washed,

I think for myself. You should try it someday but no one can make you. I’m also human and I make mistakes. All the talk about your wonderful god who sends people to hell is only in your imagination.

One cannot rebel against or love that which does not exist.

Yes, I know the poor old persecuted Christian syndrome. Read this.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AtheitsHated.htm
“...changed my belief to young earth creationism. Yes I had a wide knowledge base...”

Those statements conflict and are not reconcilable. You have no understanding of science.

View this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvsE_ZYcP8&list=PL7C0CA45F60FD44C7&index=14

I have read the bible, something you possibly have only skirted through and I have read John. The bible has some interesting parts, mostly is boring and is full of the thoughts of ancient and ignorant men. Do you believe pigs can be possessed by demons for instance? Or Donkeys can talk? Information about my background is in this thread a number of times. Try reading it.

Your fear of hell is interesting. Your total disregard of putting that fear into the minds of children shows how you have surrendered your humanity to the forces of darkness.

No court of law inflicts a living penalty forever. Humans are not that ethically corrupt. Apparently, you have knowledge denied others that your god is really, really mean.

I assume you realise I’m only answering your questions to humour you. You are claiming that a particular god exists. It is therefore up to you to substantiate that claim.

Can you drop the charade of asking me stuff and get on with the proof thanks? Not babble, but proof all will accept.

Can you start by answering Tony Lavis’ question to you about this statement? “Why is it wrong for someone to be tortured forever?”

TL said, “Is this a trick question? We are talking about torture here. Surely you can answer that question for yourself. ”

We are all waiting and a big thanks for showing readers how nonsensical is religion.

David

David,

God! Well, as a small child I was told God sat on a throne up in heaven and could see and hear and see everything I said or did. As a result, I wouldn't 'scrump' apples from neighbour's trees like all my little friends were doing.
But oh, I wanted to!
I duly reported even small misdemeanours to him every night on my knees, watched over by my parents.
I didn't lie if I'd done something wrong, but admitted to it, all the while being aware that 'he' was listening in. The result was one very well behaved but scared kid.

Footnote: I still don't lie, so retained that part, but not because of God. Just see no reason to lie, when it's as easy to be truthful. And liars need good memories, which is something I don't have. I also found equally as effective ways to foster moral ethics into my own children - without using a God to scare them into it.

worldwatcher,

Yes, the idea of a god watching every move you make is very invasive for children (and adults) but the fear instilled by torture forever has warped minds for a very long time and still does.

The reason I asked the question of what happens to ‘sinner’s when they die was to flush out this inherent fear which is in most religions.

As a child I was as fearful as were my classmates of the concept. It influenced many of them to remain in the ‘fold’ and I am very thankful no such fear exists in me at all now.

The fear is so great that it can contort the mind of religious adherents to skirt around their own personal terror of hell using all kinds of shenanigans as we have witnessed in this thread. But mainly, religious people will not make the admission. To answer the question by saying you will go to hell, is an admission of the personal fear. To state one has a fear of hell is to say to the imaginary god that it is the fear that keeps one loving it.

I think now and even thought this as a child that the god would know about the fear factor his believers had which was keeping them on the ‘right track’. Do they think their god is stupid or something?

In my experience, the fear of torture forever, even though direct admissions of this are light on the ground, is one of the biggest contributing reasons why some remain mainstream religious whilst others go completely overboard with fundamentalist beliefs. (Or fly planes into building or shoot abortion doctors etc)

And this is exactly what the Australian governments is a party to in allowing religious fundamentalists into state schools by way of chaplains and via religious indoctrination classes. Australian governments are allowing children into a position where many will be terrorised for life. That is why so many thinking people oppose it.

Next time you vote, ask the opinion on this topic of your MP and don't accept woolly answers.

David

>>>You have no understanding of science.

There is no conflict; I changed my mind because of the evidence, not in spite of it. You should also explain how you know what I do and don't know about science.

>>>I have read John.

I've read the whole bible two or three times, and I know what is in it. This wasn't the point as to whether you had read the book of John or not. The question is, would you be willing to ask God, whether you believe in Him or not, to show you that the bible is His word and then read the book of John? If not, why not?

>>>Information about my background is in this thread a number of times.

There's 44 pages of comments and I don't have all day to read through them. You've avoided answering this question now three times for an unknown reason. Why can't you just say it? Why waste all of this time when you could either have told me, or pointed me to the information?

>>>putting that fear into the minds of children

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

>>>No court of law inflicts a living penalty forever.

If they could, they would. The duration of the punishment is only interrupted by the prisoners mortality. God is entirely ethical; if you end up in hell its your own fault. God gives everyone a way out through His Son.

>>>I assume you realise I’m only answering your questions to humour you.

You originally addressed me, remember? Your snideness is misplaced.

>>>get on with the proof

As I've explained to you, only God can reveal Himself to you. If He did, would you follow Him?

>>>We are all waiting

I've already answered this question. I said the bible tells us that love does no harm to its neighbor. Scripture tells us what Gods absolute standard is for right and wrong, and we all know there are things which are absolutely wrong. On what basis do you say that torture is wrong?

>>Depravity is expressed in mankinds propensity to sin, to rebel against his Creator.<<

Only by you and your bible-bashing mates: normal people think that 'depravity' refers to your moral character or lack thereof - and not to how strictly you follow the bible.

>>Man wants to believe that human beings are generally good, but they are actually generally sinful.<<

What does sin have to do with goodness? I know a lot of sinners who are really good people. They don't follow the word of God but they're much kinder, compassionate, more loving than pretty much every bible-basher posting on this site. They are generally good and generally sinful. I think that's better than being generally bad and generally virtuous.

>>My question is, what is your moral standard which informs you that torturing people is wrong?<<

Then why didn't you ask that?

My moral standard:

* Treat people the way they'd like to be treated. If you don't know how they'd like to be treated treat them the way you'd like to be treated.

Nobody wants to be tortured. Especially not me. So it isn't moral to torture anybody else.

>>Imagine if you went into a courtroom and said "your honor..i know ive lied and cheated and stolen and murdered..but i feel really bad about it and im really sorrry. please let me go." Is that judge going to let you go? No, he is going to give you justice, and so is God.<<

Well you'd hope he would give you justice but the legal system is an imperfect system and judges often hand down unjust sentences - either too lenient or too heavy. I still think they have a better sense of justice than Judge Jehovah who will let you off scot free for perjury, fraud, robbery and murder as long as you say "but i feel really bad about it and im really sorrry and i believe in jeesus" - but who will cheerfully sentence you to cruel and unusual punishment for eternity for the cold-blooded crime of not getting down and kissing his arse.

Cheers,

Tony

washed,

Your comments and questions should really be directed at a believer in your magic man who has you so frightened, not at me. There are a few names for it. Stigiophobia, Hadephobia and Stygiophobia. You can find out about this phobia here http://www.google.com.au/search?q=fear+of+hell&rlz=1C1_____en-gbAU507AU508&aq=f&oq=fear+of+hell&sugexp=chrome,mod=19&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 and there are ways to overcome it. You may need professional help.

Creationism is a delusion with no peer reviewed articles in accredited scientific journals. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5547#151745 And you say you understand science. Poppycock. Did you watch the video of Eugenie Scott? What was wrong with it?

Read the bible. you say? What about talking the donkey and demons in pigs? Comment thanks.

Use the search option Cntr F. Don’t bother. Here it is. http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5547#151689

Last time. Asking a god who doesn't exist anything is pointless. Keep saying this and I’ll assume you are an idiot. I'm close to that summation anyway.

The fear of the ‘Lord’ is the beginning of the waste of a life.

Try and engage brain. Eternity of torture is not acceptable to a human standards. If a god does this, it is a god who should be abhorred, not adored.

What is right with torture?

If a god proved he existed I would acknowledge that existence as I am a rational person. I am also an ethical person and would be opposed to such a monster.

How would you react if you made a ‘godly’ mistake and your ‘Lord’ decided to torture you forever. I guess you would agree with the sentence because of your love for this monstrous idea. Pull the other leg. (Australian-ism for I don't believe what you just said)

David