -
and why? And should we change the date of
Australia Day?'

Foxy

freedom of speach
freedom to worship
opportunities for all who want to work
prosperity even for those on the dole
good medical facilities
acceptance of diversity
good housing
great beaches and parks

by and large the adoption of Judea/Christian ethics have produced the high standard of living we enjoy. Many of the settlers turned bushland in food producing areas, barrenness in fruitfulness and built roads, hospitals and schools. Before the settlers arrived the place was very uncivilised unless of course you are a revisionist when it comes to history

No one has given a good reason to change the date for Australia day.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:12:17 PM
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It is interesting how the 'Usual Suspects' on the forum try and evoke their worm and fuzzy feelings when it comes to Australia Day, whilst at the same time totally ignoring the plight of Aboriginal people, as it began in 1788. These feel goods, basically claim the indigenous people got what they deserved, and should be grateful for the generosity of the European and, any failures in the ensuing 200 odd years has been totally the fault of the Aboriginal and his failure to assimilate.

Ironically, these 'Usual Suspects' now days fear a Muslim takeover of Australia, which will destroy their Aussie way of life, if it was to come to pass, like the Aboriginal, you will just have to grin and bear it, and put it down to history.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:35:39 PM
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says Paul as he types on his computer.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:37:38 PM
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"We must be the only country in the world that marks
it's national day not by celebrating its identity,
but by questioning it."
(Ken Boundy).

I've come across a very interesting link that discusses
the topic of "Australia Day."

I'd like to just quote a little from it to broaden
this discuiion further. I'll give the link at the end .

"Australia Day is arguably the most unique national day
in the world, because rather than unite, it seems to
divide Australians into different viewpoints. It is
celebrated on January 26th, which is the anniversary of
the arrival of the First Fleet of criminals in 1788.
Ironically, Australian governments have been reluctant
to acknowledge this history with any prescriptive
symbolism or speeches."

"Without any prescriptive symbolism, the majority of
Australians just use the day to have a barbeque or do
some other pastime that takes advantage of the great things
about the Australian lifestyle."

"While the lack of prescription is embraced by some, it
concerns some of the more sombre-minded Australians who
have interpreted it to mean that the government is
celebrating the invasion of Australia and the dispossession
of Aborigines. These Australians usually use the day to
participate in an Aboriginal protest march or call for the
date to be changed."

The link then goes on to give examples of some typical
views. It continue with :

"For convicts,January 26th 1788 was not a happy time.
It marked the establishment of a penal colony that
suffered some of the worst human rights violations
that the world had ever seen. Women were packed raped by
officers on transport ships and then assigned to free
settlers as if cattle. Men were flogged until their
backbones were exposed to flies ..."

cont'd ...
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 January 2015 5:53:24 PM
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cont'd ...

It's worth reading the entire article.

It ends up by stating that:

"Australia is a nation united by the idea that all
are welcome who want to call the country home.
Inevitably this assumption is abused by people
intent on imposing their version of how this country
should be, some whose families have been here for
many generations and others but one. We saw the
disgraceful outcome of these attitudes in the
circumstances surrounding the December 2005 Cronulla
Riots."

"But, Australia has welcomed nearly seven million
migrants since 1945, demonstrating that the vast
majority of us have an expansive idea of who can be
included among "all" Australians."

http://www.convictcreations.com/culture/traditions.htm

I shall be celebrating Australia Day as usual.
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 January 2015 6:00:27 PM
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Craig Minns, "The Water Diviner". A great movie worth a look indeed

Runner what is your point? Why don't you fill us with the religious clap trap point of view on Aboriginal people. After all it might have been Great Granddad Runner who brought "Christianity" to the savages. The hypocritical Christians done as much as anyone to destroy the way of life of indigenous people the world over, with their religious rubbish, and they are still doing it today.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 24 January 2015 6:24:27 PM
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Paul,

"....It is interesting how the 'Usual Suspects' on the forum try and evoke their worm and fuzzy feelings when it comes to Australia Day, whilst at the same time totally ignoring the plight of Aboriginal people, ...."

It is interesting that others ignore the fact that no Aboriginals today want to go back to the days of 1788 and it's interesting that the Mainlanders are so forgiving of the Torres Strait people who used to hunt and eat them.
They also don't want to go back to the days of selective cannibalism and endemic wife beating among their own mobs..
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 24 January 2015 7:33:28 PM
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Hi there PAUL1405...

It is us the Europeans who've done the greatest disservice to our indigenous people ? By continually throwing money at them and their needs, time after time after time ? It's not a case of giving them more money, rather we should provided them with worthwhile jobs, with adequate on-the-job training, housing, ('BUT' built by their own hand) and arable land in which to pursue their own style of living ? Raising sheep, cattle, and crops if they wish.

All these activities should be contingent on ensuring all reserves remaining completely 'dry', and 'drug' free, and kept that way, with the heaviest penalties for those who attempt to break these conditions. For some reason our indigenous people cannot handle alcohol, nor any narcotic or stimulating (illicit) drugs ?

Furthermore, they'd probably have no reason to pursue alcohol and drugs, if they had worthwhile activities in which to occupy their time, without any need for either ? Merely handing out more money, by successive governments, achieves little. Other then for them to continue to lose self-respect and dignity. More proactive programmes are needed, and with it will garner sufficient enthusiasm for meeting the greater challenge ?
Posted by o sung wu, Saturday, 24 January 2015 8:34:51 PM
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Dear Craig,

Thanks for suggesting - "The Water Diviner," its on my list
to see next. I love Russell Crowe. And the story line
sounds wonderful.

Now back to the topic...

The following is an Editorial from The Australian,
January 26, 2009:

"Just as critics argue that Australia Day celebrates a
state and society that has done Aborigines many wrongs,
others argue there is nothing uniquely Australian to
celebrate on this or another day. Certainly, there is
no checklist of chants and speeches that are part of
all our Australia Day celebrations. There are no rituals
that everybody undertakes."

"People will celebrate the day in parks all over the
country, eating as many dishes as there are countries from
which we come. Some will watch cricket, others will wonder
why people care about the game. Most will surf in their
Speedos... Very few of them first and 5th generations alike,
will be able to articulate anything about why we should
celebrate Australia, other than it is home..."

"And that is the point. Australia is a nation united by
the idea that all are welcome who want to call the country
home. Inevitably, this assumption is abused by people
intent on imposing their version of how the country should
be, some whose families have been here for many generations
and others but one..."

"But Australia has welcomed nearly seven million migrants
since 1945, demonstrating that the vast majority of us
have an expansive idea of who can be included among "all"
Australians ."

Yay! for Australia Day!
Yay! for A Fair Go For All and Mateship!
Posted by Foxy, Saturday, 24 January 2015 9:18:07 PM
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Foxy,
That's what Australia day means to me, a celebration of multiculturalism which only gained widespread acceptance under the Howard administration.
Whatever else it represents, to me it's a display of insincere patriotism for a society which doesn't exist and since I'm a Nationalist and not a patriot I want nothing to do with Australia day.

Paul 1405,
You can repeat whatever magical interpretations of history you choose but the fact remains that the people inhabiting Sydney cove on January 25 1788 were walking about naked with rotting fish guts smeared in their hair to keep the flies out of their trachoma ruined eyes and with snot pouring down their faces.
European people are the source of all innovation in human history, where they've found valuable ideas,technology and artifacts from other cultures they've been appropriated and improved to allow us to dominate their creators.
Tell me, what have we taken and adapted from the "amazing","rich" and "deep" low stone age world of pre 1788 Australia?
The Aborigines almost immediately abandoned their old way of life when they saw the benefits of leeching off Whites, sheep are easier to spear than wallabies, a fowling piece brings down birds quicker than a throwing stick, damper is easier to prepare than wattle seed and a Royal Marines surgeon could give them more effective medical care than a witch doctor.
The problem with Lefties is they see Aboriginals as inferior to Whites, they don't credit those people who came into contact with the settlers as having the brains to see that what the English had was better than the stuff they had, White Nationalists on the other hand merely see the two races as unequal because nature doesn't do equality.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 24 January 2015 11:11:55 PM
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Is Mise,
"It is interesting that others ignore the fact that no Aboriginals today want to go back to the days of 1788"
If you'd asked the Aboriginals a century ago, I suspect the answer would have been very different - after all, many had lost their land and many more had been murdered, and the survivors tended to be denied most of the benefits the white population had.

It's not political correctness to say that Australia's historical treatment of its Aboriginal population was absolutely terrible. It's merely a statement of fact.

"and it's interesting that the Mainlanders are so forgiving of the Torres Strait people who used to hunt and eat them."
I suspect it has more to do with skepticism about very dubious claims than it does about forgiveness. But even if those claims are true, what their ancestors did to each other centuries ago has no bearing on the status of the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people now.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 25 January 2015 1:30:09 AM
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@Aidan

<<I suspect it has more to do with skepticism about very dubious claims than it does about forgiveness. But even if those claims are true, what their ancestors did to each other centuries ago has no bearing on the status of the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people now>>

The point --that you are very conveniently overlooking --is that every white on black infringement is presented and represented and represented again as evidence of the evils of white settlement--but black on black infringements are brushed under the table.

And just look at the effect that that has on the poor impressible souls in the Greens.They genuinely believe that Oz was an earthly paradise before those dastardly whites arrived.
Posted by SPQR, Sunday, 25 January 2015 5:38:37 AM
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No change needed in my opinion, it works just fine and has for years, although I have to say the change that saw the holiday celebrated on the actual day has been very disruptive for business. In my view it should always be celebrated with a Momday public holiday.

As for invasion day, sorry, this does nit register on my radar.

Did they honnestly expect the world to expand and prosper around them. Besides, there is all the help and assistance in the world for indigenous folk. Whether they choose to use this help wisely is their choice.

Leave Australia day alone I say.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 25 January 2015 6:02:05 AM
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The 26th January represents the first day Australia became a part of the Western World and a part of a universal society. Any first Australian that do not enjoy our way of life must deny any handouts and live in their culture. Ask are they better off? A former culture that beat and raped women and left newborn twins on ant hills.

In 300 years time with intermarriage there will not be a genuine aboriginal, just a lot of people griping about invasion.
Posted by Josephus, Sunday, 25 January 2015 6:23:39 AM
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Aidan,

Spot on!!

"....But even if those claims are true, what their ancestors did to each other centuries ago has no bearing on the status of the Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people now."

Just as what my ancestors may or may'nt have done has no bearing on the status of Aboriginal people now, except that their actions have brought the Aboriginals into the modern world.

Without 'whiteman's technology' my late friend, Burnam Burnam couldn't have flown to Britain in 1988 and formally taken possession of the island in the name of the Australian Aboriginal people, and this was, as he was the first to admit, only because of the toleration of the British people, a people with whom he had no gripe.
see:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burnum_Burnum
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:25:51 AM
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Watch it Josephus, you are almost treading on forbidden ground.
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:44:18 AM
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There are some very good posts here, O Sung Wu spoke of the money issue, and I suspect some is guilt money. Money is as necessary as fresh air, but it has to be spent well.
Worthwhile jobs, with adequate on-the-job training, (Education and opportunity, education brings so much) housing (and health), ('BUT' built by their own hand) ( a sense of achievement) and arable land in which to pursue their own style of living ? Raising sheep, cattle, and crops if they wish (self determination for all indigenous people city and country) Wu, you are becoming a bloody Green.

Jay was on the spot in 1788 reporting the facts. thanks for that.
"European people are the source of all innovation in human history" What a load of rubbish!
The problem with Lefties is they see Aboriginals as inferior to Whites, More rubbish. A few lines back you referred to the low stone age world of pre 1788 Australia. Defiantly a value difference between the low stone age world, and the source of all innovation. Are you a Lefty, must be.

Josephus and others, throw in the Christian thing, the Aboriginal done it all to himself, he was a pagan. What did your mob give them, bibles! Then in typical christian style, its toe the line, or else. I don't know about the ant hills, but I'm glad beating and raping of women was only confined to the Aboriginal population.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 January 2015 8:02:24 AM
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Paul,
The Aboriginals immediately abandoned their old way of life because the British offered them something better, that's the way colonisation works, it's how 70,000 British were able to govern 150 million Indians.
Because Lefties see all non Whites as inferior they can't credit Aborigines with the brains to have been able to see that they were better off adopting superior European technology and customs straight away.
The White racism profiteers need to portray Aborigines as eternal victims, objects who are always acted upon by Whites because if Aborigines are seen as agents of their own destiny there's no more gravy train for the carpet bagging White Lefties and bleeding hearts.
Remember my post about "Invasion Day"? That summed it up, if you want to portray Aboriginals as the losers and Whites the winners then it's obvious what your agenda is.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 25 January 2015 9:02:23 AM
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Dick Smith writing in The Age suggests that January 26th
could simply be known as "First Fleet Day."
He says that "Celebrating our national day on the day of
British settlement in 1788 has never been a date that
brings all Australians together, no matter how many flags
we wave or happy barbeques we may enjoy."

He also points out that "we have built a remarkable nation
in the years since 1788 and one of the advantages of
living in a democracy is we have the freedom to say what
we think and be able to stand up for what we believe is
important."

However, much as I believe that we're all entitled to our
opinions and Mr Dick Smith certainly is to his,
the opinion that resonated the most with me while surfing
the net - was the following expressed by
Benjamin Thomas Jones. Who wrote:

"As an Australian of European descent, I am sorry for the
brutal dispossession that followed first content. I am
sorry for the rape, murder and other acts of violence
suffered by Aboriginal people. I am sorry for the families
that were needlessly broken apart."

"But one thing I can't be sorry for is the arrival of the
British on 26th January. I am glad they came, if they
hadn't, I would not be here. I'm also glad the Italians,
Greeks, and other Europeans arrived after World War II.
I'm glad the Vietnamese arrived in 1980s and I'm glad for
the handful of boat people fleeing persecution who manage
to negotiate our draconian immigration policy and find
shelter on our shores."

"Australia in the 21st century is home to people from
virtually every country in the world. Each wave of immigration
has enriched Australia as a whole. I am proud to live in
one of the most peaceful and multicultural nations on the
planet."

Yay!

http://benjaminthomasjones.com/?p=483
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 11:12:11 AM
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Having read all the above I have come to the conclusion we definitely should change the date of Australia day.

There is really only one day suitable, & that is of course,

The First of April.

& happy Australia day to the lot of you.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 25 January 2015 11:49:39 AM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Most Australians would not agree with you.
But then again most today have an
IQ is that is higher than their shoe-size. ;-)
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 12:26:06 PM
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Hasbeen, you really are an engineer! :)
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 25 January 2015 12:34:42 PM
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Hi there FOXY...

As much as it pains me to say, but I definitely don't agree with your statement, '...each wave of immigration has enriched Australia as a whole...' ? I will agree, most new settlers have made a good fist of Australia as their new home, and I for one most certainly welcome them.

However, during the troubled times in Lebanon, the then Liberal Prime Minister Malcolm FRASER offered sanctuary to many of those Christian Lebanese who become disenfranchised, and who sought to escape from all the violence that was occurring over there.

Mr FRASER'S policy in principle, was quite good except, there was virtually no screening taking place of many of these people ? Consequently we were allowing many of the criminals and other fugitives seeking foreign shores in, unabated. Many having committed very serious capital crimes, and now we're paying the price, in fact we're STILL paying the price, only now it's a case of radicalized home grown terrorism !

Again, I would draw your attention to Bankstown and it's environs. It should be noted, I worked the Bankstown local command, so I do have specific knowledge of the area and it's many problems. Further, these people represent one of the largest criminal gangs, currently in (and running) NSW gaols, second only to the 'Bikie' gangs !
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 25 January 2015 12:43:58 PM
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Oh Foxy, & me with small feet. All the easier to put in some would say.

And what is wrong with April fools day Craig?

I'll have you know I & 5 others joined the navy on April fools day, 1958. I even have a photograph, with the date proudly displayed on it to prove it.

It has always tickled my fancy that they waited until after midday for the swearing in ceremony. They assured the thing did not apply after lunch.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 25 January 2015 12:43:59 PM
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Not a thing, Hasbeen, it's a perfect solution.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 25 January 2015 12:48:22 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

You with small feet?

You know what they say about men with small feet?

But I'm sure its not true in your case. ;-)

Dear O Sung Wu,

Of course as a police officer you would speak
from your own experience. As Dick Smith and
Benjamin Thomas Jones have done in the links I cited.
And for me? My experience has been limited. I have
not been back to Sydney for many years so I don't
know how and if the suburbs have changed. My limited
experiences have been very positive thus far.
Most of the people I've encountered from a multitude
of cultures and religions through my work and in my
contacts have been very positive.

Therefore -
I've become tired of the mainstream reporting over recent
weeks in our media. You would think we are living in
the twilight zone, where fear and loathing trumps calm
debate and reason. Media outlets currently beating
the drums of war and whipping the country into fear
and paranoia are the same media outlets who urged us
to go into Iraq a decade ago. Old habits die hard
apparently.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 1:21:54 PM
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Hi again FOXY...

I'm sorry FOXY I don't mean to upset you. You're right for most part, where you see only positive results of immigration, as it should be. Where I see only the seamier, more unsavoury side, and even then, only one particular demographic.

Happy 'Australia Day' everybody, whatever the date that it should be held ? We are indeed a very lucky people, living in the best country in the world !
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 25 January 2015 2:42:08 PM
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No Foxy.

I think I must have led a sheltered life.

What do they say about men with small feet.
Posted by Hasbeen, Sunday, 25 January 2015 3:03:24 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

You led a sheltered life - in the Navy?

Amazing.

I can't believe that you've never heard these
quips - "Big in the shoe = big in the pants."
And "Small in the shoe = small in the pants."

Of course all this was based on anecdotal
evidence.

However recently urologists dared ti test this
theory - and came up, ahem, a little short.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 4:41:13 PM
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Before I leave this discussion I would
like to wish everyone a "Happy Australia Day!"
May you all enjoy the day!

"Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six-foot-four and full of muscles
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a Vegemite sandwich..."
(Men at Work).
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 4:50:10 PM
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o sung wu,

Were you stationed at Bankstown when some character decided to shoot up the police station.
The husband of one of my cousins was a detective there at the time, he was a bit put out as he was very close to retirement!!
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 January 2015 5:59:55 PM
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SPQR,
"The point --that you are very conveniently overlooking --is that every white on black infringement is presented and represented and represented again as evidence of the evils of white settlement--but black on black infringements are brushed under the table."
Most black on black infringements are resolved. The Aboriginal tribes had their own system for dealing with such conflicts, and they enforced it. The British legal system was not so effective in dealing with crimes against Aborigines, and took over two centuries to recognise that the Aboriginal inhabitants were ever the owners of the land. So there's still a lot of unresolved issues between Aboriginal and white Australians.

"And just look at the effect that that has on the poor impressible souls in the Greens.They genuinely believe that Oz was an earthly paradise before those dastardly whites arrived."
Have you any evidence for that claim? Or are you just assuming that people in the Greens are of that opinion?

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Is Mise,

"Just as what my ancestors may or may'nt have done has no bearing on the status of Aboriginal people now, except that their actions have brought the Aboriginals into the modern world."
If that had been the case, there wouldn't be most of the big problems that there now are. But the way the modern world was brought to the Aboriginal people didn't often give them much opportunity for them to participate in it, and was hugely disruptive, needlessly separating families.

Things have since improved, though not yet to the stage where historical disadvantage is completely overcome. But we will get there eventually.
Posted by Aidan, Sunday, 25 January 2015 6:30:50 PM
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Many people don't realise that Australia Day was celebrated in very early times. Visit the Trove website (newspaper records online) and do an advanced search - you can see what many towns and cities did across the country re Australia Day. One example in 1915 (from the site) is at:

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/166930683?searchTerm=Australia%20Day&searchLimits=exactPhrase|||anyWords|||notWords|||requestHandler|||dateFrom|||dateTo|||sortby

"The White racism profiteers need to portray Aborigines as eternal victims, objects who are always acted upon by Whites...." Some in universities/government departments and charities take this line, but so do journalists and writers in the Australian newspaper, members of parliament or those on Andrew Bolt's TV show.

Personally it makes me annoyed being related to Aboriginal people myself (I have two direct nephews) - and then having many cultural backgrounds myself. Aboriginal people are portrayed as people all in crisis - when a lot are in fact doing well. I know myself, being related and seeing them.

My view has always been white is the sheet of paper I put into a printer and black is the ink printed onto it. Neither exist in terms of the description of a human and so such a description is cheap.

Australia day is not a day off work, time to have a barbeque or play cricket or as one person put it - a time to mow the lawn - it should now be a time to reconsider how our society works - and not be so "socially correct" - where we tell people what they should be, what they can or cannot wear or tell people what they can or cannot do at a basic level. Just be yourself.
Posted by NathanJ, Sunday, 25 January 2015 6:34:22 PM
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Aidan,

The big problems would have been overcome if they had not been continued by the "Aboriginal Industry" wherein many people profited by keeping the Aboriginal people down.

In 1967 the people of Australia voted for all Aboriginal people to be treated no differently to the rest of the citizens, had the wishes of the people been followed, instead of keeping Aboriginals dependent, then today there would be no problem.

That hallmark referendum was held forty-eight (48) years ago.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:06:27 PM
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Nathan J, a great way of looking at things.
Posted by Craig Minns, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:41:42 PM
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Dear Is Mise,

I think that you're trying to simplify a complex
situation. Let us not forget that Aborigines were
excluded from the rights of Australian citizens -
between 1901 to 1967. - Including the right to vote,
the right to be counted in a census, and the right
to be counted as part of an electorate. In addition
they were not subject to Commonwealth laws and
benefits in relation to wages and social security
benefits such as old age pensions, et cetera.

Control over all these matters remained in the hands of
state governments (except for the NT which was under
the Commonwealth Government). The result was that
specific conditions and regulations varied from state
to state.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:42:34 PM
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Foxy,

48 years
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:45:05 PM
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G'day there IS MISE...

I was with a task force at the time, I was not actually posted on strength to the Bankstown LAC. I do recall an incident, in fact there were several nasty events there during the time I worked thereat, the specifics of which I don't know ? I led a squad, which formed part of the TF at that time. Our AOC extended from Wiley Park across to Greenacre, to Yagoona, linking with Burwood Police, then back down to Bankstown proper.

Believe me there was absolutely nothing wrong with the suburb, or the adjacent suburbs nearby, other than a certain bastard ethnic group within that demographic, who thought they'd taken it over ? I was a member of the original TRG, as was most of my squad, and there was enough work for us to keep us all very busy, with an abundance of OT, as a consequence of the number of HR warrants that were being executed at that time. Apparently it was all for nought, as the place is now completely over-run ?

Speaking of your cousin's husband:- A true story IS MISE ? A good mate of mine (we went through Redfern together, and he too was a detective sergeant), he was so fed up with the job ! During the last six months or so before he was eligible for early retirement, he'd spend most of his spare time back at the Station, conscientiously calculating all his retirement benefits ?

He'd carefully calculate his all his unused rec leave, unused long service leave, maximum (allowable) 'lump sum' of his super, calculating his police fortnightly pension, paying off all his remaining debts, buying a brand new boat with new twin 75hp on the back, paying off the remainder of his mortgage on his magnificent retirement home in Batemans Bay. etc etc etc !

Sounds a bit like your cousin's (detective) husband, at the local Bankstown CIB ? As you'd correctly opined, had he been shot and injured, well he'd be very 'dark' indeed, particularly with the crook that did the deed !?
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:49:05 PM
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Dear Nathan,

I remember reading the autobiography of the
Aboriginal activist Margaret Tucker, "If Everyone
Cared," a few years ago. At the end of it she
gave a quote about the keys of a piano - something
to the effect that in order for beautiful music
to be made - you need both the white keys and the
black working together.

It was a good point.
Posted by Foxy, Sunday, 25 January 2015 7:54:17 PM
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o sung wu,

That sounds like him, he retired down the South Coast and just before he went I visited them and he had a very nice boat.
He was a keen swimmer, every day in the pool.

Ring any bells?

I knew that area like the back of my hand as I started my working life as a Call Boy (no we didn't do that!), on the Railway at Enfield Loco Depot.
Our job was to deliver job advice notices on day and afternoon shift and at night to wake drivers and firemen within a 2 mile radius of the depot, but this was often exceeded as required.
Very few phones in those days and enginemen didn't want one. to easy to reach!

I still have friends in Greenacre but they are slowly being convinced that somewhere else would be better.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 25 January 2015 8:56:05 PM
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Interestingly IS MISE, Greenacre was a pretty quiet suburb, with the only notable feature being the 'Twin Drive In' located at Chullora, where another large Railway establishment is or was operating. If I remember correctly ? Went to a job at Lloyd's piano's along Liverpool Road, fronting the back-end of the Drive-In, years ago now ? Gee, the old memory's struggling a bit, these days IS MISE ?
Posted by o sung wu, Sunday, 25 January 2015 9:24:54 PM
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Jay, <<Lefties see all non Whites as inferior they can't credit Aborigines with the brains>> Not bad coming from a so called Nationalists, what ever that entails. You have claimed African Negros are of low intelligence levels, African Americans are violent and inclined to commit crime because of their genetic makeup. No one but Europeans have done or invented anything worth while. Never had a good word to say about non whites.
White supremacist have nothing but a low opinion of non whites, including Aboriginals. We only need to look at the track record of National Socialists in power and how they treat those who do not meet the standard for what they believe to be the ideal (white) human being. Are you saying this time around things would be different with the likes of those people in power? And you claim its the "Lefties" who see non whites as inferior, I do not agree but it may be so. However others given the opportunity would rather see non whites as no more. Jay where do you stand? Your past posting speaks for itself.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 25 January 2015 11:57:36 PM
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Jay,
"The Aboriginals immediately abandoned their old way of life because the British offered them something better, that's the way colonisation works, it's how 70,000 British were able to govern 150 million Indians."
Hardly! The British were able to govern India by being well armed!

As for Australia, it varied greatly among tribes. A few did abandon their old way of life because the British offered them something better. But many more were forced to abandon it by those who were better armed.

"Because Lefties see all non Whites as inferior they can't credit Aborigines with the brains to have been able to see that they were better off adopting superior European technology and customs straight away."
Lefties see all people as equally important, and recognise that differences in ability between races are tiny compared to the differences within races. European technology was more advanced, but the most advanced technology isn't always what's superior for a particular purpose. And nor were European customs always superior.

Coming to the same conclusions as you would be an indicator of lack of intelligence.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 26 January 2015 1:32:31 AM
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Is Mise,
<<The big problems would have been overcome if they had not been continued by the "Aboriginal Industry" wherein many people profited by keeping the Aboriginal people down.>>
Is there any actual evidence for that? It looks to me like a blame shifting attempt to deny Aboriginal people the resources they need to succeed.

<<In 1967 the people of Australia voted for all Aboriginal people to be treated no differently to the rest of the citizens, had the wishes of the people been followed, instead of keeping Aboriginals dependent, then today there would be no problem.>>
A very revisionist claim there! Though treating people equally was long overdue, it did not solve all problems and it created problems of its own (e.g. equal pay resulted in mass sackings).
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 26 January 2015 1:45:24 AM
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Adrian,

<<Most black on black infringements are resolved….>>
The infringements I was alluding to were inter–tribal warfare and massacres. Whilst the ABC and SBS delight in running regularly informercials on incidents where whites killed Aboriginals. And it is a key part of many university literature study strands (through the texts selected) . There is a PC wall-of-silence around Aboriginal on Aboriginal atrocities. That is an imbalance which does great damage and needs to be corrected.

<<Have you any evidence.. the Greens believe (Oz was Eden-like before Europeans arrived) ?>>
Do i ever!
Exhibit A . Just take a geeza at Paul1405's posts they reek of/with Edenic imagery for pre-European Australia.
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 26 January 2015 6:41:04 AM
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Apologies Aidan --my post(above) wrong called you Adrian
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 26 January 2015 6:42:32 AM
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Aidan,

After 48 years of throwing money at the problem it still exists; very many Aboriginal people are still second class citizens plagued with social problems, had they and their problems been treated the same as for European (or whatever)Australians, under the same laws, then that would have been equality, true equality.

For all those who think that Aboriginal Australians were denied the right to vote until 1967, this from Wikipedia:

"The acquisition of voting rights by Indigenous Australians began in the late-19th century but was not completed in every jurisdiction until the mid-20th century. Under Australia's federal system, restrictions on Aborigines voting in state and federal elections varied until the 1960s, during which decade all remaining restrictions were eradicated.

In 1962, the Menzies Government (1949-1966) amended the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918 to enable all Aboriginal Australians to enroll to vote in Australian federal elections. In 1965, Queensland became the last state to remove restrictions on Aborigines voting in state elections. The Holt Government's 1967 referendum overwhelmingly endorsed automatic inclusion of Aboriginal people in the national census.

Indigenous Australians had first begun to acquire voting rights along with other adults living in Britain's Australian colonies from the late-19th century [1] in 1894. Other than in Queensland and Western Australia, Aboriginal men were not excluded from voting alongside their non-indigenous counterparts in the Australian colonies and in South Australia Aboriginal women also acquired the vote from 1895 onward. Following federation in 1901 however, new legislation restricted Aboriginal voting rights in federal elections. For a time Aborigines could vote in some states and not in others, though from 1949, Aborigines could vote if they were ex-servicemen and by 1967 Aborigines had equal rights in all states and territories. In 1971, Neville Bonner became the first Aboriginal to sit in the Federal Parliament. It is not compulsory for any Indigenous Australian to vote in any Australian election.[2]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_of_Australian_Aborigines
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 January 2015 6:46:21 AM
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Aidan,
The British were able to govern India by winning people over to their side, they abolished slavery, rolled back the Islamic dictatorships of the "Mughals" and brought European technology and medicines to the subcontinent.
The British liberated the Indians from Persian Islamic dictatorship, that's why they were welcomed and why India still maintains the British systems of government and even retains many of her customs.
Lewontin's fallacy, good one, when an intelligent person thinks about what Lewontin proposed for about two seconds he realises Lewontin is a fraud. He and his associate Stephen Jay Gould have been discredited as liars and anyone who repeats their assertions about race is either misinformed or duplicitous.
Aidan, if you believe in the dogma of the left you have to believe that human evolution and adaptation stopped at the neck!

Paul,
Interesting that you'd bring up "Nazis" again, the British were also superior in most every way to the Germans and the other continental powers, they had superior technology for one thing and if I follow your line of reasoning they were also morally and intellectually far ahead of Hitler and his men.
Paul could you provide us with a list of Aboriginal inventions which the early settlers were able to employ in place of European technology or which were adapted by the British?
Whites are clearly superior to Aboriginals in all areas which matter, you can claim equality only in the abstract sense and I can accept that your side views the world as mystical, incorporeal and insubstantial.
You can use your imagination and form a belief that groups of Africans are just as intelligent as Asians and Europeans but that's as far as it goes, such ideals might make for good fiction but they don't stand up to any sort of rational examination.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 9:14:32 AM
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Along with Arthur the first fleet of 11 ships contained a motley collection of some 1487 odd bods. One can only assume the majority of the 778 convicts did not want to be here anyway and most of the members of the infamous New South Wales Corps were escaping something or another back home. The remaining fellas most likely did not have a clue as to where there werey, and 48 didn't make it, 7 were born on the way. Given the greatness of "Britishism" why did they bother coming in the first place. That's right, if you believe some the Aboriginal people were after 40 to 50,000 years on their knees just begging for the white mans arrival. Within 2 years despite all their superior know how the British had almost starved to death.
The first smallpox outbreak among the Aboriginal people occurred in 1789.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 January 2015 9:53:14 AM
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And now for a superior dollop of PMO dingbattery - we now have Prince Philip named as a knight in Abbott's bunyip honours.

Most entertaining for a PM that's now beyond mockery.
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 26 January 2015 9:57:41 AM
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Jay,
I'm not antiimperial, but that doesn't mean I want the truth about the British Empire to be hidden! Mogul India did not have slavery. The British effectively replaced one dictatorship with another.

Lewontin's fallacy is irrelevant to my argument.

Jay, if you believe in the things you claim, you have to believe that human evolution and adaptation stopped at the neck in some parts of the world but not in others!

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

SPQR,
I'm aware of what you're referring to, but in most cases the problems are resolved, though a few issues remain, notably with overlapping native title claims.

<<Exhibit A . Just take a geeza at Paul1405's posts they reek of/with Edenic imagery for pre-European Australia.>>
What, because he said the Aboriginal inhabitants were "doing just fine"?

_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Is Mise,
<<very many Aboriginal people are still second class citizens plagued with social problems, had they and their problems been treated the same as for European (or whatever)Australians, under the same laws, then that would have been equality, true equality.>>
Repeating a claim doesn't make it true, and the real causes of the disadvantage are far more complex.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 26 January 2015 10:34:01 AM
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Poirot,

You leave my relatives alone, distant he my be but bloods thicker than water, so I must stick up for Phil the Greek.
Posted by Is Mise, Monday, 26 January 2015 10:37:32 AM
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Aidan,

<<I'm aware of what you're referring to, but in most cases the problems are resolved...>>

It is more than that. To continually broadcast white atrocities yet stay silent about Aboriginal on Aboriginal (early) violence feeds the delusion that everything was just dandy before whitey arrived.

<<Pauls comments>>

Here's one from Paul but his posts are peppered with similar:

<< it also seen the introduction of public hanging and floggings along with the spread of an assortment of diseases, smallpox, tuberculosis and venereal disease with numerous others.>>

By what he does not include, does not acknowledge, he (and his fellow travelers) make it sound like the spoiling of Eden!
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 26 January 2015 11:18:17 AM
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Aidan,
The Mughals practised slavery:
http://islammonitor.org/index.php?option=com_content&id=3312:islams-indian-slave-trade-part-i-in-islams-genocidal-slavery-

Lewontin argued in the 1960's that more diversity exists between members of a particular population than between populations but his position was never solid and today he criticises the idea of distinctive races mostly on the points on which race is to be defined, semantics in other words and not science.
If you go looking for similarities between groups you'll find similarities, if you're investigating the difference between say, Turks and Fijians you can find answers in DNA.
Though it's largely substantiated by modern DNA testing and examination of ancient remains even if race really is a social construct and nothing more then it's quite clear that social constructs should be placed ahead of genetics in defining who should live where on the planet.

Paul,
The first smallpox epidemic among Aboriginals witnessed by outsiders was documented in 1789, it wasn't the first outbreak ever and there's little doubt now that smallpox was in Aboriginal populations before European arrival and that it originated in Indonesia and was spread to Australia by Macassan Trepang fishermen.
This whole idea of "White man's diseases" is false, more and more information is coming to light about the spread of epidemics before Europeans took to seafaring:
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2014/08/seals-infected-early-americans-tuberculosis
Influenza can be spread by birds, are you seriously saying that Aboriginals were never infected with colds, the flu and whatnot by migrating birds? The chances that Australia was a disease free continent before European settlement is statistically highly improbable.
Take a look at this paper on diseases in ancient America, before European contact they had polio, whooping cough, Hepatitis,tuberculosis, herpes, rabies and amoebic dysentry but low population numbers and sparse settlement meant that these ailments along with other chronic diseases such as osteoarthritis, syphillis, osteomylitis and staph infections were not in epidemic proportions.
It was their poor diet and debilitation from other chronic conditions which resulted in lowered resistance to introduced diseases, particularly among women and children who it seems were less healthy than the men of ancient America.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071659/
The rest of your post is nonsense.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 11:32:09 AM
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Jay,
I stand corrected re slavery in Mogul India.

<<Lewontin argued in the 1960's that more diversity exists between members of a particular population than between populations but his position was never solid>>
On the contrary, his position was rock solid. There is such overwhelming evidence to show that individual traits vary more within races than between them that I'm amazed you've been able to hang on to the delusion that there isn't.

<<and today he criticises the idea of distinctive races mostly on the points on which race is to be defined, semantics in other words and not science.>>
And that is his fallacy.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

SPQR,
"To continually broadcast white atrocities" serves the purpose of counteracting the (still widely held) opinion that, as Is Mise said "Just as what my ancestors may or may'nt have done has no bearing on the status of Aboriginal people now, except that their actions have brought the Aboriginals into the modern world". But when that opinion recedes, or when it genuinely ceases to have a bearing, the difference between the historical coverage of white on black and black on black violence is likely to diminish.

And it is generally well accepted that a significant advantage of living in smallish tribal groups is that it is much less conducive to the spread of disease, especially when the people are not farming animals. And that when the settlers arrived there was a big problem of people encountering multiple diseases at once. Acknowledging that doesn't in any way imply Australia was an Eden.
Posted by Aidan, Monday, 26 January 2015 1:38:03 PM
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Aidan,

<<"To continually broadcast white atrocities" serves the purpose of counteracting …the opinion that…[what whites did ] … has no bearing on the status of Aboriginal people now…>>

Sorry I have to disagree. Counteract implies forces of equal measure ala a well-balanced arm-wrestle. What we have rather is saturation coverage of the (phony) PC version which would fit in well in North Korea.

Oh it will nose-lead a lot of those who cant or don’t want to think for themselves …but it will not win friends and influence anyone with independent thought who will see that they are being fed propaganda . Especially when, advocates of the PC version spout buzzwords about the need to be honest and open.

<<And it is generally well accepted that a significant advantage of living in smallish tribal groups is that it is much less conducive to the spread of disease…>>

Absolutely. But please read Jay’s posts about what is being learnt from recent research but not factored into the discourse.
Posted by SPQR, Monday, 26 January 2015 3:40:45 PM
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Aidan,
Lewontin is still alive, he's still sticking to his theory but he's wrong, he and his colleagues are either incompetent or liars.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/14/science/14skull.html?_r=0
Lewontin's argument simply doesn't work, it's not a scientific theory it's an argument against racial discrimination.
http://westhunt.wordpress.com/2012/01/26/lewontins-argument/
Here's a blog dedicated entirely to examining the very latest research in anthropology, ancient genetics and so forth:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com.au/
The latest research says that there are drastic differences in the way what we know as modern races and ethnic groups developed, that changes in physique and genetic makeup occurred very rapidly, that Eurasians are descendants of the out of Africa migrants, Neanderthals and a third, as yet undiscovered human-like group.
The latest information is incredible, did you know that some people in Europe a few thousand years ago had dark skin and blue eyes?
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72508000/jpg/_72508699_brana_i_final.jpg
They've also discovered human remains 40,000 years old which are physically Australoid but genetically European, Kennewick man in the U.S who is physically Eurasian and genetically Native American and that the San people of South Africa have Eurasian admixture which occurred in medieval times.

Aidan the differences are huge and none of the old paradigms still are still relevant, there's no need to cling to 50 year old anti-racist rhetoric and disregard 21st century science, it makes you look like a pig headed hick.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 6:56:53 PM
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Jay, when the truth does not suit your glowing white narrative you simply manufacture some conjecture then present it as fact. A prime example, as it is very inconvenient to admit the European spread a whole range of poxy diseases to indigenous peoples throughout the world, mainly due to their filthy lack of hygiene, Aboriginals were no exception, you conjure up something of no substance, then present it as fact. I said the first outbreak of smallpox in Aboriginal people was recorded in 1798, well it could have been dropped off by a passing bird, but is far more likely to have been spread by a bunch of unsanitary Europeans hanging around Sydney Cove. As this is most inconvenient for you to accept, you post this drivel and call it fact; << it wasn't the first outbreak ever and there's little doubt now that smallpox was in Aboriginal populations before European arrival and that it originated in Indonesia and was spread to Australia by Macassan Trepang fishermen.>>
You have no evidence of this claim, but state "it wasn't" not it might have been, no, it defiantly wasn't and then it becomes "little doubt" as if it is vitally a proven fact. After blaiming one group of non whites for spreading a deadly disease, you start blaming the birds. Then we have the <<statistically highly improbable>> Where are those statistics that prove the high improbability>> in your minds eye, you see it all. To back up your claims about Aboriginal people of which you have not the slightest evidence, you refer to what you think in the next best thing << this paper on diseases in ancient America>>

Your whole post is nonsense.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 January 2015 7:30:09 PM
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Aidan,
Then we agree, Europeans weren't immune to measles, influenza, smallpox, mumps etc unless they'd contracted survived the disease themselves,resistance to infectious diseases isn't hereditary so the same rules of nature applied to Aborigines.
Smallpox has a mortality rate of 30%, nobody has natural resistance to the disease at birth so if Aborigines died at rates higher than the mean (which isn't certain) then there are clearly other factors at play.
There's no evidence that the 1789 epidemic broke out of the coastal communities and spread beyond the highlands, yet explorers like Thomas Mitchell and others reported encountering Aborigines with Smallpox scarring in Victoria and South Australia.
There's an excellent paper on the subject, "A great deal of dying" Introduced diseases among the Aboriginal People of
colonial Southeast Australia 1788-1900 (P.J Dowling ANU 1997)

I'm not trying to get my people off the hook for the manifold problems of colonisation, I'm just trying to get us out from under the pile of lies and urban myths promoted by our enemies.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 7:49:34 PM
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I'm not trying to get my people off the hook for the manifold problems of colonisation, I'm just trying to get us out from under the pile of lies and urban myths promoted by our enemies.

Who are exactly "your people"?
Those manifold problems of colonisation, would not have been the indigenous people who were inconveniently in the road.
Who are exactly "your enemies"?
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 26 January 2015 8:10:48 PM
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Paul,
What did the colonial authorities do as soon as British and European scientists came up with effective infection control regimes?
They set up quarantine facilities for immigrants and people with infectious diseases were confined to sanatoriums or isolated in camps away from other people.
Hey here's some more inconvenient scientific data:
http://www.health.vic.gov.au/immunisation/resources/history.htm
Vaccines available in 1788? Errr, zero I think.

As far as infection control and epidemic prevention are concerned the pre federation British settlers and their descendants (my people if you must know) at all times implemented the most up to date procedures. You can see from that timeline that smallpox vaccine was available in 1804 but not produced locally until 1917.
See Paul unlike you I read all the reports, research papers and articles I post, there's almost no data available about the initial impacts of introduced diseases upon Aboriginals, all researchers can do is create models based on probability and compare data from across Oceania and the Americas.
The size of the pre colonisation population of Australia is unknown and the reports of the eyewitnesses such as Governor Phillip are unreliable, the colonists described the 1790 outbreak as "Chicken Pox", so even the story about a smallpox epidemic is unconfirmed.
There's no evidence of that epidemic(whatever it was) spreading beyond the coastal settlement and the hinterland, when the first tribes from the highlands were contacted they were unaffected by smallpox.
There's no evidence of excessive mortality rates among Aborigines from introduced diseases in the first decades, though clear evidence exists for the devastating effects of the later confinement of Aboriginals (Typhus in Tasmania for example)and the adoption of sedentary lifestyles in town camps and on missions, in fact the chronic lifestyle related indigenous health problems we see today quickly eclipsed infectious diseases as the primary cause of mortality.
Conquest is an unpleasant business but the fact that there are as many as three times the number of Aborigines alive in 2015 compared to 1788 argues against the charge of genocide so often leveled at my people by our enemies .
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 10:34:57 PM
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<<the fact that there are as many as three times the number of Aborigines alive in 2015 compared to 1788 argues against the charge of genocide so often leveled at my people by our enemies>>

Jay, another one of you facts! Try this;

Experts estimate the number of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders at 700,000 at the time of the invasion in 1788 [3]. It fell to its low of around 93,000 people in 1900, a decrease by almost 87%.

At present, 3% of Australia’s population (670,000) identify as Aboriginal [8].

It will take until 2021 for population figures to recover. If the current annual growth rate of 2.2% remains stable Aboriginal people can be as many as 721,000 by 2021 [3] and more than 900,000 by 2026 [11].
That was 700,00 people of 100% aboriginal blood, today's 670,000 are of mixed blood. footnotes are provided at the folloing web site.

http://www.creativespirits.info/aboriginalculture/people/aboriginal-population-in-australia#toc1

Jay, the vast majority of Aboriginals who died after 1788 by preventable causes died by accident. Admittedly there were some deliberate killings of Aboriginal people by the European, June 10th 1838 white settlers murdered 28 Aboriginal men, women and children near Myall Creek Station. For the first time in history some killers were tried and hanged. The massacre is a reminder of Australia’s colonial violence. I believe the events at Myall Creek were the exception rather than the rule. Unlike in Nazi Germany (1933-1945) there was no mass government sanctioned genocide in Australia of Aboriginal people, like there was of the Jews, but what we could term accidental genocide, even well meaning genocide.

cont
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 5:03:25 AM
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cont

Because I am willing to admit to the terrible actions of many of my past European ancestors, am I one of those enemies? I am more than 95% European blood, ancestors arriving in the 1830's. I have a small amount of Aboriginal blood through marriage of past relatives in Western NSW, but that does not color my opinion on the subject.
I believe we very much need to recognise the past and the terrible deeds perpetrated against the indigenous people of this land, something they never asked for, or had any control over. At the same time we need to move on and do our up most to achieve a positive future for all Australians. Not the deep divisions of the my people, the enemies etc, people like you want to foster. As I read the posts on this thread, there are many by the cynical haters, but there are enough by some decent contributes to give me hope for a better future for all.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 5:05:55 AM
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@Paul,

<<I'm not trying to get my people off the hook for the manifold problems of colonisation...>>

This from a guy who identifies strongly with the Maori colonizers --and probably runs around the house dressed in Maori warrior costume LOL
Posted by SPQR, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 5:07:57 AM
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SPQR wrong as usual I did not write that.

<<I'm not trying to get my people off the hook for the manifold problems of colonisation, I'm just trying to get us out from under the pile of lies and urban myths promoted by our enemies.>>
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 26 January 2015 7:49:34 PM>>

SPQR I'm sure you look the picture of sartorial elegance in your snappy black SS uniform. By the way I am not Maori, were you ever a chicken farmer? As you clearly identify with such people. LOL

p/s The law of averages says you should get something right occasionally, but you definitely prove that law wrong, with your pearls of wisdom.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 5:53:21 AM
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Paul,
There's no data to suggest a pre 1788 population of 700,000, the figure of 200,000 is just as credible, again, these figures are arrived at by mathematical modelling, ie they're a guess.
There are studies quoted in the Dowling paper which dismiss the idea of epidemics and allege widespread and systematic violence by Whites as the sole cause of the "Genocide".
You keep mentioning "Nazi Germany" as if it's some fait accompli in your argument but all it does is lend credence to the case against a systematic extermination campaign as the hard facts about the 1941-45 events in Poland don't support the idea of genocide.
Prison camps generally in the 20th century had about a 4-7% death rate from infection, with much higher tolls where infection control broke down or was absent.
The SS were able to keep the death toll to about 4% through constant testing of inmates, heavy use of insecticides and disinfectants in the camp and advanced techniques such as autoclave and microwave sterilisation of equipment.
When infection control broke down in in 1944-45 in several of the camps thousands died of typhus and dysentry, hence the piles of bodies at Belsen and the thousand or so dead at Buchenwald.
I know you like to use your imagination so picture the situation at an Aboriginal mission in the early 19th century with people wandering in and out as they felt like it, sick people mingling with newcomers, no vaccines,insecticides or disinfectants, poor rations and people debilitated by grog and chronic health problems.
It's no wonder that at times the town camps and out stations were found littered with corpses.
The other issue is that the introduced diseases took the heaviest toll on pregnant women, imagine the psychological effect on a clan of say 100 people of losing 30 of their number usually all the children under 15 and all their expectant mothers. Despair set in and the tribal order collapsed, men stopped hunting, women stopped gathering and the survivors fell into ruin, took to grog and existed by begging or stealing from the settlers.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 6:50:12 AM
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<<The SS were able to keep the death toll to about 4%>>

Are you claiming there was no such thing as the state sanctioned "final solution" of the Jewish problem by the Nazi's. Are you saying Auschwitz was not a death camp where thousands of people were systematically murdered by the Nazi's and their corpses burned in ovens etc?
You do not want to accept my figure of 700,000 in 1788, due to no hard evidence, but are content to put forward speculative argument about disease pre 1788 as fact to support you blinkered view of history.
Jay I can certainly see where you are coming from. Again I ask am I one of "your peoples" enemies? I also question who are "your people", I do not believe them to be mainstream Australians, of British ancestry or otherwise.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 9:26:12 AM
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You know, yesterday we went to the beach.

It was a beautiful day here in the West, an easterly was blowing so the surf was calm and the aquamarine waters of the Indian Ocean were perfect to take in just how lucky we were to be enjoying this peaceful day in Australia.

As it happened there was a Muslim family just next to us, the teenage girls in the water beside us, a little more modestly attired than others, but there they were romping and having fun like the rest of us, their family sitting on the sand and the littlies being coaxed into the water, laughing and squeaking with delight.

It was a lovely day - and I couldn't really give a stuff which day or date we officially hold our national day - every day is "Australia Day" to me.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 10:25:40 AM
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Dear Paul,

Hasbeen (Hassie) recommended sometime ago in this discussion
that "Australia Day" should be changed to April 1st.
He matn it as a joke - I'm sure.
Of course he did not know at that time what sort
of honours our PM would bestow on Prince Philip.
And, as a result of the PM's actions newspapers,
political commentators, journalists, and politicians,
were asking the question - "Is this April Fool's Day
or Australia Day?" Apparently Hassie's suggestion hit
the nail right on the head. Perhaps the date should
now be changed to April 1st - especially if we retain
the current PM. ;-)
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 10:31:47 AM
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Very well said Poirot, every day should be Australia Day, not just for those of us put here through an accident of birth with a skin susceptible to skin cancer though a lack of pigmentation, but for all the people of this great land.

Foxy, if you are traveling OS, and someone should mention Abbott and Australian in the same sentence, try pretending your Austrian, sing a couple of bar of 'Edelweiss' if need be, it could save one a lot of embarrassing explanations. LOL
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:02:11 AM
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Dear Paul,

Or I could simply pretend that I don't
speak English.

Funny that. My parents were consistently
told to "Speak English," when they first
arrived to this great land. And now I may
have to resort that I can't speak-a the
language - because of
the embarrassment our PM is.
Ironic - hey.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:54:40 AM
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<< yesterday [Poirot & family] went to the beach.It was a beautiful day here in the West...>>

Meanwhile faaaaaaaaaaaaar away on the other side of the country

Joe Blogs and family went to anther beach... it was a beautiful day ... an easterly was blowing so the surf was calm and the aquamarine waters of the [Pacific ocean ] tainted only by the odd oil slick [seem] perfect to take in just how lucky we were to be enjoying this peaceful day in [multicultural] Australia

Joe and his family joined a scattering of other families and singles seated on the sand hoping to do just that. However, a half an hour later --a group who for PC reasons we can only describe as wearing robes and bearded -- begin a stroll along the sand and start likening the bikini clad girls to uncovered meat and making suggestive gestures to them-- adding that they are on a part of the beach declared halal and off limits to infidels. Joe and some of the Life Savers ask the bearded men to move on but are outnumbered and assaulted

The next day New Matilda reports that a group of peaceful middle eastern men seeking only a little R&R after jihading in Syria for six months were merciless attacked by racist Ozzie hoons.

_____________________________________________

Note well -- Poirot lives well away from the Muslim dominated suburbs of Sydney's west where gun fights are a weekly occurrence...
Posted by SPQR, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 12:27:24 PM
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Sorry Foxy, I was thinking of the bad joke the Australia Day council, with their choice of Oz day awards in recent years, when I suggested April fools day.

However I don't mind using the good joke of making old Phil an Oz knight be part of the reasoning.

Some suggest a lack of connection with Oz by Phil makes him unsuitable for the role. However, from my reading of his time in Melbourne as a Royal Navy officer, during WW11, it is probable the number of his grandchildren in Melbourne is quite high. It would be possibly more than in the UK, if any of the stories are to be believed.

Yes SPQR, it won't be long before the lifesavers will need to sandbag their watch towers, & mount a few Bren guns at least, to keep our beaches safe from dangers much greater than sharks & rips.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 1:30:05 PM
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December 03 1854 was the day when the seeds of a decent, democratic, independent Australia were sown at Eureka. The appropriate date for Australia Day.
Posted by EmperorJulian, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 1:49:13 PM
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Dear SPQR,

We should all be concerned about violence in
Australia including alcohol and drug-fuelled
violence resulting in king-hits by our young
men where kicks to the head affect not only
the young people involved but their families
as well. Assaults of this nature are an ongoing
problem in this country.

Dear Hassie,

I worked at David Jones as a uni student during
the holidays - and rumour had it that there
was a "family connection," with Prince Philip.
No surprises - from a sailor, I guess.
However, I'm not sure that breeding "illegitimates"
qualifies him for any knighthoods.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 1:52:26 PM
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Jayb,

While we were packing up to come home we were treated to the spectacle of ute driving past, positively festooned with large-size Aussie flags - and boxing kangaroo ones as well. It really was a sight to behold.

Seems we experienced lots of different facets of Oz in our outing yesterday.

(Thanks for your latest whacky fiction - you really should get in touch with a publisher:)
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 2:24:08 PM
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I don't know Foxy, it worked for some of the Popes didn't it.

I recall some information that a few of them spawned quite large unofficial dynasties, & they still acquired high honours.

May be that's where we went wrong kiddo, we should have breed more.
Posted by Hasbeen, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 3:50:43 PM
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Seems I mistook SPQR for Jayb

"Joe and his family joined a scattering of other families and singles seated on the sand..."

And who appears to be as much into fictitious prose as Jayb.
Posted by Poirot, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 4:13:47 PM
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Hasbeen,

Have you ever heard any of the stories about the infant 'Secret Service' being sent around the country to retrieve the "Phil the Greek" photos which a young and exuberant Naval Officer had left in his wake during his wartime visit to Australia?

Apparently it was thought that they might be an embarrassment when it was announced that he was to marry the Princess Elizabeth.

Some are said to still exist.
Posted by Is Mise, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 4:17:00 PM
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Jay, how ironic today marks the 70th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz.

Survivors from all over the world are gathering together at Auschwitz, Hitler's most infamous death camp to remember those who perished there, and to pray for them.

Six million Jews died in the Holocaust - more than one million of them were killed at Auschwitz.

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-01-26/auschwitz-survivors-return-to-remember-those-who-never-left/

Makes your claim of, what was it, 4% died at the hand of the SS rather hollow.
Posted by Paul1405, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 7:47:26 PM
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Dear Hasbeen,

Yes of course it worked for the Popes.
But then they went to Confession and all
was forgiven. Whereas Prince Philip
couldn't, wouldn't, or didn't, do that.
Posted by Foxy, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 10:01:35 PM
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Paul,
I hold no beliefs, if you choose to accept a belief system based on Soviet and Zionist propaganda that's your business, personally I've never come across any information which would lead me to accept the concept of genocide, the word itself is merely part of the liturgy of that very same belief system.
It's not possible to mount an argument concerning the Orthodox Holocaust faith because it's ahistorical and unscientific, the Holocaust like all faith based systems is all about propagating a particular set of values and nothing more.
If you're asking me whether I share those values and hold those beliefs then the answer is an obvious and emphatic no.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 27 January 2015 11:15:59 PM
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Jay, it is not a belief, it is a fact, a historical fact that 6 million innocent people perished at the hands of a terrible Nationalist regime. You simply attempt to rewrite history to suit your Nationalist narrative. 20 million souls bear silent witness to the excesses of uncontrolled nationalism.
I realise my prodding on this subject is uncomfortable for you, and so it should be, as the events of 70 years ago never sit well with some, who today embrace much of the same philosophy, be it in their view a more moderate embrace, but never the less a similar embrace, which in the end, given the opportunity, would have a similar outcome. There is no such beast as a moderate radical.
I would truly like your honest opinion of Hitler, was he a savior, a saint, or a mad man? Of course you do not have to answer, but I'm sure you have read widely on the subject, as you seem to have on all related matters, and have formulated a concise opinion to match.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 5:58:15 AM
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Paul,

Among the many interesting people that I've met over the years were a few survivors of the Holocaust and I served, for a time, with a former Royal Engineer who was the bulldozer driver shown clearing away the bodies in one of the illustrations from Lord Russell of Liverpool's book, 'The Scourge of the Swastica'.

Of course some may say that anyone could have been the driver in the picture, his face was covered by a cloth, as some protection from the smell, however his hardback copy of the book was signed, simply 'Edward Russell' and to him personally and with thanks.

He had talked to many survivors, seen the bodies, the gas chambers and the crematoria and I believe every word that he and the survivors said.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 7:09:43 AM
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Is Mise, Paul, that's more like it, if we're looking at evidence then we can have a discussion.
Is Mise if your friend is the man in this photo then his claims are impossible:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Bergen_Belsen_Liberation_03.jpg
The western allies didn't liberate any "death camps" so he couldn't have seen gas chambers, no historian claims that Bergen Belsen was an extermination camp and the bodies in the photo are of people who died of Typhus and other diseases in the weeks immediately before liberation.
Many of the stories told by the "liberators" have been found to be fraudulent:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-4_Staff.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/Dachau/BostonGlobe131000.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375018/Denis-Avey-broke-Auschwitz-expose-Holocaust-account-insult.html
Even Simon Wiesenthal refuted the stories of extermination camps in Germany:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-9_Staff.html
I've also met a man who claimed to have been a British POW and to have seen mass murder at Buchenwald but his claims didn't stand up to even rudimentary scrutiny, he simply wasn't there.

Paul, six million is a fact is it? No historian makes such a claim, Professor Raul Hilberg came up with a figure of just over five million, the Yad Vashem institute in Israel claims to have collected some four million reports of Jews perishing during the period of hostilities and in 1979 the Red Cross tracing centre at Bad Arolsen put the death toll from all the camps at just over 271,000.
The figure of 350,000 dead in the camps and a refutation of the gas chamber story was published in 2003 by German writer Fritjof Meyer, given that minimising the Holocaust is a serious crime in Germany whic typically attracts a five year prison sentence and knowing that even though Meyer was reported to the Police he was not prosecuted we can reasonably call that the most up to date, unchallenged death toll.

Here's some more food for thought on "Holocaust Amnesia Day":
http://alternative-right.blogspot.com/2014/01/holocaust-amnesia-day.html
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 7:59:44 AM
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Just like those who believe the Roman Empire never existed, Jay, because of your own blinkered ideology you will never believe the 'Holocaust' took place, or at worse it was nothing more than a few accidental deaths.
Nice play with the facts there Jay. "Even Simon Wiesenthal refuted the stories of extermination camps in Germany" YES, they were in Poland and other places.
Reading Is Mise post, he is NOT claiming the bulldozer driver shown clearing away the bodies, had seen the bodies (not the same bodies), the gas chambers and the crematoria. Those sightings are attributed to Lord Russell of Liverpool, and not the bulldozer driver who is unnamed. although he could be Lord Russell, who on some other occasions did claim to see bodies, gas chambers and crematoria.

Since we are posting links:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/cclist.html

<<There are those among us, who say the Holocaust didn't happen at all. Or maybe a few people were killed, but not millions. Historical facts have proven time and time again, that Nazi Germany, planned and implemented their plan to rid Europe of those whom they considered sub-human. Accurate numbers for exactly how many humans died as a result of the Nazi plans are simply not available and never will be. Research by some of the worlds most able historians place the number of Holocaust victims murdered by government policy to be not less than twelve million and probably more.>>

From the above.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 9:09:57 AM
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Paul,
I don't subscribe to any ideology or hold any beliefs.
Able historians they say? Who exactly are the historians alleging 12 million plus murders?
I know the Soviet propagandists Vassily Grossman and Ilya Ehreburg made some pretty wild claims about 20 million people being gassed at Auschwitz but any information provided by the Soviets can be taken with a grain of salt.
The British intelligence services knew about the massacres in Ukraine and the Baltic states because the Einsatzgruppen reported them back to the SS command and they had to file requisition orders for trucks, fuel, ammunition etc for the purpose of executing prisoners.
http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/PoliceDecodes.html
It's pretty interesting to not that the SS report recruiting eighty British prisoners of war for duties as "Capos" in Auschwitz, it makes you wonder about the cock and bull stories told by people like Dennis Avey, were they really POW's or did they flip and work for the SS only coming up with these remarkable stories of survival to save their own necks at the end of the war?
The point is the SS didn't make any attempt to hide the massacres and executions, they reported the daily death toll in the camps back to HQ and some of the commanders were proud of the number of "partisans" they'd given "special treatment", if anything it's likely that they exaggerated the numbers to boost their stocks with the bosses.
There were some pretty kinky people working in the camps and in the Einsatzgruppen and the long prisoners themselves were mostly hardcore desperados so there's no doubt that bad things happened but it wasn't a secret that there were large numbers of deaths and executions on the Eastern front.
Imagine yourself as a law abiding Polish Jew plucked from your nice middle class life in Budapest or Paris and dumped in a prison camp full of sex offenders, fanatical Communist thugs and recidivist criminals out in the Polish countryside, how do you think you'd have coped? Could you have survived?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 10:01:18 AM
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Dear Paul,

It is important to remember that both the Nazis
and the Communists had committed unheard of
cruelties. Concentration camps - on both sides
of the front - operated at a high pitch prior and
during the war years. While the USSR policy of
mass murder preceded that of Nazi Germany, most
notably with the artificial Ukrainian Famine of
1932-33, the wholesale destruction of Russian
peasantry, and later of the peasantry and intelligentsia
in the occupied territories as well, the Nazis soon
matched Soviet terror with their wholesal slaughter
of Jews, Gypsies, and others, in equal numbers, if not
proportions of their populations.

As stated in "The New KGB" :-

"There is no dispute about the enormity of HItler's
holocaust. But it is equally important to be aware of the
accomplishments of the Soviet Secret Police, which brought
death to at least four times as many Russians, Poles, Jews,
Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Japanese, Koreans,
Chinese, Gypsies, and Romanians
as Hitler did in his eleven years as
a leader of the '1,000-year Reich' ".
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 10:06:15 AM
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Absolutely Foxy, Stalin was every bit as bad as Hitler. That is no excuse for the actions of Hitler and his Nazi henchmen. As a so called "lefty" I would never try to excuse the actions of Stalin, by pointing to Hitler, there is no excuse. Like Hitler the best thing Stalin done for the world was die.
Posted by Paul1405, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 11:17:59 AM
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Paul,
Likewise, most Nationalists are skeptical of National Socialism, Jim Saleam wrote the following recently:

"Florian has asked whether the Waffen SS demonstrated in practise and by ideology that the Third Reich was pan European.

I have said that Nazism was not 'white nationalism' as we would understand it. The Slav sub human doctrine is one proof of that.

So what should one make of the Waffen SS?

I put up the argument that German fascism, and perhaps fascism generally, was a split phenomenon. In war, the Germans tested the doctrines of eastern expansion, the Slav sub-human theory and German hegemony - and it was all found wanting. Other lines, the product not just of the radicalization of the war but of the history of the NSDAP and German Conservative Revolution, returned to challenge official Nazism.

I mentioned the plan of certain SS generals to arrest Hitler over the matter of the the official Slavic ideology and its unfortunate practise.

The European fascists did not proceed to a European Revolution. In Hungary, Hitler favoured the conservatives and only reluctantly brought the National Socialist Arrow Cross to power in October 1944; in Rumania, Hitler endorsed the military-conservative suppression of the Iron Guard. In the latter case, sections of the SS concealed the Iron Guard leadership from Hitler in 1941, saving their lives. And so on.

The pan European theorising and activity of many Germans including in the SS was a challenge to official Nazism because it would have run counter to German hegemony in Europe; I don't think we can see it as an extension of the regime's politics. That changes the way we should interpret the whole experience of National Socialism .On a human level those who fought with Germany were locked into a Total War from which ultimately there was no escape."
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 11:48:32 AM
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Foxy there's anecdotal evidence of hundreds of thousands of Jews fleeing from Poland, Ukraine and the Baltic states to the Soviet Union as the Wehrmacht gained ground and then literally "disappearing" and it's thought that more than a million Jews died in the so called Holodomor famines in the 1930's.
The Soviet Union in the 1940's wasn't exactly "Jew Friendly" and we understand that the paranoid leadership of the security services viewed anyone who'd fallen into Nazi hands and then been liberated as tainted and many returned POW's, internees and slave labourers were exiled to the Gulags or shot.
Stalin showed the world his true face when he allied himself with the Third Reich, vice versa the same can be said of Hitler, it's a fact that the SS sent it's engineers and architects to the Soviet Union to study the Gulag system and that Dachau, the model camp was based on the Soviet designs.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 12:03:51 PM
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Jay,

It could be him in the photo but I remember him as taller. The photo that I saw was from the side and there were many, many more bodies, the one in the link is probably towards the end of the clean up.
His unit was of a specialist nature and as an officer he probably got around more than most; lest it be thought odd that an officer would be driving a dozer and piling up bodies, it is common in the Royal Engineers that officers lead by example.
This is especially so among the bomb disposal blokes.
Posted by Is Mise, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 1:52:59 PM
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Dear Jay,

Stalin admired Hitler, and initially, the two worked hand
in hand. Just prior to World War II, Stalin forced
his beleagured people to strip the natural resources of
Soviet occupied territories in preparation for war
against the Western democracies and to provide Hitler's
Germany with raw materials for the Nazi war machine.

"Russia was to supply a third of Germany's total needs of
oil, large quantities of iron ore, cotton, phosphates,
chromium, manganese, rubber supplies from the Far East and
a million metric tons of food grain." (Eric Koch,
"Stalin's pact with Hitler," International Perspectives
13 at 14 Sept/Oct. 1984)

In the Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty of 1939 (Treaty of
Non-Aggression between Germany and the USSR (Molotov-Ribbentrop
Pact), Aug 23, 1939; Secret Additional Protocol - Aug. 23,
1939, Secret Additional Protocol (Sept. 28, 1939, Documents
on German Foreign Policy, No 228,229,159 (1939) -

Stalin and Hitler went further, agreeing in a secret pact to
divide Eastern Europe and allow the advances of the Wehrmacht
and the Red Army for the purpose of dividing the hapless
Balts, Poles, and others, which led to the World War.

History is clear that in 1939, Stalin and Hitler were allies
against the free people of Europe. They were both, by then,
accomplished killers, even though Stalin led the score in
victims tortured, starved, and massacred. Each created panic
and chaos throughout Europe. Each produced millions of
refugees and homeless. Each was expanding and building
concentration camps in which millions of innocent victims would
perish. Both despised and mistrusted democracies. Both
were set on their conquests.

The two dictators used the same methods to deal with their
domestic opposition - terror (Eric Koch, "Stalin's
pact with Hitler.").
Posted by Foxy, Wednesday, 28 January 2015 2:29:07 PM
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Foxy, thanks for the above post, as time goes by, its been over 70 years now, and those that survived grow fewer in number, the truth can be distorted, and the true horrors of the past diminished. A quote;

"Without memory, there is no culture. Without memory, there would be no civilization, no society, no future." Elie Wiesel (a prisoner himself in Auschwitz)
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 January 2015 6:05:55 AM
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Dear Paul,

Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn tells us in the Preface,
to his book, "The Gulag Archipelago," about an old
Russian proverb that says:

"No, don't! Don't dig up the past!
Dwell on the past and you'll lose an eye!"

But the proverb goes on to say:

"Forget the past and you'll
lose both eyes."

Decades go by, and the scars and sores of the past are
healing over for good. However, unless we learn from the
mistakes of the past, the tragedies, it is unlikely that
we will have a very bright future to contemplate.
The moral choice is ours to make.

Also, it is important to also acknowledge that while the
Nazis have been pursued all over the world for
their crimes, the other half of the criminals, the
communist criminals, were allowed to go free. They were,
in effect, given tacit permission to continue the
operation of their concentration camps, to expand their
draconian system to include psychiatric wards, thereby
raising torture, suppression, and murder to a science.
The fact that the process persisted was vividly disclosed to
the free world by Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 January 2015 10:08:58 AM
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Hi there FOXY...

It would seem this topic of yours has evolved to a certain extent ? Speaking of the terrible crimes of WW11 occasioned by both Hitler and Stalin, and your hope that we all, all mankind learns from that era ?

We haven't learnt, in fact we'll probably never learn, which only goes to prove how damn stupid we all are, to continue to ignore the mistakes of the past, over and over again ?

I was looking at one of the many links furnished herein by JAY of MELBOURNE concerning the Holocaust and while reading some of the comments therein.....? Well it really amazed me, moreover troubled me by the apparent lack of intellect displayed by some, making those comments ?

I tend to browse when given an all encompassing Site such as this, and (again) I was reading (completely unrelated to the Holocaust) about a film titled 'American Sniper' and the many comments attached thereto ? I'm totally apprehensive for our future, when I read some of the comments people actually consign to print ? If that's their standard of thinking and maturity, 'well look out' we're in for a rough ride ? Have we learnt nothing in this age of electronic access, to masses of information, and historical fact ?
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 29 January 2015 1:44:35 PM
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Dear O Sung Wu,

Yes - this topic has certainly digressed as topics
tend to do on this forum. Someone brings up another
issue and we all tend to respond to it. I've got
to admit though that I am pleased (and grateful)
that people tend to respond to my discussions at
all.

As for learning from history? It was George Santayana
who wrote - "Those who cannot learn from history
are doomed to repeat it."

I like what an American lawyer David E. Springer said
when he expressed his concern. He felt a duty as a
lawyer to address shortcomings in the American legal
system. Mr Springer stated:

"At all times, vigilance is the price of liberty.
We must remain vigilant because while it might be us
today, it will be some other group down the road 20 years
from now. The measure of our society over history is
our fidelity to our principles. We must remind our
government and our people to remain faithful to those
principles or otherwise our society, like so many in the
past, will be swept on the ash heap of history."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 29 January 2015 2:10:59 PM
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Foxy, Was it a case with Stalin and the allies, my enemies enemy, is my friend.

Did not Roosevelt say to Churchill "I think I can work with Uncle Joe (Stalin)," Either Roosevelt was a complete naive fool, and he was not that, or he was prepared to forget about all the monstrous acts of Stalin and his regime, simply to further Americas modern
geopolitical interests, which were well in place long before 1945.
Yes, when you start a discussion you never know up what alley it will head. In this case Australia Day to Aboriginals to genocide to The Holocaust and you can't have the Holocaust without Hitler, then Hitler and Stalin go hand in hand.

Jay, if you have not run away from this one. Please tell me if you agree with this quote.

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.”
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 January 2015 7:56:54 PM
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O Sung,
Comments are one thing, the articles are another, you should read some of the stupid stories the so called "survivors" come up with.
http://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/10/world/time-too-painful-to-remember.html
"In the camp there was a cage with a bear and an eagle," he said. "Every day, they would throw a Jew in there. The bear would tear him apart and the eagle would pick at his bones." "But that's unbelievable," whispered a visitor. "It is unbelievable," said Mr. Hubert, "but it happened."
A bear and an eagle and a Jew in between..hmmmm, I wonder if that's a metaphor?
This is the typical form of the "evidence" for the Holocaust, exaggeration, hearsay and outright fabrication.
You might remember the Eichmann trial in the 1960's, witnesses appeared and gave testimony which directly contradicted the evidence given at Nuremberg, such as Adolf Berman and his kilometres wide field of bones and children's shoes at Treblinka:
http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/e/eichmann-adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-026-03.html
It's funny that he'd say that given that the Soviets reportedly found nothing but the ruins of a farm at the supposed "death camp".
If you've got a few hours spare take a look at these videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvgtqC42gvI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64JcnVCKCtY
If you watch those videos you'll understand where I'm coming from, it's not that there's no evidence, it's the evidence itself which is the biggest problem and you'll understand why these days evidence is not allowed to be presented by defendants in "Holocaust denial" cases.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 29 January 2015 8:05:42 PM
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Jay, I did ask you what are your thoughts on Hitler. Being as widely read as you are, and since you have no problem passing an opinion on some local polititions, Greens for example, who you do not particularly like, surly you have an opinion of Hitler. Maybe you are just avoiding the question.

Yes, among millions of people you are going to get the story tellers, even those who will tell fibs. No matter how you spin it, twist it, distort it, you can't escape the Holocaust as the equally greatest crime of the 20th Century and we'll put the crimes of the other great monster, Stalin in to boot.
Posted by Paul1405, Thursday, 29 January 2015 8:43:10 PM
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Hi there JAY of MELBOURNE...

Many thanks for the 'heads up' on the veracity of some of these Links you kindly refer too ? Indeed, sometimes the truth does get confused with the 'interpretation' of fact, particularly as time goes by, and memories cloud ? I don't believe anybody who is attempting to recount those dark days, would in reality deliberately set out to confuse or distort the real facts associated with an event as horrific as the Holocaust ?

Whether it was six million or five even two million Jews, that were consigned to their deaths, the sheer horror of those times should never be forgotten, where one ethnic group attempted to totally exterminate another ethnic group of people ? It's not the numerical quantity that should ever be forgotten, rather the pure 'INTENT' in the minds and hearts of the Nazi's, that accounts for it, that's the real horror of it all ?
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 29 January 2015 8:50:42 PM
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O,Sung,
No, you're a rational person, does your last post seem rational when you read it back?
If you recited that post in public in Germany, France, Austria or Sweden and someone reported you to the Police you could find yourself in court. You can't minimise or speculate about the numbers, it's written in stone.

In the late 1940's holocaust denial by an accused person was pretty much an automatic death sentence and people made up these wild stories to save their own necks, for profit, for revenge or simply for notoriety.
Look at it this way, in the 15th century when a person was accused of witchcraft if they said that it was impossible that they'd consorted with the Devil because the Devil didn't exist then they'd be executed, the existence of the Devil is written in stone right?
So to stay alive the accused witch might say, "Well I was spying on the coven and I'm sure I saw the Devil, but only from a distance!".
So it is with Holocaust testimonials, "Well I was only at Treblinka for a short time your honour but I saw mountains of luggage in the yard and glimpsed the smoking pyres through a gap in the fence", or "Well I was responsible for building a gas chamber but I never saw it in operation", or "Well I have been accused of being a collaborator in the ghetto, that is true but as many Jews as I rounded up for deportation I let tens more escape".
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 29 January 2015 9:15:53 PM
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G'evening to you PAUL1405...

I could be wrong but I was always under the impression, if one were to compare the two monsters at their blood thirsty worst, Stalin accounted for more murders, than did Hitler ? What's a few hundred thousand innocent deaths between these two barbarian's ?

I think it was you who asked another herein, about his honest opinion of Hitler ? In his earlier days, he did some reasonable things for his people ? He commissioned the design and mfg. of the VW. He built the country's first Autobahns. Then something strange occurred ? Hitler went mad, and became a monster, a murderer, a war monger, and in time he turned into a total tyrant, if that was possible ?

Otherwise he was quite a reasonable bloke, and his behaviour could well have been improved, had he had the benefit of meeting a Mr SMITH and Mr WESSON, two well regarded practitioners of curing mad bastards ? Oh well I guess we'll never know, eh PAUL, given he received early retirement, from the job of dictator ?
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 29 January 2015 9:17:50 PM
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Paul,
I was born in 1967, Hitler had already been dead for 22 years, when I was a kid the Swastika was a sign of rebellion like a safety pin through the ear, bikies and punks wore Swastika patches and had them as tattoos back then.
I've read a lot about Fascism and expressed admiration of it's forms and aspirations but that's as far as it goes, as Jim Saleam said in the piece I posted earlier, Fascism never developed into a European revolution and German National Socialism was put to the test and found wanting.
The people I admire and whose articles I link are a diverse mix of Eurasianists, White Nationalists, Ethno Nationalists and Identitarians from many ethnic groups and schools of thought. Some are Slavs, some are Jews, homosexuals, women, Asians, Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Atheists, Anarchists, Libertarians and all sorts, Hitler will be foaming at the mouth if he's looking down on us from Valhalla.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Thursday, 29 January 2015 9:39:21 PM
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No Jay, he is looking up from Hell, and thank you for that answer, but it does not give an opinion, good, bad or indifferent. I'll take it you are ambivalent towards the monster Hitler. I too was born after Hitler died but not before Stalin so I should have an opinion of one, and not the other, monster?
Being a person of facts can you expand on this statement;
"In the late 1940's holocaust denial by an accused person was pretty much an automatic death sentence and people made up these wild stories to save their own necks, for profit, for revenge or simply for notoriety."
Can you lists persons who we executed for the crime of "holocaust denial" after WWII, other than Nazi's who were executed for war crimes.

AND. Those statements that followed "Well I was only at Treblinka for a short time your honour...etc, etc,etc" Who made these statements, Names, or are they just made ups to justify your thinking? After WWII the Allies were very careful to conduct war trials in a civilized and judicial manner. not wanting to be seen as barbarians like the Nazi's. You are inferring people (witnesses) could say what they liked, and it was taken as gospel. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 30 January 2015 6:54:58 AM
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Paul,
http://www.sweetliberty.org/issues/wars/witness2history/25.html

"Then why, one might ask, were U.S. citizens and government officials serving as prosecutors and judges, and why has the U.S. Government participated in and endorsed an alien tribunal which does not accord to defendants the same rights which American defendants would receive before U.S. courts at home?" - H.K Thompson and Henry Strutz,M.A. Doenitz at Nuremberg: A re-Appraisal. N.Y., 1976

"The Nuremberg process in itself was not a judicial process, but an act of vengeance against the defeated. Nuremberg was particularly profaned by the fact that the Russians were among the judges and themselves guilty of many crimes and atrocities . . . Being a jurist myself, and a Christian, I abhor the justice of Nuremberg." - Most Reverend. Bishop Vincentas Brizgys, Bishop of Lithuania

"Hearsay evidence was admitted indiscriminately and sworn statements of witnesses were admissible regardless of whether anybody knew the person who made the statement or the individual who took the statement." - George McDonough, American Lawyer, New York Times

At the Dachau U.S Military Tribunals, interrogators poised as priests to extract confessions. The American judge, Edward L. Van Roden, one of the three members of an American Army Commission set up to investigate claims of maltreatment found:

"Posturing as priests to hear confessions and give absolution; torture with burning matches driven under the prisoners' fingernails; knocking out of teeth and breaking jaws; solitary confinement and near-starvation rations. The statements which were admitted as evidence were obtained from men who had first been kept in solitary confinement for three, four, and five months . . .

"the investigators would put a black hood over the head of the accused and then punch him in the face with brass knuckles, kick him and beat him with rubber hoses . . .

"all but two of the Germans, in the 139 cases investigated, had been kicked in the testicles beyond repair. This was standard operation procedure with our American investigators."
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 8:10:02 AM
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cont
"... a fantastic desecration of the ideals of Western Civilisation, and appalling miscarriage of justice... a misuse of evidence for vicious ends, all of which will someday be exposed as a shocking travesty of high legal and moral principles." - Henry M. Adams, Ph.D. Professor of History, University of California

"I have heard evidence and read documentary proofs to the effect that the accused persons were beaten up, maltreated and physically tortured by methods which could only be conceived by sick brains. They were subjected to mock trials and pretended executions, they were told that their families would be deprived of their ration cards. All these things were carried out with the approval of the Public Prosecutor to secure the psychological atmosphere necessary for the extortion of the required confessions. If the United States lets such acts committed by a few people go unpunished, then the whole world can rightly criticize us severely and forever doubt the correctness of our motives and our moral integrity." - Senator McCarthy, American Press, May 20th 1949

The circus aspect of these show trials was such that when a certain gentleman of the name Einstein tearfully accused a German named Menzel of murdering his brother, the defendant pointed out that his brother was alive and well, and sitting in the court. The presiding investigator scolded Einstein.

"How can we bring this pig to the gallows if you are so stupid as to bring your brother into court?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 8:17:02 AM
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At the end of World War II with the advancement of
the British, American, and Russian forces, numerous
concentration and death camps were discovered and
filmed and are part of archival records.

Thousands of soldiers who witnessed the nightmare,
passed on their experiences to others for the public
record.

There were
news reporters and camera-men who recorded the
nightmare, all of them bore witness to a historical fact.

So today's Holocaust deniers who have never witnessed
or experienced the events on record should not be
taken seriously.

Today, we can know a great deal about those times. It is now
possible to explore the past by means of a large number
of books - including the Memoirs of Hitler's architect -
Albert Speer, "Inside The Third Reich," whose testimony
to what happened is crystal clear. There are not only books,
but documents from Nazi records, articles, films, and
archival material available for those wanting to know
the truth. One can visit museums, and libraries, and
government records, (Germans kept meticulous records)
to find the evidence. The evidence is available and it totally
brings the deniers allegations into disrepute.

No more needs to be said.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 1:13:27 PM
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cont'd ...

The same applies to those who try to deny the
history of Indigenous-Settler relations.
As cited from Historian Henry Reynolds
earlier in this discussion - it is now
possible to explore the past by means of
large number of books, articles, films, novels,
songs, and paintings. Many voices have filled out
the space once claimes by Stanner's Great Australian
Silence. And, as Reynolds points out that:

"But knowing brings burdens which can be shirked by those
living in ignorance. With knowledge (in this case)
the question is no longer what we know but what we are now
to do, and that is a much harder matter to deal with."

It will continue to perplex us for many years to come.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 1:20:06 PM
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Foxy,
The testimony of returned allied soldiers is extremely unrelaible.
Curtis Whiteway testifies that he and his unit over ran the Hadamar T4 facility near Lemburg Germany in 1945 and saw on their approach a vile cloud of smoke coming from the crematory ovens.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ws70JtNLKs
Trouble is the T4 program ended in 1941 and the Hadamar hospital's two single muffle Koris crematory furnaces were dismantled that year.
Whiteway probably got his information from a newsreel like this, which also makes the same mistake:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROSQvafGS-I
Hadamar was being used as a hospital at the end of the war, it's not surprising that there were thousands of corpses buried there, but note that they're all interred in individual marked graves?

There are numerous examples of this sort of tall story telling by veterans but it sank to new lows in the 1990's with outright fraud and fabrications such as the film "Liberators: Fighting on Two Fronts in World War II"
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n3p-4_Staff.html

Foxy have you ever seen the other photos of the liberation of Bergen-Belsen? There's a gallery here:
http://www.bergenbelsen.co.uk/pages/Database/SurvivorsPhotos.asp?index=10
There's a few pretty skinny, sick looking people in the actual photos but clearly the "walking skeletons" were a minority and the piles of corpses were those of people who'd died of disease immediately before liberation.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 2:20:51 PM
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Jay,

'....There's a few pretty skinny, sick looking people in the actual photos but clearly the "walking skeletons" were a minority and the piles of corpses were those of people who'd died of disease immediately before liberation....".

Why were there so many deaths from disease, lack of duty of care?
Posted by Is Mise, Friday, 30 January 2015 3:04:24 PM
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Is mise,
You could put it that way, Belsen was designed to accomodate 10,000 people, by early 1945 it contained an estimated 60,000 inmates, an estimated 35,000 subsequently died as a result of Typhus, Dysentry, Cholera etc and all were weakened by starvation.
Look at the photo gallery and understand that those poor people had lived like that for months, with little food, no medicine whatsoever and on top of that outbreaks of disease and the harsh European winter conditions.
It's hard for us to imagine just how bad the situation was in Germany in 1945, there were piles of bodies everywhere, this photo of a cremation pyre is from Dresden:
http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/places/germany/dresden/images/dresden-pyre-01.jpg
It's also worth noting that many of the concentration camps were abandoned by the Germans days or weeks before liberation but the inmates had stayed put, the fact is that there was nowhere to go and conditions outside the wire were often just as bad as inside.
It's no wonder the liberating forces were outraged and horrified by what they found but Europe was totally devastated, there were starving, disease afflicted people roaming all over and atrocities against civilians were common.
Here's a rather disgusting film showing the mass murder of Sudeten Germans in Czechoslovakia in 1945, though I really don't recommend watching it if you're easily upset:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6IFfQdM7EI
Context:
http://www.radio.cz/en/section/curraffrs/documentary-to-show-post-war-mass-murder-of-german-civilians-in-prague
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 5:21:12 PM
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For those like Jay who doubt the Memoirs
written by notables like Primo Levi,
Viktor Frankl, and Elie Wiesel, to name just
a few, of their
times in the concentration camps. Who doubt
what Hitler's architect Albert Speer (who
designed the gas chambers in the concentration camps)
and confirmed what occurred there in his memoirs,
"Inside The Third Reich." And who can Google
photographic accounts that are available on the web -
and yet chooses to pay no heed. It's best not to
waste time arguing and worse - give them a platform
to argue from.

Survivor accounts tell the story. Their eyes saw what
no one should witness. Our efforts today instead of
arguing about the numbers of dead, how they died, and
whether some of them were not as "skeletal" as they
should have been. It should focus on making our children
and grandchildren more humane. And raising them to be
decent human beings so that we never again have to
experience these
monstors,skilled psychopaths or educated Eichmanns.

As for you Jay - you can take your websites - fold them
five times, and stick them where the sun doesn't shine!
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 6:05:44 PM
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Foxy,
Even David Irving doesn't believe Albert Speer:
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/05/Speer_Auschwitz.html
Elie Wiesel is an appalling liar:
http://www.henrymakow.com/translated_from_the_hungarian.html
http://www.ihr.org/leaflets/wiesel.shtml
Viktor Frankl too:
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v20/v20n5p10_frankl.html
Primo Levi's story makes no sense and contradicts some other aspects of the orthodox Holocaust narrative:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7339

Ruth Franklin in her book "A Thousand Darknesses: Lies and Truth in Holocaust Fiction" deems Wiesel and Levi's fabrications and inconsistencies "artistic licence":
http://www.jewishbookcouncil.org/book/a-thousand-darknesses-lies-and-truth-in-holocaust-fiction
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 9:10:48 PM
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Jay, you seem to be widely read on all things Nazi, and you can't give an opinion on Hitler.
What were all those concentration camps for?
Why were so many non combatant people put into those camps?
What was the 'Final Solution'?
What was the Wannsee Conference of 1942?
Posted by Paul1405, Friday, 30 January 2015 10:25:10 PM
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David Irving is in no position to judge anybody.

He isn't qualified to do so.

He is not a historian.

He is an avid Holocaust denier.
He relies on hoaxes and lies, and preaches intellectual -
garbage.

I am sorry that my discussion has now been
diverted to this low level.
It is for that reason that I am now leaving it.
I have no wish to participate any further.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 January 2015 10:29:02 PM
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Foxy David Irving is one of the most accomplished historians working in World War 2 research, he's actually done a lot to protect the dignity of survivors and expose what Norman Finkelstein calls "Holo-Trash", his repudiation of the fake Hitler diaries in the 1980's is one example.
This is a thought provoking article:
There Went a Man
Remembering Raul Hilberg
by NORMAN FINKELSTEIN
http://www.counterpunch.org/2007/08/22/remembering-raul-hilberg/

Hilberg was a fascinating figure:

Prof Raul Hilberg speaking on 22 February 22, 1983 at New York's Lincoln Center Avery Fisher Hall at a meeting organized by the Holocaust Survivors Foundation:

"WHAT began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus - mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy."
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 11:08:02 PM
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Paul,
If you'd read any of the reports on the Holocaust you wouldn't need to ask me such questions.
There's no unanimous position among Holocaust scholars and there are some big questions which have not been answered.
For example, the death toll at Auschwitz was revised downward several times, from four million to just over one million, so shouldn't the official total death toll therefore also be revised downward to three million from six?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1992-05-07/news/9202100662_1_death-wall-auschwitz-memorials
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Friday, 30 January 2015 11:25:56 PM
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Jay, you can put up all the links you like about numbers. be it ten million or one million, or links questioning who said what and when. The inescapable fact is a regime led by a monster, Adolf Hitler, a person you have so far steadfastly avoided criticising, perpetrated one of the twentieth centuries most barbaric acts of murderous genocide. Whether that genocide took place by accident or design is of little concequence, just as the actual numbers are, numbers and facts will never be truly known, all is of little comfort to the millions which are known to have suffered and died. What is relevant is a regime, led by a monster, and aided and abetted by so many, was able to commit such atrocities in the name of a fanatical belief, National Socialism.
Today there are those who question the content of the past, for their own reasons they want to diminish what happened. These same people want to re-badge Nazism into what they perceive as a more acceptable alternative, call it what they will, but underneath, deep down, it is the same unacceptable mix of hate and intolerance which led to that great catastrophe of the twentieth century, something mankind should never want to see repeated.
Posted by Paul1405, Saturday, 31 January 2015 2:07:39 PM
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Paul.

Adolph had his good points, which is something that we should always remember.
He liked children and animals and was an affable and attentive host;
Group Captain Frederick William Winterbotham, RAF, had afternoon tea with him on at least two occasions during the 1930s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F._W._Winterbotham

Hitler was a hard worker and as a soldier in WW I had been decorated for bravery and it is notable that he only wore his Wound Badge and Iron Cross (1st Class), so we may add modesty to his virtues.
(Goring by contrast, wore everything that he could pin on his uniform).

Which make Hitler's crimes all the more repulsive and monstrous because, as Winterbotham wrote, Hitler was a charming person; just how charming he would have been had he found out that Winterbotham was a British Intelligence Officer, is something on which the latter did not care to speculate.
Posted by Is Mise, Saturday, 31 January 2015 9:44:46 PM
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Is Mise, a worthless veneer of charm, hiding the repulsive monster underneath.
You being an old military man, Hitler was the best Commander the Allies had. As a General he made a great Corporal. It is probably true to say Hitler is the most despised person in history, and that is saying something given the possibles, including Stalin, who should rate number 2, strangely they both existed at the same time. The most loved person in history is Jesus, and he may never have existed at all, says something about us humans.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 1 February 2015 5:31:24 AM
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Goring was a war hero as well and entitled to wear his medals if he wanted.
Paul there's no evidence of Hitler ever harming anyone outside his war service and he was respected and well liked by his comrades and superiors in the army. He wasn't mad, or a monster or a sociopath, he was known by all to be honest, generous and self effacing, he was however extremely intelligent and like many bosses did like to lecture his staff, to argue with them and put them through the intellectual wringer or play them off against one another for his own amusement. His worst quality was that he was a bit of a smart arse when dealing with people less intelligent or self assured than himself and could be mentally cruel to people who couldn't keep up with the frenetic pace he set in his headquarters.
In 1941 he received a diagnosis of an incurable heart problem, probably as a result of being gassed in WW1, that's why everything speeds up from that point, Hitler was dying.
Hitler had a lot of luck and only survived as long as he did because the Nazis were never a unified group, all the little factions had their own agendas. Had he not been assassinated Heydrich would have probably had Hitler arrested and we know all about von Stauffenberg and operation Valkyrie.
We can safely say thanks to the work of Holocaust historians such as professor Hilberg that Hitler knew nothing about what was going on in the camps and that no senior Nazi ever ordered the mass extermination of Jews or anyone else, only by focusing on the Soviet-German "total war" can we learn anything from WW2, everything else is trivia in comparison.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Sunday, 1 February 2015 6:55:15 AM
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Jay,

Goring was indeed a hero in WW I but he did have a craving for medals and decorations and not all that he wore were deserved, the "Grand Cross of the Iron Cross " comes to mind.
Posted by Is Mise, Sunday, 1 February 2015 3:12:09 PM
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Jay, a revisionist version of Hitler history if ever I have read one. Now you present Hitler as a "good bloke", just misunderstood.
Alan Bullock who wrote Hitler: A Study in Tyranny in 1952, believed Hitler to be an “entirely unprincipled opportunist who was prepared to say, and do, anything necessary to get power.” Ian Kershaw, a more recent writer, makes points for both the traditionalists, and functionalists. He makes a point of showing how Hitler was able to out-manoeuvre political opponents. Right-wing nationalists thought they could manipulate Hitler but he was smarter than that. He was not only a brilliant statesman, but a brilliant rhetorician. He knew exactly how to manipulate a crowd, and appeal to the different audiences he dealt with.

"And so he [the Jew] advances on his fatal road until another force comes forth to oppose him, and in a mighty struggle hurls the heaven-stormer back to Lucifer. Germany is today the next great war aim of Bolshevism. It requires all the force of a young missionary idea to raise our people up again, to free them from the snares of this international serpent."
-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

From Hitler's writings and speeches it is self evident what his future intentions for Jews and other inferior peoples (his view) was.

And you say; "His worst quality was that he was a bit of a smart arse"
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 1 February 2015 4:32:21 PM
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