What does Multiculturalism cost us.

In Rotherham the citizens have just found it has cost them the gang rape, intimidation and the degradation of 1400, or more, girls aged from 11 years.

In France and other European countries it has cost them dearly by way of riots by ethnic groups, more rapes and violence with hundreds of cars and property being burnt.

Can this happen in Australia? You bet it can! We have already seen racial gang rapes and ethnic violence, but have we learnt from that or the UK and European experiences? After 20 years of FGM being illegal not one person has yet faced court, because prosecutors have turned a blind eye for 'cultural considerations'.

It is high time we stopped and took stock of where we are heading with non discriminatory immigration. It appears that the commonality in these cases is Islamic culture and yet we import some 30,000 muslim immigrants a year by my estimates. We should stop immigration of people from those groups that cannot/will not integrate. Not to do so puts our citizenry at risk. Violence is so much a part of Islam it is far more than 'just a few'.

We should not accept that our politicians, both Federal and State, are so scared of being labelled racist that they will not act to protect our society. And we allow them to chase the ethnic vote.

Let Rotherham be an object lesson for us.

Good idea Banjo, let's round up all the convicted rapists and paedophiles in Australia and take away their citizenship and deport them to an uninhabited island.

Unfortunately, there are rapists and paedophiles in all countries and amongst all races.

The problem is much more than multiculturalism – It is Islam, a religion that teaches hate, discrimination, domination of others and violence.

For a deep look at this issue, I strongly suggest this link:
http://lawandfreedomfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Easy-Meat-Multiculturalism-Islam-and-Child-Sex-Slavery-05-03-2014.pdf

The latest scandal, in Rotherham, is just another case in a long line of sad, tragic crimes committed by Muslims against innocent children. It is no different, except in scale, than the 2000 Sydney gang rapes committed by Lebanese Australians.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2002/s607757.htm

Perhaps the best story on the current atrocities in the UK is this article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

This is nothing but people --evil people-- doing that the Quran and hadith teach. It is Muslim men doing what Mohammed and his men did to his peaceful neighbors – at least that is what Islam’s own writings tell us, not that Muslims are going to be honest about the most basic texts in Islam. All we hear from the Muslim community, including the so-called moderates, is excuses and blaming others.

Anybody that cares a damn about our lives and freedoms should understand what (almost all) our leaders are doing to us. They have turned their backs on the Western tradition of freedoms, equality and human rights and replaced it with a politically correct policy of kumbayah that is blind to evil and lawlessness. Well, maybe 'selective about' would be a better word than blind. This new mentality basically sets different standards and different rights for different people and groups --ie., abusing children is not really wrong if it is done by certain people.

Look what this mentality has done to a city in Sweden:
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2012/08/the-malmo-experiment.html

And last, but not least, about the joys of multicultural mutilation:
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/europe/090916/scandinavia-female-genital-mutilation

Suse,

"Unfortunately, there are rapists and paedophiles in all countries and amongst all races."

Yes, there are, but most races, people, countries and religions don't consider rapists and paedophiles to be great moral examples, but some do.

Good people don't ignore simple facts about abominable crimes against children, particularly children. Other people do, because feeling good about themselves and their ego is more important than the suffering of innocents

Suseonline>>Unfortunately, there are rapists and paedophiles in all countries and amongst all races.>>

Yes Suse that is a fact....but the “home grown” rapists and paedophiles are not going to call for all women to wear a bag over their head or call for the legal circumcision of little girls,etc etc.....ongoing.

Suseonline,

You should explain your 'logic' to Lara Logan,

http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2011/02/16/lara-logan-cbs-reporter-and-warzone-it-girl-raped-repeatedly-amid-egypt-celebration

and Natasha Smith,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2165744/British-journalist-Natasha-Smith-22-recalls-horrific-sexual-assault-Egypts-Tahrir-Square.html

Just to take a couple of examples.

Maybe you should travel a bit, get out of Australia and learn.

Once again the people who see something wrong with multiculturalism take aim at the symptoms not the cause.
The problem with multiculturalism is White liberal attitudes, not Brown religions or customs.
All bar one of the responsible officers were White, the majority are women:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11060102/Rotherham-the-council-leaders-who-presided-over-child-abuse-scandal.html
Did you all know that Dr Sonia Sharp has since emigrated to Australia and is working for the Victorian education department?
An Age investigation revealed exactly the same problems with immigrant men preying on girls in care in Shepparton and Dandenong, the Police laid charges against one ringleader an Afghan named Emran Dad and took out AVO's against several other men to prevent them from going near children:
http://www.mmg.com.au/local-news/shepparton/teen-prostitution-ring-operator-jailed-1.38203
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-03-11/criminal-gangs-enticing-children-in-state-care-into-prostitution/5313632

The simple fact is that we are a peace loving nation and that garbage has no place here, not in our society. If seeing the number of so called Australians (locally born Muslims) leaving, or wanting to leave our shores is not proof enough that this religion/faith is not the cause, then what proof does one need.

We should ban islam from our country, not tomorrow, not next year, but today. Because if we don't, we will pay the ultimate price.

The feather duster approach has not worked, nor has calling on their leaders to bring these grubs into line. The time has come to unite and rid our peace loving nation of this garbage.

Butch,
It's not Islam, it's White liberal attitudes, the fact that we have Muslims in this country at all is a symptom of a problem with our own people.
90% of asylum applications are fraudulent, these are men on the run from the law in their own country and contrary to what the SJW's say the "leaky boat" route is the easiest and most secure way of transferring their criminal operations to greener pastures.
Social Justice Warriors live in a fantasy world, when you confront them with information which contradicts their narrative they will either try and change the subject or become emotional.
C'mon,everyone knows not all races, much less ideas and customs are equal, it's just that some people want to live in make believe worlds and never return to reality.
Social Justice Warriors are no different to people who get addicted to online games, the fantasy world and the people they meet there are so much nicer than real life that they don't want to come back, in SJW land every Third World urchin has the potential to be a noble Paladin like themselves.

Oh dear, not another Banjo drum beat. Muslims and sex, sex and Muslims, immigrants and sex, sex and immigrants, sex and multiculturalism, multiculturalism and sex. Hell mate do you have any other tune in that playbook? Now where is our runner? This is honey pot stuff for him especially if they are under aged.

Of course this is an issue for England where British Pakistani young men react against clash between western sexual freedoms and Pakistani cultural constrains on women within their ethnic group.

And it is an issue worth monitoring in this country. But whenever you dress it up in an immigrant bashing exercise any serious consideration of the subject flies completely out the window.

For anyone wishing to explore the issue more deeply without the explosive xenophobia oozing out of Banjo's every pore then this BBC documentary is a really good start.

http://watchdocumentary.org/watch/exposed-groomed-for-sex-video_55b0b48a4.html

Sexual exploitation however is never confined to ethnic groups it just takes different guises. Here we tend to export our predators. AFP figures reveal nearly a quarter of those Australians on our sexual offenders list who travel overseas fly to Dempensar in Bali where the problem of child sex exploitation is a huge issue. Lobbying for the Australian government to put a stop to predatory Australian males being inflicted on poorer Asian countries has so far fallen on deaf ears and we have only had one conviction under the child sex tourism laws that were brought in in 2010.

Steele,
Could it be that both "grooming" and child sex tourism are massively overstated issues?
We're talking about tens of people a year detected for these types of offences and as usual as citizen philosophers we have only figures tainted by Feminist theory on which to base our evaluation of the prevalence of child abuse.
There's also a difference between law enforcement looking into these issues and not finding anything and SJW's deliberately covering up crimes, as happened in Rotherham.
The Police in Australia have nothing to lose by pursuing these offenders, all the details of the case will be suppressed until after the trial so nobody will call them "racist" or cast any aspersions upon them, plus no SJW is going to come out and openly support an accused child molester.
The crux of the matter is that we know we can't trust our own people to do the right thing even where they detect serious misconduct, immigrant criminals are going to do what they do regardless of anything the SJW's say but there's clearly a very serious problem with politically correct Whites enabling their behaviour.
Let's be frank, White SJW's will overlook child rape to maintain their narrative,keep their jobs and their sense of self esteem gained through social acceptance we can't pin that on "Muslims".
See Whites need social acceptance almost like oxygen, it's a precondition for our wellbeing, that's what political correctness really is to the SJW and that's why people who are self centred, or only out for what they can get simply run rings around the officials.
Do you think the "vulnerable" youth themselves don't know how to play the SJW's?

Quote: The problem with multiculturalism is White liberal attitudes, not Brown religions or customs.

No, it is both “White” liberal attitudes and “Brown” religions or customs that are the problem -- even if the terms White and Brown are very imprecise. I think the issue is better defined as “Western” and “Muslim”, respectively.

I blame western (English officials, in this case) authorities and leaders as much as the evil men (Muslims) who are responsible for these horrid crimes. I think they both groups should be strung up together on a gallows, side by side, holding hands.

I like Rehctub’s approach, but frankly, I think it is too late. Our leaders are too mushy to clearly understand the problem, much less take action. Western civilization, as in the case of all civilizations, is doomed – nations come and they go. Some civilizations fall because of external threats and enemies, some fall because of internal rot. We rot on the altar of multiculturalism.

BTW, where is our friend Ifty? This whole issue is right down his line. What a great chance to ruminate on the evils (moral laxity) of nonMuslim society! Those terrible slutty infidel children corrupted those wonderful Muslim Pakistani men. Shame on them (the girls, of course!)

Suse,

I think you said that you'd been a midwife; did you never see the consequences of FGM on some so mutilated, especially when giving birth?

I agree 100% with the posters on this subject. Well 95% but it is an open discussion. Our politicians are overdoing the 'multi cultural' good guy act. Maybe acting partly on doing their Christian deed, but indeed it does appear to be more a fear of themselves being seen to be racist.
The( majority) of these immigrants come defining themselves by their religion, therefore there can be no calling racism. Unfortunately, seemingly unbeknown to our fearless leaders, these religious extremists loathe and murder Christians, regardless of colour.
Its sad too, the fact that these males, even first generation Australians, still run in gangs terrorizing abusing raping and often killing innocents, committing the exact barbaric crimes we were lead to believe they fled here to escape.
These crimes are committed fearlessly with no regard for human life other than those of their own following.
And yes there are people of all religions who rape women and kids and commit terrible crimes. Regardless of race or religion. Despite the fact that in certain faiths these are considered a right, passed down through the generations, and passed on again. These crimes should not be over looked, sugar coated whatever, punishment to fit the severity of the crime.
As in Rotherham the guilt does lie, not only on those life- destroying child abusers, but certainly a number of those entrusted by Govt. council and community. The people with the experience, knowledge and determination (surely) now given the position and power to protect and save the young and vulnerable. Race religion or creed, all children should be allowed to grow up never having to experience abuse, molestation, mutilation. Those neglecting to do their job for whatever reason, whether there is solid evidence or not, if they dont step down from guilt should be stood down. Maybe even spend some quality time with the kids in the slums, wherever, to get a real life look at the purpose of his employment. Like any employee, dont put your hand out if you dont do your job. Ah Politicians again lol

Unfortunately, there are rapists and paedophiles in all countries and amongst all races.
Suseonlone,
Of course that makes it right & proper to do nothing. Good people sit back & relax you're excused from taking action because the Suseonline's of Australia say so.

Parliamentarians , a large number of whom, jet-set regularly to countries all over the world. Not entirely sure of the purpose, or the necessity of private jets and an entourage, I believe even family members on occasion. These important visits seem to be generally to western countries. To assist the Government in getting a better understanding of building multiculturalism back here in Oz, perhaps regular visits with family and entourage, to each of the main origins of our immigrants. Of course it would be quite difficult but a very learning experience.
As so many people not only of differing races but very differing religious followings and cultures enter Australia, they must have to go through an extremely lengthy process. Trying to learn a whole new culture and of course be willing to make some necessary cultural adjustments.
It would only be fair for our parliamentarians to show their fellow human beings just across the sea a shared willingness to welcome and adhere to their very valued beliefs and cultures. Spending this quality time would be very valuable although demanding of the utmost cooperation and respect. Learning of what are considered crimes and what are still not. Punishments I believe are severe and hold no leniency or compassion. In particular any ladies to partake in this humanitarian mission will be in for some extraordinary culture shocks.
It would almost be like unlearning your own ways and freedoms and starting afresh.

I probably wouldnt try encouraging them to join in the Lords Prayer at the beginning of the day but it would be an historical achievement if the edges of the square were smoothed off to get slightly closer to fitting in the circle. Could be a looong wait.
As for the violence in Sydney and God knows where else, by these 'determined to not fit in but intimidate' up and coming next generation of extremists, like any crime, no actually worse as this is a mini terrorism act. Punishment to fit the crime as a criminal. If jail time is ordered then deportation and black listing. Re offenders deportation black listing.

Individual,
See what I mean, Steele and Suse when faced with something which they can't compute simply change the subject and make excuses for sex offenders, "Even though I see the truth of the matter I can't talk about group A because it's not socially acceptable and I might lose face so I direct your attention to group B".
Muslims have their faith, gangsters have their gang, they don't need social acceptance the way White SJW's do.
The bare fact is that the average White SJW leads a meaningless life, the hollow fantasy world of Get Up! and the Huffington Post, Facebook groups, Twitter and and E-Harmony.

Jodelle,
The third and fourth generation Middle Eastern kids are the ticking bomb in our midst, they were little kids in 2001 but now they're young adults who've never known anything but the "War On Terror". These are the Tsarnaev brothers, the Woolwich killers,Mohammed Elomar, Khaled Sharrouf and Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary.
Yeah, sure we can accept that only a minority of Muslims support ISIS and the like, 15% would take up arms while 40% of Muslim adults agree with the Jihadi cause on principle but those numbers mean that in Australia we're talking about 50,000 potential terrorists.
We have a weak government and ineffective security services which would be crippled by political correctness in the event of any significant trouble, I seriously doubt that the state could contain a group of ten competent militants, much less a movement of thousands.
We'd have people like Suse and Steele using every means possible to undermine the response and protect the aggressors because people like that are everywhere in the public service.

Good afternoon to you BANJO...

I agree in principle with much of what you've said on the subject of unfettered or unregulated Islamic immigration into this country. Also, I've stated ad nauseam, it's my continued view Islamic immigration is totally incompatible and irreconcilable with both our Aussie culture and our historical Christian orthodoxy and conventionality.

There is another worrying feature that has arisen lately. It would now seem there's a distinct climate of apprehension concerning our own safety here in Oz. An infusion of fear that can be almost 'felt'.

It's even concerning out politicians, as well as many others, particularly those with high public profiles similar to 'talk-back' radio hosts. Though most are sufficiently adroit and circumspect, to ensure they don't engage in language of a kind that might be perceived as provocative, especially whenever they're speaking with an aggressive Islamic caller. Not only to avoid unnecessary and costly legal implications, comparable to the Andrew BOLT matter, a s.86c action. But a fear of reprisals from Islamic fanatics.

Am I over-reacting I hear you say ? Well perhaps I am, that was until I had a couple of 'cold one's' yesterday, with a long standing mate who's been in the electronic media for yonks. We got around to discussing the Syrian crisis and how many of the Aussie born, radicalized young Muslims were leaving our shores in order to fight in Syria and environs.

In response to one of my comments, that the media should 'tell it as it is' rather then being habitually politically correct. He shot back in an instant by saying, 'none of us wishes to be another 'Salman RUSHDIE' ?

Oh there's no doubt, there is fear out there alright, amongst some it's almost palpable !

Most of these young militants, believe the West including Oz, have become weak, paralysed by convention and political correctness, too culturally divided, and too complacent, to ever interdict this uprising of home-grown Islamic terrorism. And I think they're right.

Moreover it's my believe, it is the United Nations itself, that has significantly enervated and incapacitated the West !

I think we need to be careful what we say here.
Quite a lot of what I have said in the past and what many are saying
here could leave us liable to prosecution.
There are comments that refer to their race, such as referring from
whence they come. It is quite dangerous.
Perhaps Graham could advise if he would be obliged to pass on our real
email addresses and names if a warrant was presented ?

If enough were hugely offended it might even generate a prison sentence.

We need to keep the comments aimed at the religion and avoid anything
that might obliquely refer to race.

That said, I agree we need to stop muslem immigration and export as
many as possible.
Why should be we be responsible to sort the wheat from the chaff ?

Bazz,
The security services don't need Graham to pass on any information about our real identities, as the head of ASIO pointed out they already have access to IP numbers and other identifying material and can read everything that's posted online if they want to.
This is the only site on which I post under a pseudonym, if they haven't pounced on me for my Youtube comments and Google+ circles then they're obviously not interested in me at this point.
The people you have to worry about are non state Anti Racism groups who don't have the resources to gather information on their own and will bully, harass and threaten website owners to get what they want and then visit violence upon the individual posters.
If the security services want us they know where we are and if they choose to arrest us there's nothing we can do about it, 18c is unreasonable, the whole anti discrimination system is unreasonable, a fair trial is impossible so I don't lose any sleep worrying about what might happen.
Insha'Allah/Que sera,sera.

Am I over-reacting I hear you sayo sung wu,
No, if anything you're under-reacting if the present situation is anything to go by. The greedy hangers-on rather forfeit their families & freedom than admit that they're already scared to death by what's happening. But in their futile hope to gain some sort of leniency when the crap hits the fan, they'll be the first to cop it because of their hypocrisy which the new masters are fully aware of & exploit. It even helps speed up their agenda. Whites are quite stupid when it comes to their fear of losing in a materialistic way. That comes as a result of their stupidity to realise that their hypocrisy is as transparent as it can possibly be. The dreadful part is that they're dragging us down as well & we're not allowed to prevent it.

Yeah, Steele this is another rant by me about authorities doing absolutely nothing to protect vulnerable citizens from alien cultural practices. I make no apology for posting my views. In fact I will continue to post about these issues while ever you and others, like Suse, continue to play the matters down and make excuses. I will also continue to lobby the polys and shame them, if possible, until they take action and enforce the laws.

What I would like to see is for our government to stop immigration of persons from those groups that hold our standards and laws in contempt. The politicians and the political parties have failed us miserably.

I can only assume Steele, that people such as yourself believe these girls should feel enlightened by their multicultural experiences. That sickens me, and you merely suggest we monitor the situation.

Kactuz, full marks for posting those links and I hope some take the time to read them. The vigour and resources the Yorkshire police are putting into the pursuit of Cliff Richard and the ignoring of the crimes against the 1400 girls is classic example of multicultural hypocracy.

G'day there INDIVIDUAL...

It's all rather sad really, here we are responsible adults with only the welfare and survival of our great country on our minds, yet we're not heard, nor are we considered worthy enough to have an opinion, nor possess a legitimate view.

If we were heard, and our views and opinions considered sufficiently meritorious and deserving, why on earth aren't our political representatives enacting exactly what the majority of Australian want! Instead of teetering about and 'quivering like jelly', a collective mass of total indecision. All the while trying hard to both indulge and assuage every paltry whim these radical Islamic Imams want, in order to advance their violent fundamentalism against us, and the West !

INDIVIDUAL my friend, we both live in the finest and nicest country on this earth. With the weakest, and the most 'timid' possible, of all political governance ! A political cadre who'd sooner capitulate to a revolutionary Islamic agitator, than support just one of those many millions of hardworking taxpayers, who actually elected them into power !

What a sad state of affairs !

we have seen the crocodile tears of the 'progressives'when their policies led to thousands of deaths of illiegals by drowning. We have seen the moral outrage against the Catholic church for their repulsive behavior but then the denials, their pig headedness and stupdity when it comes to child abuse among Islamist and the indigenoeus communities. The rampant sexual abuse among the Islamist does not fit the 'regressives' and feminist narratives so they make such dumb statements as Steele and Susie.

O sung,
The great fear I have is that even though the government would be slow to react to a Jihadi attack the people wouldn't.
At some point, most likely sooner than later something will happen which will so outrage non Muslim Australians that they'll carry out reprisal attacks, then the state will crack down on our people while still trying to appease the Muslims and it'll all spiral out of control.
If there's a terrorist attack in Sydney then we know what the response from lower class Whites will be, we know the government and Police will side with the Muslims and we know the SJW's will work with the Jihadis to attack innocent White people, then it'll be tit for tat violence like we see on a daily basis in Europe.
Abbott's warmongering makes this scenario a virtual certainty, if he sends the SAS and the air force to Iraq then we can expect an attack to occur in short order.

Hello there JAY OF MELBOURNE...

What you say is most definitely a possibility, young 'hotheads' who spoil for a fight, notwithstanding the actual agenda, could precipitate violence of a kind where the police are left with little or no alternative but to respond very heavily indeed. What usually occurs in circumstances similar to these, the true culprits become almost unidentifiable, consequently civil insurrection even anarchy may well prevail:-

And you've guessed it JAY of M. anarchy and large scale incertitude, is exactly the prescription these Islamic fundamentalists are seeking ! Turning Aussie against Aussie, Anglo Saxon against Asian and so on ! But not to worry my friend, our political leaders have it all in hand ?

Dear o sung wu,

It is not a sad state of affairs at all.

We have a multicultural society that is the envy of the world. It is robust, it works, and despite what you say it is supported by the vast majority of Australians. If you think otherwise show me the proof otherwise I will consider yours a demographic lament.

But that is not to say it doesn't need both protection and support from those who would seek to tear it down. One such individual is Banjo. To me his rants are un-Australian and threatening much of what this country should be justly proud of. Why else would he so determinately search the world for instances of misdeeds from the other side of the globe to attack our multiculturalism. He is a direct and very real threat to our society and in my opinion needs to be countered at every turn.

I acknowledge you see things differently though it still disturbs me whenever I see you getting cuddly with a self confessed Holocaust denier and Nazi supporter.

Dear runner,

So when Christians set up their rape camps in Bosnia was this just an aberration or based on the way you think all Christians should now be considered raping low life and any who try to come to this country be forcefully turned away?

I'd like to make an observation about Isis

and the lightning speed with which they have
taken most of Iraq,beaten the Kurds (until America gave them
a bit of support) and taken half oF Syria as well,
to the point that Asaud now fears them and is willing
to get onside with America to defeat them.

All of this in what? 2 or 3months (not sure of the exact time)
but it sure seemed fast.

Compare that to the 10years America and allies spent trying
to subdue and control that country.
Isis has taken control and shut down opposition
very quickly and very efficiently.

Why? because they fought a ruthless war without any concessions to civil libertarians or the United Nations.
Dont' get me wrong, the idea of Isis makes my skin crawl and they will
set these muslim countries back 1000 years much to the misery of the
people they oppress.

But you have to ask how a super-power like America went to war
and failed to do in 10years what Isis did in a short few months.

And the answer is that America was forced to fight a gentlemanly war
with the whole world watching to see if they made one wrong move
that might offend somebody. You will never win a war that way,
Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Napolean, Ghankis Khan couldn't
have won any wars or conquered any countries if they had fought according to those rules. I think the old conquerors would have
fought more like Isis. Having said that I find it appalling to watch
the cruelty and death unfolding too. But they never had satellite TV
in those days. So they didn't fight with a a camera looking over
their shoulder all the time.

So now they may be forced to fight the war all over again,

.
How did this get so bad and why? Why? is presenting itself as a tricky question for anyone to answer.
The use of the word racism is being abused , used as a scape goat and a weak excuse, creating so much fear into some countries leading representatives, law enforcement and other public servants of being accused of being Racist.
To not act according to the law, precluding ones self from involvement in preventing a crime against one of your local kids, or carrying out lawful arrests, and lastly treating the child as the perpetrator. Then leaving these hateful, brutal pigs at the scene of the crime without a word. How empowering that must be for them. Surely as immigrants with faith and beliefs very unlike our own, they would have had to take time to get to understand our culture. What their beliefs allow them to do are considered punishable crimes in our culture, so knowing full well they have leaped the boundaries, and now if there was any at all know they have nothing to fear. This sets a really bad precedent due to the instilled fear of the racist tag. After all they would be aware if the crims nationality and most likely their beliefs, not their name tho. Carry out his lawful duty, arrest and impound the prisoner.He is obviously not going to present the crims as b..ck b....ds etc which would be racist. To present them as Palestinians or as they like to define themselves, Moslem, not an ounce of racism there. In fact they have abused our laws instantly and repeatedly and we have treated them respectfully.
more empowerment.
Why? The Swedish Govt began welcoming immigration from the Middle East. Integrating opposing cultures to 'improve multiculturalism'.As may have been expected, the Muslims hadnt come to shake hands and make friends, with mortal enemies. They overpowered the Swiss and brutalized whoever they could.
Despite the ongoing rapes of children and continual bloodshed, the leaders basically wiped their hands of the situation. Leaving them to the mercy of the remorseless and hateful.

Steele,
There you go again, changing the subject.
You do understand that the "rape camps" never existed right? http://www.chomsky.info/onchomsky/20091123.htm
It's completely fictional atrocity porn like the Libyan "viagra rape squads" or the Nazi "Joy Division".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_exploitation

You get your worldview from pornographic fiction, we get our worldview from the real world.

SteeleRedux,
I have no doubt in my mind that you are a 100% moron. Not only are you a moron, you're a traitor who supports the downfall of Australia. If you were in an islamic country you'd be pursued until you couldn't cause any more harm. It makes me feel so utterly sad that there are people like you in our midst. You are one of the clearest indicatons yet that our biggest enemies are the likes of you because of their boundless stupidity.
What you describe is not multiculturalism because if there truly were such a thing why does it not work ? I tell you why, because of morons like you !

Individual,
You're right, the public service is full of Steele's and Susies.
It's the same broken record, like when they disparagingly talk about us wanting to go back to the 1950's when we all understand that the Left back then was at least in status quo with the state and commanded something like 80% of the workforce.
Even where a return to the staus quo of the 1950's would see an increase in their stake in public life they still can't step out of their fantasy world inhabited by oppressed brown Muslim people and evil White Christian "racists"
The Left has gone from being able to marshal industrial armies to whining about boat people on Twitter while conservatives ride roughshod over society.
It's so bad for the SJW's, their lives are so empty and pointless now that they're reduced to sucking up to and apologising for Jihadis and child molesters, well we know how that ends for the bleeding hearts don't we?
http://journalofamadman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/rememberJamesFoley.jpg

Oh Dear, everywhere they go they are trouble.
Even in their own countries they are trouble.
All their countries are poor, even the ones with oil.

Multiculturalism didn't fail, it never worked.

It certainly did not work in the Middle East.
The Malcolm Frasers of this world did us all a big disfavour when their
ego led us down that path.

I hate to think what will happen here when the next big GFC happens,
and it will happen and the US won't have a short term buffer.

Steele,
You are great for a laugh.

Busy moving house, will post again later.

OOOOW WHA! Steele.

<<it still disturbs me whenever I see you getting cuddly with a self confessed Holocaust denier and Nazi supporter>>

Now you're in trouble Steele. You just just implied that all Nazi's were the same and there was something wrong with being a Nazi.

I expect Foxy will be along real soon to tear strips off you. On another thread she called someone else a common garden variety bigot for doing similar about another group. So if she is true to form you will be copping an earful real soon now.

SPQR,
It's just an another attempt to change the subject.
See I repudiate the belief in a "Holocaust" precisely because it's a belief, an article of faith and as an atheist I cannot accept beliefs at all.
Similarly I express an admiration for National Socialism because it stripped away the belief systems of the old world and challenged the German people to look toward the new.
Everyone knows not all people are equal and that the lives of lesser people are not worth as much as those of greater people, it's just that some choose to believe that they are. The National Socialists proposed the creation of the "new man" out of the clay of the Germanic race, a healthy, strong, intelligent Volk who would lead the world from their capital in Europe.
The Social Justice Warriors on the other hand glorify and champion the weak, the defective, the criminal and the insane, in this case it's easy to see why they are defending child molesters and Jihadis, they must see so much of themselves in ISIS and the Rotherham pimps.
The problem is that "Social Justice" doesn't cut it with ISIS as James Foley found out, they're working toward the goal of their own "new man", the healthy, intelligent, strong Muslim superman leading the world from his capital in the Middle East

It must be very hard for the ABC to determine whether multiculturalism triumps over feminism or vice versa. They are in so much denial or to dumb to see their own dilemma. You often the Women's spokesperson for Islam who would not be allowed say boo in their country. Her mantra is always 'Islam is a religion of peace.' They often try desperately hard to avoid calling any of the Islamic barbarism for what it is. Then you have the Western feminist who sit in silence. No amount of rape, death and child abuse seem to care to them unless of course done by the white. The others do it because they are poor and oppressed. To the progressive Tomy Abbott punching the air 30 years ago is more evil than rape claims against their own. I mean it did take up 3 days news.

To the Middle Eastern countries who I imagine within a flash would be bearing arms ready for war, surely, unfortunately, know they are steps ahead of Australia. As has been mentioned...alot... our leaders dont inspire confidence in most. Any immigrants found to be supporting terrorism will not receive any unemployment or pension allowance.Oooh that'll fix em. (correct me if I have been misinformed). Im sure their reaction to an Australian suspected of the same in their country, would be that of a hardened, war ready army.

The attempts by the Swedish Govt and others, to boost integration, by inviting thousands of middle easterners to take up residence in nearby Swedish towns, was a failure from the beginning. Bloodshed and anarchy resulted. The immigrants as in parts of England didnt arrive in a foreign country as asylum seekers, they arrived as fighting people ready to fight. How these European politicians thought they were doing anyone a service was pretty ignorant. Surely they at least must have been aware that they fight their own people (opposing religions?)
Im not sure.) You would think there must have been a flicker of a red flag. Cups of tea with white Christians?
They were prepared to bite the bullet to promote multiculturalism, or prepared to risk the lives of the people for something more valuable
to the Government.
Another desperate action to appease and appeal to their kinder nature, to a force far beyond their grasp. Whether successful or not I dont know, but more than likely having lost the votes of the people for his callous abandonment of them.

I would be really interested to hear Peter Cosgroves opinion of our Governments complacency and limp wristed stance amidst the unease.

Her mantra is always 'Islam is a religion of peace.'
runner et al,
In case you haven't seen this clip yet which I posted a while ago.
It is the best of all replies to-date.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204326980673843&set=vb.1209145283&type=2&theater

our Governments complacency and limp wristed stance
jodelie,
It certainly does appear that way but I'm hopeful (a little) that once they got past the Labor hurdles of the past they will get cracking in earnest. Don't fool yourself into believing that so much damage can be overcome in one three-year term. Recovery always demands more effort & resources then causing the damage. I say one more term will see this lot in a much more favourable light. Of course the media & the Left will portray conservatism in as bad a light as possible no matter how much sense is put in full view of them. I say give it one more term then start thinking about alternatives. It is way too soon now.

You can see reports to day of the SJW's trying to shut down the World Congress Of Families conference out at Catch The Fire Ministries in Hallam but where were they when Islamic groups held their peace conference at the Melbourne showgrounds last year?
Take the wilder theories of the WCF crowd and throw in a dose of anti Semitism and you have conservative Sunni Islam, yet ironically it was only Danny Nalliah and his people who turned up to witness this peace conference and document the material which was being promoted there, the SJW's were nowhere to be seen.
http://catchthefire.com.au/2013/03/islamic-peace-conference-in-melbourne-a-real-failure/
So the inner city Feminists and other SJW's will organise to picket a Christian gathering on the outskirts of town but not an Islamic group giving out an almost identical message in their own back yard.
We know why this is, the Muslims would bash them if they tried to disrupt their conference or picketed a Mosque, keep that image of James Foley's severed head in your uppermost in your minds SJW's, that's what Muslims think of your "tolerant", "pluralistic" values.

'We know why this is, the Muslims would bash them if they tried to disrupt their conference or picketed a Mosque, keep that image of James Foley's severed head in your uppermost in your minds SJW's, that's what Muslims think of your "tolerant", "pluralistic" values.

u got it in one Jay

Good afternoon to you STEELEREDUX...

So our attempts at multiculturalism is the envy of the world you say ? Who's world ? I agree there are many nationalities who make superb citizens and integrate quite successfully into our Aussie culture.

These are people originating from far off (earlier on, war-torn) Europe, mostly from a Christian tradition, all of whom possess very similar ideals, aspirations, and expectancy, in fact many of their goals are inextricably linked to those of our own life ambitions - a good education, a job, own home, happy marriage, and a loving family.

Your initial statement would've been more precise had you said, a vast number of Australians like, and have wholly embraced migrants from European countries that observe normal Christian orthodoxy, that is fundamentally true, STEELEREDUX.

However what most Australians don't want, are individuals who originate from Islamic countries, and who bring their insurrectionary Islamism with them; and instead of trying to assimilate into the Australian culture, continue to wholly engage in their primitive barbarism, by blindly following the edicts of their radicalised (backyard) Imam's, in pursuit of their medieval sharia law.

Another matter STEELEREDUX, by employing insulting, offensive, and disparaging language, in order to offend BANJO and others herein, simply because they dare disagree with your somewhat perverted and prejudiced views, is quite deplorable, thus rendering you as an arrogant and imperious individual !

Finally, in your opening paragraph, you demand proof from me ? Then your argument is similarly lamentable, as it has absolutely no basis in fact either ? And your use of the adjective 'demographic' to preface 'lamentable' puzzles me somewhat ?

Dear O Sung Wu,

Peter Costello in his Memoirs outlined some
of the following thoughts:

He describes Australia as a successful
multicultural society. And it is in the sense that
people from all different backgrounds have in the
past lived together in harmony. We have had government
policies from successive governments (and programs
to implement them) that have made our country successful
in this regard, and so very different from the UK and
Europe. However the emphasis has always been that
there is a predominant culture just as there is a
predominant language.

And the political and cultural institutions that govern
Australia are absolutely critical to that attitude of
harmony and tolerance. Costello stresses that
within an institutionalised
framework that preserves tolerance and protects order
we can celebrate and enjoy diversity be it in food,
music, theatre, religion, language, and culture.
However we could not do that without the framework which
guarantees the freedom for all - to enjoy diversity.

Terrorists and radicals - are those who do not
acknowledge the rights and liberties of others. They are
the ones who forfeit the right to join in
Australian citizenship. Their refusal to acknwledge the
rule of law as laid down by our democratic institutions
stabs at the heart of our country. There is one law we are
all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the
Australian Parliament under the Australian Constitution.

Thankfully, the majority of Muslims in the country do accept it.
The radicals and extremists are a minority. Worrying yes,
of course, but a minority nevertheless. As David Irvine
(head of ASIO) stated clearly - it would be totally unfair
to blame the majority of Australian Muslims for the actions
of the radical Islamists - who mis-use their religion to
suit their own political ends. As we know - the media
covers their actions because they're newsworthy -
even though they're not typical.

We have a robust tolerance of difference in our society.
But to maintain this tolerance we have to have an agreed
framework which will protect the rights and liberties of all.

Come on, guys, give Steele a break...

When he says "We have a multicultural society that is the envy of the world. It is robust, it works" he means it works for immigrants, specially Muslims.

Muslims come to the West, they bring Mohammed ("I am made victorious with terror") and Allah ("I will strike terror into the hearts of unbelievers") with them and the stupid infidels roll out the red carpet and sing kumbayah.

Our elites -- political, the media, academia, churches, government, etc -- do everything in their power to subvert our culture and civilization. There is no rational explanation for this. I can only think of the old quote "Those whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad" --- we are all mad, as in crazy.

Another name that comes to mind is Enoch Powel -- his "Rivers of Blood" speech may be considered the zero point for all the multicultural madness. They said he was crazy, a racists and his projections and warning were absurd.

Oh yes, lets not talk about Muslims. Instead, lets use call they Pakistanis, Lebanese or whatever. Perry de Havilland (London) says he never… ever… heard a person of Pakistani or Arab origins called ‘Asian’ in the UK other than in the mainstream media. Never. Not even once. His comments about such were deleted by the Guardian, of course. Asian is so deliciously vague -- could be chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Pakistani, Iranian, Japanese.... After all, they are all practically identical. Hundreds of articles have been written about the tragic Rotherham events, but the words Islam and Muslims almost never appear.

I also think of the dialog about words in Carroll's masterpiece, but instead of meaning different things, words now mean nothing -- to some people, or they are deliberately mislabeled, like writing 'honey' on a bottle of poison.

...
(continued)

The “Islam” problem cannot be resolved because our leaders have their heads in the sand (or sewer). Fact is that “elites” see no evil except if related to Western European civilization.

In its first report on Rotherham, BBC does not mention any ethnicity or religion, just vague statements saying the perpetrators belonged to an ethnic group and identifying them may be racist.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-28939089

On Channel 4 News (UK), the ceo of Barnardo’s, Mr Khan, refused to give an answer to a question about the ethnicity involved, saying we should not focus on the identity of the perpetrators because it “distracted attention” from the victims. In another program, Radio 4 held a lively discussion about how jihadists (tired of beheading and massacring people in Iraq) could be “reintegrated” into British society. Cute.

The NYTimes has a problem using the word “evil” with Islamic terror, saying it is ‘seductive’ but counter productive. JamesDawes, on CNN, says using the word evil “stops us from thinking.”
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-0826-goldberg-isis-evildoers-20140826-column.html

The FBIs just released 60-page National Threat Assessment for Domestic Extremism, dated Aug14, about activities of domestic extremist movements—feature none motivated by Islam. They include anti-government militia groups, white supremacy extremists, “sovereign citizen” nationalists, and anarchists. One possible explanation for the omission of Islamist extremism in the report is provided in a footnote describing an “other” category of domestic extremism, which includes extremists motivated by beliefs”

The report left out all references to the April 2013 bombing of the Boston Marathon and the 2009 Fort Hood shootings by Nidal “Allahu Akbar” Hasan (officially “workplace violence.”). Rep. Louie Gohmert (R, Texas) said that the FBI was ordered to purge references to Islam, jihad, and Muslims in its counterterrorism lexicon.

It goes on and on. Western leaders are betraying their people, and Muslims pretending they accept our values, sometimes… An Aug. 20 statement signed by more than 60 Australian Muslim community leaders and organizations argues that there was no real terrorist threat: "There is no solid evidence to substantiate this threat. Rather, racist caricatures of Muslims as backwards, prone to violence and inherently problematic are being exploited". Right!

Hello there FOXY...

As always you prosecute your case both concisely and with a great degree of humility. You're also correct in what you say, there are many good, law abiding people who are as Aussie as you and me, and who practice their Muslim faith in a dignified and private fashion. In fact there were several that I knew personally, who were members of NSW Police, and better coppers you'd never meet !

These people have left their former homes, expressly for the purpose of making a new life for themselves and their families. In fact the brother of one of the blokes I've mentioned, has in fact reached a fairly senior level within the AFP, probably because of his outstanding linguistic abilities with certain dialects and specific cultural knowledge of that part of the world.

Generally though, there are many more, who's only objective is to assist their more militant, more manic Imams, in discreetly establishing new Islamic conclaves, all for the express purpose of instituting larger tracts of Islamic dominion. Thereby creating a stronger Muslim ascendancy, over larger more secular areas of those nations that hitherto were considered merely profane and temporal. Not dissimilar to that, of the earlier days of the Sydney suburb of Bankstown and it's environs.

All this has been accomplished for the indisputable purpose of firmly extending the influence of Islam, throughout the entire, morally soiled, Western world. Following which, there will be an inauguration of full sharia law, that would prevail for all time.

With respect FOXY it's here now, in our city of Sydney ? Unfortunately the evidence is irrefutable.

1) For me the term Multiculturalism encompasses the wide range of cultures that make up our current Australian society... Greeks, Italians, English, Scottish, and other post war immigrants as well as those coming from the Middle-East. I don't think it is appropriate to be blaming Multiculturalism for the more recent problems emanating out of the Muslim faith.

2) Be clear, I am all for stopping all future immigration from anyone who declares Islam or Muslim is their religion. We have enough, if not too many already here.

3) I am gobsmacked that no one has questioned the sense in Jay-of-Mebourne's outrages comments: "See I repudiate the belief in a "Holocaust" precisely because it's a belief, an article of faith and as an atheist I cannot accept beliefs at all. Similarly I express an admiration for National Socialism because it stripped away the belief systems of the old world and challenged the German people to look toward the new."

So let me get this right, if someone believes an event happened they are automatically wrong because believing is an 'article of faith' and therefore religious and thus has to be untrue. That's a form crazy logic that I previously would have only credited as possible in Arabia.

Great post, o sung wu.

It is sometimes a revelation to visit Bankstown, especially the shopping malls.
My wife and I were there recently and as I understand a fair bit of Urdu and my wife is fluent in Arabic and Urdu we heard a few illuminating remarks about obvious European Australians; we also heard a few about us, some in accented English, which we allowed to pass over our heads as we were speaking French.

I apologise for inadvertently not including the Chinese, Indian and other vibrant Asian cultures that are also positively contributing to our multicultural society.

On the subject of Rotherham, I was shocked to read a whole news report on the ABC website which refused at any point to mention that the victims were in most cases I believe white, and that the perpetrators were in nearly every case Pakistani. I find this a most shocking example of racism against ordinary white people. It is nothing more than an attempt by the ABC to mislead people.
The ABC has had no problems over the last few weeks headlining the trouble in the US where " a black man was shot by a white police officer"

Conservative Hippie,
What else would you call acceptance of an unsubstantiated narrative but a belief?
The statement "I believe in the Holocaust" is a an expression of faith and can't be challenged.
The statement "I know the Holocaust to be the truth" can be challenged and easily argued against, that's why it's illegal in most European countries to challenge the official version of events.
You won't go to jail in Germany for saying "I don't believe in the Holocaust" but if you say "The Holocaust is a lie" or "It's my contention that less than two million Jews were murdered by the Nazis' then the sentence is five years, no defence arguments are allowed, you can't submit any evidence to the court to back your claim, you must either remain silent of throw yourself upon the mercy of the court.
The Holocaust faith is the protective shield around multiculturalism, if you don't agree with multiculturalism you can't support the idea of a Holocaust.
I'm well informed as to the nature of Hitler's regime and the activities of his secret police and the SS, it's beyond doubt that they murdered large numbers of Jews simply because they were of no use to the Reich labour system or were acting against the government but there's no evidence of a Holocaust as it's presented in fictional Hollywood films and trashy novels.
So to sum up multiculturalism is based on a core of lies about "equality" and "social justice" and the mantle around that core is the Holocaust faith, if I wish to get at the core I have to break through the mantle. Simples

I raised the same question, possibly on the wrong post :) The reports alleging complaints to authorities made by an eleven year old girl,of being attacked and sexually molested. On two separate occasions I believe. They were disregarded as was she, despite her father confirming what had happened and by whom.
The same young girl was found in a room with four Pakistan men, clearly being sexually assaulted. The officer simply accused her of being drunk and disorderly, at fault and arrested her.
Over a thousand other cases of child abuse had been reported over the years yet not pursued. Perpetrators yet again escaping quite easily from prosecution and identification of race and sect.
Maybe the generated fear of the evil capabilities of these lawless mongrels and the fear of possible repercussions from being identified.

He describes Australia as a successful
multicultural society.
Foxy,
That was years ago, a lot of aspects of our society were better then.
Have a look at this link which is now up for the third time but no response yet here.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204326980673843&set=vb.1209145283&type=2&theater

individual

great link but even having a black woman speak won't even change the progressives pig headedness. You see multi culturalism triumps over any rationale. She was brilliant. How else would the progressives be able to eat halal kebabs. Thats more important than than stopping our young girls from being raped or terrorist plotting to blow up our stadiums.

Good evening to you IS MISE...

I've not been out to Bankstown for awhile now, more like 12 months or so. Though I've seen how much this once well respected working class suburb has altered, with a mass of Arabic signage, one tends to feel the place has had a massive transformation from within ? Even materialising from some Middle Eastern region, to a point that it's almost unrecognisable.

There're other indications of change too, where seeing the average Anglo Saxon Aussie is now the exception rather than the rule. The local shop-keepers are (always) quite cordial, even helpful, but it's the atmosphere one experiences when strolling about the retail and business precincts, and of course the Mall itself.

The streets and lanes are recognisable, but not the peripheral sounds or odours - like the cacophonous strains of foreign, unrecognisable music and the many languages and dialects spoken, coming from the numerous Lebanese and other middle eastern businesses.

Is this particular environment any more menacing or intimidating then say Sydney's China Town, in Dixon Street ? How about that symbol of fine Italian dining, Lygon Street, Melbourne ? Is that a place of ominousness and fear ? Maybe the mafia do still control that small quarter of Melbourne ?

None of these examples are comparable to the folk of Bankstown. Because the latter is symbolic of an emerging group of people with a lifestyle and a culture, that's diametrically antagonistic and averse to ours, in our own country ! Moreover, their Imam's teach, the tenets and credo of their religion, strictly prohibits any association or assimilation with anyone, other than those faithful who are strict adherents of the Islam faith itself.

IS MISE, it must be very beneficial indeed, that both your wife and yourself possess these linguistic skills. Certainly no load to carry, and I envy you both because of it ! Interestingly, many Arabs a quite fluent in the French. Maybe because of all the French colonialism, in the early 19th and 20th century ?

The sex trafficking of white girls by Pakistani men in the UK hasn't only happened in Rotherham, but has also occurred in another part of England, Rochdale, Greater Manchester.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rochdale_sex_trafficking_gang#Child_protection_organisations

I don't believe this ever made it in the Australian media.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/rotherham-child-abuse-scandal-a-nation-in-disgrace-20140829-109u9m.html
"Even the journalist who first exposed the scandal avoided it at first. When The Times reporter Andrew Norfolk moved to Leeds in 2003, one of the first stories he covered involved young teenage girls targeted by "Asian men".

"I didn't want the story to be true because it made me deeply uncomfortable," he wrote this week.

However "I could not escape a nagging feeling that I hadn't done my job properly. I'd looked the other way rather than sought to establish the truth."

His conscience was regularly prodded by "strikingly similar" stories from towns and cities across northern England and the Midlands.

"It was always more than one man in the dock. And it was hard not to notice that … the convicted men in each case had something else in common. They invariably had Muslim names."

Oh, he felt uncomfortable! I'm disgusted that people will sacrifice truth and the safety of the vulnerable for the sake of obeying the orders of political correctness. Weak conformity has played out big time in this whole scenario and other areas.

Years ago I was reading about the high rate of honour killings occurring in the UK which go unreported, as officials tip toe around it and turn a blind eye because it is deemed too culturally sensitive. Same thing.

Poor women.

What a terribly sad situation when these poor people, who ordinarily would not hesitate to respond to the multitude of allegations of sexual abuse and assaults on their young girls, are at this point faced with a 'morally incorrect' dilemma. 'Political correctness' once a handy phrase, but due to drastic societal changes has now become a weapon to protect the perpetrators, leaving moral justice a very dangerous option.

Riots in Sweden stemming from the integration issues with 200 right wing extremists, arriving on generous asylum policies. Increasing their population to 15%.
Fire fighters attending to 70 fires, cars, buildings, a school and a police station. The muslims were seen driving their cars around the area, possibly deterred by the large police presence.
$800 Muslims in Holland and reportedly over 1000 illegals in the Netherlands, evading the local authorities for visa checks.
I do not know the reason why this large number of muslims have been dispersed into foreign societies, where many previous attempts of a civil integration have ended tragically. And in particular the very questionable decision to introduce 200 muselim left wing extremists into a society again of white, mostly Christians. I hope their is a positive outcome as opposed to previous heart breaking, tragic ones.

Jodelle
To go back to my original point, the problem isn't Islam it's that the bureaucracy in Western countries is stacked with old ladies,cowards, imbeciles and people whose ideology or beliefs are every bit as corrosive to good social order as the wingnut end of Islam.
We can live in a multicultural society but we can't have freedom and democracy at the same time, a multicultural society can be stable up to a point but that only comes from massive top down state management, secret Police, ruthless suppression of dissidents and so forth.
The fact is that Australia has always been multicultural and until the 1970's always had the mix of political policing measures and para state enforcers in place to maintain harmony.
With regard to Islam specifically what will happen is that the state will covertly back both dissident Muslim Liberals and aggrieved non Muslim immigrants and some form of thuggish street group who will take on the hardline Sunni types with the fist, the boot and the firebomb. There are going to be a lot of very bitter young Shia,Copts, Chaldeans and now it seems Yazidis emigrating here in coming years and they'll no doubt be recruited to the task of keeping down the Sunni radicals.
Multiculturalism can be stable and relatively harmonious if you have a strong government with a tiered system of state and para state security operations, an absolute intolerance of dissent and a system which supports and rewards factionalism among ethnic minorities.

"Multiculturalism can be stable and relatively harmonious if you have a strong government with a tiered system of state and para state security operations, an absolute intolerance of dissent and a system which supports and rewards factionalism among ethnic minorities."

A government along the lines of the National Socialist in 1939 Germany perhaps?

A government along the lines of the National Socialist in 1939 Germany perhaps?
ConservativeHippie,
You'd be surprised how many people nod their head in agreement when I say what Australia needs is a small Hitler ,about a foot tall.

I love the irony, ConservativeHippie.

>>A government along the lines of the National Socialist in 1939 Germany perhaps?<<

A government less disposed to multiculturalism would be hard to identify, would it not.

But pointing the finger at "multiculturalism" is to miss the point. No race or religion has a monopoly on sin, and to blame the religion itself for systematic sexual exploitation of children is simplistic, and wrong.

Those who advocate "sending them back" or "not letting them in" should ask themselves why they do not knee-jerk demand the same treatment for all Roman Catholics. Not just the priests involved, but every Catholic in the land.

Because a case can easily be made for moral parallels.

It would appear that the Rotherham victims were predominantly from the same ethnic Pakistani background. It would appear that the practice flourished because no-one was prepared to point the finger - indeed, there was a reluctance based on the status of the perpetrators within society.

Sounds familiar?

As runner pointed out earlier in this thread,

>>We have seen the moral outrage against the Catholic church for their repulsive behavior...<<

Yet I don't recall anyone suggesting that the cure for such a systemic moral black hole is to blame not only the individual criminals, not just the management hierarchy who covered up for them, but the Roman Catholic religion and everyone who practised it.

There have been societies in history who have attempted to eradicate Catholicism - Henry VIII had a go for a while, as we know.

Even Australia was not exempt from the tendency. Early Catholic settlers were made to attend Protestant services, in the hope they would "reform"...

"The penalties for refusal, provided at various times in General Orders, consisted in reduced rations, imprisonment, confinement in prison-hulks, the stocks, and the urgent pressure of the public flagellator's "can-o'-nine-tails"—twenty-five lashes for the first offence, fifty for the second, and for the third, the road-gangs, or transportation to the "living death" of the convict hells."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02113b.htm

And we all know how well that worked.

Eventually, we all learned to live together.

‘morning indi,

<< what Australia needs is a small Hitler ,about a foot tall.>>

I think the answer to this one is, He would make a good “ruler”?

My banana please.

Posted by individual - You'd be surprised how many people nod their head in agreement when I say what Australia needs is a small Hitler ,about a foot tall.

LOL

How tall is Jay of Melbourne? He's probably already conceived an appropriate socio-cultural pecking order as well as what role women should have in a perfect world.

The big difference between Catholicism is that the founder of that faith preached love whereas the founder of Islam preached hate.

There is no similarity and no common meeting ground.

One is good and the other is evil.

‘morning Steelie and Suse,

This is a vexatious and divisive issue. It has been made more so by those who “explain” to the rest of us through intellectualized political correctness, just how wrong the rest of us are.

Since it is already a divisive issue I guess I can’t make things much worse.

The progressive infestation of western society has resulted in acceptance of policies that are harmful to us all in the longer term. The majority went along with it because the political elites driving such policies seemed “plausible” at the time.

As the fruits of such policies inflict themselves upon us and we begin to recognize how utterly wrong we have been, the progressives and their fellow travelers offer us mitigation of these policies that have delivered the seemingly endless tragedies being inflicted upon our societies today.

We know the progressives are feeling the pain of what they have caused, that’s why they still try to excuse the inexcusable.

Any more of that intellectual rhetoric left in the bottom of the barrel?

There, I feel a little better now

Whichever way one chooses to look at the situation we all have to agree that we always try to make decisions that are good for all. Unfortunately many who have the audacity to call themselves Australian are the most self-centred, selfish greed mongers i.e. the Labor & other Left supporters.
Many would sell their mother if they could well, at least from my experience with those who I deal with daily.
I can't see anything wrong with wanting the best available for yourself & those who share your life.
Where the split comes is when those who don't share our values barge in & force change upon their hosts. To make matters even worse, the greed mongers i.e. Lefties, cuddle up to the newcomers in order to procure more Left voting support at the expense of those who buit this Nation. That's why we desperately need a non-military National Service to counter this dreadful trend & bring back some normalcy & common sense.
Multiculturalism does work but not for us who helped build this Nation. It is totally & utterly one of the traitorous Left's failed ideaology that is costing us all extremely dearly.
All I can say to them is "WAKE UP MORONS !

Any more of that intellectual rhetoric left in the bottom of the barrel?
spindoc,
The term Intellectual is the definition of oxymoron.

Conservative Hippie,
No that wouldn't work because we're not Germans and this isn't 1939, Hitler's agenda wasn't harmony it was supremacy.
Most Germans had no dealings with the Gestapo unless it was for a security clearance or some such, most Australians will never have any dealings with ASIO or the Federal Police but they're still out there and their legal powers are pretty much equivalent to those the Gestapo or indeed MI5 and the FBI held during that era.
The Socialist terror carried out by Stalin and Hitler was a gimmick, like the "War On Terror" or the "War On Drugs" and so were their attacks on class and race, I'm not talking about anything like that.
I, like the majority of people don't want to live in a multicultural society but the fact is that I do, since there's no possibility of voting our way out of this mess we're in we need to put pressure on the government to maintain order and deal with troublemakers, in order to do that they need to weed out the SJW's and other numbskulls from the public service.

So any ideas on how we begin to stop multiculturalism?

The trouble with Christianity is that so many members do not follow the founder's teachings, the trouble with Islam is that so many members do follow their founder's teachings.

Ozzie,Who are the people who need to be retired from public life in your area, I nominate Chief Commissioner Ken Lay of Victoria Police first up.
See above, start weeding out the "progressives" from the public service and especially the Police, demand that politicians stick to their principles and not cave in to Twitter protests or Facebook mobs.
Get rid of HREOC and the other human rights parasites, disbar the SJW lawyers and start rigidly enforcing the anti discrimination laws, to the letter.
See we can use tools like 18c and so forth as well,all the systems are in place, the political and managerial class is mostly competent we just need bloc movements and political action committees to pressure politicians or deny them votes if they don't stand up for us.
The interests of the White ethnic majority intersect in most cases with those of the other ethnic groups so it won't be hard to get them on board and the Commies, the Bleeding heart Methodists and the secular SJW's can nick off back to PC paradise in England and take one of their Jihadi mates under each arm.
All of this crap began in England so to Foxy and Steele and Susie we say "GO BACK TO WHERE YOU CAME FROM!"

Dear Jay,

I was born here. My ancestry is Lithuanian, Russian,
Scottish, German, and a few other mixtures. Where exactly
do you suggest I go back to? It's a very wide choice
you see. Although I would prefer to stay here as I
consider myself an Australian.

So any ideas on how we begin to stop multiculturalism?
ozzie,
By making the decision at any election from now on, Councils included, not to appoint anyone with a degree to a desision making position.

Where exactly do you suggest I go back to?
Foxy,
You're not being asked by anyone to go back to anywhere. What quite a number of OLO'ers are asking you to do is to stop promoting this country's demise. Multiculturalism does not work, it only aids those who only have one goal & that is to domineer over us & take what we with the hard work & supreme sacrifices of our forerunners have built for a common future.
I abhore people who are so hypocritical in their ideaology so as to destroy everything for not even knowing why. Contrary to your futile hope of being somehow singled out for special consideration, if gaining the control those who you're sucking up to will discard you like cigarette butt.

For those of you who don't seem to know what multiculturalism is; it's the existence, recognition, or preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society.

Multicultural societies are vibrant and in most aspects benefit from having a wide range of cultural practices, art, ideas, and genetic stock.

The statement by individual which has been reflected in several other's comments is a very narrow minded viewpoint "Multiculturalism does not work, it only aids those who only have one goal & that is to domineer over us & take what we with the hard work & supreme sacrifices of our forerunners have built for a common future."

This statement ignores that many of our forerunners came from cultures other than white Anglo-Saxon Britain and contributed equally in the hard work it's taken building our Nation. None of the many cultural groups within our society are planning to eventually dominate except perhaps the Muslims. We don't need to worry about the Chinese, the Italians, Greeks, Vietnamese, Indians, South Africans, etc.

I fully agree there is a dangerous problem brewing that primarily relates to those of the Muslim faith but Muslims are just one element of our multifaceted multicultural society.

As mentioned previous, to the blind and deaf on OLO, when you talk about Australia being 'multicultural' you are describing our modern society which includes ethnic people from all over the world who have been here for many generations and are making Australia the wonderful country it is. Multiculturalism is not limited to all Australians other than the Muslims.

Ozzie, the way to do it is to take a leaf out of Clive Parlmers book
as well as the Motorists Party and nominate first for the senate a group
that is not afraid to state its aims.
Getting the swing vote in the Senate would help no end.
If the group, called what ummm, Unity Party for example, had any
significant support by the following election an attempt on the Reps
should be possible. Any ratbags that got in the first time could be
removed at the end of their term.

Policies ?
Well, how about an interum cessation of immigration.
A law that prohibits moslem immigration.
Alternatively to swear an oath of allegiance that if found guilty of
sedition will result in cancellation of citizenship and deportation.
All those presently here to reswear to the new oath.
The children of immigrants that swore the oath to be subject to the
cancellation & deportation.

After all the High Court and law rewrites then consideration of the
population size could be assessed and immigration restarted but not
a free for all. Lets pick and choose next time and get it right.

That will do for starters.
The trendies will have a stroke when they read that, so they won't
be a problem.

This statement ignores that many of our forerunners came from cultures other than white Anglo-Saxon Britain and contributed equally in the hard work it's taken building our Nation.
ConservativeHippie,
Isn't that exactly what I acknowleged in my post ?? I'm not talking about them ? I'm talking about those who are now gaining sufficient numbers to influence elections & aid their agenda.
They're not in any way related to those whom we both acknowlege as having been instrumental in the building of this Nation.

For those of you who don't seem to know what multiculturalism is; it's the existence, recognition, or preservation of different cultures or cultural identities within a unified society.
ConservativeHippie,
That's the theory, what about the reality ?

'Morning Ozzie,

You ask how we might begin to stop multiculturalism? Simple, remove the support base it enjoys!

That support base is primarily the PC progressive policies that permitted multiculturalism in the first place.

So here is my plan.

Australia was founded by the British shipping bent lawyers, crims, defrocked clergy, seditious academics and radical politicians on the First Fleet.

We round up elitist left wing politicians, humanities academics, human rights lawyers, trade union officials, ABC, SBS, Fairfax and The Guardian editors, bikies and clear out our prisons. Load them into containers, the preferred mode of UK immigration and ship them all back to mother England with our compliments.

We could add a note to the effect that we appreciate their assistance in founding Australia and that we now have a surplus of resources they sent us to found our great nation and hope that returning the compliment will assist in putting the word " Great" back into Britain. We could also let them know that we are following the lead of the Netherlands and are likewise abandoning multiculturalism.

Then we close the Mosques and Islamic schools, put them off the dole and onto work for the dole at a "Small Goods" factory, offer a ten dollar repatriation fee and ban the burqa.

For those who choose Australian culture we welcome them, the rest can make their own arrangements.

How's that for a start?

'morning Foxy,

You may have varied ancestry and prefer to live in Australia and consider yourself Australian. But that isn't the point is it ?

Most of us have varied ancestry and by choice wish to be Australians. What we are debating is those who have varied ancestry, who chose to live in Australia yet refuse to be Australians.

By supporting such cultures you are actually separating yourself from those who wish to be Australians. You mitigate their needs and trivialise ours. You assign their values above those of Australians. You tell other Australians that their value system is racially incorrect and you align yourself with the values of those who destroy rather than create.

Your problem is that you are left defending the consequences of progressive policies because the alternative is to accept that such policies have been the cause of so much social conflict.

I don't envy your predicament however, this is a mess you have made for yourself. You cannot accept the problems caused by the Islamic cult because to do so would direct us to the progressive causes of the problem. You are between a rock and a hard place. Tough, you made your bed, now lay on it!

I'm sure you will find some intellectualised rhetoric to suit your circumstances but in the end you are faced with the prospect of being a counter cultural advocate of all things Australian.

The world is changing, it is becoming more aware, isolating progressive ideology and you are currently on the wrong side of it.

Sleep tight, sweet dreams and wake up to a strong sense of culpability.

There goes Pericles again, grasping at straws with cultural relativism.

Sorry Foxy,

I forgot to reference my previous post relating to shipping counter Australian cultural activists back to the UK.

You might have nowhere to go, you might resist what it is to be Australian and you might support those who likewise wish to change Australian culture. In which case you should also be put in a container and be shipped to the UK. I don't really care where you are sent as long as it is outside our territorial borders.

I love Australia, I am truly an Australian, I share all the untainted values of Australians and I do not share the values of those who wish to force change upon us. Call me a social Luddite if you wish, tell me I'm a racist and explain just how I lack intellectual capacity because I see you as seditious. In the end I would be happy to see you deported for being un-Australian. Have a nice trip.

That's a really profound contribution, Constance.

>>There goes Pericles again, grasping at straws with cultural relativism<<

And quite revealing, too.

The implication is that you prefer not to learn from history, but wish to keep making the same mistakes all over again.

Britain was torn apart by two warring versions of Christianity for over a century. People were hanged without a second thought, simply because they were a) Protestant or b) Catholic.

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/log/summary/v007/7.1tarrago.html

Islam appears to be in the throes of the same disease. And once again, innocent citizens are targetted simply because they are either Sunni or Shia.

We in Australia in the twentyfirst century are in fact a great deal more fortunate than the folk of Tudor England, simply because we have a strong legal framework within which we pursue criminals, without checking first which church they go to.

What the vociferous white folks on this thread are advocating is nothing less than the reawakening of religious wars, which in the more politically advanced parts of the world is slowly being eradicated. It still exists of course - even Northern Ireland is not completely cured.

But the key point I was trying to get across is that the difference between being deported for being Muslim, and being kneecapped for being Protestant, is almost non-existent. If we haven't learnt that little lesson from history, then we are in for a very hard time indeed.

Dear o sung wu,

You as always give an interesting perspective, one I contend is baseless but I am happy to pursue it and for the sake of the exercise let's couch it in legal terms.

Your case is that I employed “insulting, offensive, and disparaging language, in order to offend BANJO and others herein, simply because they dare disagree with your somewhat perverted and prejudiced views, is quite deplorable, thus rendering you as an arrogant and imperious individual!”

So what did I actually say about Banjo that could be regarded as “insulting, offensive, and disparaging language”?

Well there was this;

“Oh dear, not another Banjo drum beat. Muslims and sex, sex and Muslims, immigrants and sex, sex and immigrants, sex and multiculturalism, multiculturalism and sex. Hell mate do you have any other tune in that playbook?”

Was it a reasonable assertion? Let us look at the evidence. I submit the following list of Banjo's posted topics over the last 12 months, there were 10 of them and I include a few quotes from him;

Rotherham reveals the price we pay for multiculturalism 28/8/2014 “After 20 years of FGM being illegal not one person has yet faced court, because prosecutors have turned a blind eye for 'cultural considerations'.”

What to do about Aus citizens going to fight in syria? 13/1/2014 “Secondly we need to disallow immigrants from groups that have shown us they cannot/will not integrate and hold our laws and social standards in contempt.”

FECCA wants more alien cultural diversity 12/12/2013 “This is why I am keen to see the laws enforced relating to FGM, forced marriages and polygamy.”

Well done Mr Morrison 16/5/2014 “Having read some of Morrison's views on multiculturalism, I am rather hopeful that MC will be officially discarded this term.”

Woman charged with supporting terrorism 5/5/2014

Qld election should see PUP crash 9/6/2014

How accomodating will Aussies have to becom? 9/4/2014 “So how diverse will we get and what cultural practices will we have to accept? Will FGM, underage marriage, forced marriage and polygamy become lawful activities?”

Cont...

Dear spindoc,

Kindly read my post on page 8 of this discussion.

You should not attribute things to me that I neither
believe, nor have said. That is not a reasoned or
intelligent way to argue. I have always stated that
the reason Australia does not have the problems of
the UK or Europe is that we have an institutional
framework that preserves tolerance and protects order
we can celebrate and enjoy diversity in food, in music,
in theatre, in language, and culture. But we could not
do that without the legal framework which guarantees the
freedom to enjoy our diversity.

To be an Australian, one pledges loyalty to Australia.
One pledges to share democratic beliefs to respect the
rights and liberty of others and to respect the rule of
law.

There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is
the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian
Constitution. If you can't accept that then you don't
accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what
it stands for.

We are asking all of our citizens to subscribe to a framework
that can protect the rights and liberties of all. We are very
clear about this. This is not optional.

Terrorists, extremists, fundamentalists, who do not acknowledge
rights and liberties of others need to be made aware that
they know that there is only one law and that it is going
to be enforced whether they acknowledge its legitimacy or
not.

However, as David Irvine, Head of ASIO, has stated - it would
be wrong and unfair -
to blame all Muslims for the actions of Islamists,
who mis-sue their religion for their own agendas.

Cont...

Do we follow UK down the Islamic path? 19/2/2014 “Those that considered there was nothing wrong with the underage marriage of recent times.”

Underage marriage and other alien practices. 8/2/2014 “Below is an article about a man charged with intercourse with an underage girl.”

PM not wanting to discuss issue 30/10/2013 “I also think that those groups that practice forced marriage and FGM should be excluded.”

So a full 90% are directly concerned with Muslim/immigration/terrorism/multiculturalism. The vast majority mention either underaged sex, child brides FGM, forced marriages.

Next I accused Banjo of being xenophobic a condition described as an irrational fear of a foreign group. I put it to you that Banjo is most definitely exhibiting an unhealthy preoccupation with those of the Muslim faith. His embraces instances that occur on the otherside of the globe as having impacted him personally. Note the language of his thread;

“Rotherham reveals the price we pay for multiculturalism”. We are not England, we are Australia. Banjo can not make that distinction. It is irrational behaviour. So even setting aside his predisposition to label all Muslims with the brush of the few I submit Banjo is a classic xenophobe.

So for the record my statements about Banjo hardly gratuitous but rather right on the mark. What I do find curious though is your inclination toward defensiveness, of seeing grave slight when little exists. I don't think you consciously concoct feelings of affront but subconsciously you tend to do just that.

Take for instance this statement from you;

“Then your argument is similarly lamentable, as it has absolutely no basis in fact either ? And your use of the adjective 'demographic' to preface 'lamentable' puzzles me somewhat?”

I was making the point that decrying multiculturalism is a more typical lament from your demographic as in 'white, male, and on the less inviting side of middle age'. You turned 'lament' into 'lamentable' and took offense.

Why?

And why isn't “perverted and prejudiced views” and “arrogant and imperious” from you ““insulting, offensive, and disparaging language”?

Davis Aurini explains why Social Justice is the antithesis of real justice in the most simplistic way possible.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOp1GOL3skU
I can already tell who's going to benefit from watching this video and who won't even be able to understand it.

The full statement by Australian Muslims…

http://islaminaustralia.com/2014/08/20/muslim-community-denounces-anti-terror-law-proposals/

Notice the preamble, the reference to Allah, the merciful god that delights in torture
http://quran.com/4/56 Strange type of mercy, that.

Comments:
Item1: language of the law is neutral; Muslims are not mentioned, but feel targeted. Funny that Anglicans, Baptists, Atheists, Buddhists don’t feel targeted. No statement from Jehovah witnesses either.

Item2. So Muslims are a race? Oh yes, a caricature is a picture or description in which certain striking characteristics are exaggerated. To caricature Muslims as backwards, prone to violence and problematic means such characterizations have a basis in reality, even if not really exaggerated.

Item3. To Muslims, any Islamic threat is first “blown out of all proportion” then just blown up. As to “national debate” and “community consultation”, oh yes, Muslims are known for their democratic institutions and peaceful dialog. HA!

Item4. They reject dividing the Muslim community into ‘radicals’ and ‘moderates’. There you have it – the radicals that behead and shoot people in the back are no different from the average Australian Muslim, according to the statement. Do Muslims ever think about what they write?

Item5. Muslims say that they concerned about peace and security. So what about the 50+ countries where Muslims dominate? How about the rights, peace and security for non-Muslim or even Muslims in those countries? Words like tolerance peace and security have no meaning when coming from the mouths of people that oppresses, discriminates and does violence everywhere they dominate.

The fact is that Australian Muslims reject a common position on terror with the rest of the people of the country. This makes sense because if they were against terror, they wouldn’t worship Mohammed, duhhhh.

It is nice to know that Muslims accept what I have always said, that so-called radicals and so-called Muslims are pretty much the same in theory – they both accept the hate and violence in the Quran and they both have no problem with Mohammed’s vicious attacks on his neighbors for 10 years. The only difference is that the radicals practice their beliefs while the moderates make excuses and blame others.

‘morning Foxy,

I’ve read all three of your posts on this thread, so what did I “attribute” to you that you did not say?

You posts are sickly sweet, unadulterated PC and intellectualized rhetoric.

So we don’t have problems because we << we have an institutional framework that preserves tolerance and protects order we can celebrate and enjoy diversity in food, in music, in theatre, in language, and culture. But we could not do that without the legal framework which guarantees the freedom to enjoy our diversity.>> Yuk!

I suppose Muslims enjoy all these attributes of our “culture” do they? Hogwash! They despise all of it.

<< To be an Australian, one pledges loyalty to Australia. One pledges to share democratic beliefs to respect the rights and liberty of others and to respect the rule of law.>>

Really? So pledging to Allah first, wanting Sharia law, combining religion and State and vilifying infidels is consistent with that is it?

Bleating on about me accepting the fundamentals of our constitution has nothing to do with anything, just PC rhetoric. It is however vital to those who refuse to abide by our laws and constitution.

Nobody is seeking to blame all Muslims for the medieval slaughter being conducted in their name, but they ARE the enabling environment, which includes progressives like you.

“The problem is that PC in principle and by intention destroys culture simply as such. On the face of it that may not be obvious, since PC claims to like culture so much that it insists on equal standing for all cultures. That principle is supposed to allow a thousand flowers to bloom. Instead, it kills them all.”
James Kalb

it would
be wrong and unfair -
to blame all Muslims for the actions of Islamists,
Foxy,
Bad things happen when good people do nothing. Thus far I haven't seen anything you wrote that could be interpret as standing up to that dreadful influx that is an unintended consequence to wrongly so-called multiculturalism. .

Dear spindoc,

You can twist it whichever way you like.

However as far as I can see if "political
correctness" are the first words that come out
of your mouth when the views of others don't
agree with yours - chances are very likely that
you are indeed part of the problem.

Read your own posts before you criticise others.
Your posts are full of sweeping statements and
generalisations and you are definitely arguing
on an emotional level, not a mature intelligent one.
We don't blame the Catholic or Anglican religions for
child sexual abuse. Blaming any religion for the
actions of some of its practitioners is not a logical
way to argue.

However, I can see that you're on a roll and nothing
I will say will deter you from your rhetoric.
If that makes you happy or gives you some sort of
warm and fuzzy feeling - who am I to question it.

cont'd ...

Dear Spindoc,

Experts tell us that -

Terrorism is a complex
phenomenon. Its a specific kind of political
violence. There are certain conditions - social
and political injustice and people choose terrorism
when they are trying to right what they perceive to
be a social, political, or historical wrong. When they
are stripped of their land or rights or
they believe that violence or its threat will be
effective and usher in change.

Zionists who bombed British targets in 1930s felt they
must do so in order to create a Jewish state. In the 1960s
and 1970s the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine
felt that armed attacks in Israel were a justifiable
response to the usurption of their land.

The IRA bombed English targets in the 1980s - to make
the point that they felt their land was colonized by
British Imperialists.

Osama bin Laden's declaration of war on American interests in
the 1990s stemmed from his belief that US troops stationed in
Saudi Arabia represented an abomination to the kind of
Islamic State he believed should exist in the Arabian
Peninsula.

So it goes.

Dear Individual,

We are not "doing nothing."
Our government has passed laws for
our protection. And anyone who breaks these
laws shall be punished accordingly.
Which is as it should be.

Foxy,

When you quote, for instance from Peter Costello, you deliberately cherry pick, sometimes pasting bits together to imply a meaning that is identical to yours. However, when the original speech or article is read in its entirety, it is plain that what the author was saying is in fact opposed to your world view.

Do you honestly believe for example that Peter Costello agrees with you? Here is just a bit that you didn't quote and one could ask, as I am asking now, why not?

" There is one law we are all expected to abide by. It is the law enacted by the Parliament under the Australian Constitution. If you can't accept that then you don't accept the fundamentals of what Australia is and what it stands for.

Our State is a secular State. As such it can protect the freedom of all religions for worship. Religion instructs its adherents on faith, morals and conscience. But there is not a separate stream of law derived from religious sources that competes with or supplants Australian law in governing our civil society. The source of our law is the democratically elected legislature.

There are countries that apply religious or sharia law Saudi Arabia and Iran come to mind. If a person wants to live under sharia law these are countries where they might feel at ease. But not Australia.

And the citizenship pledge should be a big flashing warning sign to those who want to live under sharia law. A person who does not acknowledge the supremacy of civil law laid down by democratic processes cannot truthfully take the pledge of allegiance. As such they do not meet the pre-condition for citizenship.

Before entering a mosque visitors are asked to take off their shoes. This is a sign of respect. If you have a strong objection to walking in your socks don't enter the mosque. Before becoming an Australian you will be asked to subscribe to certain values. If you have strong objections to those values don't come to Australia."

http://tinyurl.com/costello-quote

otb,

How strange.
Lucky me to be your target, once again.
However, as always you've got it so wring.

I actually have given the quotes that you've
just accused me of not giving - on the "Moderate
Muslim" discussion. I totally agreed with
Peter Costello 100 per cent, and I've said
so. I think that the meaning
is crystal clear from my posts.

But whatever rocks your boat as well - just like
Spindoc - keep at it, I'm sure you'll get it
right eventually. Just not this time. (sigh).

'morning Foxy,

Your intellectualised apologetics for the slaughter of innocents is truly abhorrent. Like I said earlier, you have to appease because the policies you support are causal. What is happening is the consequence. Just like Sarah Two Dads, accidents happen. Ew!

I've got news for you, accidents don't happen they are caused. You gush mitigation to avoid the consequences of your political perspectives.

I don't know how you sleep at night but as you so eloquently say, "you like to consider yourself to be Australian". Oops, you are either Australian or you are not.

Dear spindoc,

Personal contentment and fullfilment comes
from within as a result of your personal
life, your own aspirations and dreams.
I sleep quite well at night but Thank You for
asking and being so concerned. Coming from someone
who wanted to send me to the UK in a crate (as you
stated in one earlier "charming" post) and told me to
"have a nice trip," I find your sudden concern about
my sleeping habits rather surprising to say the least.
Also looking at your posting record - you are in no
position to speak on "abhorence." You are so full of
hate - that it makes one cringe - and no you are
not an Australian Sir. You are the antithesis of
everything this country stands for. The best that can
be said for you is that I overestimated both your
intelligence and decency. You are not beneath my
contempt.

'morning Foxy,

Yes, blah blah blah. When are you going to address the content rather than the emotion?

Your state of victimhood is assured. Why is it that progressives always slide down the side of the main issues? You won't go there because you can't. You are invited to discuss content, go for it.

Foxy,
I & many I know are doing our bit to counter this dreadful threat, my question was what are YOU doing apart from apologising for Labor's back door stuff-ups & the handful of people belonging to a religious group that does want us down the drain ?
You are constantly criticising Abbott's Govt yet know you say "We" ?
You really are hypocrisy's most ardent exerciser. I'm not sure this is actually an english word but the gist should be clear nevertheless.

one brave black woman pointed out that not all Germans were nazis however millions of Jews were slaughtered, not all Russians were extremist however millions of Christians were murdered under Stalin, not all Catholics were fanatics and yet thousands of protestants were slain by the Catholic church, in the same way not all Muslims take the Koran seriously yet their are still millions who are Jew haters, many that pack rape woman, millions that believe infidels like athiest and others should convert or die. The progressives hate the fact that facts don't back up their narrative. They ignore mass rape by muslims, the total defiance of any western law and the obvious agenda they have. They can only ever point to the Germans who were not Nazis or the Marxist who were moderate. Of course though all the ' Catholics' were evil. Progressives have shown once again that they are not interested in fact only their own narrative.

spindoc,

You can say whatever bigoted, extreme shyte you like -
but don't complain if other people condemn your
viewpoint or refuse to associate with you.

Cheers.

Runner,
I'd recommend your watching that Davis Aurini video I posted earlier, it explains "progressives", they're basically Christians who don't believe in god.
The example he gives is the difference between the concepts of earthly and divine justice, the laws of men might not always make sense but they're consistent, you can expect a certain response to your actions, behave and be left alone, misbehave and be hit with a stick.
God's justice is different, consider a weak and puny man and a strong and mighty man, in his wrath the strong man might raze a village to satisfy his honour, the anger of the puny man would probably be laughed at and he'd be left to stew while a bounty would be placed on the head of the stronger offender.
Predictable, earthly law in action.
God however might weigh the souls of the two men and judge them both to be sinners because of their wrath, wrath is the offense even though one man committed a felony and the other was merely mocked by his peers and did nothing but fume.
It's this weighing of souls, this divine judgment transposed to the earthly society which the "progressives" suppose to abide by, their "social justice" is in conflict with the laws of men.
What we have is the "Social Justice Warrior" who is not bound by the laws of the land, who presumes to weigh the souls of men and judge them, in practice this means that the SJW appears irrational and out of control.
Their judgements are as unpredictable as that of God, one man might be spared another destroyed, a craven man exalted, a righteous man condemned while those of us who abide by earthly laws can only look on and wonder where the lightning is going to strike next.

For once, a French politician has the courage to say out loud
what the French think and sometimes cry out about.
Interesting approach?
Learning to live in peace and harmony ?
Muslims who want to live under the law of the 'Islamic Sharia' &#8203;
have recently been told to leave France in order to guard against &#8203;
possible terrorist attacks, the government has targeted radicals.
Apparently, the Prime Minister, Francois Fillon has angered
&#8203; &#8203;some French Muslims in stating:
THOSE IMMIGRANTS, WHO ARE NOT FRENCH MUST ADAPT.
Take it or leave it, I am tired of this nation worrying about &#8203;
whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Our culture has developed with struggles and victories by millions &#8203;
of men and women who have sought freedom.
Our official language is French, not Spanish, or Lebanese, or Arabic, or Chinese, or Japanese, or any other language.
Therefore, if you want to be part of our society, learn the language!
Most French people believe in God. This is not some Christian obligation,
influence by the rightists or political pressure, but it is a fact, because men &#8203;
and women founded this nation on Christian principles, and this is clearly documented.
It is then appropriate to display this on the walls of our schools? &#8203;
If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world &#8203;
as your home, because God is part of our culture.
We will accept your beliefs without question.
All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in peaceful harmony with us.
This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, AND OUR LIFESTYLE.

And we offer you the opportunity to enjoy all this. &#8203;
But if you're tired of our flag, our commitment, our Christian beliefs, or our lifestyle,
I strongly encourage you to take advantage of another great French freedom,
THE RIGHT TO LEAVE.
If you are not happy here then LEAVE.
We did not force you to come here.
You asked to be here.
So accept the country YOU chose.

The first time I heard this piece of xenophobic garbage, it was attributed to Julia Gillard

http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/likeitorleaveit.asp

"Australia says NO -- This will be the second Time Julia Gillard has done this!
She sure isn't backing down on her hard line stance and one has to appreciate her belief in the rights of her native countrymen.
A breath of fresh air to see someone lead.? Australian Prime Minister does it again!!
The whole world needs a leader like this!"

Etc. etc. ad naus.

It is a sign of low intelligence, to get fooled by this sort of brain-rot fodder.

Pericles,
You obviously haven't been to France in the past ten years, I have ! I also spend 99.999% of my time in Australia & guess what, it's going that way too. Thanks the moron Lefties.
Poirot, you hear ? Moron ? Can't wait for your next unintelligent reply quip.

Hi Jay

I watched the utube you posted. The guy makes a lot of sense. I think he misses the issue that these social ' warriors' actually think they are god themselves. The false humility is sickening as demonstrated on Q&A each week. There lack of logic is easily uncovered by anyone taught to think despite the myriads of Government funded peer reviews. Self deception goes totally uncovered because they beleive they are pursuing a 'good' cause. The feminist is one of the greatest examples. It has led to more slavery then it has ever freed women. The speaker on the utube refers to that.

Here's another link to add to the discussion:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-02-23/brullleaders/44400

I would like to share an article, by a Muslim

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/my-muslim-religion-has-problems-that-need-fixing-20140828-109ibb.html

Quote: When will Muslims stand up and accept that yes we have problems within our faith. Maybe a few more problems than other faiths, but sure, we have problems. They don't just affect us as Muslims, they affect our friends, their families and our neighbours. They affect a society that welcomes us here, treats us as equals and gives us the opportunity to live a decent and dignified life. Democratic Australia gives us a voice and tries its best not to judge us.
The issues that we face within our religion range widely from individuals brutally beheading people in the name of establishing an Islamic Caliphate to, at a local level, female genital mutilation.
Muslims need to be able to discuss these issues openly and denounce barbaric behaviour. Instead, we choose to remain silent and then criticise a government that tries to make Australia safer

The Islamic Council is against the government taking steps to secure its citizens from Australian fundamentalists who fight wars in other countries. It's their prerogative to fight wherever they want. But these fundamentalist want to bring this war back to Australia. They do not value what Australians have. They do not agree with our way of life. They do not want to respect the law and the democracy in which we thrive.

Mr. Mohammed asks a lot of questions that most Muslims never ask. I wish we would ask himself why is it that hate, discrimination and violence come so easily to Islam and Muslims, but that would be really too much. We can't expect Muslims to question anything about Islam, only about the actions of other Muslims, as if those actions had nothing to do with Islam. In any case, thank you, Glenn.

Here's a couple more links to add to the discussion:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2014/07/11/4043888.htm

And -

http://theconversation.com/the-australian-liberty-alliance-and-the-politics-of-islamophobia-24225

Hey, individual, no need to start lashing about just because that internet snippet had made a fool of you.

>>Poirot, you hear ? Moron ? Can't wait for your next unintelligent reply quip<<

I bet you hate Snopes.

And not that it is any business of yours, but...

>>Pericles, You obviously haven't been to France in the past ten years<<

Not only have I "been to France" on any number of occasions over the past ten years - last year being one of them - I have stayed in some of the places often described by ignorant foreigners as "racial tinderboxes" and the like. The reality is that most of France is as tolerant as most of Australia. It is only the fear-ridden bigots and close-minded xenophobes who witter on about the "dreadful influx that is an unintended consequence to wrongly so-called multiculturalism".

The rest of us just get on with our lives.

Pericles,
What internet snippet ? When you visit France do you always strap your blacked-out glasses on ?

Foxy,

Keep up that spin and soon the victims themselves will be responsible and blameworthy for the dreadful crimes committed against them.

No surprise that the same political correctness that stymied official action and even victim complaints in Rotherham is being used here in this thread to derail and block discussion of the report into Rotherham.

When she was PM, Julia Gillard herself was sledged by the politically correct for even re-stating the obvious and accepted right of nations to control who comes across their borders. She was slammed for criticising Rudd's Big Australia - apparently according to some Australians should have no right to protect their quality of life and culture, or even to register protest about crippling taxes to fund the enormously expensive infrastructure and social benefits required by over-zealous immigration targets. Other politicians have been sledged for wanting to put Australian workers first, before importing foreign workers.

However, it takes a lot of gall and the front of a Sydney double-decker bus to spin ordinary concerned citizens as 'xenophobes' and 'racists' for even discussing the political correctness that prevented victim, friend and relative, and public officials (including police!) alike, from reporting and taking the required action in Rotherham.

You clearly don't even read your own posts, individual.

>>Pericles, What internet snippet ?<<

The one that caused you to post this piece of xenophobic garbage.

>>For once, a French politician has the courage to say out loud
what the French think and sometimes cry out about etc. etc. ad naus.<<

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6547#196072

I don't know where you found it, but because it is so clearly a cut'n'paste jobbie, I assumed it was from the internet. Which is also where you should have discovered that it is 100% fake.

>>When you visit France do you always strap your blacked-out glasses on?<<

D'you know what? That isn't even a clever or witty response, let alone a meaningful one. I'd place its origin somewhere in the playground of a junior school.

>>You obviously haven't been to France in the past ten years, I have !<<

So, do tell. Where did you go in France, how long did you spend there talking to French people, and what did you find? I'm willing to bet that you sent a couple of days in the tourist spots of Paris, talking English to hotel staff.

To repeat the point I made earlier.

>>What the vociferous white folks on this thread are advocating is nothing less than the reawakening of religious wars, which in the more politically advanced parts of the world is slowly being eradicated.<<

In short, by hankering after a long-distant, and largely illusory Australian past, the whack-a-mozzie brigade is actually making our lives more dangerous.

And the frightening aspect of this is that not only don't they care, they actually relish the thought of a war against Islam.

Poor, misguided fools.

Dear Individual,

Don't be jealous of Pericles.

You may think that everyone who is anyone wears
sun-glasses (and when they do one has to shield
themselves from the awesomeness). Therefore
repeat after me - "I deserve a new pair of
sunglasses!" Go get a pair, you'll feel better.
Just don't forget to clean them.

otb,

Here's another link to add to your discussion:

http://www.abc.net.au/religion/articles/2011/10/06/3334026.htm

Cheers.

Foxy,
Are you avoiding this one ? Mine's better that yours :-)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10204326980673843&set=vb.1209145283&type=2&theater

What it amazing is that where (say) a CEO is accused of sexually harassing an employee there are demands for sackings, public outing and humiliation, more laws and millions awarded in compensation. However organised gangs can groom, molest and rape 1,400 girls over decades with authorities AND THE MEDIA being aware, but no official heads have rolled.

Why not? What is going wrong and apparently, is unlikely to be fixed without external public pressure?

To Foxy,

You might believe that your alleged 'Islamophobia' and 'racism' against those Pakistani men is a worse crime than the proved sex grooming and repeated rape of 1,400 young white females over decades, but very few others might agree with you.

You have to be really insensitive, callous, to the suffering of the Rotherham victims and families to insinuate that it is all a myth and moral panic. That is the spin you intend through posting that headline (your link refers).

The deliberate sarcasm and offence of your 'Cheers' is frivolous and inappropriate.

You have managed to derail another thread, but here is hoping there can yet be some discussion of Professor Alexis Jay's findings.

otb,

I don't know what you're on about now,
but I suggest that you really need to find
another target apart from me on this forum.

I frankly am not interested in what you have
to say. You need a victim - and I'm not it.

So putting it politely - Go Away!

You need a victim - and I'm not it.
Foxy,
but you are a victim, you're just oblivious to it.

Dear Individual,

That's the whole point isn't it.

It's not what you look at that
matters - its what you see.

BTT

Organised gangs can groom, molest and rape 1,400 girls over decades with authorities AND THE MEDIA being aware, but no official heads have rolled.

Why not? What is going wrong and apparently, is unlikely to be fixed without external public pressure?

"Rotherham researcher 'sent on diversity course' after raising alarm
The Home Office researcher was told to "never, ever" repeat evidence, contained in her 2001 report, that most of the perpetrators were Asian men [Pakistani]

A researcher who raised the alarm over the sexual abuse of teenage girls in Rotherham more than a decade ago was sent on a 'ethnicity and diversity course' by child protection bosses who refused to act on her evidence.

The researcher, who was seconded to Rotherham council by the Home Office, was told she must "never, ever" again refer to the fact that the abusers were predominantly Asian men.

Speaking to the BBC's Panorama programme under the condition of anonymity, the researcher said that she identified more 270 victims of trafficking and underage prostitution by mainly Muslim gangs in Rotherham.

But, despite being sent to Rotherham Council, the report - based on interviews with underage girls seeking help from the council's anti-child prositution project, called Risky Business - was never published.

Indeed, the council tried unsuccessfully to sack the researcher after she resisted pressure to change her findings.

Data to back up the report's findings also went missing from the Risky Business office the weekend after she submitted her report, the researcher told the programme.
.."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11069178/Rotherham-researcher-sent-on-diversity-course-after-raising-alarm.html

It is quite obvious that something has seriously
gone wrong in Rotherham.

Public pressure certainly does need to be put on
the Council, the police, the social workers involved-
who worked on the day-to-day events - (and others involved) -
where were all these people - that this abuse was not prevented
and stopped for 16 years?

Foxy,

Yes, but sadly it appears the problem is above and beyond them.

Knowing the calibre of good, earnest citizens that one normally encounters as nurses, police and so on, there has to be serious systemic deficiencies that extend to the highest levels. You can bet your bottom dollar that there are bones bleaching in the sun of many whistleblowers who tried in vain to help those victims.

There is a coarse saying that *bleep* flows down from the top.

Yaaawwwnnn, this is getting boring. Let's agree to kill this discussion off, it's deteriorated to the point of going around in circles.

OTB, Individual, let it go.

Pericles,

Sorry I’m late in responding but am rather time poor.

You are deflecting, as all progressives do.

“That's a really profound contribution, Constance.”
Thanks.

“Yet I don't recall anyone suggesting that the cure for such a systemic moral black hole is to blame not only the individual criminals, not just the management hierarchy who covered up for them, but the Roman Catholic religion and everyone who practised it.”

Paedophilia is not exclusive to the largest institution in the world that is the Catholic Church, including the BBC. The rest - Wow.

“Britain was torn apart by two warring versions of Christianity for over a century. People were hanged without a second thought, simply because they were a) Protestant or b) Catholic. “

For a start, I don’t consider Islam a religion, it is more of a political cult except for the Sufis. You’re talking of another era and it is irrelevant as your comparison is Medieval vs Medieval, now it is Medieval vs Modern which is very different. Your example: all over a boil infested fat and lusty monarch with syphilis who wanted to get rid of a wife. Not exactly a holy start for the COE.

“Islam appears to be in the throes of the same disease. And once again, innocent citizens are targetted simply because they are either Sunni or Shia.”

But Muslims are also targeting non Muslims all round the world, in case you haven’t noticed.

Cont...

...Cont
“We in Australia in the twentyfirst century are in fact a great deal more fortunate than the folk of Tudor England, simply because we have a strong legal framework within which we pursue criminals, without checking first which church they go to.”

Why do we have a Middle Eastern Police Task Force? Legal frameworks cannot control the concerns and anxieties of humans.

“But the key point I was trying to get across is that the difference between being deported for being Muslim, and being kneecapped for being Protestant, is almost non-existent. If we haven't learnt that little lesson from history, then we are in for a very hard time indeed.”

Western countries and also Thailand, The Philippines and various parts of Africa are ALL having problems with Muslims who are a minority, and also give problems or at least many restrictions and different rules to non Muslim minorities in majority Muslim countries.

“The implication is that you prefer not to learn from history, but wish to keep making the same mistakes all over again.”

Progressives would not have defended Europe from Muslim invasion as the Crusades did.

But, “The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.” – GK Chesterton

Don't worry, Peri I do take note of history, past and in the making.

And now in the history in the making the progressives did not protect the 1400 girls in Rotherham and the rest of Northern England it seems.

The normal people in the majority do have concerns.

Constance, you forgot China, India, Russia and the Balkan states, they're all dealing with Muslim aggression of one sort or another.
What's obvious is that "progressives" respect no law save that which is within themselves, they don't trust God nor do they abide by the laws of men.
Jihadist warriors are at least following Sharia law, they're predictable and people know what to expect when they roll into town.
We in the West don't know what to expect from our Social Justice Warriors, you'd think that because everyone knows that sex with children is illegal they'd protect children from molestation but as we see they might or they might not depending on how they weigh up the situation, even as public officials they clearly don't place the law of the land above all other considerations.

It's not what you look at that
matters - its what you see.
Foxy,
Well, in that case what do you see in that link with the reply to the Muslim woman ?

It is difficult to work out whether you are deliberately avoiding the point, Constance, or whether you genuinely don't understand it. Or maybe you are just too time poor to work through it..

>>Paedophilia is not exclusive to the largest institution in the world that is the Catholic Church<<

The comparison is: you want to blame all Muslims for the acts perpetrated by a few. Which is like blaming all Catholics for the acts perpetrated by a few. Too difficult?

>>For a start, I don’t consider Islam a religion, it is more of a political cult<<

There's your first problem. Islam is a religion. Particularly to its adherents. Your opinion is quite irrelevant.

>>You’re talking of another era and it is irrelevant as your comparison is Medieval vs Medieval, now it is Medieval vs Modern which is very different.<<

Tell that to the Protestants and Catholics of Belfast.

>>Progressives would not have defended Europe from Muslim invasion as the Crusades did.<<

There you go again. Let's start another religious war. All the previous ones worked out so well, after all.

>>Don't worry, Peri I do take note of history, past and in the making.<<

Then you are giving a very good impression of doing exactly the opposite.

Pericles,
You want to say something just for sake of saying something, not progressive at all. We know about the Catholics & we know about the Islamists. You are defending the Islamists. Any particular reason why ?

In every case where Islamist extremists attack they kill men, gather teenage girls as wives and women of murdered husbands as concubines [spoils of war] and force them to convert. I attended meeting on Monday night of persons currently working in Syria and Iraq and this is happening right now. Woman are seen merely as lesser creatures to be subdued and for the procreation of more Muslims.

Woman are seen merely as lesser creatures to be subdued and for the procreation of more Muslims.
Josephus,
Our Feminists seem to have no ojections to those treatments by constantly disputing whenever criticism is directed at islamists who side-step their religion for personal satisfaction.

That's pretty rich, individual, when the thread is flooded with the usual suspects knee-jerking their way through their whack-a-mozzie playbook.

>>Pericles, You want to say something just for sake of saying something, not progressive at all.<<

Someone has to point out the double standards involved in blaming the religion for the crime, thereby allowing every member of that religion to be a legitimate target.

>>We know about the Catholics & we know about the Islamists.<<

So you say. Yet you fail to spot the multitude of historical parallels. Protestants and Catholics have been at war for centuries, merely for being Protestants and Catholics. The results of this perpetual religious war are... what? An eventual acceptance by both sides - Falls Road being a possible exception - that nobody can possibly win, in either the short or long term. Advocating a white-folk versus Islam conflict in Australia just seems completely counterproductive.

>>You are defending the Islamists. Any particular reason why ?<<

Oh, that old thing. I disagree with you, so I must by definition be defending your enemy, a stance that you use to give yourself licence to ignore everything you don't like to think about.

As an atheist, I find the posturings of religionists to be anachronistic, thoughtless (in the literal sense) and downright dangerous. And only a zealot would interpret that as a defence of one side or the other.

And before you leap back into print and say "ah yes, but to a Muslim an atheist is still an apostate, and therefore at risk too", please understand that I am fully aware of this. But that is even more of a reason to oppose the creation of a religious war in Australia.

We should demonstrate that a simple accommodation is possible, with just a modicum of tolerance and understanding. We should lead, not follow.

Pericles

you must be blind to the fact that a religous war has already started. You may well argue whether its right or not to be involved. I mean who cares if thousands of woman are raped, journalist are beheaded and thousands shot dead just for being non muslims. Much more outrage at Israel defending themselves from terrorist who use kids as human shields according to most of our Islam loving progressives. Your comparisons with the Catholic church and Islam is worn out dogma. Why not compare the slaughter of believers by secularist in the form of Stalin or Mao. Oh no doubt you will redefine terms to fit your narrative.

for those interested in truth re Islam. Again it exposes how naive progressives are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY&feature=share

What I find a concern
is that we in the West are clearly setting
the problem up as "Them" against "Us."
We seem to be demonising "Them." And as
another poster pointed out on an article
discussion this whitewash's our own failings
and makes for a mindset incapable of
critical reflection. Politicians then exploit
this for political purposes as does the media.
This doesn't help and makes the fear even greater.

This poster pinpointed the problem to be
not a case of - Christian versus
Islam, but thinking versus reaction.

Foxy this thread is all about the failings of the dominant paradigm which in all developed countries is multiculturalism, all of the problems within those countries and the ones they project outward to the Third World come from 45 years of progressive politics.
You seem to forget that in our country conservatives lost power in 1969 and have never even seriously attempted to assert themselves since, and for pete's sake don't say "Howard" he wasn't a conservative in any sense of the word.

Maybe for you, runner.

>>Pericles you must be blind to the fact that a religous war has already started.<<

But I suspect you have been in a permanent state of war, all your religious life. It seems to go with the territory.

>>I mean who cares if thousands of woman are raped, journalist are beheaded and thousands shot dead just for being non muslims.<<

I care, runner. However, caring does not mean that every Muslim is my enemy, any more than every Catholic is my enemy as a result of the particular crimes that some members of their church have performed.

I also care about the shooting of civilians by police in the United States. But I don't feel the need to declare war on the United States. I also care about the asymmetric response of Israel to Hamas provocation, but that does not mean I advocate starting a war against either Israel or Hamas. I also care about the incursions of Russian troops into Ukraine, but I still don't consider that declaring war on Russia is at all constructive.

Saying "you don't care" is nothing more than an empty insult, intended to divert attention from the real issues.

>>Your comparisons with the Catholic church and Islam is worn out dogma.<<

This is not about dogma, it is about the irrational response of declaring war on people merely because of their beliefs. These are not comparisons, they are precedents. And all the evidence of history points to the fact that from a religious war, there are never any winners.

>>Why not compare the slaughter of believers by secularist in the form of Stalin or Mao. Oh no doubt you will redefine terms to fit your narrative.<<

So do tell, runner. Is it the fact that Stalin and Mao slaughtered people, or that they slaughtered "believers", that concerns you most? And do you think we should have entered into a religious war with Russia or China as a result of what they were doing?

From past experience, I don't expect a coherent response to any of this, so don't bother.

Who created the "Them and Us" mentality; just read the articles put out by Muslims living in the Western democracy's. They hate the democratic system and prefer theocratic social control by Imams. That is why they cry about their children brought up in Western freedoms. Parents cannot control them because parents believe the State should control; and complain when the State does not control. The State is only there for out of control or criminal persons, and this is where Muslim youth conflict with the State and blame the State for not giving them sufficient religious moorings. {see the thread on Moderate Muslims]

I have been away for a while and have not followed this but, if the latest beheading claim is proven true, it's time to rid the WOLD of these grubs forever and every nation should get involved to get the job done. Enough talk, enough delay we must act now.

Then, once these grubs are removed we must then ban this hatful crap world wide.

We must unite and say, no more!

Rotherham: politics ‘imported from Pakistan’ fuelled sex abuse cover-up – MP

An unhealthy brand of politics “imported” from Pakistan is partly to blame for the cover-up of mass child abuse in Rotherham and other British cities, a campaigning MP has claimed.
Simon Danczuk, who helped expose a pattern of grooming of white teenage girls by men from a Pakistani background in Rochdale, where he is the Labour MP, said a culture of intimidation and closing of ranks within parts of the Asian community had mired politics in towns and cities across northern England for years.
He said Asian councillors were under constant pressure from the community to “conform” and other politicians acquiesced for fear of being accused of racism, failing to face up to evidence of abuse as a result.
..
The Rotherham scandal and a series of cases in towns including Rochdale highlighted how evidence of Pakistani men targeting white girls for abuse was repeatedly played down for fear of accusations of racism.

Denis MacShane: I was too much of a 'liberal leftie' and should have done more to investigate child abuse 27 Aug 2014

Mr Danczuk said the elements of Pakistani political culture itself were partly to blame for the cover-up.
“There are cultural issues around the way politics are done in the Asian community which have to change,” he said.
He said he had personally come under pressure from Asian councillors and members of the community for speaking out as well as being warned by prominent figures in his party.
He pointed to the way in which two Muslim councillors in Rochdale had provided character references for one of the perpetrators of the Rochdale abuse.
“Politics are done differently in Pakistan, it is a cultural difference we have imported some of that into some of these northern towns and cities and I think we have to face up to the fact that we can’t carry on doing politics like that."
“It is not healthy and the direct consequence is that we end up having to tackle issues like has been faced in Rotherham.”...

http://tinyurl.com/l3e2d4h

we in the West are clearly setting the problem up as "Them" against "Us."
Foxy,
wrong as usual. "They" are making that distinction !

Such is the all-encompassing nature of the totalitarian political correctness of 'Progressivism' that even the independent reports on Rotherham forget to mention that some and perhaps many of the child victims would have been boys. It is girls, sometimes children, but never boys as the victims mentioned. Need three guesses, or will one do?

I'll put the disclaimer out first saying that what those men have alleged to have done is abhorrent and should be punished. But the tone I'm reading here is its the whole communities/religion fault that this happened.

So when a white guy likes to fondle children, its his fault alone. When a brown guy that is a Muslim likes to fondle children, we should ban all Muslim immigration and deport every last one of them back to where they come from.

nowhereman, not at all, but, when you have people who are born here, enjoy what we have to offer, then grow up hating us and wanting to rid the nation of anyone who disbelieved their preachings, it's proof enough for me that our country is no place for these people and, as their own leaders are powerless to either identify the thugs from within, or control them, I'm afraid that that the only option left to get them out, is to ban the religion/faith, call it what you like.

They, their leaders, tried their way and failed, so now we should do things our way, which means if anyone wishes to follow Islam, they need to find somewhere else to do it.

nowhereman, In Western society sex with children is no where thought of as acceptable. In some Islamic societies sex with children is approved, so the religious acceptance of Mohamed fondling 6 year old Alisha and having intercourse with her at 9 gives example to that religious culture.

'nowhereman, In Western society sex with children is no where thought of as acceptable '

true Josephus however for the progressives taking photographs of young girls nude is art but pornography for everyone else.

Jay,
I knew I hadn’t covered some other countries. Thanks.

Yes, I understand, please don’t mention human rights and as for human rights lawyers - cringeworthy. Remember, Sudan was once head of the Human Rights leg of United Nations not so long ago.

I pray, Oh Lord, please don’t bring in any more bureaucrats or social justice advocates into the universe. I think calling them warriors is too kind a word for them. Warrior I think has a more mythical and chivalrous quality which they just don’t have. Theirs is narcissim. I do like that guy, Aurini - saw the vid you recently sent. He is on to it. I have seen his vids before.

The social justice I was taught at school seems almost like a different subject to a lot of the social justice issues of today. I also thought I had a good take on human rights once, even met a Human Rights Nobel Prize winner (she was the real deal) where I was working at one time - was a great job. Now things have gotten murky.

nowhereman,

What do you say to this, the imported culture for starters? Then you might comment on the political correctness that protects crime See here:

<Simon Danczuk, who helped expose a pattern of grooming of white teenage girls by men from a Pakistani background in Rochdale, where he is the Labour MP, said a culture of intimidation and closing of ranks within parts of the Asian community had mired politics in towns and cities across northern England for years.

He said Asian councillors were under constant pressure from the community to “conform” and other politicians acquiesced for fear of being accused of racism, failing to face up to evidence of abuse as a result...

The Rotherham scandal and a series of cases in towns including Rochdale highlighted how evidence of Pakistani men targeting white girls for abuse was repeatedly played down for fear of accusations of racism.

Mr Danczuk said the elements of Pakistani political culture itself were partly to blame for the cover-up.
“There are cultural issues around the way politics are done in the Asian community which have to change,” he said.
He said he had personally come under pressure from Asian councillors and members of the community for speaking out as well as being warned by prominent figures in his party...

“Politics are done differently in Pakistan, it is a cultural difference we have imported some of that into some of these northern towns and cities and I think we have to face up to the fact that we can’t carry on doing politics like that.
“It is not healthy and the direct consequence is that we end up having to tackle issues like has been faced in Rotherham.”
He described it as “a looking after your own” within the Asian community which other politicians had accepted.
“Pressure was applied, that’s what will have happened to Denis MacShane and he went along with it,” he said, referring to comments last week from the disgraced former MP for Rotherham who said he had shied away from the issue because he was a “Guardian reading liberal leftie”.>

What must also be noted is that the authorities in Rotherham would have a very real apprehension of violence from the Pakistanis if they had gone public at an early stage or demanded that the Police act, because the Police are just as much at fault here as the social services.
This was the time period of significant unrest among "Asian" youth in the north with severe rioting in Bradford and other towns, if they'd come forward and pointed the finger at this particular ethnic group they town might have gone up in flames.
The other point is that we're not talking about pedophiles grooming girls for their own use, they were being procured for prostitution and being used as entertainment at gatherings of Asian men across the north of England, sex parties if you will with sometimes dozens of participants.

Nowhereman,
That's called a straw man argument, the Saville sex case in particular is very much being used as an indictment of middle class White/English society as a whole and in the mainstream media there's an extreme bias toward only featuring White murderers and sex offenders even when those crimes are far more prevalent in non White ethnic groups.
You've probably heard the name Ted Bundy? What about Anthony Sowell or Chester Turner? You'd know about Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire ripper? What about Kenneth Erskine?

Pericles,

I’m finding your reasoning strange. Tell me if I’m wrong, you are inferring that it is only the Catholic Church who are the paedophiles. Right? If that is the case, why? Paedophilia unfortunately permeates throughout society, again, including the BBC. Some say the secular media like to shine the torch too brightly on the CC on the issue in general moreso than others.

My point again, Catholics do not have a stronghold on paedophilia (that is why it is not exclusive to the CC - get it?) but the Muslims do have a stronghold on terrorism and the poor treatment of women, so your argument is wanting.

You do seem to take things very literally yourself, sorry I don’t think I do. You overreact to the sheer mention of Crusades when the point was about progressives and history. The gist of what I’m saying is about the failings of progressives. Understand? Or too difficult for you? I don’t want a religious war for goodness sake nor am I wanting to incite one. How can we anyway, we are a secular country with a multiculture like the rest of the Western world. And hey, you are the one that seems to be inciting the idea of a religious war by bringing up Christian conflicts for a start. Must be your staunch Atheist stance.

Yes, my opinion on Islam not being a religion is irrelevant but what other religion behaves so radically in a political sense and bizarrely even instructs in toiletry. But then again, everything seems to becoming a religion these days (or a cult in itself) like being a progressive or a hardcore multiCuLturist.
Cont........

When a brown guy that is a Muslim likes to fondle children, we should ban all Muslim immigration and deport every last one of them
nowhereman,
I have yet to see evidence of adults having sex with children & marrying children as part of normal daily life in any other society.

....Cont

If the authorities in Rotherham had gone about their work objectively and not had looked at the perpetrators of the sex slavery occurring in Northern England as “oh dear, they’re Asian/Muslim, we better walk gently here and just ignore what’s going on so we won’t look any further, as we don’t want to rock the boat”.

Also, who said I was blaming all Muslims? You do have a habit of making presumptions. It seems the progressive stance is to deter any discussion on Islam even though we are seeing atrocities and other bad behaviour in its name all over the joint. I do not hate anyone, I only have genuine concerns otherwise I would not have bothered studying a short course on Islam. I find Islam pretty scary, like many people including English authors, Jeanette Winterson and Salman Rushdie.
Radical Islam that is, which is growing all the time. But as I read on a recent post, Muslims don’t wish to even be differentiated between radical or moderate. Go figure?

So tell me, what do you think of the Islamic attitude towards women in general? Right, you do not wish to discuss - okay then. What do you think of honour killings in Britain being hushed and overlooked. It’s okay as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone? As the saying goes.

Hell, I’m a peace loving hippy at heart but that doesn’t mean I cannot see things as they really are and that I have to forego my critical faculties and not be able to express my concerns.

Cont....

....Cont

Pericules,
>>You’re talking of another era and it is irrelevant as your comparison is Medieval vs Medieval, now it is Medieval vs Modern which is very different.<<
“Tell that to the Protestants and Catholics of Belfast.”
You are deflecting again, I made the reference above to medieval Britain, not Ireland. Or do you think Ireland belongs to Britain? You really like to twist things, don’t you. And again, you like to think it is a religious confict but you are wrong. You just like to think it is.

Has it ever occurred to you that the crux of the Islamic problem might actually be Western secularism? Western hedonism etc? I’ll get back on that one.

Jay of Melbourne, "The other point is that we're not talking about pedophiles grooming girls for their own use, they were being procured for prostitution and being used as entertainment at gatherings of Asian men across the north of England, sex parties if you will with sometimes dozens of participants"

Correct. The procuring and trafficking of children as sex slaves. Add to that other noxious and serious crimes such as kidnapping, getting minors hooked on hard drugs and so on. God knows how many children were taken from the country and sold abroad. How many disappeared and dead?

What about Australia? There are similarities in the policies and conditions. Australian authorities are keeping their heads well down on this.

From past experience, I don't expect a coherent response to any of this, so don't bother.

No its horrible Pericles when facts destroy your hopelessly flawed narrative.

well reasoned posts Constance

Of course you are, Constance.

>>Tell me if I’m wrong, you are inferring that it is only the Catholic Church who are the paedophiles<<

Because I am not.

>>Muslims do have a stronghold on terrorism and the poor treatment of women, so your argument is wanting<<

Are you suggesting that outside Islam, there is no terrorism, no poor treatment of women? If you are, then this is can be rephrased as "you are inferring that it is only the Muslims who are terrorists and who treat women badly."

Which is an attitude with which you, quite rightly, have some issues.

>>You overreact to the sheer mention of Crusades when the point was about progressives and history.<<

Leaving aside the faintly ridiculous lumping-together of all who disagree with you as "progressives", let's concentrate on the history.

Do you believe that religious wars are justified? It appears that you do not.

But I entered this thread not to dispute Rotherham with you - you make some very pertinent points about the failings of the authorities, and the results of their misplaced political correctness. My concern is with those who actually do believe that outright religious war is a neat thing for Australia to be involved in. And the lack of logic in their approach to creating one.

>>But pointing the finger at "multiculturalism" is to miss the point. No race or religion has a monopoly on sin, and to blame the religion itself for systematic sexual exploitation of children is simplistic, and wrong. Those who advocate "sending them back" or "not letting them in" should ask themselves why they do not knee-jerk demand the same treatment for all Roman Catholics. Not just the priests involved, but every Catholic in the land. Because a case can easily be made for moral parallels.<<

You objected to the "moral parallels" part, and proceeded from there. I still maintain that this is not "relativism", nor is it an attack on the Catholic Church, but a simple illustration of the double standards at play in the arguments put forward by the whack-a-mozzie brigade.

I really think that some posters should study a bit of history, there has been mention here and there of events in Ireland, someone mentioned that Protestants had been kneecapped, the inference being that they were kneecapped because of their faith.
No Protestants in the occupied part of Ireland was ever kneecapped because of their religion.

The fighting in Ireland is stated to be between two religions, Catholic and Protestant, nothing could be further from the truth.
The fight has been between Republican democracy and British tyranny, the fact that most of the defenders of democracy have been Catholic merely reflects that the majority of Irish people are Catholic.

Many of the founding heroes of Irish Republicanism were Protestants, the first elected President of modern Ireland was a Protestant and elected by Catholics, a great Irish patriot and Parliamentarian, the late Dan Breen, was an atheist, and elected by Catholics.

<Author Yasmin Alibhai-Brown speaks out
The nation is angry. As an Asian, Muslim and mother, I am appalled too and also ashamed.

As we now know, hundreds of Rotherham children were abused by men of Pakistani origin. Let me say this loud and clear: the sex fiends are a small minority.

Most Asian or Muslim men are not hunting and hurting young white girls. Abusers come from all classes and backgrounds. Jimmy Savile was not a Pakistani.

That said, we Asians must recognise there is something rotten in our cultures. Too many of our men have a problem with females. And sex. We don’t talk about such things. Our languages don’t even have words for sexual parts or acts. I want to break this awful conspiracy of silence.

The sex gang victims were seen as “prostitutes” because they were out, probably mouthy and not covered up.

The men who destroyed their lives were sadists but their crimes came from a set of attitudes towards white society shared by parents, priests, elders and religious teachers.

What we need is Asian women in Rotherham, and Rochdale, Oxford and Luton, to march with white mums and shout: “These are our daughters.” Human rights are for all, black, brown and white.>

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rotherham-child-sex-scandal-resulted-4137542

Ever been to Ireland, Is Mise?

>>No Protestants in the occupied part of Ireland was ever kneecapped because of their religion.<<

Thought not.

Here's someone with a somewhat more relevant set of observations.

"Once the Troubles got going, Northern Ireland saw the biggest population movement in Europe since the Second World War as the two communities separated. It became evident that working class Protestants and Catholics simply could not co-exist as previously mixed areas became exclusively one or the other.In many of these communities, law and order ceased to exist. The police were largely distrusted. Justice, such as it was, was dished out by the paramilitaries. This vigilantism was often extremely brutal, with victims being kneecapped (shot in the knees), beaten or tarred and feathered."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/topics/troubles_everyday_life

And this:

"The RUC didn't keep kneecapping statistics for the first four years of the troubles, but between 1973 and 1979, the police say there were 756 kneecappings, 531 of them Catholic, 225 of them Protestant."

http://aliciapatterson.org/stories/kneecapping

>>The fight has been between Republican democracy and British tyranny<<

That is certainly one aspect of it. But there is absolutely no doubt that the root cause (of the most recent Troubles) was economic oppression by Protestants over Catholics, within Northern Ireland itself.

The difficulty with the concept of "British tyrrany" is that Northern Ireland has consistently voted to be governed from Westminster.

Democracy in action, you might say.

"Ever been to Ireland, Is Mise?....Thought not."

Think again, Pericles, I have lived in Ireland, owned a house, was consequently a rate payer and hold Irish citizenship.

Can you give me one reference to where a Protestant was kneecapped simply because he was Protestant?

>>The fight has been between Republican democracy and British tyranny<<

That is certainly one aspect of it. But there is absolutely no doubt that the root cause (of the most recent Troubles) was economic oppression by Protestants over Catholics, within Northern Ireland itself."

I'd agree with that but let us add the right to vote and the fact that some Orangemen (let us not sully Protestantism by referring to the sect in Ireland as normal Protestants), had multiple votes was hardly democratic.
Britain condoned the undemocratic processes in Occupied Ireland and did nothing about them.

"The difficulty with the concept of "British tyrrany" is that Northern Ireland has consistently voted to be governed from Westminster."

On face value that's true, but firstly the people of Ireland voted for Home Rule, the Ulstermen, traitors to both Ireland and Britain threatened rebellion unless Ulster (note, not Northern Ireland) was excluded from Home Rule.

The British Government capitulated and decided that Ulster would become a separate State.

Then reality reared its ugly head and it was realized that Ulster had a majority of Republicans, so six of the nine counties of Ulster were cut off to form Northern Ireland where the Orange Order would hold a majority.

The war cry of the so called Loyalists had been "Ulster Will Fight, and Ulster Will Be Right" but it was soon changed to an acceptance of 2/3rds of Ulster; and the rest is undemocratic history.

The British army was called out in the 1920s to protect people going to vote from Catholic areas, why?, because the polling places for those constituents had been placed in Orange controlled areas and voters heading for those polling places were being shot at.

"Democracy in action, you might say."

You might say, Pericles, but not many others would.

Actually, that could explain your bilious one-eyed stance, Is Mise, more than somewhat.

>>Think again, Pericles, I have lived in Ireland, owned a house, was consequently a rate payer and hold Irish citizenship.<<

But at least we are now in agreement as to the religious fundamentals of the Irish situation. I'm sure, for instance, that many Irish share this particular view of yours...

>>...let us not sully Protestantism by referring to the sect in Ireland as normal Protestants<<

So, now we not only have Catholics vs. Protestants, we have Protestants vs. Orangemen. Another schism in the religious fundament?

No us vs. them here, either...

>>...the Ulstermen, traitors to both Ireland and Britain<<

I think you are making my point for me rather nicely.

Is Mise,

Thanks for clarifying the issue of British tyranny in Ireland to my mate, Peri.

Poor man, he can’t take it. He’s English you know. I think you’ve touched a raw nerve.

Gawd, what a sore loser!

The fundi Atheist thinks all conflicts, even the imaginary ones with China and Russia are all the fault of religion.

I think his become delirious.

Pot calling the kettle black.

The sheer arrogance.

Is Mise,
Aren't the Islamists just a 2014 version of the Irish of the 1960's only their numbers are greater ?

Pericles,

Not only are there divisions in Ireland between between Protestant and Protestant but there are divisions between Catholic and Catholic.

The Free Presbyterians in Northern Ireland are agin' just about everybody that doesn't share their narrow interpretation of Christianity.
To many of them Queen Elizabeth II is a Catholic.
Their premier pastor, the Rev. Ian Paisley, was famous for his statement
" I have Catholic friends (said softly) but they are all damned (said with rising voice) DAMNED! (crescendo).

The first Prime Minister of Northern Ireland, Sir James Craig was famous for his democratic leanings when he advised Orange businessmen not to employ Catholics,(as you said, democracy in action).

The non-Catholic Primate of Ireland, Richard Lionel Clarke (born 25 June 1949) is the current Church of Ireland Archbishop of Armagh and Primate of All Ireland.
He is an Irish citizen and was born in Dublin, he lives, I believe, in the Republic where the level of tolerance for the Church of Ireland (Anglican Communion) is high.

Yes, Pericles, the religious divisions in Ireland are much more subtle than a simple Catholic versus Protestant pallet, all of ROYGBIV are there.

individual,

"Is Mise,
Aren't the Islamists just a 2014 version of the Irish of the 1960's only their numbers are greater ?"

Not at all, the Irish were fighting for democracy, as they have for over a thousand years, since my ancestor Diarmait Mac Murchada invited the Normans to come and help him in one of his petty wars.
He swore fealty to the King of England, Henry II (another ancestor), and is thus known in Irish history as The First Traitor; bit of a bugbear but I acknowledge him! One takes the good with the bad.

Many Australians lost loved ones in that confused, horrendous conflict. Time to move on.

Dallán Forgaill's poetry
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMEAlzuEXWI

My point. Exactly.

>>Yes, Pericles, the religious divisions in Ireland are much more subtle than a simple Catholic versus Protestant pallet, all of ROYGBIV are there.<<

Very similar to the religious divisions within Islam, I would imagine, between Sunni, Salafi, Wahabi, Shi'ite, Ahmadiyya, Quadiani, Sufi, Hanafi, Shafi, Ismaili and all the rest. Conflict over religious differences, all about whose particular God is right, and whose is wrong.

What we really need here in Australia, according to the bulk of the white-bread "Aussies" on this thread, is to create our own personal religious war, between citizens of the same country, who just happen to have different religious beliefs.

Oh look, here's one...

>>...it's time to rid the WOLD of these grubs forever and every nation should get involved to get the job done. Enough talk, enough delay we must act now. Then, once these grubs are removed we must then ban this hatful crap world wide. We must unite and say, no more!<<

He is talking about all Muslims, Constance. And his is the attitude you are applauding. I'm sure they make you proud to be Australian.

Pericles,

"Very similar to the religious divisions within Islam, I would imagine, between Sunni, Salafi, Wahabi, Shi'ite, Ahmadiyya, Quadiani, Sufi, Hanafi, Shafi, Ismaili and all the rest. Conflict over religious differences, all about whose particular God is right, and whose is wrong."

Not at all similar, Cyclops, the divisions in Ireland are not about whose God is right, they all worship the same God and the divisions are all man made, political.

As I pointed out the heroes and founding fathers of Irish Republicanism were Protestants, Protestants moreover who were appalled at the treatment of the Catholic Irish by the Government in Westminster.

All that the Irish have ever wanted was to govern their own country and when they had achieved this by their actions under the democratic Westminster system, the British system, they were thwarted by the British Government pandering to a minority of Orange hued Irishmen in the un-democraticly constituted 2/3 rds of Ulster, that the British call Northern Ireland (strangely enough the most northern part of Ireland is not in so-called "Northern Ireland").

So there is no comparison, except that IS hates democracy and Britain perverts it when it suits.

It is not just a problem of a few criminals and some casual bureaucrats. Toxic elements of a backward culture have been introduced including favouritism and political corruption.

That must give rise to questions about serious deficiencies in the policy and administration of immigration, and multiculturalism policy. The apparently unforeseen negative consequences are in abundant evidence and the contributing causes are widespread and systemic. What went wrong that these critical risks and catastrophic consequences were not recognised in the first place, and evidence of problems in immigration and multicultural policy has been plastered over many times before?

Quoted earlier,

<Author Yasmin Alibhai-Brown speaks out
...we Asians [referring one assumes to Pakistanis in this case] must recognise there is something rotten in our cultures. Too many of our men have a problem with females. And sex. We don’t talk about such things. Our languages don’t even have words for sexual parts or acts. I want to break this awful conspiracy of silence.

The sex gang victims were seen as “prostitutes” because they were out, probably mouthy and not covered up.

The men who destroyed their lives were sadists but their crimes came from a set of attitudes towards white society shared by parents, priests, elders and religious teachers.

What we need is Asian women in Rotherham, and Rochdale, Oxford and Luton, to march with white mums and shout: “These are our daughters.” Human rights are for all, black, brown and white".>

I'd suggest they are very similar, Is Mise.

>>Not at all similar, Cyclops, the divisions in Ireland are not about whose God is right, they all worship the same God and the divisions are all man made, political.<<

All variants of Muslim worship "the same God" too, you know. Amazingly enough, it appears to be the same one that Christians (of all persuasions) recognize.

But I have to agree with your main point, which is that all religious divisions are essentially political in nature. I don't see that as necessarily a good thing, though.

In 1947, India was divided into India and Pakistan - much as Northern Ireland was earlier separated out of Ireland. While there was enormous (religiously inspired) bloodshed during the partition itself, at least the end result created a recognizable boundary between the two. Who is to say that even more people would have died, if the population had remained within the same borders. Or that the Irish people would not have continued their own religious war, but in closer proximity to each other, if the six counties had not been carved out.

Pericles,I must take exception to your statement, "All variants of Muslim worship "the same God" too, you know. Amazingly enough, it appears to be the same one that Christians (of all persuasions) recognize." NOT SO!
The identity of "God" or "gods" is recognized by their character, actions and wisdom attributed to them. The Koran conflicts greatly with the New Testament view of the character, actions and wisdom held by Christians of God. i.e. Jesus, "care for your enemy and pray for your enemy" Koran Allah will assist you to destroy your enemy.

Pericles,

"Or that the Irish people would not have continued their own religious war, but in closer proximity to each other, if the six counties had not been carved out."

They didn't have a religious war, and the proof is in the pudding.
Since Northern Ireland has had a democratically elected Parliament (post the Accord) religious motivated violence, that is the violence instigated by the Loyalists has all but ceased as has political violence by Nationalists.

It's good that Ireland's English problem has come up though as Northern Ireland was/is the perfect example of the failure of multiculturalism in the modern world.

'All variants of Muslim worship "the same God" too, you know. Amazingly enough, it appears to be the same one that Christians (of all persuasions) recognize.

such blind ignorance Pericles. Or is it more deceit?

no doubt more excuses for beheading 82 year old woman in London my a recent Islamic convert. The thrid in London in six months. three cheers for Islamic immigration

You're talking about the murder of Palmira Silva, I can't find any articles identifying the killer as a Muslim convert, it sounds like he was mentally ill and flipped out for some reason.

Nup. Just reality, runner.

>>such blind ignorance Pericles. Or is it more deceit?<<

I am well aware that extremist Christians reject the notion that their God is the same one identified by both Muslims and Jews, and of the reams of horrified apologetics on the topic with which the internet is flooded. But the only visible difference in Christianity is the position of Jesus, not of God, in their patterns of worship.

Cardinal Timothy Dolan disagrees with you, by the way (Are you in a similar position to speak on behalf of your religion? I thought not). This is what happened last year in New York, when he spoke to a gathering that included Muslims:

"There he met with Muslims and other faith leaders. He told them, 'I thank God that this day has arrived. I thank you for your welcome, I thank you for making me feel like a friend and a member of a family.' Then he made this statement: 'You love God, we love God and he is the same God.'"

This kind of admission does not go down too well with those who would prefer to hate, and create religious warfare on behalf of their own particular view of God.

But it does have a certain ring of honesty about it, don't you think.

Pericles,

Regardless of what Cardinal Dolan said the God of the majority of Christians is different to the God of Islam and of Judaism.

The Christian God is a Trinity of three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit; nowhere in the Old Testament or in the Koran does such a concept of Three Persons in one God exist.
Both Jews and Muslims repudiate such an idea, in Christianity Christ is God, in Islam he is another prophet and in Judaism a criminal.

Further more in Christianity, Mary is the mother of God, in Islam, she is Miriam, mother of a prophet and is as nothing in Judaism.

So all due respect to Cardinal Tim but he was speaking politically.

'But it does have a certain ring of honesty about it, don't you think. '

Not really Pericles just allows 'regeressives 'like yourself to find someone backing your narrative rather than facing the truth.

From research by Rev Gordon Moyes A.C. B.A., D.D., Litt.D., LL.D., FRGS, FAIM , FAICD, MACE. [
Extracts]

In many countries of the world, massive mosques are being built with petro-dollars from Middle Eastern countries. Some are being built in communities with a very small number of Muslims. The point however, is not to provide a prayer house for the locals, but to make a statement to the nation about the inevitable victory of Islam over the forces of the West.

For example, Murfreesboro, a city in the heart of Rutherford County Tennessee, USA. Rutherford County, has just over 100,000 residents. There are only 200 to 300 Muslim families living in the country. So who is paying for this massive compound? How many millions of dollars will “45 active members” be coming up with – and where is all this money coming from and why is it so big?

Why is it that after 9/11, mosque construction in America has nearly doubled, when Muslims make up just 1% of the population. The “Ground Zero” mosque, already part opened, is massive in spite of strong anti-mosque public opinion. It will be larger than the Marseille mega mosque, the Murfreesboro mega mosque and the London mega mosque.


At its current size the Stockholm mega mosque had already managed to feature sermons in support of Islamic terrorism and serve as a recruitment centre for Al-Qaeda. In yet another common pattern of mega mosques, the Stockholm mega mosque was funded primarily by Sheikh Zayed, the ruler of the United Arab Emirates. The Cologne mega mosque was primarily funded by Turkey’s Islamist government.

The Copenhagen mega mosque with a capacity of 3,000 which is being financed by Iran. Iran has already constructed another mega mosque in Helsinki and has similar plans all across Europe and the world. The Sunnis are getting their own Copenhagen mega mosque funded by Saudi Arabia. This will involve an architectural “mountain” across from the University of Copenhagen topped by two minarets, transforming the Sunni-Shiite rivalry into a competition to create the biggest Islamist monolith

Cont:
In Argentina, the Government has given 7.5 acres of public land to build the King Fahd Islamic Cultural Centre, the largest mosque in Latin America. It overshadows the Caracas mega mosque in Venezuela which has a capacity of 3,500. Both mega mosques were built by the Saudi royal family.
But so long as there’s oil money fuelling the projects then the mega mosques will keep on growing.

From Markham in Canada down to New York City, and from the West Midlands in the United Kingdom to Sydney, Australia, cities around the world are facing the same threats to their communities. In Islamic doctrine, every mosque is instructed to be based upon the original mosque in Medina, where Muhammad originally in the 7th century set up his religious- political doctrine of social control, and the mosque is a place of government, it is a place where treaties are made, death sentences are passed, armies are blessed and dispatched, it is primarily about political control and it is very much used as a tool of advance. Ever since mosques have been erected as signs of Muslim conquest.

The word “mosque” is strategically omitted during the application process to local government authorities.: A planning application gets submitted for a mosque in an area, and it will never be called a ‘mosque.’ It will be called a community centre; an inter- faith centre; a public community, harmony-building outreach centre, all designed to placate local citizens

That's your opinion, Is Mise, which is of course your absolute right to express.

>>Regardless of what Cardinal Dolan said the God of the majority of Christians is different to the God of Islam and of Judaism... So all due respect to Cardinal Tim but he was speaking politically.<<

But your "respect" for Cardinal Tim does not extend, it would appear, to his status within the Christian church.

And you're just clutching at straws, runner.

>>Not really Pericles just allows 'regeressives 'like yourself to find someone backing your narrative rather than facing the truth.<<

Which truth are you talking about? Even Jesus, it would appear, disagreed with Is Mise on trinitarianism:

"And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" Mark 12: 28-29

Just the one, you will notice.

So it seems more than likely, given the fascinating history of the early days of the Christian church, and its multitude of competing factions, that trinitarianism itself is nothing more than just another political stance.

Josephus' idea is that you can tell the difference between the various versions of God by the "character, actions and wisdom attributed to them".

No wonder you Christians want to abrogate the violent, vengeful and vindictive God of the Old Testament. The Jewish God, that is. Which is a little difficult, when Jesus' God was also the God of the Jews, was it not.

Sounds very much like another political accommodation to me.

But then, what is an atheist to think, when faced with the vastly differing assertions of a) a senior authority in the Roman Catholic church, and b) a couple of random religionists on a message board in Australia.

Where are the posters who railed against Rolf Harris?

<Rotherham child sex scandal resulted in 100 babies as abuse victim reveals she fell pregnant TWICE
Aug 30, 2014 23:00 By Simon Wright
One disgusted mum in her 30s told the Sunday Mirror: "I was groomed and abused, but the police took no action”

Vile: The abuse continued over a 16 year period
Teenage girls raped in the Rotherham child sex abuse scandal gave birth to more than 100 babies.

Scores more children as young as 13 ­miscarried or were forced to have abortions after attacks by Asian gangs on 1,400 girls.>

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rotherham-child-sex-scandal-resulted-4137542

One victim, who got ­pregnant TWICE to the same attacker, said: “I was groomed and abused, but the police took no action.”

The vulnerable youngster had an abortion at just 14 when her abuser threatened to have her killed if she gave birth to his baby.

Then he made her pregnant again just six months later – and allowed her to keep her child, but only if she became a Muslim...

Some babies were kept by their young mothers while many were forcibly adopted and are now themselves in the care system.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/rotherham-child-sex-scandal-resulted-4137542

Pericles,
I don’t eat white bread.

I’ve already said I do not hate anyone. Enough said.

It just might be that extreme secularism has created extreme Islam which I implied on the last line of my most recent post. If it is not enough that most Muslims already hold contempt for Jews and Christians, they have an even more negative view of Atheists. A “Clash of Civilisations” (Samuel Huntington). Again, how can we a religious war when we have a secular country.

Many Muslims are unable to come to terms with our liberties. They have a different mentality.

I have come across an excellent interview by an Egyptian Jesuit scholar on Islam which is highly convincing as it makes complete sense. It was sent to me by an Aussie Middle Eastern friend. Atheist fundamentalists like yourself would not like it. It would be a good topic for a new thread. But as I am time poor I know I will not be able to keep pace with postings. I am not sure whether to put the link here on this thread.

Re comparing apples with oranges just like Jesus and Mohamed (or apples with a durian):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

It suspiciously seems to be dominated by Islamic groups ya think? Please name a terrorist group other than an Islamic one who will attack anyone for the sole reason that they are different to them, and rear their ugly head in any country in the world and are always full of surprises? This my friend, is terrorism like no other and are the champions of terrorism which would indicate that they do indeed have a stronghold on terrorism.

Yes, every culture has bad elements and double standards, just different degrees. You can’t be that blind, and black and white thinking, are you? But then you are fundamentalist.

Japan has a special policy for limitations of Muslims entering their country. The Vatican even has special warnings for Western women marrying Muslim men and living in the Middle East as there is no point of return unless they make a very uneasy escape.

Trinitarianism may be but a political stance but it is a stance that is held by the majority of Christians and thus makes the God of the Christians different to the God of Islam and the God of Judaism.

That is what you were talking about, Pericles, not the perceptions of early Christians but the perceptions of today.

My statement above is a logical statement, if you wish to refute it then do so logically.

Another very good link about Rotherham:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/rotherham-s-collaborators_804406.html?nopager=1

"Every agency contributed to silencing the whistleblowers and abandoning the girls. Parents who acted to protect their daughters were ignored, harassed, even fined and arrested. Rotherham Council ignored their pleas and continued to give contracts to the taxi firms whose owners and drivers were the perpetrators, and in whose cars no teenager in town would ever willingly travel."

The problem is that issue is not restricted to Rotherham, UK, 2006 or 2013. It happens everywhere that Muslim communities meet Western culture, to one degree or another. It happens where multiculturism puts a minority (non-western) culture beyond criticism. It happens because Islam and western values are very different. It happens because of the misogynist teachings of the quran and hadith -- and practiced in Islamic societies. How can people really expect Muslims to integrate when the Quran teaches that infidels are inferior, evil people? How can you expect them to really accept western culture when they learn in the mosque and quran that Islam has its own law, economic and social systems. Which is better to a Muslim? the flawed systems of the infidels or the perfect law and rules of Allah?

To accept Islam is to reject Western values. To say otherwise is dishonest. To accept Islam is to accept different moral standards for different people, which translates to high standards demanded of non-Muslims but only silly rules and rituals of Muslims (and blind, mindless faith).

Oh yes, by the way, according to the perfect Quran, Mary is a part of the Trinity (Surah 5:116). It gets worse, it also said the jews believe that Ezra is the son of Jehovah. Now that is perfection, even if news to rabbis and jews.

I see no reason to believe that our leaders have learned anything from the Rotherham scandal or will change their ways. They will continue to let a people that not only do not accept our values, but even cause mischief and suffering, live amongst us and destroy our societies. We are doomed.

This is getting very confusing, Is Mise.

>>Trinitarianism may be but a political stance but it is a stance that is held by the majority of Christians<<

If Christianity is a political doctrine, then I can readily accept that Cardinal Dolan was making a political statement when he said "we love God and he is the same God". But I fail to see how that makes his declaration any less true. Unless of course you equate "political statement" with "lying through his teeth", which although cynical, is at some level at least highly credible.

This is less confusing, though.

>>...it is a stance that is held by the majority of Christians and thus makes the God of the Christians different to the God of Islam and the God of Judaism<<

This underlines the basic problem with religions - any religion. It says "because I believe it, it must be true". The rationality of the belief itself is never questioned, and the faith itself is maintained regardless of any evidence that might cause doubt in the believer. It says "God is defined by my beliefs", which apart from being an entirely unhelpful distinction, and the reason why it is impossible to reconcile, leads you to the inescapable conclusion that the God of the Protestants is different to the God of the Catholics. The logic is identical, after all.

And Constance, I guess you might be referring to Samir Khalil Samir...

>>I have come across an excellent interview by an Egyptian Jesuit scholar on Islam which is highly convincing as it makes complete sense... Atheist fundamentalists like yourself would not like it.<<

If we are talking here about his reaction to Evangelii Gaudium, he says exactly what I would expect a Jesuit scholar to say.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1350689?eng=y

He was appalled to hear the Pope say of Muslims "together with us they adore the one, merciful God, who will judge humanity on the last day", and had to quickly put it into another context. The consummate spin-doctor reaction.

Just propaganda. Just politics.

Pericles,
I am a Christian who does not believe in a Trinity for God is One Spirit revealed in character, actions, and wisdom. God is not spatial or human, but is revealed in the character, actions and wisdom expressed in Christ Jesus. Those that believe in three persons in a Godhead hold to a 1700 year old Roman Catholic Nicaea creed that did not differentiate between the physical created and the spiritual. They place the physicality of Jesus into an eternal dimension, Jesus body was a very human mortal creature. However all that said. Christians should all agree on the character, actions and wisdom of Jesus, that it expressed the heart of God to our World. Care for the sick, raise the fallen, free those captive by injustice or abuse, reconcile the sinner, forgive the repentant, demonstrate care for an enemy..

Pericles,
You don't get it do you?
As the Christian's definition of their God is different to the Muslim's definition and the Jew's definition then they cannot all be worshiping the same God.

Regardless of the truth or otherwise of the existence of God and regardless of Cardinal Dolan's statement, (his God is a trinitarian one [three-in-one]), the three faiths do not worship the same God.

This story is an example of why the West has a problem and why we are doomed.
Dan Hodges (UK), Leftist columnist and ex-labor leader, writes…
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100284741/britains-muslims-are-failing-to-integrate-we-need-to-find-out-why/

…We can’t carry on like this. We just can’t…. Something is broken. Terribly broken. We are now being confronted on a monthly basis with fresh evidence of our failure – and it is a collective failure – to successfully integrate the British Muslim community within British society.
,,,Each time one of these fresh abuses comes to light we undergo the same ritual. A report will be issued, and a sombre statement read out in the House of Commons. We will be stunned by what is revealed, and say to ourselves “How can this have happened?

,,,It was only a relatively small number of men responsible for the Rotherham rapes. But the Muslim community as a whole created the environment that allowed the abuse to continue.

,,,, I don’t know why we have a specific problem of Muslim integration. I’m not sure anyone does. Britain’s Muslims are failing to integrate. We need to find out why

End of quotes.

The facts are right, but somehow these people can’t link A to B. Hodges knows there is a serious problem but after a generation of Muslim immigration and multicultural indoctrination he and other Western elites have no idea of the “why” of the problem. Note that he characterizes the problem as “our failure”, a “we” issue, not a “they” issue. If only we do something, all will be better…

Our leaders are clueless. They will blame anybody expect the perpetrators of evil. They are unwilling to accept that a religious-based nonwestern culture teaches hate and violence. So they amuse themselves in a rhetorical masturbation that asks why without any desire to uncover answers that are anathema to those elites. And so the charade goes on and we sink lower and closer to the abyss.

Mr Hodges, may I answer your question? ...because Islam teaches hate, discrimination and violence against non-Muslims. Because the values of Islam are incompatible with those of Western civilization. Duhhhh

People will switch back and forth between two contradictory positions with the greatest of ease when defending an untenable belief, and this thread appears to be no exception.

When confronted with the fact that over 4000 gods have been invented since the birth of religion, a religious pluralism is often embraced and it is claimed that they’re all the same god (usually the Abrahamic god) revealing themselves to different cultures in different ways. Then, when someone points out that Allah and Yahweh are the same god, a religious exclusivism is adopted and suddenly they’re not the same anymore.

There’s ‘different gods’, and then there’s ‘different beliefs about a god’. Thor and Yahweh are different gods; Yahweh and Allah are the same god (i.e. the Abrahamic god). Anyone who claims that Christians and Muslims believe in different gods, simply because they believe different things about that god, must then rationally determine the point at which a god becomes two. How many beliefs must differ before a god believed in by two populations is no longer the same god?

Following the logic of some here, there are actually billions of gods being worshipped on this planet, not just thousands. Each individual has their own specific beliefs about who god is and what they want, and funnily enough, they always seem to agree with the believer.

Oh, but I think I do, Is Mise.

>>Pericles, You don't get it do you? As the Christian's definition of their God is different to the Muslim's definition and the Jew's definition then they cannot all be worshiping the same God.<<

That theory suggests that there are as many Gods as there are definitions. Which is, of course, one of the aspects of religion that as an atheist, I have the most extreme difficulty crediting to otherwise intelligent and articulate people.

But there are also some interesting internal contradictions inherent in your assertion that the Jewish God, the God of Abraham, is not the same God that makes an appearance in the New Testament. According to Matthew, Jesus told the Sadducees:

"...have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?"

Which rather echoes Moses' burning bush discussion:

"God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses... I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

Same God, or different?

You now have God himself, Jesus himself, the Pope and Cardinal Timothy Dolan, all disagreeing with your version of God.

Which is of course quite ok, because as far as you are concerned, that is their definition, not yours, or Constance's or Josephus', and therefore a different God entirely.

Such a logical challenge is always going to cause problems, when you rely upon your imagination to determine what is real, and what is not.

Pericles,

Regardless of who says what, to the Christians Christ is God, to the Muslims he is a great prophet and to the Jews he is an ordinary human being who got it wrong.
It seems to me that they don't all worship the same God.

In Islam and Judaism to say that Christ is God and is the equal of Allah/God is blasphemy and in Islam, even today, is punishable by death.

Kactuz,
No you're wrong, it's very much a "we issue", the behaviour of non Whites is reflected in the types of societies they create, everyone knows what to expect from Third World immigration including the social justice warriors, communists and arts graduates who populate the bureaucracies in western countries.
The Rotherham scandal only became scandalous because the people tasked with protecting these children chose to cover their own arses or put ideology above the law and their responsibilities as public servants. The UK has mandatory reporting of child abuse, whistleblower protections and plenty of legal mechanisms in place to nip this sort of things in the bud.
This whole crisis could have been averted if the social workers and the Police had done their jobs, the situation could have been dealt with using restraining orders, ASBO'S, the tax laws and the immigration system.
What's the lesson here? Social Justice/Political Correctness and Anti Racism have no place in a multicultural society.

Journalists are scum, that's the lesson we can learn from the press coverage of this sex abuse scandal, they are social justice activists first and objective reporters last, they all need to meet up with the "Three Beatles" of ISIS and learn what real men think of SJW's.
http://therightstuff.biz/2014/09/06/rotherham-and-the-progressive-narrative/

Is Mise - - "punishable by death". Islam does not say that. It's merely an "interpretation" that's practiced by backward, ancient style fundamentalists who would comprise no more than .00001% of the world's Muslims.

mollieme,
No it's about 40% of Muslims who think that way according to polls taken both in the West and Islamic societies.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/opinion-polls.htm

Jay of Melbourne, that site is a far right wing anti Muslim site, setup specifically to degrade Islam and Muslims whenever possible. They do it under the "pretense" of being moderate (they have several other websites under different names that lambast homosexuals, abortion, Judaism and the democratic party in the USA) --- their websites are just as bad and evil as the fundamentalist Muslims and fundamentalist Christians. That website was thoroughly discredited a very long time ago, and of course all the so called polls on their site, many of which are fake and/or manipulated, give a result that "they" want.

The true believers and blind worshipers of that website have been duly brainwashed, just like the fundie Christians and Muslims.

I'll be back in 2 weeks to contribute further to this thread, as I'll be overseas on holidays.

Mollieme,
So you trust your "intuition" rather than surveys conducted by Muslims in Islamic states, that site merely compiled them and why do you trust pro Islamic sources to tell the truth and not anti Islamic ones? Aren't you interested in both sides of the story?
This just in;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2746885/Jihadist-flag-goes-auction-Liverpool-mosque-Western-Sydney-Teen-posts-hate-fueled-photos-featuring-IS-flag.html#ixzz3CgGAFvKK

Hi Jay of Melbourne,

I have to catch a plane, so I have no time. You didn't read my post. Those so called surveys have been manipulated by that far right wing website you linked to. The results are fake. They have been discredited a long time ago. Just like that website has been thoroughly discredited a long time ago. It's a fundamentalist, right wing, anti Muslim website. That website is just as fundamentalist and manipulating as fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity.

But I guess true believers like you will just keep on believing in what's on such websites, no matter what.

Pericles,

For a start, in your debate with Is Mise, you didn’t have to include me along with Josephus as I never gave any definition of God. Where did you get that from? Scrounging for numbers for your argument against Is Mise. Just face it a lot of atheists are never going to understand any religious concepts as it is just not in their mind matter. Give up!

And here we go, Jesuit scholary spin now? Ha! You’re not serious enough to discuss anything which opposes your own ideals or thinking.
Fr Samir Khalil Samir studied under Ratzinger who is NOT a Jesuit. What on earth would he have to gain spreading propaganda, especially being a native of the middle east.

Why on earth would he want to be debating his own team? You think he is doing it for kicks.

I suppose the Jesuit Refugee Service is full of spin too - those looking after the mainly Moslems in the asylum seeker case load. May as well throw in George Lemaitre - was he also a Jesuit propagandist too?

One of the most respected scholars of Hinduism who happens to be a Jesuit:
http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/spiritofthings/hinduism/4254658

Tell me what you know about Jesuit scholars?

You do remember what happened when Pope Benedict was having a civilised discussion in an obscure university in Germany when he cited an historical conversation with a pope and a Muslim leader?

Have you ever heard of diplomacy? Scholars do not do diplomacy as it is not their job to do so. For world leaders - yes.

There's a reason for that, Constance.

>>Just face it a lot of atheists are never going to understand any religious concepts as it is just not in their mind matter.<<

And we are most grateful that our "mind matter", whatever that might be, does not contain such nonsense.

But you are simply blustering, as you are not quite sure how to respond.

>>And here we go, Jesuit scholary spin now? Ha! You’re not serious enough to discuss anything which opposes your own ideals or thinking.<<

I most certainly am. But it would appear that you are not.

You are, it would seem, suggesting that Samir Khalil Samir knows more of the Pope's mind than the Pope, and did a little bit of clarification. Whereas I saw that he was concerned that a plainly stated position might be understood as such by ordinary people, and felt the need to spin an alternate narrative.

>>Fr Samir Khalil Samir studied under Ratzinger who is NOT a Jesuit.<<

But Samir Khalil Samir is a Jesuit, is he not?

>>Tell me what you know about Jesuit scholars?<<

As far as I am aware, they dedicate themselves to an extreme form of evangelism, using a form of überscholarship to impress the gullible. At one point in their history, they were even banned by a Pope - presumably for being intolerable smartarses. If I am right, then Samir Khalil Samir's attempt to re-colour the Pope's "same God" statements would be very much in keeping with their position as arch-propagandists.

Quite understandable, in the circumstances.

Pericles,

Care to comment on the success, or lack thereof, of multiculturalism in Northern Ireland?

"MULTI CULT" means just that people with different views of reality including God. Muslims who want a Caliphate will never accommodate multiculturalism.

A so called Moderate Muslim Mosque in Sydney yesterday auctioned the flag carried by the terrorists in Syria Iraq to raise funds.

Jay, of course you are right, immigration is a “we” issue. All of us are affected not only by our decisions and attitude on this matter, but also by those around us. In a sense there is no “they” issue in the social realm.

This Rotherham crisis may have been averted if social workers and police had done their jobs, but there is more to it. This Rotherham crisis would also have been averted if the UK had not opened its doors to a people whose values are not those generally associated with Western Civilization.

Jay, have you ever read the Quran and hadith? The level of hate for non-Muslims and scorn for women is such that it cannot be ignored and certainly can be linked to the treatment of minorities, women and yes, the girls of Rotherham. The misogyny in Islam started with Mohammad and only got worse, including such things as wife beatings, statements that women are stupid, evil, like dogs, unworthy to lick the puss off their husbands’ bodies – and much more. It is not for nothing that Aisha (Mohammed’s child wife) wrote: “I never saw women so abused as the wives of the believers” – and these were the people Muslims claim to be the best ever.

So you take that cold, cruel Rotherham Muslim mentality, add to it the decadence and family breakdown of Western civilization and the corrupt, hypocritical mentality of political correctness, and presto , you have not one Rotherham, but hundreds just like it all over Europe and abroad – yesterday, today and tomorrow.

Nothing has changed nor will it. Editorials will be written, authorities will wring their hands, and little girls will continue to be abused – particularly by Muslims.

I see your “Journalists are scum” and I put my “Politicians are scum” chips next to it. If you up the ante with “Academics are scum”, I will reply with “clergy are scum” until the chips are piled to the ceiling on the table.

Oh darn it, I lost my bomb that I was going to throw at the archduke..

An interesting request, Is Mise.

>>Pericles, Care to comment on the success, or lack thereof, of multiculturalism in Northern Ireland?<<

There have been many studies of multiculturalism in poet-Accord Northern Ireland. Some are quite good. This is one of the more comprehensive reports on the underlying issues:

https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/3811

"This dissertation is concerned with the emergence of multicultural agendas in Northern Ireland; a society traditionally divided along sectarian lines".

The country makes an interesting case study, having been plagued by conflict over religious differences for decades, and then moving straight into a more open society through significant immigration. The gist of the report is that the same bigotry that used to be contained in the Protestant/Catholic divide, has translated quite smoothly into racial and cultural differences. Having had so much practice at it, it would appear that it comes quite naturally to them.

This one is also worth a glance.

http://www.postcolonialweb.org/poldiscourse/casablanca/savaric2.html

"Multiculturalism is not in itself problematic, what is problematic is the politicisation of cultural differences."

Which is, of course, exactly what we are seeing being attempted here on this thread. Rotherham itself, and the despicable acts now exposed there, are going through the same process, becoming grist to the monoculturalist mill. The complete failure of their social services is also being dragged into the front line, changing its nature from blind human incompetence and fear, into an exemplar of total societal failure.

A story that frankly, I don't buy.

Oops. That was of course, post-Accord Northern Ireland. No poets, anywhere.

Mollieme,

Nothing degrades Muslims more than the Quran and hadith, except maybe the actions of Muslims. I don’t do anti-Muslim sites because I don’t need to. I have read almost all the relevant Islamic literature, and I can make my own judgments.

There is nothing wrong with degrading an ideology that teaches hate, discrimination, slander and violence toward others. Do you have a problem with that statement?

Oh yes, Muslims are so good at discussions and debate that they silence any criticism so they won’t have to think about their beliefs. Well, islam is perfect, so anything that indicates otherwise must the wrong, evil, misunderstood, bad translation, only some misguided Muslims, and (insert excuse here).

The “Islam / Quran is perfect attitude” is a trap that captures the Muslim mind. If this is true, then certainly islam is the one, perfect, wonderful, supreme (add superlative here) religion – but if there are lies, inconsistencies, errors and malevolent dogma in it, then it cannot be true. It is an “all or nothing” proposition so a Muslim cannot accept that islam is wrong, so they close their minds and defend the undefensible with silly excuses and by blaming others. For example, we certainly agree that ISIS, Al-Queda, Boko-haram all are evil yet they quote the Quran just fine, thank you. How could a perfect book be so misunderstood? The Quran itself says it is simple, easy to understand (Surah 8). Obviously it is not very perfect if it is the inspiration for much of the evil in Muslim societies in 50+ countries. I have read the Quran and you can’t even get a decent “thou shalt not kill” out of it. Perhaps you have noticed that the actions of ISIS terrorists are mirrored by verses in the Quran and the Sunnah of islam’s prophet. They didn’t just start beheading people because they didn’t like peoples’ haircuts – maybe the ‘strike their necks” verses (plural) has something to do with it.

Anyway, have a good trip and stay away from Malaysian Airlines

Kactuz, you said "There is nothing wrong with degrading an ideology that teaches hate, discrimination, slander and violence towards others".

Thanks for that statement regarding Christianity Kactuz. It's so good to know you support degrading Christianity, after all it has a notorious history throughout the ages of hate, discrimination, slander and violence. Just look at the Christianity witch burnings in the name of their God across Europe, yep over 200 years of Christians murdering multiple thousands of people accused of witchcraft. And let's not forget their God who murdered thousands of innocent little Egyptian babies (it's all in the bible so it must be true). How about all those Christianity victims in the Inquisition, thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people murdered and tortured. The Franciscans helped organise the Nazi genocide in Croatia. Currently Christianity is still, even to this very day, burning to death and torturing witches in some regions of Africa. This is merely the tip of the iceburg, you could fill a book 100 times the size of the bible, about Christianity violence throughout the ages. It's all been factually documented in factual history. So let's go out and degrade Christianity.

Kactuz, do you have a problem with that statement?

Angus., No, of course not. Why should I have a problem? A statement is merely a declarative sentence that is either true or false (Wikipedia). Having been banned and censored repeatedly, I find those abhorrent. Unlike so many of our leaders, intellectuals, liberals and Muslims, I don’t fear free speech. If I can’t argue a point, I am either ignorant or wrong.

So now what? So what is your point? That Christianity is as evil as Islam? That all religions are bad? That history is a great field of study?

Christians have never threatened me or my family, the same for Buddhists, Hindus, atheists and spaghetti people. I can’t say that about your friends, the Muslims. I doubt there is a church in the world that I could walk into with a sign saying “The Bible says that Jehovah killed innocent thousands of Egyptian babies” (True, book of Exodus) and not walk out alive. Now, how many mosques would I walk out of alive if I were to hold a sign “Mohammed and his men killed thousands of innocent non-Muslim men women and children” (equally true). That is the difference.

This is the 21st Century, Angus, to put any other religion today at the same level as Islam requires a very disturbed, biased mind.

Oh BTW, the Pope has apologized for the inquisition and crusades and the Catholic Church is paying restitution for its horrible crimes against children. Could you kindly provide a link to an Islamic site apologizing for the hate and violence in the Quran, or condemning the evil deeds of Mr. “I am made victorious with Terror” Mohammed? That is the difference.

The teachings of Christ in the New Testament never gave sanction of the historical atrocities committed by persons supposed to be Christian.

The Koran clearly supports the killing of Christians and Jews, which is now authorizing ISIL for their actions. Clearly the New Testament and the Koran was not inspired by the same God.

ISIL associate Christianity as an American or Western thing, yet the Christian apostles in the first century established Churches in the area of Iraq. This was long before Mohamed or America was even thought of.

Pericles,
So you are saying more that 84% of the world population on earth are full of nonsense from black American gospel singers to the spiritual Tibetans and nuns treating aids patients. It must be maddeningly complicated and stubbornly irritating to just not get it. Well your deficiency and poor take on the human condition isn’t my problem but continue on shaking your fist at the sky fairies and especially those pesky Jesuits.

"Not sure how to respond" to what? And? You give me flakey reactions. I said, I never made any comment on your God debate and you know that or you are just confused. You’re very slippery. What am I boasting about? I don’t possess the same self regard as yourself and you must be very afraid of truth.

You are a master of deflections because you are going off the topic of the thread which was your intention all along.

You can't be serious and your are totally uninformed of Islam doctrine and choose to remain ignorant and retort with puerile dismissals and your own prejudice against Christianity. "Smart arses"! So, who exactly are the smart ones?

You haven’t even kept up with history - the days of missionary work were over years ago.

Your contempt and flippancy just shows your obtuseness and deception.
You just “don’t buy” anything outside your own ideals and ignorance.

Cont...

.....Cont.
Pericles,

Let’s get back to that smart arse Jesuit, Georges Lemaitre.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre
Monseigneur Georges Henri Joseph Édouard Lemaître, (French: [&#658;&#596;&#641;&#658;&#601; l&#601;m&#603;t&#641;] ( listen); 17 July 1894 – 20 June 1966) was a Belgian Jesuit priest, astronomer and professor of physics at the French section of the Catholic University of Louvain.[1] He was the first known academic to propose the theory of the expansion of the universe, widely misattributed to Edwin Hubble.[2][3] He was also the first to derive what is now known as Hubble's law and made the first estimation of what is now called the Hubble constant, which he published in 1927, two years before Hubble's article.[4][5][6][7] Lemaître also proposed what became known as the Big Bang theory of the origin of the Universe, which he called his "hypothesis of the primeval atom" or the "Cosmic Egg".

And smart arse Jesuit, Athanasius Kircher (1601-1680), German who in his Scrutinium Pestis of 1658 he noted the presence of "little worms" or "animalcules" in the blood, and concluded that the disease was caused by micro-organisms. This is antecedent to germ theory.

Just to name only two of the many smart arse Jesuits who have contributed to science.

Not to mention the Jesuit astronomy observatories in the Vatican and Arizona. I guess they’re just looking for God or new territory for evangelising hey, Peri.

You just hate anything smarter than yourself as you are a consummate cynic which shows in all your posts on any subject including the people with the smarts on Islam. With your high self regard, you have to disagree with everyone.

I had no intention of defending Jesuits, if it wasn’t for your obstinacy and adversity to empirical evidence and substance.

That’s enough of your deviation, and I won't be responding to you anymore.

Back to the real topic.

Here is an extensive interview with an Egyptian Jesuit scholar on Islam and gives several reasons for Islamic violence and ISIS. His analysis makes a lot of sense:

‘What They Are Doing Is Diabolical’
http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/father-samir-on-isis-what-they-are-doing-is-diabolical/%23ixzz3CCHeuFxw#.VAboCz0ayc0

Reform, reform, reform, education.........

Talking of diversions, Constance...

>>Pericles, So you are saying more that 84% of the world population on earth are full of nonsense from black American gospel singers to the spiritual Tibetans and nuns treating aids patients. It must be maddeningly complicated and stubbornly irritating to just not get it.<<

It seems to me, if I understand this correctly, that you are lumping all the different religions together, in order to make up 84% of the world's population who believe in some kind of divine being.

Which would be extremely impressive - although still not probative - if they all believed in the same deity. But they clearly don't. And it is quite reasonable to conclude that since they cannot all be right, it is quite possible that they are all of them entirely wrong.

>>Well your deficiency and poor take on the human condition isn’t my problem but continue on shaking your fist at the sky fairies and especially those pesky Jesuits<<

I believe it was you who introduced Jesuits into the discussion. Forgive me for not according them the same reverence that you do, but as a group I find them predominantly sophists. As in sophistry, that is.

>>Just to name only two of the many smart arse Jesuits who have contributed to science.<<

I suspect they would have been equally clever if they had been atheists.

Thanks for confirming I was right about your referring to the words of Samir Khalil Samir. And that is a very interesting interview, with which I have hardly a single quibble. His description of the Islamic mentality has so many parallels with Christian history - I'm talking seven hundred-plus years back, when it was almost indistinguishable from superstition among uneducated people - it is scary.

As you say, "Reform, reform, reform, education..."

But it will take a few hundred years, just as it did with Christianity.

I headd an ISIL recruiter say last night they have over 2 billion members. Does that mean most moderate Muslims are deceived and deceive of their real agenda.

Multiculturalism is not a problem, it's Muslims that are the problem, not all, but when you are speaking of terrorism, it only takes one.

I say this because even their own so called leaders are unable to control the hate that festers within their faith and, while not all Muslims are a problem, this IS situation has proven beyond doubt that it's not the people, it's their beliefs that are the problem and, given even they (their leaders) can't control their own, the faith/religion, call it what you like, should be banned from all non Muslim countries.

At least then multiculturalism can be a large part of many societies without being tarnished by the selected few.

So in fairness, perhaps the thread should be called , .....the price we pay for muslimism.

Pericles,

"Love thy neighbour as thyself" has been a precept of Christianity for nigh on two thousand years and in spite of that some Christians have gone off the rails.
What chance do Muslims have when such a concept is foreign to their religion?

Is Mise.....What chance do Muslims have when such a concept is foreign to their religion?

I would say every chance in the world, provided they stay in their one country or, they leave their garbage behind when they enter ours, or any other country for that matter.

I am not telling them they can't be Muslims, as all I'm suggesting is that they just can't be Muslims here. Not in our peace loving nation, because let's face it, we've tried their way (for their leaders to clean up their act) and it's failed, so it time for them to either leave their beliefs behind them, or leave themselves. It's their choice where I come from.

Let's face it, when so called moderate Muslims come here and start their families here, only to see their off spring leave to fight for the likes of the IS, what more proof do we need that multiculturalism is a failure when it comes to these people (in general)

Dear rehctub,

Why are you blaming multiculturalism on terrorism.
ISIS is not a Muslim organisation - it is a
terrorist organisation and even US President Barack
Obama and other leaders - made that quite clear.

As far as Australiam Muslims are concerned - what is the
percentage of the total Muslim population here in Australia
that are travelling overseas to fight wars. Blaming
multiculturalism and Muslims on the few alienated and
misguided people who are travelling overseas is simply
not a valid argument.

Meanwhile, hack in Rotherham,

THURSDAY 11 SEPTEMBER 2014 UK
Rotherham child exploitation still 'on industrial scale'

Children in Rotherham continue to be sexually exploited "on an industrial scale", South Yorkshire Police and Crime Commissioner Shaun Wright says as he faces calls to resign at a public meeting...
'Industrial scale'
He told the meeting that the sexual exploitation of children was still happening at the same scale as identified in the report, saying it is "a very difficult and complex issue to prevent".

"I have referred to the numbers, the 1,400 evidenced by Professor Jay, clearly that's exploitation on an industrial scale in my view," he said.

"But if you look at the referrals and the investigations that have taken place then, yes, it does appear that it is still at that level across Rotherham and indeed across South Yorkshire.>

http://tinyurl.com/Rotherham-channel-4

and

<Rotherham child abuse: the ethnic dimension

Despite victims' description of most of their abusers as "Asian", ethnicity was a factor that was not actively tackled by the authorities in Rotherham where over 1,400 children were subject to abuse.

Professor Alexis Jay's report into child sexual exploitation (CSE) in Rotherham from 1997-2013, states that the issue of race, regardless of ethnic group, should be tackled as an absolute priority if it is known to be a significant factor in the criminal activity of organised abuse in any local community.

But, her report concludes: "There was little evidence of such action being taken in Rotherham in the earlier years."

So why not?

The report noted: "Councillors can play an effective role in this, especially those representing the communities in question, but only if they act as facilitators of communication rather than barriers to it. One senior officer suggested that some influential Pakistani-heritage councillors in Rotherham had acted as barriers.">

Foxy, Obama is no more an expert on Islam than Bush. Both tell us that Islam is a religion of peace -- too bad that the people of Syria, Iraq, Lybia, Afghantistan, Pakistan and so many others didn't get the message.

ISIS would beg to differ on not being a Muslim organisation - After all, they quote the quran, they follow the hadith, they consider Mohammed to be their great example - and do as he did.

Kindly provide verses that support your position, that ISIS is not Islamic.

As far as Australian Muslims are concerned - few have gone over seas, but all Australian Muslims accept the same Quran and hadith that ISIS uses as a basis for its actions.

I don't blame Austalian Muslims for the actions of a few "alienated and misguided" Muslims overseas, I blame all Muslims for the mindless, blind, uncritical acceptance of a dogma that teaches hate and violence. I blame Muslims for not asking simple questions like why violence comes so easy to Islam or why something so perfect as the quran (according to Muslims) is so easily misunderstood, or maybe it is not misunderstood.

Do you ever wonder why so many Muslims want to live among those horrible infidels? What is it..... Why...

Think, Foxy, think!

Sorry Foxy, JUST ONE is one too many for mine.

Dear Kactuz,

ISIS has been designated as a foreign terrorist
organisation in the United States, the UK, Australia,
Canada, Indonesia and Saudi Arabia, to name just a
few and it has been described by the United Nations as
well as Western and Middle Eastern media as a terrorist
group and as a fundamentalist and extremist organisation.
ISIS is the successor of Al-Qaeda. To blame all Muslims
for this terrorist, extremist organisation is not
something that I am willing to do. Instead of telling me
to "think," may I politely suggest you do precisely that
instead of continue to argue with sweeping statements
and unreasonable assertions in lumping all Muslims into
the same group as these extremists.

Dear Rehctub,

I can understand you finding it distressing that there are
a small minority who want to get involved in overseas
wars - however, there will always be mercenaries, and others,
who will get involved in overseas conflicts - be it in
Israel, Ireland, Palestine, or elsewhere. That doesn't mean
that we have to blame others living peacefully in this
country for the actions of a minority.

cont'd ...

Dear Rehctub,

According to an article in The Age, Saturdy, Sept. 13
2014 -

There are about 2500 foreign citizens from more than 60
countries enlisted in the Israeli Defence Force, of which
it is believed 100 are Australians.

It is believed 60 Australians are fighting with ISIS,
which is classified in Australia as a terrorist organisation.

The Age article points out that Australians have a history
of taking up arms abroad. In the 1930s, Spanish Australians
fought on both sides of the Spanish Civil War and, in the 1990s,
Australians fought for Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Albania,
Slovenia, and Macedonia in the Yugoslav wars.

Jewish Australians have fought in all of Israel's wars from
1948 onwards.

You need not concern yourself however, dear Rehctub,
as it looks like the government is to toughen laws
preventing Australians fighting in Syria and Iraq from
returning home. Proposed counter-terrorism legislation
would make it easier to identify and charge and prosecute
people who have engaged in terrorist activities overseas
and would also make it an offence to travel without a
valid reason to an area designated by intelligence agencies.

This would include the 60 Australians who are fighting with
ISIS, which is classified in Australia as a terrorist
organisation.

I trust that this will re-assure you just a little.

The following link should be read by
those blaming multiculturalism for
the problems in Rotherham. It's taken from
The Age, Saturday, 13th Sept. 2014:

http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/child-sex-abuse-within-families-rampant-20140912-10fxao.html

Foxy,

It takes enormous gall and insensitivity to the victims to try to slide the blame onto all men as you seek to do. I really hope you are getting paid for the hundreds of hours you spend at the keyboard denying the conclusions of independent reports. Here, read it for yourself and see if you come back with the same silly retorts,

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Exploitation in Rotherham (1997 – 2013)
http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/downloads/file/1407/independent_inquiry_cse_in_rotherham

You are completely insensitive, callous, to the truly dreadful suffering of those girls (and boys - in view of the sexual perversions of the particular culture introduced to the UK). 100 babies taken from their young mothers and who knows how many miscarriages and abortions? What about the fate of those infants?

The recent statements of senior authorities say that the horrendous practices continue. Not something of concern to you though. You deny factual reports and victim statements. You are too busy trying to slide the blame onto the general population, to blame the victims and their families, onto their fathers too, obviously. Disgusting.

See here,
onthebeach, Saturday, 13 September 2014 1:17:31 PM

Foxy,
We know whose side you're on because you keep changing the subject.
By those figures there a about 3,500 suspected cases in a population of 4.5 million Victorians, Rotherham has a population of 250,000 and the report gives a conservative estimate of 1400 victims.
Not the same thing at all, we're not even talking about the same type of offences, the Pakistani men in Rotherham were running prostitution rings for the entertainment of men in their own community, this article on Victoria has nothing to do with the subject at hand save for an oblique reference to "arranged marriages" ie West Asians and Middle Easterners.
Child sex abuse is endemic in the countries from which most of our non European immigrants are drawn, what's the bet that the sudden up tick in allegations in Victoria is connected to the demographic shift toward a population which better reflects Third World values?

Personal attacks on posters are an
emotional way of arguing - not a mature
intelligent one. When a link is given to
simply broaden the discussion it is
intended to do just that. It in no way
necessarily reflects what the poster's personal
feelings on teh subject may or may not be.
But is meant to add another perspective to the
discussion. Any one who then makes assumptions
and continues to insult the poster because of
a given link - is simply showing their own bias and
prejudices. It would serve the discussion much better
if the views in the link were attacked - and not the
poster who simply provided the link.

Pathetic!

Dear o sung wu,

You have given me a good chuckle.

A few weeks back on another thread you put to me the following;

“Another matter STEELEREDUX, by employing insulting, offensive, and disparaging language, in order to offend BANJO and others herein, simply because they dare disagree with your somewhat perverted and prejudiced views, is quite deplorable, thus rendering you as an arrogant and imperious individual!”
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=6547#195909

I challenged you to show me where I had used “insulting, offensive, and disparaging language” and you declined to reply.

This I know is an absolute fact, whatever I may have said doesn't come within a bull's roar of what you have dished out on this thread.

Here are a few examples;

“And those 'Lefties' the likes of this MAY MAY and PAUL1405 make me absolutely nauseous with their nonsensical tripe ! Australia unfortunately has more than their fair share of cowards and pretenders, we really need no more ?”

“Aka - the crooks friend !”

“ PAUL1405 and his miserable cohorts would be out demonstrating 'again' as 'consciences objectors'. What sickening, useless human beings, his and his kind are !”

“other pallid, inane members of the confused 'Left' all of whom are too busy attempting to secure their next taxpayer funded allowance ?”

“greasing their sweaty little plams(sic) with taxpayer's money.”

So my friend please don't ever accuse me in your pious manner about being rude or disrespectful to other forum contributors. You sir have most emphatically permanently lost that right. Further, hypocrisy is utterly unappealing.

What is a little disconcerting is that you open a thread in quite a measured manner, posing what might be said are interesting questions, but after a couple of posts you go off the deep end, full of bluster and indignation, insults and put downs, slander and generalisations. I'm not saying the same accusation can not be directed toward me but I would hope I am far more consistent.

Cont...

Sorry folks, wrong thread.