SPQR as we both understand, you and I rarely agree.
On this subject we rarely disagree.
Stevenmyer seems unimpressed with my views yet is nearer middle here,as he is in fact normally, he has not been seen as extreme, ever.
Yes some got heated, some even went too far.
But we have got this many posts, BECAUSE of underlying, truly held concerns.
Those concerns come from world wide happenings, beheading on film of innocent captives.
Both asking and receiving US help to get Russia out of Afghanistan, then the Taliban taking it over.
Using sporting grounds to MURDER folk.
Cherry pickers to lynch others.
The unforgivable cruelty of 9/11.
The pettiness of the first Cartoon marches and mayhem, this film, the second run of cartoons.
Why not us,piss Christ, the last temptation of Christ?
OUG, Mate sorry, your poetry? is it that? increasingly make your post impossible for me to under stand, yet you post clear and interesting stuff the get back to spelling as bad as mine ever was and more?
Any chance of spell checking.

Dear Poirot,

Really just returning the favour, though as I was certainly less overt than yourself when you were defending me so the credit is all yours. This thread has been a pretty lonely place for people of our thinking and I have appreciated the support, thank you.

Dear stevenlmeyer,

Both Israel and Saudi Arabia are the delinquent foster children of the US. Both are spreading mayhem, Israel by sowing settlements and Saudi Arabia by sowing Wahhabism. Both conduct themselves in a manner that is completely antithetical to the values the US purports to stand for.

Like any foster parent the US sees its duty as ignoring the most egregious of their faults and supporting them, whatever it takes, when they get hauled up before the law or the court of public opinion. It is this support that serves to so damage the US and its message of tolerance, democracy and justice, a message that many countries still so badly need to hear.

While I certainly agree the effectiveness of our expenditure needs to be gauged, especially against the cost of doing nothing, effort really has to be directed at getting the US to take a more strident position on Saudi Arabia. Perhaps banning weapons manufacturers from donating to politicians in the US might be a start.

Dear SPQR,

Actually that was my initial response too, though I didn't lose my arse over it. It was initially raised with me by two Han Chinese students and I was rather dismissive. A later, rather booze impacted, discussion with a visiting Chinese national and further discussions with my fundamentalist in-laws reinforced the impetus to research the topic.

Fundamentalist Christianity (FC) and capitalism are natural partners, each complimenting and progressing the other. FC is a version that allows people to ignore Christ's condemnation of the rich, to disguise but facilitate the quixotic notion that greed is a divine commandment, and give a form of spiritual nourishment to those who are disturbed by the emptiness of hyper-capitalism but aren't prepared to give it up. The 'Free Church' movement in China is an interesting development. We have seen a progression from the 'house churches' into office buildings where FC and business networking is thriving.

A decade ago a writer for the journal Foreign Affairs wrote; “A similar pattern can be seen in China today, where there may be more than 60 million Protestant Christians (compared with 700,000 in 1949). Some Chinese sociologists have noted the "coincidence" that the most significantly Christianised city, Wenzhou, where some 14 percent of the population is now Christian, is also one of China's top performers in domestic commerce and foreign trade.”

A more recent BBC report claims “There are already more Chinese at church on a Sunday than in the whole of Europe.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

I am very familiar with this form of Christianity and while it undoubtedly helps some people better manage some of problems life throws at them its capacity for evil shouldn't be dismissed.

Dear UOG,

I did like “politricks of colonisation” and the 'stonning' bible.

Oh I think all this is fairly easily explained. Csteele is a
romantic at heart and he is going to create that Nirvana. Sadly the
real world does not work that way.

Now lets say that we realists listened to the likes of Marylin,
Csteele etc, what would be the outcome?

All those millions of Muslim migrants would soon be a political
number not to be ignored. Forget Islam as a timid religion, the
first thing that would go would be free speech. The result would
be a disaster. No more freedom to openly talk about religion.
Even Runner could preach to his heart's content about Jesus and the
moment anyone wrote anything, out comes the blasphemy charge.

That is exactly how it is in nations with Muslim majorities, so the
claim that Islam is just like any other religion, is a crock.

Fact is it is a divisive religion, that is just what is written
in their holy book. Even bin Laden was a Muslim, before becoming
a fundamentalist.

But of course the likes of Csteele are so carried away with their
emotional dreams of Nirvana, that the law of unintended consequences
is totally overlooked. A bit like the Greens party really.

All very sweet and it even impresses the girls, but all unrealistic

Yabby,

"All very sweet and impresses the girls..."

My admiration of csteele emanates from his world view...here is a guy attempting to utilise his intelligence over his instinct. We do that sometimes in civilised life - that's how we came up with notions like democracy, etc.

I understand what you are saying about the propensity of Islam to violence. Yet, I'd be interested to know the numbers of Muslims who have been killed and maimed by the glorious West in its history of colonisation and triumph in the region.

I also admire "your" knowledge of instinctual human behaviour, but it's not a matter of you impressing me because I'm a "girl". I think that is a cheap shot.

*Yet, I'd be interested to know the numbers of Muslims who have been killed and maimed by the glorious West*

So Poirot, how far do you want to go back in history. How many people
were killed by Muhammed's invading armies, which started in Medina
and eventually took over most of the Med area ? Fact is that wars
have been fought and once the West developed superior technology,
that was the end of the Ottaman empire. Now you think I should cry
tears.

I thought that we had moved on from that, in terms of how Islam
affects countries now and today and what would happen if Australia
accepted 15 million Muslim migrants, as the likes of Marylin, the
Greens and others are encouraging us to do. Sorry, but no nirvana
there.