This is getting very confusing, Is Mise.

>>Trinitarianism may be but a political stance but it is a stance that is held by the majority of Christians<<

If Christianity is a political doctrine, then I can readily accept that Cardinal Dolan was making a political statement when he said "we love God and he is the same God". But I fail to see how that makes his declaration any less true. Unless of course you equate "political statement" with "lying through his teeth", which although cynical, is at some level at least highly credible.

This is less confusing, though.

>>...it is a stance that is held by the majority of Christians and thus makes the God of the Christians different to the God of Islam and the God of Judaism<<

This underlines the basic problem with religions - any religion. It says "because I believe it, it must be true". The rationality of the belief itself is never questioned, and the faith itself is maintained regardless of any evidence that might cause doubt in the believer. It says "God is defined by my beliefs", which apart from being an entirely unhelpful distinction, and the reason why it is impossible to reconcile, leads you to the inescapable conclusion that the God of the Protestants is different to the God of the Catholics. The logic is identical, after all.

And Constance, I guess you might be referring to Samir Khalil Samir...

>>I have come across an excellent interview by an Egyptian Jesuit scholar on Islam which is highly convincing as it makes complete sense... Atheist fundamentalists like yourself would not like it.<<

If we are talking here about his reaction to Evangelii Gaudium, he says exactly what I would expect a Jesuit scholar to say.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350689?eng=y

He was appalled to hear the Pope say of Muslims "together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day", and had to quickly put it into another context. The consummate spin-doctor reaction.

Just propaganda. Just politics.

Pericles,
I am a Christian who does not believe in a Trinity for God is One Spirit revealed in character, actions, and wisdom. God is not spatial or human, but is revealed in the character, actions and wisdom expressed in Christ Jesus. Those that believe in three persons in a Godhead hold to a 1700 year old Roman Catholic Nicaea creed that did not differentiate between the physical created and the spiritual. They place the physicality of Jesus into an eternal dimension, Jesus body was a very human mortal creature. However all that said. Christians should all agree on the character, actions and wisdom of Jesus, that it expressed the heart of God to our World. Care for the sick, raise the fallen, free those captive by injustice or abuse, reconcile the sinner, forgive the repentant, demonstrate care for an enemy..

Pericles,
You don't get it do you?
As the Christian's definition of their God is different to the Muslim's definition and the Jew's definition then they cannot all be worshiping the same God.

Regardless of the truth or otherwise of the existence of God and regardless of Cardinal Dolan's statement, (his God is a trinitarian one [three-in-one]), the three faiths do not worship the same God.

This story is an example of why the West has a problem and why we are doomed.
Dan Hodges (UK), Leftist columnist and ex-labor leader, writes…
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100284741/britains-muslims-are-failing-to-integrate-we-need-to-find-out-why/

…We can’t carry on like this. We just can’t…. Something is broken. Terribly broken. We are now being confronted on a monthly basis with fresh evidence of our failure – and it is a collective failure – to successfully integrate the British Muslim community within British society.
,,,Each time one of these fresh abuses comes to light we undergo the same ritual. A report will be issued, and a sombre statement read out in the House of Commons. We will be stunned by what is revealed, and say to ourselves “How can this have happened?

,,,It was only a relatively small number of men responsible for the Rotherham rapes. But the Muslim community as a whole created the environment that allowed the abuse to continue.

,,,, I don’t know why we have a specific problem of Muslim integration. I’m not sure anyone does. Britain’s Muslims are failing to integrate. We need to find out why

End of quotes.

The facts are right, but somehow these people can’t link A to B. Hodges knows there is a serious problem but after a generation of Muslim immigration and multicultural indoctrination he and other Western elites have no idea of the “why” of the problem. Note that he characterizes the problem as “our failure”, a “we” issue, not a “they” issue. If only we do something, all will be better…

Our leaders are clueless. They will blame anybody expect the perpetrators of evil. They are unwilling to accept that a religious-based nonwestern culture teaches hate and violence. So they amuse themselves in a rhetorical masturbation that asks why without any desire to uncover answers that are anathema to those elites. And so the charade goes on and we sink lower and closer to the abyss.

Mr Hodges, may I answer your question? ...because Islam teaches hate, discrimination and violence against non-Muslims. Because the values of Islam are incompatible with those of Western civilization. Duhhhh

People will switch back and forth between two contradictory positions with the greatest of ease when defending an untenable belief, and this thread appears to be no exception.

When confronted with the fact that over 4000 gods have been invented since the birth of religion, a religious pluralism is often embraced and it is claimed that they’re all the same god (usually the Abrahamic god) revealing themselves to different cultures in different ways. Then, when someone points out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god, a religious exclusivism is adopted and suddenly they’re not the same anymore.

There’s ‘different gods’, and then there’s ‘different beliefs about a god’. Thor and Yahweh are different gods; Yahweh and Allah are the same god (i.e. the Abrahamic god). Anyone who claims that Christians and Muslims believe in different gods, simply because they believe different things about that god, must then rationally determine the point at which a god becomes two. How many beliefs must differ before a god believed in by two populations is no longer the same god?

Following the logic of some here, there are actually billions of gods being worshipped on this planet, not just thousands. Each individual has their own specific beliefs about who god is and what they want, and funnily enough, they always seem to agree with the believer.

Oh, but I think I do, Is Mise.

>>Pericles, You don't get it do you? As the Christian's definition of their God is different to the Muslim's definition and the Jew's definition then they cannot all be worshiping the same God.<<

That theory suggests that there are as many Gods as there are definitions. Which is, of course, one of the aspects of religion that as an atheist, I have the most extreme difficulty crediting to otherwise intelligent and articulate people.

But there are also some interesting internal contradictions inherent in your assertion that the Jewish God, the God of Abraham, is not the same God that makes an appearance in the New Testament. According to Matthew, Jesus told the Sadducees:

"...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?"

Which rather echoes Moses' burning bush discussion:

"God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses... I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Same God, or different?

You now have God himself, Jesus himself, the Pope and Cardinal Timothy Dolan, all disagreeing with your version of God.

Which is of course quite ok, because as far as you are concerned, that is their definition, not yours, or Constance's or Josephus', and therefore a different God entirely.

Such a logical challenge is always going to cause problems, when you rely upon your imagination to determine what is real, and what is not.