You are of course quite correct Csteele, fundamentlist judaism is
indeed an issue which the Economist wrote about in some detail,
some years ago. It sounds to me that secular Jews and Arabs might
just get on a great deal better, without religious fanatics from
both sides.

Fortunately for us, Judaism is not a proselytising religion, unlike
Christianity and Islam. So they are going to cling to their little
patch of Israel, but leave the rest of us alone. That is sadly
not the case with Islam and that is the problem.

Every religion has its gurus and with fundamental Islam, Sayyid Qutb
has had a huge influence. Salafists, bin Laden, Zawahiri and the
rest see his interpretation as the way to go, that is why bin Laden
so badly wanted war with the West.

The problem now is that Islamic nations, through the UN, are trying
to prevent free speech across the globe. What a disaster that would
be, if we could not freely express the reasons why we should not
be part of the planned Caliphate.

So this is about far more than a small patch called Israel.

Dear Csteele,

You asked me about the Haredim and the atom bomb. Stevenlmeyer would be better placed to discuss this. However, I will give it a shot.

As you know the Haredim do not fight; they believe that by prayer and study they can stay the hand of the enemy; save Israel. Also, as they have no maths of any real value in their education system, they would be useless deployed in the IDF - not being able to understand co-ordinates, nor other requirements. There has been strong suggestions that they should be employed in auxiliary positions, presumably canteens, nursing, etc. However, personally, I don't think they would be of great value. They wouldn't work on a sabbath, and I can't see them taking orders from women.

I don't believe Haredim are among settlers. I would think they would be concentrated round the Wailing Wall as a necessary part of their devotion.

Israel and the atom bomb. They have never admitted to having it, but we know they do. They certainly have never threatened to use it, even when situations looked very grim. The Israelis are only too aware of what the scenario would be if deployed. It has been, however, a very successful deterrent - up until now.

Iran is a theocracy. The regime believes that a Holy War will usher in their Apocalyptic vision. Having the atom bomb ... They certainly have placed their cards on the table about Israel.

If Iran did deploy it against Israel, all bets would be off. Israel would surely retaliate. Why wouldn't it?

Realistically, if Israel did not retaliate, and with Iran armed with the atom bomb, no western country would be safe. Emboldened, Iran would look to taking its Holy War to western infidels.

As already seen Arab states are siding with Israel to prevent Iran getting the bomb. They do no share Iran's Apocalyptic vision.

Thank you, Poirot :-)

Yes, we have strayed off topic. However, I would like to add: There is a problem also if terrorist organisations, such as Hezbolah and Hamas, et al, supported by Iran obtained nuclear material. The problem would not just be Israel's.

The issue of freedom of speech and proposed blasphemy laws are a slippery slope.

In certain Islamic texts blasphemy against both Christianity and Judaism is clearly evident. Whilst Muslims perhaps would not see Mohammad 'consorting' with the Virgin Mary in Paradise as blasphemy, many Christians would.

I don't believe in blaspheming any religion ... apart from being insulting, it is pointless. However, any ideology and that includes religion should be open to discussion, debate and criticism. What if the public had ignored the issue of child sexual abuse in the Catholic Church? The Church tried to avert this, but freedom of speech prevailed.

It will be interesting to see what Islamic intellectuals have to say.

Ah! ... But, Poirot ... they love you!

IMAGINE*..All disagreements are forever resolved -

from where the borders of the two countries will lie,
to how they will share Jerusalem as their capital.

Let's also assume that all Muslim and Arab nations will keep their promise to recognise Israel – and that the militants of Hamas, Hezbollah, and Islamic Jihad are consigned to the dustbin of history.

Israel is finally free to realise its full potential as a nation.
Or, to put it another way – Israel is finally free to let its own internal divisions and hatreds tear it apart.

If you think Israelis and Palestinians don't see eye to eye, the gulf between secular Israelis and the ultra-orthodox religious is probably just as wide.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-09-23/knight-make-no-mistake-israels-existence-is-under-threat/2935080

Photo: Israel's ultra-orthodox Jews don't work, don't pay taxes and don't serve in the army. Not surprisingly, it's a pretty sore point. (Reuters: Gil Cohen Magen)

These are comments attracted by Knight's article, presenting more detail.

“Israel's economy is growing at three times the rate of the rest of the developed world. The country has about 60 companies traded on the Nasdaq, more than any nation outside North America after China and is also home to the largest number of startup companies per capita in the world.” - Sandy

“Haredi women have always worked and paid taxes. Currently, many Haredi men are entering the work force. “- Shmuel Nagid

“Even if Israel has this issue it still far out-produces its neighbours. It may in fact be the only sustainable economy in the Meditteranean and ME where the problem is the exact opposite - countries with very big youth bulges and virtually zero quality education and economic hope. In fact in a different way Turkey faces the exact same problem Israel does with overly religious Islamists from the Anatolian regions vastly out-reproducing the more secular westernised regions which are actually the productive regions.” - Joel

“I have two sisters living in Israel. One is heradi (literally, G-d fearing). She and her 8 adult children and their families all work and pay tax like any other Israeli citizen. Most of her boys did some limited form of military duty. … The other sister is secular and lives on a kibbutz as does her two adult children. Through their kibbutz, they too pay tax. Her children and husband were required to serve longer in the military.” - watching from the sideline

However, we have definitely gone off-topic and should return to it ...