P.S. wouldn't one atomic detonation have been sufficient deterrence for the Japanese?, at the end of the WW2. I rest my my case in relation to military excess.

And as for Agent Orange, don't get me started.

There is a salient point being made by SPQR but not one I feel is offered intentionally. It is that we are living our armchair existence here in Australia and refusing to condemn the actions of an ally with whom our soldiers are fighting in a far off land but conducting itself in a manner contrary to conventions we have signed up to. Our justification? We are scared, scared enough to not only turn a blind eye but to turn also on those who have the temerity to question what it occurring.

If fear is the justification we are using how much more justification does an Afghan or person living in the Tribal Areas have for their actions? If I go to a funeral, or a church, or an religious festival, or a school, or to my home to be with my family I do not fear death from the air yet these people live with it on a daily basis.

Belly, SPQR and all others who refuse to condemn or even question the CIA's drone warfare with its evident cost in civilian lives are condoning what is being done in their name. Yet at what cost? I have been accused of denigrating the West (even though I have been at pains to keep the bulk of my posts specifically addressing the drone strikes in Pakistan) but I am attempting to defend what I believe to be hard won Western values that I have always been proud to espouse.

These included an abhorrence of those who torture, those who target civilians in warfare, those who conduct extra-judicial killings, those who fail to follow the Geneva Convention.

It is those values that I am defending while those mentioned above are denigrating them. I repeat I am seeing the moral capital of my country and that of America pissed up against the wall and it is making me increasingly furious.

This is not who we are. We have been far better than this and can be again. It is a price we should no longer be prepared to pay.

There is a verse in the Koran, Csteele, which basically implies
that the ends justify the means. So that is how the Taliban can
justify just about anything and largely get away with it.

They certainly don't respect the Geneva Convention, or their soldiers
would be in uniforms. We would avoid much of the problems, but
instead they try to use our weaknesses, to win in their way.

Turning the other cheek is not the best of strategies in a war,
I can assure you. I don't blame the Australians, nor the Americans
for not employing it, as you seem to suggest that they should.

Drones are used on the Afghan-Pakistan border, for they are by far
the most effective weapon at liquidating terrorists. These are
areas where even the Pakistani army fears to tread.

I remind you why we are there. Clinton tried to blow up bin Laden
in an Afghan training camp, after it became clear that Al Queda were
implicated in bombing US embassies in Africa, with hundreds dying.
He missed, by a matter of hours. Perhaps he did the wrong thing,
advising Pakistan that he was about to fire missiles.

Next the US asked the Taliban to hand over bin Laden, after Al Qaeda
attacked America, killing thousands. The Taliban refused.

That left the US no choice but to hunt him and his cohorts down,
wherever they may be, for otherwise more attacks on the West could
be expected.

There is no evidence that civilians are purposefully being killed.
Yes there is evidence that some civilians are being killed as
collateral damage, that is the sad side effect of war.

Handing Afghanistan back to the Taliban, is hardly an option.
Tribal leaders in the area are of course free to hand over the
Al Queda members like Zawahiri and bin Laden if he is still alive.
There would then be no need to use drones to kill them.

Given that Zawahiri continues in his intent to destroy the West,
there is no other option really, but to knock him out first, before
he creates any more-damage.

thinker 2, "P.S. wouldn't one atomic detonation have been sufficient deterrence for the Japanese?, at the end of the WW2. I rest my my case in relation to military excess."

No, following Hiroshima there was stony silence from the Japanese high command who speculated that the US only had one big bomb. The Japanese were well prepared for any attempted invasion, which would have easily resulted in a minimum of a million US servicemen casualties and twenty million Japanese deaths through suicide alone. The Japanese high command were convinced by the losses they had already inflicted on the US at Iwo Jima and elsewhere in the Pacific that they could inflict massive casualties and if ordered by them their own people, soldier and civilian, would choose death before surrender.

The detonation of the second bomb convinced the Japanese high command that the US probably had more nuclear bombs (and they were right!), so they capitulated.

In fact the US was reluctant to use the bombs and when it did so, it was measured. Plainly you needed to rest your case on facts not on anti-US prejudice.

Csteel you will not defend the western values down on your knees blind folded to the other sides reality's.
Thinker 2 ,why did you post that about ww2 and the second city?
In fact America knew Japan was preparing to fight, every child every woman, to the death.
After the first bomb, even before it, surrender calls went out.
As you should know,Japan had lied, told its population Americans would rape and murder, [not unlike some today really].
After refusal to surrender, only then,bomb two was sent.
Japan may well have still not given in, Russia invading parts of China, taking massive ground, may have been the reason Japan gave in.
Like modern Japan, your one sided view on those bombs neglects to observe the primitive actions ,inhuman ones, that that country did.
I challenge the left of my childhood, the dream I shared,to confront the nightmare ,the reality it has become.
We are seeing concerns at a military weapon in use,but nothing for the victims past present and future for increasing parts of a religion that has gotten far away from the ideals of equality freedom and my old wasted years in the dream time left, I grew out of it, women came to equality not enforced slavery.
If the left is honest it must confront its directions.
Americas sins in that area are more than matched by those the left whimpers for.

How many posting here have been strategists in war or served in arresting or destroying an enemy of the people? Let them propose a strategy to capture an enemy without loss of life of our soldiers or police without involving some assumed innocent friends of the enemy.