From ABC News today:

"United States missiles fired from remotely-controlled aircraft have killed 15 militants in Pakistan.
The US missiles hit a vehicle and a suspected militant compound in Pakistan's volatile region of North Waziristan.
The first strike hit near the town of Mandi Del. The drones fired again when militants rushed to the scene to retrieve the dead and injured."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/02/3104920.htm

Why are we still part of this?

When did we blithely condone the killing of those who have "rushed to the scene to retrieve the dead and injured"?

So now we use the screams of the wounded as bait for another attack? In my childhood it was only those "mongrel Japs" or "Jerries" that would do a thing like that, leave a man pleading for help between the lines just to entice the brave and foolhardy to chance rescuing him so he could be picked off.

Very few of us weren't totally sickened by the gunning down of the van driver and his children who had gone to assist the wounded Reuter's reporter in the Wikileaks video 'Collateral Murder'
www.collateralmurder.com (the site no longer seems to open).

The military's press release on the incident was that 11 insurgents and the two Reuters men had been killed during an attack on American troops. It stood for nearly 2 years despite numerous FOI attempts from Reuter until Wikileaks released the footage.

Don't we need them now!

So many questions, so few answers and it would seem so little interest in finding out more from our traditional news providers.

Are the dead victims or perpetrators.
Those rushing to retrieve the dead are they Innocent or part of the now dead.
Can we,women included claim to understand just what is happening in those country's.
Show me please do, concern for the females who live a second class life there.
If we return home will they come too, the terrorists?
Will it get better or worse if we come home.
If we do will boats in numbers we can not yet believe come here.
So easy to say stop our troops killing/being killed come home, what then?
Are our sins in these country's even near the equal of the Taliban, of the 9/11 murderers?
We do not live In a world that fixes its self, or one that has a wonderful God waiting to fix it for us.
Have no doubt we must fix the wrongs.
And defend our right to be us,it is simplistic to blame only the west for the murderous situation.
And thoughts we should sit back and let evil take its course are blind to reality we one day will fight such a dirty battle, maybe here at home.
Yes it would be good to leave, but while we are there I have no problems with deaths of such folk.

belly asked..<<dead victims..or perpetrators>

Over 10,000..died in Afghan violence..in 2010
http://uruknet.com/?p=m73505&hd=&size=1&l=e

about a fifth/civilians
about what is..in a union

how would you like..one unionist..to innocently die
for every four..accused*..of being bad-guys'..

and re 911..its time you got up to speed..on what really happend
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/wrh_9-11_index.php

thumbnail scetch..the night before..cheeney anounced 2 trillion dollars missing from pentagone accounting...the next day[9/11]..the stockmarket was going to go into meltdown

planned exersizes were planned...at the targeted buildingd
overseen by cheney from the bunkers...mossad involvment was complete

the building's had not just one..but two insurances..on terrorist attack specificlly...[with an israel insurance..as primary insuror...,eaning if they paidout..OTHERS HAD TO PAY-out too

its a clever scam
but hardly new
http://www.activistpost.com/2010/12/13-lies-abbreviated-history-of-us.html#more

but whats it all REALLY about
getting the drugs to the cia..via rendition-flights
getting the gold from building 7
destroying the enron case evidence..[in building 7]
getting at the 2 trillion of minerals in aphganastan
getting bailouts to mates

getting rid of buildings..the 100 year-lease holder had to remove asbestos from..[estimated at over two bilklion..but no-one wanted to do..[couldnt get liability insurance cause of asbestosis..fears for the workers suing]

and of course..building a pipeline

The reason the year 2014..is touted as the year for the beginning of US/NATO withdrawal..is that this is the year..that the TAP (Turkmenistan/Afghanistan/Pakistan)*Pipeline,..bringing natural gas from Turkmenistan into Pakistan,..is supposed to be completed.

but heck mate..swallow the coolaid
the ONLY steel-frame buildings..ever..to fall down
building 7 wasnt even hit...lol

its never been investigated

metal was smelted..as it was salvaged..to get rid of the proof it was demolised...by those in govt...mossad set up the patsies...and rigged demolition...busches brother was security provider for the building

911...*it's a scam

Yes it's completely disgusting isn't it? And there is so little debate or discussion about Australia's part in this! An out-of-control homicidal rogue state with Australia crawling up its arse at every stage.

Far as it may seem from the problem, the biggest single unseen contributing factor is the US Federal Reserve. Throughout history, governments have been addicted to inflation, especially to fund war, because it means they are able to conceal the true costs of the war whereas taxation would be much more visible, resented, and opposed. The Fed is the US gumments' inflating machine, silently vacuuming up money from everyone in America, and since America is the reserve currency of the world, from everyone in the world, to pay for this utterly corrupt wasteful destruction.

However there is some good news. The one Congressman to have steadily opposed the Fed for the last 30 years is Ron Paul. He wants it abolished, to bring all US troops home, to retire the armies now blowing up goatherds and bridal parties in the third world, (and garrisoned in Germany and Japan 65 years after the war ended!) and in short, to beat their swords into ploughshares. Up til now no-one has listened, but the GFC, and the resurgence of the Austrian school of economics that successfully predicted it, has provoked interest in the Fed as never before. And Ron Paul has been appointed chairman of the Congress's Financial Services sub-committee. So we will watch with interest his examinations of the government's zillion-dollar handouts of stolen money to banksters, big corporations and foreign governments, (which idiots and ignoramuses call "unrestrained capitalism") and hope for Ron Paul's early victory in the war for honest money.

OUG Peter Hume, first the deaths are dreadful murder always is.
How ever what can humanity do, are you saying if we be good the other side will too.
Peter I have never doubted your intelligence, why swear like that?
Is it in your view ok? if I use that filth too?
I am no prude, in fact can out swear you without taking breath, what would that prove here?
OUG how many innocents die in any war, was Afghanistan better under the Taliban, do you support sports grounds being used to commit murder as a spectator sport?
9/11 those towers fell, innocents died do not be fooled by the stupidity of those who blame others.
Right now,right or wrong, we are at war, efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, have stopped massive murders in our country's by terrorists fed lies and hate in the name of a God.
Do you think they will see us putting our
weapons away as weakness.
Modern man is fighting against some who want to take us back to the dark ages.
Wikileaks is showing Arab nations asking America and its suporters to get even more involved in war ,,against Iran for one.
Well meaning, but one sided views do more harm than good , should Australia have stayed out of WW2? was our Mr Hume about then, did he consider us living in England's , well leave the filth along with the blindness to others.

If we focussed on stamping out stupidity as we are focussing on making as much money as possible for as little effort as possible then we'd probably read about such killings in history books.
I wonder what it is about stupidity being so embedded in society/religion/business.
It's a bit like I love Australia but if someone offered enough money it's for sale. Same goes for religion. There's only one God so why do we have so many religions ? If someone can explain this logic please do it here. You never know, it might prevent another stupid act.

belly quote..<<how many innocents..die in any war>>..far too many..my brother,

think of..those kids/died ww1
in the trenches...or gallipoly..or korea..or vietnam
usa hasnt stopped killing since ww2...mate..its not good enough

but its worse..what they do to americans
ok mostly black yankies...but the numbers
of unborn..MURDED..since jfk got murderd...totals 65 million

thats just..[usa]..abortion/numbers
there is a death-cult..running usa mate...really*

<<was Afghanistan..better under the Taliban>>
belly..thats not for me to say
needless to add..MANY LESS DIED

so yes sharia/law is barbaric
but mate...when people..KNOW the law,
many more live..than die..under it

<<do you support sports-grounds..being used..to commit murder..as a spectator sport?>>.no..i dont agree..with govt having any right to kill..or main..their trust[the people]..

i dont agree with yanks..killing people by 3 lethal injections..or in electrick chairs..either

but we used to..do the same thing
we USED to hang people

we USED to burn people at the steak
flog people in the main street..put people in stocks

but we changed..without some war-mongering
natzi/nation..comming here..dropping bombs

besides...usa..set-up..most of them govts..!

bin..lardarson..and that d-head in iraq...we made them
or rather they were cia patsies...just like we installed idi amin...and the shar of iran...

usa has played both sides
against the other/..brother..against brother

do not be fooled
by the stupidity..of those who blame others!.!.!

mate..that cuts both ways

you talk of..<hate in the name of a God.>>

thats bull...mate..they dumbed-down..their own people
[read dumbing down the us education system]

they installed dictators GLOBALLY...be it in south americas..or indonesia..[you cant really be knowing all mate..but they do this globally..think of saudie..or kuwait..or georgia..its global brother

<<putting our/weapons away as weakness.>>
thats bull...send them..some real assistance
send in unarmed priests..to give REAL aid and assistance

those not hiding behind guns..
or kids playing/targeting them..with misiles,..from usa

send food/phones...jobs..not bombs

<<some/want to take us back..to the dark ages.>>
yes mate..TOTALLY TRUE..but not some arab..trying to feed his family

<<should Australia..have stayed out of WW2?>>yes
and ww1//korea/vietnam..etc etc

tell the yankies..you want war..
go to hell..[the kiwies did]

julia..is weak as psss
things will only get worse

Belly asks “Are the dead victims or perpetrators”? And of course we just have no idea, however there is one certainty after Wikileaks, we can't trust the US military to tell us the truth.

But his post is instructive. After the 'assume they are all terrorists unless told otherwise' comes the obligatory concern for the inhabitants, well the female ones at least.

Then comes the list of fears. These help explain why people like Belly, who I do not doubt is a kindly sort on most other issues, is so blind to the criminal behaviour on display by the allies almost on a daily basis in Afghanistan.

Fear number one is terrorists coming to this country. It is worth noting the report talked about militants and Belly already has them as terrorists. But how will they get here?

This brings us to fear number two, an increase in those arriving by boat. Why should we fear that? Because there will obviously be terrorists among them. But there is another reason, because they might interfere in our “right to be us” and this right needs defending in a far off land.

These culminate in the ultimate fear, that one day we may be fighting this battle “here at home”.

Now it doesn't matter how irrational these fears may seem to many of us they are very real to those like Belly. We need to try and understand how the got there and how they remain despite news reports like the OP.

Cont..

Cont..

Fear has the ability to throw ones morals out the window and it is a measure of people and of nations when they are able to hold true to what is right in spite of those fears. Israel's ban on torture comes to mind especially when held against America's twisting of their legacy and law to justify it in their own country.

An attempt at justification was evident in Belly's post. Because he sees our 'sins' less than those he sees of the Taliban and of the 9/11 perpetrators we should not be concerned about the methods we are using to slaughter Afghan and Pakistani tribesmen, he has “no problems with deaths of such folk”. Yet where is the call to tackle the country that provided the bulk of the 9/11 attackers, the same one that continues to finance radical Islam through out the world?

So who do we blame for the irrational fears, the lame justification, the selective or lack of empathy, the blindness of what is right and wrong?

Is it the media? Partly maybe. However in the end it has to be our leaders. They can stoke these flames of fear or they can reassure and mitigate through a strong moral stance and the ability to communicate it to all Australians.

In this department Australia is sorely lacking so we are condemned to see the measure of moral capital we once enjoyed as a people and a nation pissed against the wall by what is being done in our name.

Finally to add insult to injury we are forced to realise that we have in our midst people whose fear is so great they are more offended by the word 'arse' than the growing piles of broken bodies and lives that we are accumulating in order that they can sleep a little easier at night.

I do agree entirely with your view on this, csteele.

Senseless aggression is a better description of drone activity, but then again this is from a country, that since the second world war,
has introduced us to Agent Orange, and the effects of a nuclear detonation upon a city,or cities, for good measure.

I guess you start at the top and work your way down.

What I say, in reply to the three posts above mine will hurt.
It will gain me no Friends and maybe see lost ones.
But it is how I think, we all have opinions, a view on every thing.
The left, the greens, some others, have a view shaded by a type of sun glasses, that do not show true light,worn night and day like blinkers.
Anti America on any, every subject, canonizing any enemy of America,and at all costs, side stepping reality.
I remember my days in road side camps reading, learning understanding history.
The left called Britain and America war mongers, until Germany unveiled its true intentions, and invaded Russia.
WHO among the left stood up and shouted when Russia invaded Afghanistan?
Who, tell me please, stands up for women in the middle east and world wide who live second hand lives from the left.
REMEMBER the true left is always and forever a minority.
And never will consider issues such as this as anything other than a reason to defame America.
Who of the left took to its fellow traveler Saddam for turning his country in to a cemetery?
RIGHT are my enemy, left are every ones, truth, reality,fairness is not to be found in the true left.
Last one God? while every God is lead in humanity's saddle bag can ANY ONE say only other Gods not mine should go?
I am content to be me, to claim to try to see every side we are in a very bad war, corruption on the side we support is rife, but I believe it is an awful fight we can not avoid and sadly,it will one day come to our shores ,all in the name of Gods.
I wish I did not think that, but in reality we have seen it in a recent court case funded by our social security for 19 years , so if truth condemns me so be it take the blinkers of

If your referring to my comments Belly, I don't think I was being Anti-American in stating the facts. Perhaps I was being overly harsh in the context I presented my view.

It is hard however you look at it, to match the record of the U.S. for military overkill.

If it is fundamental that the innocent be protected, even in war?, and I am assuming it would be part of Conventions and Treaties such as Geneva etc, drones increase the possibility of the innocent being killed or injured.

This is the point, not left or right politics, or how insecure we do or don't feel about gods or terrorism, it is about military excess. In the name of what?. A line needs to be drawn about what is acceptable and what isn't. And who are we?. What do we stand for?.

Torture is not acceptable for example, hitting targets based on so called intelligence by machine with scant regard for the identity of the people who happen to be there at the time, is barbarism dressed up military cleverness. And as to the truth, efficiency or worthiness of drones, it is obviously naive to believe the U.S. and their spin anyway.

Otherwise we may as well just sit and wait for the next dastardly innovation to enjoy,
as we spiral downwards as a society. Our values a distant memory.

thinker 2, "It is hard however you look at it, to match the record of the U.S. for military overkill."

You previously gave the nuclear explosions that forced Japan's capitulation and the end of war in the Pacific theatre in WW2 as an example of alleged US 'excesses'.

In the battle of the Coral Sea the US lost thousands of its youth defending Australia, which was entirely alone and at risk of imminent invasion. You might have a check on the tonnage of bombs dropped on Darwin by the Japanese and compare it with cities in the European theatre, a fact that was kept secret by Australian governments for decades. We were lucky not to have sustained huge losses of civilians, but there would have been if the main capitals were eventually bombed as Japan planned to do.

The US lost many more thousands capturing Pacific Islands - again the losses have only come to light recently as embargoes on the release on military records has lifted.

Invasion of Japan would have caused massive losses both of military personnel and civilians. There had been significant losses of civilians in Pacific Islands through mass suicides encouraged by Japan's leaders.

What strategy can you now propose with the benefit of hindsight that would have forced Japan to surrender with fewer casualties? Second, is there any doubt that if Japan had had a nuclear bomb it would have used it on Darwin for starters?

Cornflower,

There is a difference between the strategies employed in a major conflict like WWII and a superpower prowling the world during relative "peacetime" picking off countries for invasion because it suits their economic agenda.

Belly

In the modern era we have arrived at a situation whereby one superpower has achieved a state powerful enough to influence events throughout the world - whether this power is militarily based or economically based, it is called hegemony, and it is dangerous because it actually works to destabilise relations between countries.

America as the foremost representative of Western dominance, has had its fingers in the Middle-East pie for a long time. It's back again lauding its reasons as being altruistic in the name of democracy and freedom. The U.S. was Saddam's number one backer during the war with Iran and since his downfall is responsible for the deaths of many and the indiscriminate destruction of infrastructure in a country that lead the region in advanced education and medical facilities.

Poirot,

Your comment is irrelevant. My challenge to thinker 2 was to prove it was an excessive use of US force as claimed by him.

However if you believe the US used excessive force in its bid to end the war in the Pacific theatre by all means suggest how the Allies could have achieved the same purpose another way. Both you and thinker 2 have the full benefit of hindsight, so go for it.

Despite the tone of my last post I had privately given Belly credit for not shooting the messenger, a typical reaction of people when trying to defend the indefensible.

I'm glad I did not do so publicly as his next post does just that. While I am not a Green it is fair to say they have been the most vocal on this issue in the political sphere and they cop a decent spray.

In virtually any other sphere I am confident Belly would be manning the barricades when faced with the facts of this issue. Why so blind now?

Does he know that the drone strikes in Pakistan are not done by the military but rather the CIA. That's right a country's secret service without the military's rules of engagement is raining death and terror from the skies. Whilst imperfect the military does at least have a system of accountability that the CIA is not constrained by. Indeed information about the latest attack was gleaned from two Pakistani intelligence officers but only on the promise of anonymity.

Doesn't the Geneva Convention have something to say about this one may well ask? Indeed it does but the Additional Protocols 1 and 2 which have the most relevance in this matter (and have been used to convict war criminals recently) have been signed but not ratified by the US.

Well don't we need to be able to trust the CIA will make every effort to make sure they are hitting the right target and keeping civilian casualties to a minimum? Surely they wouldn't strike public places like mosques or schools now would they?

"September 8, 2008 missile attack on a North Waziristan village. The drones fired at least five missiles at a religious school founded by Jalaluddin Haqqani—a Taliban leader (who was formerly financed by the CIA) and the official target of the U.S. attack. At least 17 people were killed with some estimates reaching as high as 23. Of those killed, at least eight were children. Haqqani's wife, sister, and sister-in-law were all killed as well."

Cont...

Cont...

"Roughly twenty were wounded, most of which were women and children according to doctors on the scene. Haqqani was not present at the time of the bombing."
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16539

What about public gatherings?

"..the U.S. fired several missiles—as many as ten—into the village of Damadola, located in the Bajaur tribal area on January 13, 2006. According to The Washington Post, "the target was a dinner celebrating the Muslim holiday of Eid al-Adha." The individual whom the U.S. was hoping to kill was Ayman al-Zawahiri, an al-Qaeda deputy. The CIA had reportedly received some evidence—possibly derived from an interrogation of another al-Qaeda operative—that al-Zawahiri was going to be attending the holiday dinner."
 
"Initially, U.S. and Pakistani officials declared that up to four members of al-Qaeda were killed in the bombings. » ….»When the dust settled after the blasts, at least three houses were totally destroyed and at least 18 people were killed, with some reports putting the death toll as high as 22.[34] By all accounts, five children and five women were among the dead while 14 of the dead were likely from the same family. » … « U.S. and Pakistani officials later admitting that "none of those al-Qaeda leaders" previously alleged to have "perished in the strike" were in fact killed, noting that "only local villagers were killed.""

What about these doesn't make you want to weep?
Yet drones are increasingly becoming the weapon of choice. In 2004-7 there were 9 strikes in the Tribal Areas, 2008 – 34, 2009 – 53, 2010 – 117. The bulk of these were in North Waziristan, one of the most disadvantaged areas in Pakistan. Compared to a national literacy rate of 56% its is less than 16%. While there is a doctor for every 1226 people in Pakistan as a whole the is only one for every 7670 in the tribal areas.

Why are we surprised by greater numbers joining the Taliban?

For a map of past drone strikes go here;
http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/03/18/spotlight_on_north_waziristan

Have we forgotten.
Do we not remember America helped fight the Russians in Afghanistan?
Are Americas crimes as bad as Russia's there.
Who dare talk of financial world leadership and leave China out, Russia, India.
I am aware of American wrongs, support Wikileaks, know we are never told the whole story.
But refuse to budge, the left stayed silent when America stopped the deaths in the Balkans, Helped over throw true evil in the Taliban.
In reference the ww2 America ,remember, did not torture and kill prisoners of war, rape and murder hundreds of thousands of civilians.
America has never hidden the true history of ww2 JAPAN today still refuses to teach its kids the whole true story of crimes unmatched in any war by any country.
Blind your self to the madness of the murderers using middle ages hate to power destruction, who cut throats and kill for joy, I will not.
Left off center people should carefully watch the true left, it presents more danger to true change true Labor government that the very right.

I rest my case.

The drones are by far the most effective and efficient means of
taking out Al Quaeda and Taliban leaders.

If the Taliban were really concerned about lives, they are
free to put on uniforms, so that we know who they are.

If America had used drones to take out Saddam and his boys,
it would have saved everyone a lot of lives and bother.

Belly got it right, CSteele’s intent is to denigrate the Americans.

S/he starts the little ruse :
“Why are we still part of this?
… we blithely condone the killing of those who have "rushed to the scene to retrieve the dead and injured"?

[It’s immoral to attack “rescuers”!]

But when challenged by Belly, retorts :
“ the obligatory concern for the inhabitants, well the female ones at least”

[No, apparently, it’s ok to attack “rescuers” as long as they aren’t female!]

But there was no mention of male or female in the news link, why say “well the female ones at least”? [unless, to play the “they are bullies” card].

And this, second part of the quip is also informative:
“ one certainty after Wikileaks, we can't trust the US military to tell us the truth”

[The WHOLE report was sourced from the US military –why believe any of it ?]

S/he goes on:
“So now we use the screams of the wounded as bait for another attack? In my childhood it was only those "mongrel Japs" or "Jerries"”

[Where has s/he been for the last ten years?]

Such two pronged attacks have been long used by militants in Iraq and Afghanistan --- except, they characteristically employ it in crowded Baghdad/ Kabul streets ---not isolated militant camps.

By the third post, Csteele’s talking of the “slaughter’ of “ Afghani and Pakistani tribesmen” [ appealing to noble savage sentiment? ]
In all likelihood, the targets were foreign Jihadis, Saudi, Egyptian or even, Australian.Wikileaks which CSteele holds so dearly, tells us that are 25 Australians being held on terror charges in Yemen.

Then, Peter Hume chips-in accusing the US army of “ blowing up goatherds and bridal parties” as a matter of policy.Neglecting to mention that when the militants embed themselves next to civilians, or dress as a women , or use women or children to deliver bombs it elevates the chances of such things happening.

And OUG does his bit about 911 being a CIA plot .

Don’t let them get to you Belly!

SPQR,

Belly knows we're not trying "to get to him". He's the first to admit that we all have our opinions.
I'm fascinated by the fact that most of the funding for Muslim extremist organisations emanates from Saudi Arabia, yet they are great pals of successive U.S. Administrations...and they have a woeful reputation for limiting the autonomy of their female population. Another interesting phenomenon is that America's ally Pakistan seems to provide an abundance of the training venues for Muslim extremism - and again they are seen as pals of the U.S.?

Belly,

The Americans backed the Mujahideen against the Russians just like they backed Saddam's Iraq against Iran. Sections of the Mujahideen later morphed into the Taliban - just as in U.S. eyes Saddam apparently morphed into a danger to the West.
Allegiances change depending on what's at stake for individual countries. For the same reason, the U.S. seems to think it can succeed where Russia (and many before) have failed, and that's why it is presently chasing the Taliban up hill and down crevice in one long and tragic game of hide and seek.

*I'm fascinated by the fact that most of the funding for Muslim extremist organisations emanates from Saudi Arabia, yet they are great pals of successive U.S. Administrations...*

No need to remain confused any longer, Poirot, for the explanation
in both Saudi and Pakistan, is fairly simple.

No nation is made up of a homogeneous mindset, they are made up of
people of very different opinions and religious beliefs.

Take Israel for instance. You have your orthodox jews with the funny
hats, they think and believe quite differently to your secular jews.
In fact, within Israel itself, there is constant conflict between
the two.

It is no different in Saudi Arabia. You have those with extreme
religious beliefs, those who don't. Pakistan is the same.

When Saudi Arabia was formed, a deal was done between two tribes,
the Sauds and the Wahabs. The Sauds would run the economy, the Wahabs
would run the religious side of things, ie their extreme version
of Islam.

So there is a constant compromise between the two, to keep local
politics in order. The King is a Saud, very much pro America, but
he makes sure that the Wahabs receive adequate funding, to bankroll
the growth of Wahabi Islam around the world.

In Pakistan you have the same extremes. Its no different in America,
where you have your bible belt fanatics, all the way to your secular
Americans. Whatever Govt is in power, hardly ever reflects the views
of all the population.

Hi Yabby

So would I be right in surmising that the pro-American Sauds give money to the Wahabs so that they can fund anti-American extremists?....glad you cleared that one up - sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Looks like my case just got unrested.

What is evident is as we permit our fears to grow so does our list of permissibles, it is just a base human instinct. That is why we have things like the Geneva Convention and International Law. We recognise that to behave in a civilised manner we need to think about and codify constraints on our behaviour particularly in times of stress. To abandon them is to act in an uncivilised and illegal manner.

Through our fear some of us have decided that torture is now permissible.

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting those who have come to the aid of the injured and dying is now permissible.

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting a man's home and killing his wife and children is now permissible.

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting a school is now permissible.

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting a mosque is now permissible.

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting a gathering of villagers for a religious festival is now permissible.

Of course all of this targeting occurs remotely, out of harms way.

When can we call ourselves cowards?

Dear Poirot,

Your point to Belly was spot on. One of the men I mentioned earlier who was targeted in a drone strike was Jalaluddin Haqqani. Originally bankrolled by the CIA to fight the Soviets he was described by a US Congressman Charlie Wilson (who was played by Tom Hanks in a recent film about Wilson's support the Mujahideen) as “goodness personified”. He became the Justice Minister in the Mujahideen government.

Just before the fall of Kabul he deflected to the Taliban and served as their military commander north of Kabul. He has been invited by President Hamid Karzai to become Prime Minister of Afghanistan.

Now we have killed his wife and sister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jalaluddin_Haqqani

*So would I be right in surmising that the pro-American Sauds give money to the Wahabs so that they can fund anti-American extremists?....*

Poirot, if only life were so simple. Its far more complicated then
that. Wahhabs run the religious police in SA, they also fund the
building and staffing of mosques around the world etc.

But all good Muslims are meant to give a % of their incomes to
charity and some of these charities do in fact support yet
another school, called the Qutb school, which is the one followed
by bin Laden, Al Zawahiri and the Taliban. Sayd Qutb was an
Egyptian, whose interpretation of Islam is indeed a violent one,
calling for the overthrow of the West, in particular America, and
the dominance of Islam globally. So even you would be wearing
a Burqa :)

In Saudi Arabia, any followers of the Qutb school are soon jailed
as terrorists, for of course their aim is to overthrow the Sauds
and gain control of the oil wells. Bin Laden reckons that without
oil, the West would soon be on its knees. He has a valid point
actually.

But all this does not prevent some Saudis from sending money to
the Taliban etc, through various charities.

It really depends on the ideology of the individual.

Drones have no honour

Gamers are not warriors

Fear is no excuse

As I sat here this morning I am aware murders have yet again been commited in Pakistan over night.
We here must except,the world is not always a nice place.
If it was my task to find wrong, even evil, in ANY COUNTRY in the world it would not be hard.
And I am not a member of the very left, KNOW WITHOUT DOUBT I live in the new left.
A left that understands yesterday was a different era different people different problems.
if any change is possible it must be execptable to most people.
Not one of us will get every thing he/she wants out of any government/system.
And compromise is the best we can hope for.
Instead of high lighting those country's the left targets for wrong why not target the good.
America constantly looks at its self, breeds conspiracy theory's, every day it looks in wards.
Saudi Arabia both supports and fights terrorism.
Our country too is not clean, leaders from both sides crawled,still do to Indonesia after brutal murders of our news men, even now when torture is being used on people who never in history part of that country.
Find the good in radical Islam.
Find way the west can fight against such hate and disregard for humanity without these things happening.
And tell me, why this thread constructed for one reason, can overlook those killed are more likely than not combatants that murder without care.
Islamists lie, the left too, one horrible day another terrorist mass murder will happen in the west maybe here.
Some one day will hope no one ever sees these comments.
It will not be me, be aware goody's do not always win wars

It would appear rather than being an aberrant attack the incident that occurred in my original post where rescuers coming to the aid of the dead and dying were targeted seems to be a strategy that has been adopted by the CIA.

« June 18th in Raghzai, South Waziristan, a U.S. drone fired two missiles into a compound, killing one person. Immediately, locals rushed to the scene to rescue wounded survivors. The drone, still hovering over the area, seized the opportunity and fired an additional two missiles at the villagers who were attempting to attend to the wounded, killing 12 more people, 13 in all. It was suspected that "Taliban commander," Wali Mohammed, may have been the initial target of the attack. Mohammed was reportedly not in the compound. »

I have found two more 'permissables'.

« On Tuesday, June 23, 2009, hundreds of Pakistanis attended a funeral in the Makeen district of South Waziristan for a suspected Taliban leader who was killed in a drone strike earlier that morning. Towards the end of the funeral as people were giving their last prayers, three missiles were fired from at least two U.S. drones directly into the crowd of mourners. Various reports put the death toll at roughly 70-80 people. Conservative estimates suggest that at least 35 of the dead were local villagers, among them ten children between the ages of 5-10 years old and four local tribal elders. Doctors told journalists and reporters that "most of the injured brought to them were [elderly] people."[56] According to one report at least 45 civilians were killed.[57] Another account suggested that "mostly civilians were killed in the strikes." Every report agrees on the fact that no prominent or significant militant leader was harmed in the attack. « 

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting a funeral is now permissible.

Cont'..

Cont..

« On Tuesday, May 19, 2009 three travelers passed through the village of Khaisor in North Waziristan. In keeping with traditional tribal area hospitality, local villagers served them a meal. Upon finishing their food, the travelers promptly moved on and left the village. These travelers happened to be members of the Taliban. U.S. drones, which routinely conduct surveillance flights of the area, apparently made note of the presence of the three Taliban men. At 4:30 a.m. the following morning (May 20th) a drone bombed the homes of the villagers who fed the men, ultimately "killing 14 women and children and two elders, [and] wounding 11." »

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16539

Through our fear some of us have decided that targeting villagers who offer any aid to the enemy is now permissible.

One has to wonder just when do we get to the point where it is just one 'permissable' too far. At what point does the humanity present in all of us rise above the fear?

To hear not one word of condemnation of these bombings by some of the posters here I feel the answer may be a long time coming.

I also feel there will be one day some who hope no one ever sees these comments because when the law finally catches up with the perpetrators those who were complicit in their support will have to face the approbation of the rest of us.

Yes we do have opinions, and they are going to be different, often.
But lets look at some put here,yes America once funded one, probably tens of hundreds it now fights, SO?
People change sides in these country's every hour,and that thieving head of state wants to appoint him? we would be better if a drone targeted both.
So drones are killing? very well so are bombs knives and not just in Pakistan/Afghanistan/Iraq.
I think this thread wobbles like a jelly, it started by saying Americans using drones killed Innocent people, unable to prove that it seeks to hide in a world that dose not exist.
We see quote about a convention that has been ignored by country's like these for every day it existed.
Remember,, a God is said to issue laws here not man, and too our lives are far less respected than his followers.

Aiding the enemy makes you an enemy, I would not be soft on these taliban or their friends.
This mob need to be cleaned up for the good of the world.

They say it’s a blessing to have hindsight. It’s also a blessing to be able to view things from afar –like, the comfort of your armchair.

It's very easy sitting in 2011, wise with hindsight, to declare the US foolhardy for support the mujahideen . But one needs to be mindful of the issues of those times: communism controlled 1/3 of the world and probably had influence over another 1/3, there was no telling how much further it would expand– it had ambitions to.The support for the mujahideen was just one of a thousand little schemes the US was using to contain the enemy of the period, some of those schemes led to successes, some, like the support for the mujahideen laid the groundwork for future troubles.

We live in an age where armchair experts --- inebriated with hindsight and a sense of their own moral purity-- seek to denigrate everything Western.

To adapt CSteele’s little quip: what is evident is as [ their detachment from reality increases] so does [their list of prohibitions]:
Thou shalt not use drones.
Thou shalt not subject enemy combatants to discomfort.
Thou shalt not notice that most bomber tend to come from one group (profile).
They shalt not prosecute illegal immigrants who blow-up their boats.
Thou shalt not rescue navy personnel before they rescue the saboteurs.

All sound eminently “civilised”, if your sharing a chardonnay around a dinner table (esp after the fifth glass), but when applied in a world where thugs and con-men rule – they are an invitation for disaster.

Another aspect of this moral purity is, their equating of any association with Pakistan or Saudi as akin to aiding and abetting fundamentalism —and lack of principle.However, I suspect in a different thread –lets say something dear to their hearts, like, Robert Mugabe’s Zimbabwe – such people would be campaigning for us to leave the door open, for compromise and gradualism.

And Yabby make a highly pertinent point:
“No nation is made up of a homogeneous mindset, they are made up of
people of very different opinions and religious beliefs”

SPQR,

Referring to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, my query to Yabby was more in the line of, "What are the criteria among the many critical players in the Middle-East as to who is admitted to the Friends of America Club - as opposed to who is admitted to the Enemies of America Club?"

As far as Zimbabwe goes, it was never in any danger of U.S. intervention. According to Noam Chomsky it only fulfills the first of the three necessary requirements to be the target of a "preventive war".
1. The country must be virtually defenceless
2. The country must be important enough to be worth the trouble.
3. There must be a way to portray it as the ultimate evil and an imminent threat to our survival.

Poirot
I would be most interested in hearing how Saddam Hussein’s Iraq fulfilled criteria 1;How Serbia –Kosovo fulfilled 1 & 2 ; How Grenada fulfilled any of the three?

But I guess he left himself an out with the qualification: "preventive war".

I think you have made a strong case csteele and thank you Poirot for your always incisive posts. This is far than important than party politics or political philosophy, its about the social fabric. We a ripping and tearing away at it, in a grotesque parody of the values we claim abhorrent.

Why can't we take stock for a moment and take at look at our own actions with balance,
and if your looking for a gung-ho reason to object to drones Shintaro has provided it.

Imagine the next media action blockbuster with Silvester Stallone and and the Terminator,
they sit their playing cards and making wisecracks while a remote machine does all the dirty work.
Now there's something you can hang your hat on.
I've even come up with a title "No Heroes in Hell".

P.S. wouldn't one atomic detonation have been sufficient deterrence for the Japanese?, at the end of the WW2. I rest my my case in relation to military excess.

And as for Agent Orange, don't get me started.

There is a salient point being made by SPQR but not one I feel is offered intentionally. It is that we are living our armchair existence here in Australia and refusing to condemn the actions of an ally with whom our soldiers are fighting in a far off land but conducting itself in a manner contrary to conventions we have signed up to. Our justification? We are scared, scared enough to not only turn a blind eye but to turn also on those who have the temerity to question what it occurring.

If fear is the justification we are using how much more justification does an Afghan or person living in the Tribal Areas have for their actions? If I go to a funeral, or a church, or an religious festival, or a school, or to my home to be with my family I do not fear death from the air yet these people live with it on a daily basis.

Belly, SPQR and all others who refuse to condemn or even question the CIA's drone warfare with its evident cost in civilian lives are condoning what is being done in their name. Yet at what cost? I have been accused of denigrating the West (even though I have been at pains to keep the bulk of my posts specifically addressing the drone strikes in Pakistan) but I am attempting to defend what I believe to be hard won Western values that I have always been proud to espouse.

These included an abhorrence of those who torture, those who target civilians in warfare, those who conduct extra-judicial killings, those who fail to follow the Geneva Convention.

It is those values that I am defending while those mentioned above are denigrating them. I repeat I am seeing the moral capital of my country and that of America pissed up against the wall and it is making me increasingly furious.

This is not who we are. We have been far better than this and can be again. It is a price we should no longer be prepared to pay.

There is a verse in the Koran, Csteele, which basically implies
that the ends justify the means. So that is how the Taliban can
justify just about anything and largely get away with it.

They certainly don't respect the Geneva Convention, or their soldiers
would be in uniforms. We would avoid much of the problems, but
instead they try to use our weaknesses, to win in their way.

Turning the other cheek is not the best of strategies in a war,
I can assure you. I don't blame the Australians, nor the Americans
for not employing it, as you seem to suggest that they should.

Drones are used on the Afghan-Pakistan border, for they are by far
the most effective weapon at liquidating terrorists. These are
areas where even the Pakistani army fears to tread.

I remind you why we are there. Clinton tried to blow up bin Laden
in an Afghan training camp, after it became clear that Al Queda were
implicated in bombing US embassies in Africa, with hundreds dying.
He missed, by a matter of hours. Perhaps he did the wrong thing,
advising Pakistan that he was about to fire missiles.

Next the US asked the Taliban to hand over bin Laden, after Al Qaeda
attacked America, killing thousands. The Taliban refused.

That left the US no choice but to hunt him and his cohorts down,
wherever they may be, for otherwise more attacks on the West could
be expected.

There is no evidence that civilians are purposefully being killed.
Yes there is evidence that some civilians are being killed as
collateral damage, that is the sad side effect of war.

Handing Afghanistan back to the Taliban, is hardly an option.
Tribal leaders in the area are of course free to hand over the
Al Queda members like Zawahiri and bin Laden if he is still alive.
There would then be no need to use drones to kill them.

Given that Zawahiri continues in his intent to destroy the West,
there is no other option really, but to knock him out first, before
he creates any more-damage.

thinker 2, "P.S. wouldn't one atomic detonation have been sufficient deterrence for the Japanese?, at the end of the WW2. I rest my my case in relation to military excess."

No, following Hiroshima there was stony silence from the Japanese high command who speculated that the US only had one big bomb. The Japanese were well prepared for any attempted invasion, which would have easily resulted in a minimum of a million US servicemen casualties and twenty million Japanese deaths through suicide alone. The Japanese high command were convinced by the losses they had already inflicted on the US at Iwo Jima and elsewhere in the Pacific that they could inflict massive casualties and if ordered by them their own people, soldier and civilian, would choose death before surrender.

The detonation of the second bomb convinced the Japanese high command that the US probably had more nuclear bombs (and they were right!), so they capitulated.

In fact the US was reluctant to use the bombs and when it did so, it was measured. Plainly you needed to rest your case on facts not on anti-US prejudice.

Csteel you will not defend the western values down on your knees blind folded to the other sides reality's.
Thinker 2 ,why did you post that about ww2 and the second city?
In fact America knew Japan was preparing to fight, every child every woman, to the death.
After the first bomb, even before it, surrender calls went out.
As you should know,Japan had lied, told its population Americans would rape and murder, [not unlike some today really].
After refusal to surrender, only then,bomb two was sent.
Japan may well have still not given in, Russia invading parts of China, taking massive ground, may have been the reason Japan gave in.
Like modern Japan, your one sided view on those bombs neglects to observe the primitive actions ,inhuman ones, that that country did.
I challenge the left of my childhood, the dream I shared,to confront the nightmare ,the reality it has become.
We are seeing concerns at a military weapon in use,but nothing for the victims past present and future for increasing parts of a religion that has gotten far away from the ideals of equality freedom and my old wasted years in the dream time left, I grew out of it, women came to equality not enforced slavery.
If the left is honest it must confront its directions.
Americas sins in that area are more than matched by those the left whimpers for.

How many posting here have been strategists in war or served in arresting or destroying an enemy of the people? Let them propose a strategy to capture an enemy without loss of life of our soldiers or police without involving some assumed innocent friends of the enemy.

Too many arm chair critics and no action men.

Let me tell you about a recent action man.

He was faced with a group who were intent on ripping his country apart, who had deployed bombs within his towns and cities, who were deemed terrorists by a neighboring country and who had killed many of the soldiers he had sent against them. There were whole villages that were no go areas for his troops and whose inhabitants were giving aid to the enemy.

He did not want to have any more of his men killed so he employed the obvious weapon, perfectly legitimately by the position taken by some of the posters here, he gassed them.

His name was Saddam Hussein.

In the last three posts,look no further, you can see evidence why I grew out of the lost left.
I still till I die will believe in freedom for all, fair wages, center left governments before all others.
I still care , more than that hurt, fight, dream, for womens equality in the middle east and country's ruled in the name of their God.
But see the humanization of Saddam? see our threads author forgetting his mountain of crimes against his people?
He was said to be off the left, was but a left bathed in the blood of his opponents.
In one post C,steel took my case shined it and hung it for all to see, the left has long ago lost site of truth honesty and balance.
The other 2 posts? clearly show while we all can express opinions some have no idea what they are on about.
Tell me, the mountain of dead killed by this tyrant are not the subject of as much anger for the very left?

csteele,
Are you supporting the action we took to remove Saddam Hussein? Or is he one of your heros? Your post seems to post him as a hero.

///There is a salient point being made by SPQR///

No, you miss my salient point, CSteele : I’m not objecting to criticism ; I’m objecting to dishonest criticism:
You imply the use of drones is “contrary to conventions” the US has signed --it is not.
You imply the US is systematically targeting civilians – there is no evidence of this.

You seem eager to believe any account that paints the US in a bad light:
“Three travellers passed through a village …these travellers happened to be members of the Taliban …US drones…made note of the presence ….the following morning …a drone bombed the homes of the villages”
There are a dozen possible explanations for this incident –yet you and your source, chose the conspiracy and murder line.

Definitely, there are civilian causalities – here’s a few clues as to why:
1)The militants conscript--or dress as women themselves –to sneak past checkpoints and deliver bombs.
2)The militants conscript children for the same –even on at least one occasion, a mongoloid child.
3)They have hidden weapons and training camps inside mosques and schools or in residential suburbs.
And when the inevitable occurs they squeal like scolded pigs: “woman/children targeted!”.

And if by chance it doesn’t happen—they just fake it:
I recall seeing video (captured by drone!) of militants , in the Arab-Israeli theatre, filling stretchers with pretend wounded, complete with bandages covering pretend wounds, designed to fool the Western media.

And here’s another you might remember:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpI12vvntnE

You seem to think it’s all about the US cleaning up its act. It wouldn’t matter if the US was squeaky clean, you’d still be finding atrocity reports, because the militants play the spin game:
--- Accounts that are for the consumption of those aspiring to a bourgeois life, are all about tribesmen trooping peacefully from village to village pursued by murderous drones that
target poor civilians, who offer them traditional hospitality.
--- Accounts that are for the consumption of those aspiring to a higher abode ( & houris), are all about blowing-up , burning, or beheadings .

csteele it appears in that post was trying to, well interpretations can differ but I think say we would condemn Saddam but not America.
In fact there is a great deal of difference.
Tell me this, if the west ,all of us, left these country's to them selves, came home stayed home.
Would terrorism stay there too.
Would those within even Iran who want a better life more freedom be better or worse.
Fighting without killing Poirot?
This is not world champion wrestling .
The fact is far too many think we are a primitive of shoot of humanity, that not believing in their God makes us, well read their holly book.
We too, yes many of us, are convinced they are primitive.
But if we lay down our weapons, give peace a chance [nice song but unrealistic] will they?
Would the cold war have been hot if one side disarmed? of course it would have.
Cultures life differences show clearly peace is not on every ones list.
I am not ever going to hear the lefts lost idea that we are the aggressors and who ever America fights is the good peace loving victim.

Belly,

It seems that the Americans "humanized" Saddam when it suited them despite concern for his regime's activities.
Individual countries tend to do what is in their economic interests and, therefore, there is no concrete morality. Grievous atrocities are conveniently overlooked if it suits the agenda of the day. This is evident in this article detailing Donald Rumsfeld's meetings as U.S envoy with Saddam Hussein in the early eighties.
It appears clear that although the U.S. was concerned about Iraq's use of chemical weapons and other human rights abuses, these issues were consistently downgraded in importance in favour of America's priorities which were "preserving access to oil and expanding U.S. ability to project military power in the region."
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/press.htm

I concede, if the Japanese refused to surrender after the first one then the 2nd one may have been necessary.

However, I am not being Anti-American.
But, it is only the Japanese, (whom have remained anti nuclear weapon since then) truly understand the horror of it.

The question is what do we think acceptable, could America instead of doing it again, have continued to negotiate for example.
History no doubt, would portray the historical persona of the Japanese as inflexible/fanatical and willing to die, man women and child: "for annihilation" as demonstrated by their reported refusal to backdown. Is this true?.

Is this Anti American or pro Japanese and why is that important in comparison to to the actual deed.
This this post is about the social fabric, their very basis upon which we decide the future. You have to start somewhere!.

Please excuse my stuttering everybody.(haha)

thinker 2, "But, it is only the Japanese, (whom have remained anti nuclear weapon since then) truly understand the horror of it."

Regrettably, the Japanese government has ensured that a well-laundered version of its history, especially in respect of WW2, is only available to its students and citizens. Japan remains a police state.

I join with you in stressing the importance of understanding, negotiation and diplomacy in reducing the likelihood of conflict, but alas as Wikileaks has shown, first we must ensure that our own government is responsible and accountable to us. That is the real struggle and priority for us. That is a non-political statement because none of the established parties puts the wellbeing and rights of Australian first before political populism and short term political advantage.

According to Belly, SPQR and others on this thread it would appear it is not the deed that condemns but who it is doing the deed. If the CIA target civilians it is justifiable but if Saddam does it then it is evil personified. It is not a tenable position to take as not only can they rightly be accused of being hypocritical but it debases their right to criticise.

I can legitimately condemn Saddam's actions in gassing the Kurdish villages and I do so with utter conviction that it transgressed my values, hopefully the values of my country and the values of much of the international community expressed through conventions and international law.

However by refusing to condemn the actions of the CIA in any of the examples I have used, to not question a single 'permissable', Belly and the others are left with little moral legitimacy with which to condemn the gas attack. Saddam in this instance fulfilled their criteria of a justifiable action, he did not fulfil mine.

His ghost is giving me an accusatory glare and is pointing his finger at them saying to me “At least they understand”.

They might but I do not.

I am heartened by the words of General Pertraeus;

“When we have taken steps that have violated the Geneva Conventions, we rightly have been criticized, so as we move forward I think it's important to again live our values, to live the agreements that we have made in the international justice arena and to practice those.”

It gives me hope that some time in the not too distant future there will be the will in this administration to correct this evil.

Thinker 2 I have always respected your posts, Poirot too and sometimes csteels.
But I need to highlight your post, you seem unaware of the events leading up to those bombs.
And as pointed out not informed about Japans neglect of the past.
Japan is intent on forgetting its past, it was a nation enslaved in the pre ww2 years.
Its people may not have felt slaves but not unlike North Korea they knew only what they had been allowed.
Militarists ran the country, but the Emperor was seen as a GOD doubt still exists the he was not the driving force behind Japans war.
Mass murders that can be researched are horrible and true.
In retaking the Philippines whole city's/populations suffered rape and murders, beyond anything the west has ever been changed with.
Japan refused to give up its emperor, it wanted him saved, wrongly believed Russia was its middle man.
Invasion of its Islands left massive deaths, American troops sailors and Japanese Civilians who killed them selves, women and children, told Americans would rape and kill.
Russia in fact knew via its spy's America had the bomb, and was waiting to get its hands on soil held by Japan, by invading Manchuria.
Knowing the massive deaths invasion would bring America dropped bomb one.
Continued.

After bomb one Japan thought America only had one bomb, stood firm against surrender, while trying to get Russia to intervene with America.
America knew it faced half a million casualty's if it invaded Japan, had plans for a 1946 invasion.
Some in Japans government ,few, wanted to surrender.;
Bomb two went, Russia invaded, the Emperor God said surrender, made a tape his own people tried to stop it ever being heard.
Japanese history is not teaching its people about the war the female prisoners made to be comfort women, constantly raped .
The deaths of prisoners of war by foul starvation and torture, mass murders of civilians.
It bleats about those bombs, ensnares some who only hear about humans on fire and deaths but they need to know what was behind them, both and that war is not kind or nice never has been but it is not going away while men divide them selves in the name of Gods.
Wikileaks is doing a good job,but consider this, if the actions of these terrorists are to become as openly seen as Americas I fear for those who see only bad in the USA and its supporters.
Not their lives just reputations, opinions are often based on only part of the story.

csteele,
I do not hear your equal criticisms of the innocent the Taliban diliberately target and murder.

In every operation or raid there may be uninvolved civillians unintentionaly injured or killed. Most terrorists have wives, families and friends. We would hope no innocent suffers but it is not the fact, but we do not deliberatly target unnarmed civillians as your friends the Taliban.

To target a funeral where it is obvious that there will be large numbers of woman, children and non-combatants present in order to kill one man is to target civilians.

It was a funeral for God's sake!

And you are condoning it!

And you guys are starting to wheel out the Bushian diatribe of 'those who are not fully with us are against us and are to be considered friends of the enemy'. Is this because you are bereft of answers?

And I am more than happy to condemn the Taliban for civilian deaths. One disturbing development was the over-ruling the Taliban's earlier code of conduct booklet "The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan's Rules for Mujahideen," which read in part; “"Every member of the Mujahideen must do their best to avoid civilian deaths, civilian injuries and damage to civilian property. Great care must be taken," and that "Suicide attacks should only be used on high and important targets. A brave son of Islam should not be used for lower and useless targets."

The booklet was part of a directive from Mullah Omar, titular head of the Afghan Taliban but according to a NATO spokesperson he has, since June last year, escalated attacks against civilians ordering “his men to specifically target NATO-led forces, capture or kill any Afghan who is supporting and working for international troops, capture or kill any Afghan women who are helping or providing information for foreign troops.”

But then it fits neatly in with 579's position posted earlier. I quote; “Aiding the enemy makes you an enemy, I would not be soft on these taliban or their friends. This mob need to be cleaned up for the good of the world.”

For interest, what does the Taliban's 'code of conduct' say about stonings?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html

Taliban and its like killed tourists in Bali, cut the throat of journalists, kills untold numbers of missing people.
We are reminded of a funeral shot up, but do we talk about Christan's murdered because they celebrated Christmas.
Or burnt to death in cars.
It is simple true, we re look at our mistakes and deaths that never should have happened , our enemy's give praise for them.
London, New York, Spain, France, Nordic nations, Holland, all have seen pure hate driven murders, lets stop the rubbish.
Asking us to obey rules the other side ignores is,,, well you tell me.
Kind hearted niceness and concern for killers is folly our deaths would be celebrated by them.
Tell me, any one, how will this growing problem end if not in war?

I'm sure many Muslims would be able to tick off instances of Western brutality one by one just like you did, Belly.
It's the age old conundrum of who is the most ruthless and immoral - us or them? (And depending on which side of the line you're on - the answer is always "them")
Seems to me that humankind as a species, for all its philosophies and self-professed "morality" is a most savage adversary. "Justification" is the balm we use to sooth our conscience of its weary load.

When you cannot change an enemies mind by reason to accept freedom for all; what is left to deal with an enemy?

Way of warrior

Is face to face, man to man

Drone is coward's way

Cornflower asks, “For interest, what does the Taliban's 'code of conduct' say about stonings?”

Answer; pretty much about the same as the Saudi Arabian code of conduct I would say.

http://www.lankatruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1325:two-sri-lankans-will-be-stoned-to-death-in-saudi-arabia-for-adultery&catid=35:local&Itemid=50

Probably the only thing thing more despicable about the Saudi case is the fact they are inflicting this barbaric practice on two people who are not even of their nationality. Actually I can think of two further reasons, the first is the fact that Afghanistan is a terribly poor country with limited educational resources so the opportunity for moving beyond customary tribal and religious law is obviously constrained compared to the Saudi society. The second is the fact that from all reports the Saudi ruling classes indulge in with impunity behaviours that would have the ordinary person or guest worker killed. I have not heard such reports about the Taliban leadership.

Yet who gets the full measure of our approbation? Certainly not the Saudis.

The Taliban did not bomb Bali nor can I ever recall them cutting the throats of any journalists though Belly I'm sure will enlighten me if there was one.

As for disappeared people you might want to talk with Gul Rahman's family.

And as Belly has asked “Asking us to obey rules the other side ignores is,,, well you tell me.”

Australian?

csteele,

You mentioned the Taliban's 'Code of Conduct' not I and since you appeared to be lauding it for its 'humanity' it was fair enough to confront you with the reality of the Taliban's evil deeds in Afghanistan. How you consider that an evil done by another Islamic country is relevant and somehow excuses or balances what the Taliban are doing goodness only knows, it defies logic. Here is the link again and you might address the question I asked this time,

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/17/world/asia/17stoning.html

You might also have cause to reflect that the presence of the Allies and specifically the US in Afghanistan has put a real damper on the horrid cruelty the Taliban previously inflicted on the population and on women in particular. However as the NY Times article shows, the Taliban are dead keen to get back to their dirty business of threatening and carrying out obscene acts of violence for claimed religious reasons.

Dear Cornflower, to paraphrase your good self if I may.

You mentioned the Taliban's action of stoning not I and since you appeared to be condemning it for its 'barbarity' it was fair enough to confront you with the reality of the Sameevil deeds in Saudi Arabia. How you consider that an evil done, but almost totally ignored, by this Islamic country is not relevant and yet the same deed done by the Taliban somehow excuses or balances what the CIA are doing in Pakistan goodness only knows, it defies logic.

Here is the link again and you might address the inconsistencies in your approach this time,

http://www.lankatruth.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1325:two-sri-lankans-will-be-stoned-to-death-in-saudi-arabia-for-adultery&catid=35:local&Itemid=50

csteele do you truly forget who trained in Afghanistan?
In an effort to add air to your torn and tattered balloon you forget the ties between killers in that part of the world.
Are we to forget the American Jew who was murdered by a man who said the hand he used was now blessed.
That poor attempt to get a point across with poor poetry is as handy as throwing feathers as weapons.
Man to man? hiding lieing, using children anything but open fighting is the Taliban way.
csteele it is you droning on and on, trying to sell water to Queenslanders, sand to Egyptians or peace on earth to the Taliban.

Civilians are killed –I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtg1pjnEW2c&feature=related

An ambulance was attacked —I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khqeDKtHXQE&feature=related

A school was targeted –I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&feature=channel

A moque was attacked-I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Zd55Zhj5gQ

A funeral was attacked –I wonder why?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgQLGYb9Xfo

Hamas, Hezbollah, the Janjaweed, Jemaah Islamiyah, and Al-Shabaab are all variants of the same virus, they employ similar tactics–all are masters of spin.

CSteele: "The Taliban did not bomb Bali nor can I ever recall them cutting the throats of any journalists though Belly I'm sure will enlighten me if there was one"

Consider yourself enlightened:
http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=48058

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101105/ap_on_re_as/as_pakistan

There you go Csteele, yet another of many bombings by the Taliban,
killing innocent civilians.

The list is endless, but of course we won't let all these killings
get in the way of a good story. Just blame the drones!

It still amuses me how some Westerners go on some kind of deep
guilt trip, not even able to show the least bit of objectivity.

The only way to stop these people is to make it a non profit activity to be one of the leaders.

These leaders stay well back from any personal fighting, behind many women & children.

When they find this doesn't protect them, & only then, will they stop sending their useful idiots to do their dirty work.

Guys my argument is simple and consistent. I am saying that the drone strikes by the CIA are against codified and customary international law and if you decide the deeds being perpetrated by the enemy are deemed to be so egregious that they warrant the cost to us as a society both in terms of our hard won moral values plus our security by spurring others to the fight then so be it but you need to be aware of the consequences.

However if we condone through lack of action those very acts being done unanswered by an ally then we lose what little moral justification we may still have and it just becomes a question of who will win the propaganda war.

I believe if the indiscriminate drone strikes by the secret services is what it takes to prosecute this conflict then the price is too high and we should get out.

Further I believe that far more attention needs to be given to Saudi Arabia, its role in funding these conflicts and terrorism, its treatment of its inhabitants especially its guest workers, and its horrendous religious fundamentalism.

Labelling those who point out the current inconsistencies as friends of the enemy does show a marked lack of objectivity.

American mice

Ignore international law

They have lost the war

Dear SPQR,

You are correct, even though Ajmal Naqshbandi's body was never recovered so the method of his murder remains in question, especially as the Taliban usually post video of their high profile executions, I would still say there is a fair chance he was beheaded.

What drew so much anger from the Afghan population was the fact that Hamid Karzai was prepared to release 5 Taliban Commanders in order to secure the release of the Italian reporter Daniele Mastrogiacomo who was captured with Ajmal but refused to release two more to save Ajmal's life.

Now while I see this as barbaric and deserving of condemnation I would be interested to know why some of you think the same. Was it because someone was executed? Well the US still does it. Was it the method? Saudi Arabia finds it acceptable.
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle.asp?xfile=data/middleeast/2005/April/middleeast_April113.xml&section=middleeast

I am against the state executing anybody but some of you may not be so squeamish.

Was it the fact that they were non-combatants? Mullah Dadullah, if he were alive would may well say he achieved a great strategic victory. He had five commanders returned including his brother, there were no women and children nor any of his own men killed in the exchange. In fact only three lives were lost and they were those who were taking a calculated risk attempting to make contact with the Taliban.

I find the whole episode sickening, horrifying and upsetting. But if we contrast this against what the CIA is prepared to do to remove one just commander from the battlefield then I'm not sure why some of you would be feeling as I do since you obviously condone sickening, horrifying and upsetting deeds as long as they are done in your name.

Being a civil libertarian doesn't seem to have any fundamental flaws as a political philosophy, does it Csteele . I think your spot on, and Poirot your posts a positively lateral.

And Belly I too respect your posts. In this instance you don't appear as secular as I perceived you to be, and may have a fundamental religious belief colouring your opinion on this one.

I understand how history portrays itself as justification for the present.

It's truth that is hard to find, particularly since Hitler invented propaganda by mass media. So on this one we will have to agree to disagree on this one, our mutual respect intact, hopefully?.

cheers

Thinker 2 I do at times have problems getting my reasons I Hold my views across.
My education is one of experiences and life's lessons, not formal.
I am the product of every thing I ever was or will be.
I swam in the lefts swimming pools, all of them.
My ideals and dreams from those days are not all dead, some continue to be my views today.
Do not discount me because of age, age is no reason for my views.
I still think any mass control of humanity, including your reference to Hitlers mind control, now a tool for EVERY COUNTRY, I see in every religion needless interference in humanity's progress, wellbeing and freedom.
I with every single nerve ending, think the true left and its fellow travelers MUST BE my enemy's.
I FEAR Labors fate, without burying forever Rudd's failure to produce any thing.
And with out distancing our selves, FOREVER from left extremism.
I see a blindness here ,tell me I am wrong, we will you know face a very hot war against Islamist Fascism, NOT Islam.
Yesterday, the day before, almost certainly today,if not tomorrow, deaths by murder took place.
The last was a human bomb in a market place.
17 murdered people.
csteele says drones are unlawful.
Good intentions good thoughts are wasted if only one side is to use them.
The left fought for freedom equality a better world, now it just fights America and its friend's.
I hold great hope how ever,I grew up, faced my mistakes, became part of the only party with a chance to change anything.
My country will fall if it stands alone in defending its self.
It will do just that if it withdraws in the green say from reality and truth.
My hope? in time the ALP will again value its voters,and in time the greens true radical nature will let many follow my path, get involved in true politics of achievable change.

Would not discount your experience/age Belly, I too have seen a lot of water under the bridge.

I'm not so sure that the object of Islamist Fascists is to expand their territory and influence,
but more to gain control over Govt in the countries where they exist.
I also believe that the need for fanatical vengeance, thankfully exists among a very small number of people, islamic or otherwise.

Musicians see a bit of the world Belly as well, and if I may indulge myself Belly by describing the imbalance
I see in the world via the lyric of one of my songs called "The Bubble",

What's the news on the cable by the hour
people throwing rocks at invading nuclear power
A big man sitting safely sipping whisky in a tower,
lights flame to a fuse,
you got nothing to lose except the world.

After all this time, I see only civil and social liberty as a political goal worth achieving.
We are over policed, under represented by Gov't, and under-informed too say the least.

I certainly and personally, don't feel need to be protected from myself, nor should others feel the need to be protected from me.
I think this is true of most people.

But we all need to be protected from that small percentage of people, whom feel the need to control the rest of us for our own good.
No matter which pulpit they mount, or story they tell.

As my dear old dad would say,"the trouble with people who seek power
is that usually, they're the one's least qualified to have it".

I like your dad too thinker 2.
I like also the fact you are what you are I love music but life has taken other directions for me.
I said my life made me the person I am ,it continues to do so.
Hopefully I will never again be hungry never watch my siblings be that way.
Not a flash bloke I am content to stay home and have a quite beer.
But you, me every one never gets it right all the time.
My thoughts are truly held, may not be right, but I think they are.
I see a much bigger threat in Islamic growth than you do.
Looking back I reminded by the Spanish Inquisition, awful acts in the name of a God.
IF we ,humanity, could only get away from the need to be controlled by God.
To hate and kill in that name.
If we ignore a threat, hope it will go away we are doomed.
These human bombs every one of them died and murdered for what?
What a great world it would be if we could be one human race.
I want the left to ask what about Iran's people, Chinas , north Korea's, Zimbabwe, who is crying for Burma?
I will not retreat from saying it, all my life I have been aware life is a tree,full off monkeys I stand under it on the ground looking up, your dad would have told you what the result is but honesty matters to me.

I don't think your old enough to reminded of the Spanish Inquisition Belly.(haha)

About a week before my dad passed away I was sitting and watching TV with him, something provocative or explicit was being promo'd (I think).

He turned and said to me "the way they carry on, you would think that sex had just been invented, wouldn't you?".

They carry on like lots of things are new, when they have always existed. New dilemmas new threats, new medical conditions with new drugs to cure them etc, even new drugs without a condition to cure but they'll find one.

I'm not sure whose driving anymore Belly and my faith in Labor is already gone. What's next nuclear power?. More mining in Kakadu?. The other side?, never had any faith in them.

Getting back to drones, I think that these sorts of things shouldn't be borne in silence and csteele is right to draw attention to the dis-humanity of it.

Dear thinker2,

On reflection I have probably arced up more than usual on this issue which wasn't the initial intention. Belly's comment “I have no problems with deaths of such folk.” was admittedly a spur from the start, but then this isn't something where one finds it easy to remain entirely objective. I promise to endeavour to do so forthwith.

From Wikipedia “Top US officials consider these strikes very successful and believe that the senior al-Qaeda leadership has been decimated by these strikes.” and that “They also claimed that the drone attacks have addled and confused the Taliban,”

One would assume then that both groups effectiveness and their ability to mount attacks would have been seriously diminished. The figures would not seem to support this.

Year – Number of people killed in drone strikes in Pakistan – Number of 'terror' attacks in Pakistan.

2004 – 4 – 18
2005 – 6 – 11
2006 – 23 – 16
2007 – 53 – 50
2008 – 263 – 68
2009 – 413 – 104
2010 – 595 – 148

It just seems a horrendous race to nowhere.

We know there have been numerous terror attacks where the reason given is the drone activity.

It would appear to be a rather nasty little merry-go-round. Drone attacks cause a rise in terror attacks. This increase gives justification for more drone attacks which in turn prompt more retaliation.

Where do we get off?

History thinker 2 does not have to be lived to be understood.
csteele I still and forever stand by my statements I have no problems with the deaths of these people or the use of drones.
History will show any one willing to look, war is not pleasant, ever.
It also is not uncommon.
From Russia's murders of the Polish officers in that forest, Germany's mass murders, history shows clearly we fight wars often and very bad, evil things take place.
I think, truly honestly, it is to much kindness, not backed by reality that lets the left see our sins, but not the other sides.
This world is no different than yesterdays.
Wars are fought for the same reasons or no reason.
No balanced informed person can single out these drones as the worst part of this war.
And let the light in please, we have a war coming , first terrorism but one day a dirty bomb may start a very hot one.
Life is maths, numbers , potential out comes, Labor Liberal take your pick but stop kidding your selves both sides are fenced in to their positions by voters opinions.
Labor and Liberals must distance them selves from greens middle class radicalism.
Labor is going to be removed for a generation if it fails to do so.
Greens then will be in the black hole they put Labor in.

Dear Belly,

You are obviously quite worried. It is hard to blame you then for the very entrenched views you have. I do however blame those who put them there, our politicians and media.

I have lived near a war zone as a teenager and been through several attacks, one when over a dozen were killed by Muslim rebels only 5 miles up the beach from us. I also remember being evacuated from my school because of another imminent attack. I spent two years in a military college where older school mates were killed in action.

I do not ever recall being as afraid as what I sense from you.

I do hope time may serve to give you peace.

Of course I know you were referring to history Belly it was just my poor attempt at a joke.
Apologies if I offended.

And I don't think you've arced up unnecessarily csteele. Drones are certainly not the worst abomination of war but I still think they rate up there if your talking about flagrant disregard for civilian casualties.

*Drone attacks cause a rise in terror attacks*

That is nothing more then your speculation, Csteele.

Fact is that the two have kind of evolved at a similar time,
the drones well after the terrorists.

The rot set in when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan.
The true believers assumed it must be Allah's will.
That is really when the Taliban were formed and became
active.

Their goals have now increased, from Afgahnistan to overthrowing
the Pakistani Govt. Religious fanatics are on the increase in
Pakistan, that is the reality.

I watched a sad interview with the editor of a Pakistani newspaper.
His best friend, another journalist, was shot dead by his bodyguard,
because the guard claimed that the journalist had blasphemed Islam
and so must be killed. The net result is that the press and people
in Pakistan, can no longer say what they think, or religious
extremists could well knock them off.

That is the problem with Islam really. At its core it is a violent
and intolerant religion and where Islam goes, it seems that violence
follows. Not all muslims, but certainly in places like Pakistan,
a growing number of them.

Violence and terrorism in Pakistan have grown as Islamic extremism
in Pakistan has grown. Drones or no drones.

csteele I respect your rights to your thoughts, can you respect my rights to mine?
Fear? I am afraid I am a silly old fella, not a fool but never afraid of anything.
I am not for a second going to let the enemy of truth POLITICAL CORRECTNESS control my views.
In wars the victors write history.
This is a war,America could have done better but no such rule or wishes exist on the other side.
Can you agree with that?
Muslim terrorists do not have intentions to obey our rules of war.
No offense thinker 2 you have my respect too but some times we all forget our words are not always shared by most.
Drones? lets have many more.

You make a compelling case Yabby, I must admit.

I think my main concern however is the proliferation of excessive behaviour by Gov't on our behalf and no doubt Belly,
"we have to accept as truth, that in every community there are extremists".

Given this inevitable fact, I understand that we have to protect ourselves from such people.

As was witnessed by the shootings occurring in the U.S. this week, the lunatic fringe does exist, the question for me is,
"how much do we let the LF effect, (or influence) the rest of us and our thinking?.

Was the emotive language and symbolism of the Tea Party movement contributory
to the outcome in this case ?. Have they gone too far, are we going too far ?. Is the desensitising process healthy?. Are we still initiating our own worst case outcomes for future generations to deal with, without learning or taking in to account the lessons learn't from the past ?.

These are the bigger questions !.

Yabbys story is one of ten thousand.
We now know in Pakistan this week a parliamentarian was murdered, by his body guard.
We know why, he supported change in a law calling for death for blasphemy!
Further we saw crowds gather to protest the arrest of the murderer.
We IGNORE, oh yes some do, all this pent up hatred all the zeal calling for western deaths.
The ignorance to others rights,to any rules of war not stated in their holy book.
And put the boot in to America for developing a weapon that can remove some without Americans being exposed to gutless hidden bombs.
We ignore, at our peril.

Dear Yabby,

Once you throw the rules out the window then the only way to judge actions is whether they are justified.

I want you to tell me the difference between the drone strike on the funeral I posted details of and the suicide bombing at the mosque you linked in your earlier thread.

Why is one deemed justifiable and the other the work of terrorists (I consider them both the work of terrorists because I look a little further than justification)?

Next you may disagree with my analysis of the reasons but you can not say the dramatic escalation of the for suicide bombings and drone strikes numbers occurred in anything but hand in hand.

I do agree with your comment that “The rot set in when the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan.” but it is well recognised it was because the Americans used the Mudjahideen to push out the Russians but then washed their hands of this poor country when the deed was done. Many well respected commentators acknowledge this. A large number are now with the Taliban.

You say “Violence and terrorism in Pakistan have grown as Islamic extremism in Pakistan has grown. Drones or no drones.” but to sustain this argument you would have to say that extremism has increased 10 fold in five short years.

Most estimates put the number of civilians to 'terrorists' suspects killed in drone strikes at between 10:1 to 50:1. Is that acceptable in your opinion?

Dear Belly,

I accept rather than respect the right of others to their thoughts when they are made public in a place like this forum. To truly respect it as a right would mean no effort should be made to disavow them of a particular viewpoint no matter how distasteful it might be.

I find “Drones? lets have many more.” distasteful and I accept it as your opinion but don't ask me to respect it nor a right to it, because I most certainly don't.

Lets see - “gutless hidden bombs” compared to missiles from drones piloted remotely from thousands of miles away – tell me the difference in their cowardness quota?

Earlier I posted the story of a "September 8, 2008 missile attack on a North Waziristan village. The drones fired at least five missiles at a religious school founded by Jalaluddin Haqqani—a Taliban leader (who was formerly financed by the CIA) and the official target of the U.S. attack. At least 17 people were killed with some estimates reaching as high as 23. Of those killed, at least eight were children. Haqqani's wife, sister, and sister-in-law were all killed as well.”

Why are you so afraid of this man that you condone the bombing of his house and the deaths of members of his family? What threat was he to you personally? During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan would you have applauded his efforts during that war? Isn't he still on a mission to rid his country of invaders? Why do you want to dance on his grave?

When you say “I am not for a second going to let the enemy of truth POLITICAL CORRECTNESS control my views.” can you understand that you are being the most 'politically' correct a person possibly could be. You have taken what the politicians have framed to us about the war in Afghanistan and become one of their most uncritical and ardent cheer leaders.

Dear thinker2,

Well the objectivity I promised didn't last long. Sorry.

*I want you to tell me the difference between the drone strike on the funeral I posted details of*

Csteele, the problem is that you are setting yourself up as judge
and jury here. Frankly neither of us know enough about the details
of this case, to have a well informed opinion. We just hear
rumours and speculation and often jump to false conclusions.

It is not in the interests of America or the CIA, to go killing
innocent civilians for no good reason. But in times of warfare,
judgements have to be made and sometimes they are not perfect.
That is the tragedy of war.

Alot of these decisions are lines in the sand. If Hitler could have
been taken out by a drone, with 300 people killed, would you accept
that or not? What about Pol Pot?

Violent Islam has grown in Pakistan, because it was adopted by the
Taliban, learned from the Qutb school, as followed by bin Laden,
Zawahiri and co, when they moved to Afghanistan, then Pakistan.

The Taliban themselves, originated in Afghan refugee camps, situated
in Pakistan. Before the Taliban, there was no Islamic ideology in
the area, preaching long beards, no music, no pictures, no girls
schools and all the other draconian dogma that goes along with
what is being preached and enforced today. Violent Islam is
part of what was introduced by the Arabs. That is why violence
is increasing. Zawahiri is at the forefront of preaching it.

If you are interested what they actually believe, ie an Islamic
takeover of the world, read Milestones by Sayd Qutb. Its online
for free. That might open your eyes as to what drives these people.

Dear Yabby,

You wrote "Csteele, the problem is that you are setting yourself up as judge and jury here. Frankly neither of us know enough about the details of this case, to have a well informed opinion. We just hear rumours and speculation and often jump to false conclusions."

Oh come on. Obfuscation is not becoming.

We do know there was a CIA drone strike on a funeral with hundreds of mourners at it and around 70 to 80 were killed. We also know the strikes at the mosques killed 70 odd so we have a similar 'body count'.

You had no problems condemning the mosque attacks because of the civilian deaths, why so shy now. Can't we just argue the merits based on the information in the links we both provided and take the reports as a given.

If you can not mount a decent argument about the justifications or lack of for either attack then can't we assume if are you so critical of one but so uncritical of the second it is because your viewpoint is jaundiced?

*We do know there was a CIA drone strike on a funeral with hundreds of mourners at it and around 70 to 80 were killed. We also know the strikes at the mosques killed 70 odd so we have a similar 'body count'.*

But Csteele, you don't know the importance of anyone within that
group, to the CIA or America. You are a mere onlooker, guessing.

But even you would have to concede, that it is not in the interests
of the CIA or the US, to kill civilians mindlessly. So why would
they do it?

The same principle does not apply to Taliban killings. Being Shia
is enough, to justify their claims. Shia after all, are regarded
are not regarded as real muslims by them. There is no reason not
to kill them.

BTW it was not me who posted any link to any website that you are
referring to, so we can establish that at least your memory is
clearly flawed :)

Dear Yabby,

Sorry just got the phone back to reply.

My memory? I would think not.

"Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 8 January 2011 10:03:02 AM"

Ouch ;)

Let's try and stay on track. We are specifically comparing two instances. You seem to be saying there may well have been a compelling strategic reason for the drone attack, well why not for the attack on the mosque and if so why are they not comparable and worthy either of equal condemnation or equal acceptance of this type of warfare?

csteele just wondering, Pakistan in the news again this morning.
Car bomb killed 20 outside a police station.
Will it be ok if America uses car bombs?
Puts them in market places to kill civilians?
How about capturing a few ,sometimes innocents and cutting their throats on TV?
And what is some children can be told how good heaven will be and sent to destroy both themselves and others.
America just maybe must adopt its enemy's views on fair warfare.

Oops Csteele, I did in fact post a link on this thread,
sorry. Taliban killings of civilians are so common, they
are not even worth remembering, it seems.

There is a big difference between the two, Csteele.

The Taliban have no qualms about killing civilians who
disagree with them, they are not considered real muslims.

Not so for the US. It is not in their interest to kill
civilians, why would it be? The US is trying to let
democracy prevail, something which the Taliban are fighting
tooth and nail, threatening voters with death, if they decide
to vote.

The big difference here is that Western military wear a uniform,
they make clear targets. Not so for Al Quaeda and Taliban
commanders, who hide amongst civilians as camaflague.

That makes locating their military leaders, so much more difficult,
which plays right into the hands of Taliban spin merchants,
such as yourself.

Dear Belly,

There is ample evidence the the same organization that is conducting the drone strikes funded car bombings, a bomb in a cinema, a school bus, etc in an attempt to help destabilize Saddam's regime.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/politics/09ALLA.html?pagewanted=print&position=

Dear Yabby,

I repeat, "we are specifically comparing two instances. You seem to be saying there may well have been a compelling strategic reason for the drone attack, well why not for the attack on the mosque and if so why are they not comparable and worthy either of equal condemnation or equal acceptance of this type of warfare?"

If as it appears the question is too difficult for you to directly engage in then I understand because it is the consequence of the contradictory views you hold.

But Csteele, it seems beyond you that their goals are quite
different. One is to kill innocent civilians who happen to disagree
with your religion. The other is trying to take out military
commanders, sometimes surrounded by civilians as camoflauge.

If you don't understand the difference between the two, well then
I can't really help that, but the difference is massive.

No doubt that seeing Lebanon is now under the control of terrorists an increase in rocket fire in to Israel will follow.
No doubt csteele will find no reason to complain about that.
Dreadful to think , but I have no doubt sadly, one day we will see our enemy's as they are not as some wish to say they are.
America, maybe every country over there kills innocents by accident, Taliban and its Friends kill for rewards in heaven.
Surely we know that much?

Are things that simplistic Belly?, are the majority of people in the Muslim world that simplistic. I don't think so. If the Taliban were part of the political process, "how many Pakistani's or Afghani's would actually vote for them in truly free and fair elections?".

I don't think a majority would. And as far as religion goes, I think we should tax religious institutions of any colour like we do the rest of us. Let's see how many people are interested in booking a seat to the afterlife after that. Religion is a pre science concept.

Having expressed my belief, I wouldn't criticise the views of others to believe what they will, as long as that doesn't involve enforcing those views upon the rest of us.

It is a social and civil liberty, "to harbour religious belief". Even if it carries little credibility for most people since the advent of scientific understanding about the world around us.

And Yabby harsh, very harsh.

Dear Yabby,

Let me try and break this down a little for you.

The CIA drone strike on the funeral did not result in the death of any significant Taliban or Al Queada figures. You are correct in saying we do not know who they were targeting but if they were we do know they were not successful as the CIA are normally quick to promote their 'kills'. Would they have known that civilians would be part of the target? Of course they did and 10 children died as a result.

The Taliban strike on the mosque you posted was frequented by a pro-government militia that had been warring with the Taliban in the area. They regularly met at this mosque on Fridays. As with the CIA the suicide bomber missed his target as the group were not there on this particular Friday.

The town of Darra Adam Khel where the attack took place is almost entirely devoted to making and supplying arms to the NWF region. Most of those attending the mosque would have been engaged in this trade. It is off bounds to foreigners.

For the Taliban leadership this would this not have appeared to be a justifiable strategic target? Certainly by the slack you are prepared to cut the CIA you would think so too. Unlike a funeral women and children are separated from the men in these mosques so the blast would mainly have claimed males from a certain age.

Under your rules why is one action more reprehesible than the other?

Dear Belly,

Now come on, you still haven't retracted your “Will it be ok if America uses car bombs?” statement which for someone who claims to know a little history is a touch fraught don't you think?

As we are talking of car bombs and Israel it is worth reflecting that the first car bombs used in Palestine were by the Zionist groups.

And speaking of Lebanon one particularly infamous CIA directed car bombing episode, authorised and farmed out by the then director William Casey, was the attempt on Hezbollah leader Sheikh Fadlallah.

“In March 1984, a large car bomb was detonated about 50 yards from Sheikh Fadlallah's house in Bir El-Abed, a crowded Shiite neighborhood in southern Beirut. The sheikh wasn't harmed, but 80 innocent neighbors and passersby were killed and 200 wounded. Fadlallah immediately had a huge "MADE IN USA" banner hung across the shattered street, “
http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/76824/

Casey, with Reagan's endorsement then went on to promote and secure the training of thousands of Mujahideen and foreign fighters in Afghanistan in the black arts of car bomb making.

Steve Coll in his book Ghost Wars writes “"Under ISI direction, the mujahedin received training and malleable explosives to mount car-bomb and even camel-bomb attacks in Soviet-occupied cities, usually designed to kill Soviet soldiers and commanders. Casey endorsed these despite the qualms of some CIA career officers."

Mike Davis writes “As a result, most of the billions of dollars that the Saudis and Washington pumped into Afghanistan ended up in the hands of radical Islamist groups sponsored by the ISI. They were also the chief recipients of huge quantities of CIA-supplied plastic explosives as well as thousands of advanced E-cell delay detonators. It was the greatest technology transfer of terrorist technique in history.”

This is the group you won't hear a bad word spoken about?

You talk of truth but then run a million miles from it. I await your response with interest, more of the same highly blinkered view or will you surprise me?

*Under your rules why is one action more reprehesible than the other?*

To me its quite straight forward, Csteele. I actually support
democracy as the way to establish who should run the Govt,
not those who want to enforce their rule of law by violence.

At the end of the day, they vote in Pakistan and they are trying
to establish democracy in Afgahnistan. Its not easy, but they
need to start somewhere.

If the Taliban want to rule Pakistan and Afgahnistan, let them
stand at elections and convince the majority, that their way
of life is the way to go. If most Pakistanis want to live under
Taliban rule, so be it, as far as I am concerned.

But shooting and bombing their way to the top, is not the way to
do it.

As far as the CIA drone attack goes, you and I don't know all the
details, so we can't really judge. Were the CIA misled for instance?
Were they told that some important Al Queda leader would be there,
when this was not the case? We just don't know, so can't really
judge. Life is these parts is full of intrigue, paybacks, and
double dealings.

What I do know that its not in the CIAs interest to go and bomb
civilians, without an extremely good reason. So why would they?

That same principle does not apply to the Taliban, who do not
have to answer to Western scrutiny. Being Shia instead of a
Taliban supporter, is enough to get your throat slit.

It's all very well to spruik about the desire to bring democracy and freedom to the "chosen" countries of the Middle-East in the name of altruism.
However, if we go back a bit and look at the history of the region, we find that democracy was not quite so highly prized as we are led to believe it is today.
Check out the detail of the CIA engineered coup in Iran in 1953 - it's an interesting read, detailing as it does U.S. and British collusion to dismantle democracy. The knock-on effects are still with us...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

Yabby we can both learn from this thread, I try every day to learn something.
While you and I are from opposite sides of politics it is true that from both sides a view is shared by most.
John Howard knew that, it made him a very successful leader,until workchoices he was unbeatable.
I came from the hungry left.
No shame in that,but am not unhappy to have grown out of it.
I was once guilty of the very sins I charge a few conservatives here with.
An inability to see the wrongs in my side.
We youthful working left wanted CIA to pay for its murders in Chile, still think it would be a good idea.
Understood but ignored the big fella took them on by asking what was in that installation in your state, and the he paid for it when the dirty tricks got him out.
The Australian Labor Party had problems it could not govern while the true left was infecting it with marginal policy's no one wanted.
That remains true.
Todays lost left has power only here on the web, much noise from small numbers, and in the Senate.
An inability exists, to see the other side,you and I will never ever convince them, war is not nice.
I still like some in the left still share their views sometimes.
But I remember this wild young man and the death of my blindness to the crimes against humanity I once ignored.
Dream on folks but middle Australia is concerned only with our troops deaths, not those of murderers.
I csteele without reserve support America using any weapon to fight these monsters.
And Poirot I have high regard for you but what next?
Are you too going to remind me about the crusades?

Belly,

Would you deny that those events are not still pertinent to the the West's relationship with Iran? My point in venturing back to the fifties was to demonstrate that although the activities undertaken by the CIA in the current conflict are sanctioned and justified in many eyes because it is an agency supposedly working to bring about freedom and democracy - that wasn't the case in Iran where it sought to destroy democracy because it got in the way of American interests.
The reality is that the CIA is an instrument that forges the economic interests of America - and those interests are bound up in unfettered access and influence to the oil-rich regions of the Middle-East.

Dear Belly,

Let me get this straight, when the Mujahideen were using all the car bomb skills taught and financed by the CIA and ISI to attack the Russian invaders of their country and other targets you called them freedom fighters, now that many of the same have joined the Taliban and using the same techniques to attack the latest invaders of their country they are suddenly terrorists deserving of indiscriminate bombings from the air?

You will need to tell me why that isn't a morally bankrupt position to hold.

As to your statement “I csteele without reserve support America using any weapon to fight these monsters.” would this include the type of gas attack employed Saddam Hussein?

You are exhibiting a form of tribalism (although I would venture it identifies more with the US than Australia), nothing wrong with that as many do as well, especially the less informed, but you should at least recognise it as such.

I would only hope that in your quieter moments you might reflect on how terribly we have treated this blighted country and perhaps, as I do, believe we should raise our standard of behaviour there above the base level it is at at the moment.

Dear Yabby,

You wrote; “As far as the CIA drone attack goes, you and I don't know all the details, so we can't really judge. Were the CIA misled for instance? Were they told that some important Al Queda leader would be there, when this was not the case? We just don't know, so can't really judge.”

Of course we should judge, it was a bloody funeral for God's sake! If they were so sure of their target and that this was the only chance they had of murdering him then he should be dead. He isn't. All the evidence shows this as a little more than a pot shot. The Geneva convention prohibits this type of action, it should not have happened.

As an Australian I was very proud of one young RAAF pilot who refused to attack a target because in the words of Brigader Hannan "In this case the pilot ... decided that the information didn't support the justification for the use of the weapon and aborted the mission."..."The crew's decision reflects the ADF's strong commitment to the laws of armed conflict and its support of the Government's targeting policy, right down to the lowest levels."

In that war we also refused to attack civilian targets including key bridges, dams and other vital infrastructure. We also refused to have anything to do with and mines or cluster bombs, both weapons used extensively by the US.

These are Australian and international values I want to see upheld, you and Belly seem to want to sneer at them and call them unrealistic.

*Of course we should judge, it was a bloody funeral for God's sake! If they were so sure of their target and that this was the only chance they had of murdering him then he should be dead.*

So what if it was a bloody funeral? When you are hunting somebody,
you don't worry about such trivia. Yes, he should be dead, unless
they were duped by informants who had another agenda, in the game
of intrigue which goes on there. Clearly the CIA are not as skilled
as we often think, or a whole group of their agents would not have
been duped and blown up, for trusting the wrong guy, as recently
happened.

*As an Australian I was very proud of one young RAAF pilot who refused to attack a target*

Well that is wonderful Csteele. But history is full of examples of
people not being perfect and making bad judgement calls. I assume
that the CIA are no different. That is the sad story of warfare,
I am afraid. That is why I prefer democractic solutions.

On the other hand, I seem to recall that some Australians are being
charged with shooting the wrong people. That is going to make
it awfully difficult for our troops to operate over there.

Let us Poirot and csteele look at this from my stand point not yours.
And that insult that I look not from Australia's point of view but Americas is humorous and rubbish.
I am from the realistic left, near center.
We the ALP majority know Australia is about as socialist as it ever will be.
We helped get welfare in all its forms.
Health care , education, transport, a host of socialist things many country's charge much more for.
We had but let both party's steal arbitration in workplace disputes, have far less true poor than America but too many.
This world is up for grabs.
This country too, the center may not hold power here soon once defeated Labor and those refugees from the greens will not return for generations to power.
Middle Australia is concerned at thoughts like yours and at Labors drift away from them.
Nothing is sure China will soon lead.
India is not far behind.
America is on the way down.
Saudi Arabia's both giving help and support to terrorism and claiming to be against it, lies are currency in that part of the world.
Both of you highlight American sins, sometime they are true, many times not.
Look at your Iran now, ruled by people anchored in the middle ages and confrontation, do you understand those people in charge of that country would not defend you? let you die maybe murder you?
Can any one ,at all, not see we are heading for a show down?
We are.
Drones?? war and history are full of worse boiling oil tipped on fighters whole towns and villages raped and killed.
Stuffing our guns with flowers,putting them down, will only hasten our deaths.
Real world please not a phantom nonexistent fight fair one.
I remain as I started amused but not budging America and its Friend are at least better.

Belly,

My point was that perhaps if the Americans (and British) had not trampled Iran's democracy underfoot, then we would not be dealing with the likes of the present regime.
The trouble with America's economically inspired adventures in the Middle-East is that one era's diabolically brilliant strategy always seems to morph into a debacle by the time we get around to the next one.

Dear Belly,

Geez mate, why is it so hard for either you or Yabby to answer a straight forward question? You two brothers or something?

I will try again, to your statement “I csteele without reserve support America using any weapon to fight these monsters.” would this include the type of gas attack employed Saddam Hussein?

Dear Yabby,

I have reread you replies to my question about the drone and mosque bombings and although I'm not 100% certain you seem to be concluding it is not the act that condemns but the actor. Therefore although both were done for strategic reasons, both killed around the same amount of people, both constituted an attack on civilians, yet there is only censure from you for the Taliban.

Therefore it seems entirely appropriate that I ask the same question of you that I did of Belly, would the use of a gas attack, similar to that employed by Saddam, by done by the CIA be acceptable in your eyes?

Csteele, the question that you are ignoring, is one of intent.

If you or anyone can show, that the CIA went and targeted civilians,
for no good reasons, then I and doubtless many others would like
to know about it.

I remind you that there are countless examples of where American
citizens have been charged, when it could be shown that they
behaved in that kind of manner. That includes warzones.

The intent of the Taliban is quite clear. People who do not accept
their brand of ideology are clearly infidels and not proper muslims,
so they are fair game.

Poirot, if the West Australian Govt claimed possession of your
house, with little or no compensation, you would most likely
squeal like a pig.

Yet if the American Govt retaliates, when third world Govts
nationalise the assets of its citizens, you seem surprised and
outraged.

What do you think the Govt should do, when billions of $ of American
assets are stolen? Lie on its back to have its belly tickled?

CSteele,
To win the war/peace in Afghanistan the US has to overcome two adversaries. the Taliban on the battlefield, and at home a motley coalition of Islamists, Communists and Narcissists. One group will lie, cheat and steal to achieve it’s ends, and if they ever came across you in a dark street would likely cut your throat, and the Taliban is just as bad.

No one is suggesting the US is perfect –there’re bound to errors /civilian deaths –particularly if the Taliban act like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3VmrOy6ZWQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsLOpFrlHAc
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2010/06/26/taliban-comander.html
(I’ll bet if the “women” here were caught up in an attack they’d be added to your list of civilian deaths –and women civilians too!)


But despite all the Taliban’s as little setup’s, and all your attempts to manipulate accounts to fit your preferred story.
Neither you or the Taliban has produced any credible evidence that the US is deliberately targeting non-combatants in the Afghanistan conflict.

Poirot --having done in-depth research via Wikipedia-- tells us the knock-on effects of the CIA engineered coup in Iran were everything from Al-Qaeda to Zarqawi.

I beg to differ, there were likely only two, significant knock-on effects:
1)It moved the Left in Iran to see capitalism and the West as a more dangerous adversary than the Islamists. Which caused them to side with the Islamists and aid their rise to power.And when the Islamists got the power, they proceeded to execute most of the Left.

2)The second likely knock-on effect is that it provided old Leftists residing in the West with just one more example to cite as to how horrible America is (but then chances are even without the coup they would still have been a sad twisted lot)

csteele, sorry, did not think such a silly question required an answer, we both you and I, know America never ever would use such a weapon.
Can you however assure me the side you defend would not?
Americas past ,including its folly's, can be matched by every colonialist country, England France ,Belgium, Holland, Germany, do I need to continue?
I would have thought, wished for, the left to seek a better life for all humanity.
We hear this America trying to control the world tripe, but are we prepared to look closely at the dreadful life out comes for some in every nation bought about by control from reildgions,some are total even controlling who lives and who dies.

Dear Belly,

With respect you still have not answered my question. You had said “I csteele without reserve support America using any weapon to fight these monsters.”

I hadn't asked did you think America would ever use such a weapon. I specifically asked if by "any weapon" meant you personally would support the type of gas attack employed by Saddam Hussein?

ok I will write slowly.
America would not knowingly use such a weapon on civilians.
Any weapon they wish to use on Islamic terrorists has my support.
I am aware than is saying nuclear yes that too.
Tell me csteele in return for your answer give me one to this.
Are there in your opinion ANY WEAPONS THE TALIBAN AND ITS FRIENDS would not use if they could?
Regards.

I too would beg to differ Belly, simply by drawing on history and ask this question, " would a nation that used atomic weapons on cities, support or justify the type of gas attack employed by Saddam Hussein?.

History would suggest that it's possible that they may.

I too along with csteele, Poirot and Co,
question our own standards and values.

Dear Belly,

I will confess I am finding your answer chilling.

I put your views down to fear but I was wrong, at least in part. After your comments in the last post I think there is a good slice of hatred, deep seated and capable of agreeing with the most heinous of acts done to keep you safe.

You asked in an earlier thread “Find way the west can fight against such hate and disregard for humanity”. I answer 'First look to the mote in your own eye brother!'

Who would wish a gas or a nuclear on anyone? Many countries had stockpiles of chemical weapons during WW2 but they were essentially not used even in the most dire of circumstances. Why do you think that was?

You asked “Are there in your opinion ANY WEAPONS THE TALIBAN AND ITS FRIENDS would not use if they could?”. My answer is probably not, such is their circumstance. They are facing the best funded, most proficient, most technologically advanced war machine this world has ever seen. There is estimated to be around 15,000 Taliban in Afghanistan up against 10 times that number of highly trained troops with a virtually untouchable airforce and unlimited resources.

When the early Zionists were fighting in Palestine they were employing crude terrorist methods and massacring large numbers of innocent people in Palestinian villages. Once they became a powerful sovereign nation with a sophisticated military they put away such things and conducted themselves in ways that were more acceptable to the West but hardly less deadly.

Let me ask you this; If the Taliban were offered 50 drones with all the appropriate training and equipment on the proviso that suicide bombings were to stop do you think they would accept?

What is a suicide bomber if not in most cases the poor man's most efficient method of accurately attacking a target.

If the CIA had employed a suicide bomber to drive their carbomb through Sheikh Fadlallah's front gates then far less innocent blood would have been shed.

All is fair on your playing field.

Dear SPQR, or might I say Boaz, or Polycarp, or AlGoreisrich?

You said “Neither you or the Taliban has produced any credible evidence that the US is deliberately targeting non-combatants in the Afghanistan conflict.”

They bombed a funeral!, a bloody funeral! No amount of your Youtube clips showing men in burkas can excuse that.

This was a premeditated targeting of civilians.

The question had to be asked, 'do we wait and see if we can target our suspect after leaving the gathering our should we attack now even though non-combatants are part of the target?' They went with the second option. In international law that is deemed targeting civilians, and most humane people would and should condemn them for it.

In 1999, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia rejected the defendant, Stanislav Galic's claims that the presence of military targets within a civilian center essentially justifies an indiscriminate attack. The Court ruled authoritatively that it is unlawful to "target" military objectives within a civilian area when the attacker could reasonably "expect excessive civilian causalities to result from the attack." Citing a specific example, The Court ruled that

"Although the number of soldiers present at the game was significant, an attack on a crowd of approximately 200 people, including numerous children would clearly be expected to cause incidental loss of life and injuries to civilians excessive in relation to the direct and concrete military advantage anticipated."

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=16539

The Ruling from the Trial Chamber reads in part

"...indiscriminate attacks, that is to say, attacks which strike civilians or civilian objects and military objectives without distinction, may qualify as direct attacks against civilians. It notes that indiscriminate attacks are expressly prohibited by Additional Protocol I. This prohibition reflects a well-established rule of customary law applicable in all armed conflicts."

You will need to tell me why the CIA's attack wasn't a war crime?

Thinker 2, know I like and respect you, BUT HOLD YOURSELF accountable for your posts.
In this thread, you threw the rubbish about Americas bombing two Japanese city's around.
Then admitted you knew little about the circumstances. you still know nothing about that truth.
csteele, feel free to hug your self and wail, at my insistence on reality.
At my under standing war is awful, but if fighting one winning is best.
Claim like a child chanting I want that,I am hate or fear driven, ignore my question after demanding an answer from me.
csteele another question, are you aware missiles far more awful than any drone are to be used soon, are the fashion in fact? the impending stoning to death of a woman.
PS are you French?
Learn understand, think deeply,those who think differently than you may be right or wrong,and csteele that applies to you too.
Only a fool could truly think they are always right.

CSteele

/// They bombed a funeral!, a bloody funeral! No amount of your Youtube clips showing men in burkas can excuse that ///

On the contrary CSteele, my Youtube clips do just that , because they illustrate well that things are not as they are presented:
--Burka clad “women” may be Taliban men
--An “ambulance” may be a weapons transport
--A “funeral” may be militants hiding/escaping

It is too, too easy ---in the comfort of ones entertainment room, with no threat to ones own life -- to get all sanctimonious, but it aint realistic.

Which may be why –and this may have escaped your notice, or, you may be aware of it and be employing a Taliban like deception – the US is not party to the ICC.And with rulings like the one you illustrate ---it has “bloody” good reason not to be.That ruling would make impossible to fight an adversary like the Taliban or Hezbollah or Hamas who systematically entrench themselves with civilians with the deliberate intent of creating civilian causalities.

Please review what this Hamas leader is saying : Hamas uses civilians as shields –it wants casualties http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gtg1pjnEW2c&feature=related

Of course you try and limit causalities.--but in a conflict where the enemy refuses to wear a uniform and hides under women’s skirts or uses children to deliver bombs, it is unrealistic to expect there wont be errors.



Thinker2
/// I too along with csteele, Poirot and Co,
question our own standards and values ///

If you and CSteele and Poirot were a company, chances are your creditors would have petitioned to place the group into receivership , a long, long time ago . Since all you can do is talk about standards--which if you yourselves were placed in the firing line – you would not have a hope in hell of fulfilling.

Dear Belly,

Please don't claim I haven't answered your question when I clearly have. Further I replied straight away and with a reasonable explanation for the answer given.

Dear SPQR/AGIR,

You wrote "to fight an adversary like the Taliban or Hezbollah or Hamas who systematically entrench themselves with civilians".

To quote from Reuters;

If you were on the U.S-led coalition base in Bagram in Afghanistan soon after the 2001 invasion, you couldn’t help noticing soldiers with long, Taliban-style beards and dressed in light brown shalwar kamaeez down to the sandals.

http://blogs.reuters.com/afghanistan/2009/11/08/growing-beards-to-tame-the-afghan-insurgency/

Northern Alliance, Afghanistan born fighters, some appear not to remember they fought with America.
We have only silence in relation to stoning to death of women.
We hark back constantly to deaths funereal, but is the information true.
We know,even the anti Americans know lies are currency,Even a holly book tells them to lie to us.
It has been good thread, it however is the opinion of three posters, even within the ranks of the very left very anti American left it is unconvincing tripe.
Boazy are you at it again?
Be proud of whatever name you use stand on one .

CSteele,

"To quote from Reuters: ..."

And your point is?

Belly,
Pay no mind to what CSteele says.

Dear Belly,

The deaths at the funeral were part of a mission to get one man, Baitullah Mehsud.

“the recent campaign to kill Baitullah Mehsud offers a sobering case study of the hazards of robotic warfare. It appears to have taken sixteen missile strikes, and fourteen months, before the C.I.A. succeeded in killing him. During this hunt, between two hundred and seven and three hundred and twenty-one additional people were killed, depending on which news accounts you rely upon.”
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/10/26/091026fa_fact_mayer#ixzz1BCMp1PSe

If I can't appeal to your humanity I will try to appeal to your fears.

There is a very real concern that the drone strikes are destabilising the Pakistani government;

From the New Yorker;

“David Kilcullen, a counter-insurgency warfare expert who has advised General David Petraeus in Iraq, has said that the propaganda costs of drone attacks have been disastrously high. Militants have used the drone strikes to denounce the Zardari government—a shaky and unpopular regime—as little more than an American puppet. "

The article makes the point that “the agency has killed many civilians inside a politically fragile, nuclear-armed country with which the U.S. is not at war.”

At least the Israelis make sure their strikes are done by the military where military “lawyers have to be convinced that the target can’t reasonably be captured, and that he poses a threat to national security. Military specialists in Arab culture also have to be convinced that the hit will do more good than harm.”

In America a large part of the operation is carried out by the contractor Xe Services (formally Blackwater) and as with their controllers the CIA under no legal scrutiny. Both the contracting and the strikes have provoked a lot of dissent within the CIA. Obama however recently signed an order adding 50 Afghan drug lords to the list of targets supposedly because they pay money to Al Quaeda. What next? The DEA controlling drones and their missiles?

So when the blowback happens mate I'm not going to be shy about pointing the finger at your good self. Be afraid, be very afraid.

Dear SPQR,

My post was as much to Yabby as your good self as you both seem to be saying one of the defining features that make the Taliban so dispicable and deserving of the US committing war crimes over is that they don't wear uniforms.

Well neither do some of the Special forces units. Does this mean that any action by the Taliban against them is completely justifiable even if outside any rules of warfare?

P.S. You haven't answered Belly's question? "Boazy are you at it again?"

Well?

/// Well neither do some of the Special forces units. Does this mean that any action by the Taliban against them is completely justifiable even if outside any rules of warfare? ///

There’s a world of difference between SPECIAL forces and ALL forces.
I do think you are trying to cloud the issue, a liiiittle!

And it’s not just the issue of them not wearing uniforms, but them systematically using civilians as shields --and when the inevitable happens—people like you crying “for God sake “ the Americans are targeting civilians.

/// The deaths at the funeral were part of a mission to get one man, Baitullah Mehsud ///

And this piece to Belly is hype/tripe :

1) The ones most concerned about the drone strikes are the ones who already hate the Americans (and the West generally)–they are probably part of this mob.http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/news/360985,flowers-pakistan-court-appearance.html
“The suspect in this week's assassination of a close presidential aide was showered with rose petals Thursday as he appeared in an anti-terrorism court in Pakistan.”

2) The impetus behind such hate is not US use of drones , or US involvement in Afghanistan , or US support for Israel –it’s ten thousand madrasahs that teach young hormone charged ,sex denied men, that if they die fighting the infidels they will merit 72 dark eyed virgin houris who will eternally minister their every desire.And it’s hundreds of thousands of CSteele’s in the West who are always willing to trumpet any “wrong” the US does.

And PS: I don’t intend to do anything to identify myself –I’m on special forces assignment ,too

I think, may be wrong, you already unmasked Boazy, that spelling of liiittle had your finger prints on it.
IF I am wrong forgive, but I NEVER will dig a hole and bury my past posts good or bad I remain me.
Now csteele fear, gee you can twist reality hammer it to fit any hole but it remains wrong.
Any thoughts on stoning deaths of women.
Use of children in death missions.
And the outright theft of food aid in these country's.
What is you answer to terrorism based on hate.
Do you believe in a God, what one?
Crawling under the table after I leave,full of fear, no must just be if you say so.
My lack of humanity is impressive isn't it?

Dear Belly

Please do not think that I regard you as an inhumane person because I don't, far from it. I just felt that on this issue other concerns intruded for you which is understandable but they ultimately clouded the truth of what is being done in both our names.

I believe the stoning of women to be wrong.
I believe the use of children in death missions to be wrong.
I believe the theft of food aid to be wrong.

All I am doing is adding one more wrong to that list.

I believe the use of drone missile strikes by the CIA in Pakistan to be wrong.

My response to terrorism based on hate is that it can not be to produce more hate.

*I believe the use of drone missile strikes by the CIA in Pakistan to be wrong.
My response to terrorism based on hate is that it can not be to produce more hate.*

That is very sweet of you Csteele and I am sure that you have a very
kind heart. But reality prevails. Holding hands with the Taliban
and all singing Kumbaya together, is doomed to failure.

This is the problem with religious ideologies, when one group tries
to inflict them on the rest. They think that they have a god given
right to do so. Even the Catholic Church used to have people burnt
at the stake, because they disagreed with the Church. Many wars
were fought and much blood was shed, because of it.

Eventually the church lost its power, we moved on to secular
democracies as a better way to do things. Much of the Islamic
world is a few hundred years behind, on this one.

I remind you once again. It was not America which launched an attack
on Afghanistan for no reason. America responded to an attack by
Afghan residents, who were busy plotting even more attacks.

I'm not sure if you are interested in evolutionary psychology,
but I think you will find that tit for tat has far better outcomes
then turning the other cheek, which is known to be a dismal failure.

That is the reality of it.

Very hot extreme heat here today.
Been watching TV not mowing the lawn.
Watched a doco, about a book that drove the deaths of 60.000 women, in witch craft hunts over two century's.
Seems it author was quite bigoted.
But the line in the book, not believing in Witches is a sign you may be one!
Harshly reminds me, this whole problem, face it csteele, is about differences in reildgions.
All teach or once did that they are the only true one, this part of the world teaches hate, against us.
It teaches to lie to us, to be rewarded for murder,it teaches anti female rubbish.
And it maybe with its lies has fooled you, nothing said there can be believed .
You can believe that drones are both supported by me, and bringing great fear, and even more lies to some who we are better without.

To these people they have a primitive morality, "Might is right" is their basic value as seen by government in these tribal families. The strongest has the right to rule, everyone else must submit. The only way to overcome this view is overthrow them, then show Justice - "All men are equal".

While they believe it is right to bully others into submission they will persevere. The Bully must be subdued by a greater power then shown the value of equality.

Dear philo,

And what do we do when the bully is the most technologically advanced, militarily focussed, nation in the world?

*And what do we do when the bully is the most technologically advanced, militarily focussed, nation in the world?*

So Csteele, what about when the Taliban were bullying little girls,
and denying them from going to school, or women even walking on
the roads by themselves, for that matter.

Do you have sympathy for those little girls too?

Fact is that given the circumstances, the Taliban have done pretty
well actually, hiding amongst the population and hiding in the
mountains.

So the Americans dreamt up drones. They are scaring the living daylights
out of Al Qaeda now.

Why should I feel sorry for grown men who go around bullying little
girls?

I keep referring to my age, yet to me it is not an issue, feel about 30.
Yet while my brain lives that age has a benefit it is a Library, a memory of my life and the events that made me who I am.
csteele while once from the very left I was never like you,but have seen many who are.
I even that hard hit waiting for the revolution kid in 1975, laughed at the willingness of the very left to manufacture issues.
To twist truth, ignore honest events, to preach to me white was black.
And the ability's described have grown, such is this thread.
Emotional clap trap, those who skim across the surface of world events, politics,current affairs, and life, full to the brim with no understanding,like it.
But they live in a land that never existed, and never will.
Nothing the USA has done ever will do,is as inhuman, animal like, as these terrorists.
Humanity is driven by fears promises,control all invented by reildgions.
This part of the world is , while once leaders in education and culture, prisoners no less than North Koreans.
And the left, claiming still equality and all those things holds only one side accountable?
Little girls caught sining, getting an education, and burnt to death for it.

csteele,
Are you saying that teachers should not interfere in school yard bullying because they are more technically advanced.

Dear philo,

I am on the road at the moment so a more fulsome answer later. If a teacher was to see a bully bashing another child I would hope there indeed should be some intervention. What I wouldn't want to see is that teacher bashing the bully because then we end up the kind of world that Yabby seems so comfortable with.

*What I wouldn't want to see is that teacher bashing the bully because then we end up the kind of world that Yabby seems so comfortable with.*

You are a bad judge of character, Csteele. I am actually an
old softie at heart and tend to stick up for the most vulnerable,
who are unable to help themselves.

Using your analogy, if I stood by whilst the teacher ignored the
fact that the bully was bashing little girls, the bully being a
grown man, then I indeed would have a problem.

The Taliban are grown, rough and tough men, hardly little flower
petals. Their behaviour towards the most innocent and vulnerable
in their community is disgusting and frankly they deserve what they
get, if they show so little compassion.

Amazingly you seem to have no compassion for the most vulnerable
and save your compassion for what are basically thugs.

Perhaps its your values that are all screwed up, not mine.

MEEEEOOOOOOOW! Cat fight:)

BLUE

Dear Belly, Yabby and others,

You both have fingered religion as the problem here but I will submit a far greater contributor is the lack of a legal system.

I do not want to downplay the effect of a hyper-conservative form of Islam being inflicted on these people through the auspices of the US and their ally Saudi Arabia in the name of funding the defeat of the Russians. However I think the defining issue is the lawlessness of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas.

From Wikipedia;

“The region is only nominally controlled by the central and Federal government of Pakistan. “

“The Jurisdiction of Supreme Court and High Court of Pakistan does not extend to FATA and Provincially Administered Tribal Areas (PATA), according to Article 247 and Article 248, of existing 1973 Constitution of Pakistan. The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Provincial Assembly has no power in FATA, and can only exercise its powers in PATA that are part of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. The assembly cannot implement the law directly as it can do in other parts of the province or Settled Areas of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa. This has created a political vacuum in FATA, Frontier Regions and PATA. Such lawless conditions are said to serve the interests of terrorists, as there is absence of various government departments like police, judiciary, local governments, and civic amenities. There are no High Courts and Supreme Courts of Pakistan in Tribal Areas.”

One can only imaging what the religious fundamentalists would inflict on America without the separation of church and state and without a robust, mostly independent, legal system.

This however doesn't stop them exporting some of their hatred.

Cont...

Cont...

Kathleen Park writing in the Washington Post about the proposed Ugandan legislation to execute gays;

“Other evangelical Christians operating in Uganda are less easily excused from responsibility in the country's increasingly hostile attitudes toward gays. Often cited as having stirred the pot are pastors Scott Lively, Caleb Lee Brundidge and Don Schmierer, who last March worked with Ugandan faith leaders and politicians to help stop the "homosexualization" of the country.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/16/AR2010021605124.html

I do acknowledge and find also terribly offensive the attitude towards gays in much of the Middle East.

The scenes of the Pakistan legal fraternity hitting the streets last year in protest about the government's sacking of their chief shows one of the few shining lights in a particularly troubled country. The Tribal Areas do not have that luxury and even a strict and unforgiving version of Sharia is probably more acceptable than complete lawlessness.

Indeed the Taliban in Afghanistan were unquestionably initially welcomed because of the lawlessness of the Warlords and the horrific civil war that was consuming the country after the West turned its back on it after the routing of the Russians.

If a person, a region, a country is not subject to some form of law then abuses occur. Moving up the chain the fact that the US does not consider itself under any obligation to the International Court is significant. It signed the Rome Statute on December 31, 2000, but that signature was withdrawn under the Bush administration on May 6, 2002.

I'm proud that Australia is a signatory.

Dear Yabby,

Now to you specifically.

You wrote; “I remind you once again. It was not America which launched an attack
on Afghanistan for no reason. America responded to an attack by
Afghan residents, who were busy plotting even more attacks. “

This was very disingenuous. We both know there was not a single Afghan on any of the planes involved in 9/11. The nationalities were 15 Saudi Arabians, 2 from United Arab Emirates, 1 Egyptian and 1 Lebanese.

“In May 2002, former FBI Agent Robert Wright, Jr. delivered a tearful press conference apologizing to the families who lost loved ones on 9/11. He described how his superiors intentionally obstructed his investigation into al-Qaeda financing. Agent Wright would later tell ABC's Brian Ross that "September 11th is a direct result of the incompetence of the FBI's International Terrorism Unit," specifically referring to the Bureau's hindering of his investigation into Yasin al-Qadi, who Ross described as a powerful Saudi Arabian businessman with extensive financial ties in Chicago. One month after the attacks, the US government officially identified al-Qadi as one of Osama bin Laden's primary financiers, through his Muwafaq Foundation, and they declared him to be a global terrorist."

Why are we helping bomb the crap out of a backward nation killing thousands upon thousands each year and not lifting a finger at the Saudis?

All the reasons we should be turning a blind eye to the excesses of the CIA in their attacks on the Pakistan Taliban apply equally to Saudi Arabia.

13th Sept 2010 “The US government is charging ahead with a plan to sell $60bn worth of advanced aircraft and other sophisticated weapon systems to Saudi Arabia, in what is thought to be the largest US arms deal ever.” Not to mention the 75,000 US jobs expected to be supported in the deal.

A defining characteristic of a bully is that they pick on those who are less likely to inflict any pain.

America at its finest is far better than this and can be again given enough encouragement. Perhaps one day it will be.

Dear Belly,

You keep on banging on about the left. While you might I do not consider myself to be from the left and I do think this is an issue that should transcend politics.

If anyone who dissents over the drone strike is from “the far left” then you need to include probably the most influential center-right think tank in America, the Council on Foreign Relations. It's Fellow for Conflict Prevention, Micha Zenko , is one of the loudest voices questioning the strikes in America today.

Powerful think tank the Brookings Institute points to its own conservative research showing that 10 civilians die for every militant killed. It strongly questions the strikes. “We must not pretend the killings are anything but a flawed short-term expedient that at best reduces the al Qaeda threat -- but by no means eliminates it. Even as U.S. strikes have increased, Pakistan has suffered staggering levels of terrorism as groups with few or limited links to al Qaeda have joined the fray.”

Is David Kilcullen, who has served as a senior adviser for counterinsurgency to then United States secretary of state Condoleezza Rice and Commander of the Central Command General David Petraeus, and continues to be called on for advice by the US military brass, a warrior for the far left since he strongly opposes the drone attacks in Pakistan?

Kilcullen says; "When we intervene in people's countries to chase small cells of bad guys, we end up alienating the whole country and turning them against us. And Al Qaeda's strategy is fundamentally based on trying to soak us up in a series of unsustainable interventions in various places around the world," and “"If we go in with an enemy-centric focus where we are just trying to find and defeat the Taliban, then we are on a path to losing. If we go in with a population-centric approach where we are trying to protect the population to make them feel safe, that is the pathway to getting people to move away from armed politics towards participation in a regularised political process.

Anyone else watch the program about Daniel Ellsberg on ABC tonight?

http://www.abc.net.au/tv/guide/abc1/201101/programs/ZX1125A001D2011-01-18T203318.htm?program=The%20Most%20Dangerous%20Man%20In%20America%3A%20Daniel%20Ellsberg%20And%20The%20Pentagon%20Papers

I wouldn't mind betting in 30 years time, or possibly less, similar revelations will be made about the war in Afghanistan akin to those revealed by Ellsberg's Pentagon Papers about the lies and deception fed to the American public about the Vietnam War.

csteele,
I ask is the Taliban terrorists acting in Parkistan to protect the citizens in a just and humanitarian way; or are tey merely imposing sharia laws in the presence of a lawless vacuum?
You said, "If we go in with a population-centric approach where we are trying to protect the population to make them feel safe, that is the pathway to getting people to move away from armed politics towards participation in a regularised political process".

The question is: Do we allow such a system to survive that also threatens our freedoms which they dispise.

Oops Csteele, you seem to be confusing citizens and residents.

Fact is that Afghanistan had become a centre for training terrororists,
a home for hundreds of arab fighters, including bin Laden, Zawahiri
etc.

They could operate out of Afghanistan, with basic impunity.

What do you think that the US was going to do?

After the bombing of US embassies in Africa, Clinton indeed sent
missilies to destroy the training camps.

Fact is they continued, it was residents of Afghanistan who
were behind the 911 bombings. The Taliban refused to hand them
over.

Wikileaks has been great,and yes others long ago, we learned just how bad some things America did can be.
Had we had Wikileaks in the preceding three century's we could have learned about every other colonialist country's actions.
Gee including Australia's.
Now if we had, any form, of leaks from within these terrorist groups, silly thing to say, never going to happen.
You can get killed for playing music, uncovering your face.
News up date yesterday in Iraq 50 died 150 injured.
Seems a patriotic lunatic killed himself and them,wanted to visit his God.
No no one squealing about that weapon, drones yes but human bombs?
I csteele am proud to be me to regard all things equal America far the better in this issue.

Dear Pelican,

I think there will come a day when the US will apologise to the world for its actions in the tribal areas, when that will be however I do not know.

Dear philo,

Can I please give you this assurance, a tribesman in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas of Pakistan where 97% of the population is agrarian, literacy is at 17%, healthcare virtually non-existent, who has been subject to brutal attacks by the Pakistani Armed Forces and now facing drone strikes several times a week has very little time to devote to despising your freedoms, Taliban or not.

Dear Yabby,

No the Taliban did not refuse to hand them over, they said if the evidence was given showing their involvement in the attack they would hand bin Laden and others over to an agreed Islamic jurisdiction.

Even before 9/11 but post the US embassy bomb attacks negotiations were in play.

From Ahmed Rushid's book the Taliban – Militant Islam, Oil and Fundamentalism in Central Asia; “The Taliban tried to cut a deal with Washington – to allow him to leave the country in exchange for US recognition. Thus until the winter of 1998 the Taliban saw bin Laden as an asset, a bargaining chip over which they could negotiate with the Americans. The US state department opened a satellite communication to speak to Mulah Omar directly. The Afghanistan desk officers, helped by a Pushto translator, held lengthy conversations with Omar in which both sides explored various options, but to no avail.” But without a compromise forthcoming they quickly saw Bin Laden instead “as a liability”.

The Taliban actually had little time or respect for the foreign fighters but they did bring in a lot of funds from Saudi Arabia and other donors.

Dear Belly,

You said “No no one squealing about that weapon, drones yes but human bombs?”. I'm not saying both aren't tragic but could you please give us some details so we can compare it to the funeral attack. Was there a specific target? Was there a strategic rational to it? How many civilians were killed? Does the fact that it was a suicide bomber make a difference?

csteele,
It appears you are appealing to desperate self presevation in the face of Taliban moral supremacy. But in a Taliban society you would be the first to be beheaded because of your failure to observe shar'ia religious laws.

csteele it is like setting out to ride a push bike to Brisbane without wheels trying to make progress here.
IF only,you can look at yesterdays front page storys,even todays.
While you focus on Taliban, you are aware they are one part of the horrible groups you appear to defend.
This morning is not unlike yesterday TWO car bombs, one targeting children at a religious celebration, 50 dead, more,and 150 injured.
I think the chances/need for America to EVER say sorry for its actions are none existent.
Say equal to the Chance Islamic fascists will free women, recognize others rights to worship any God, and that the wonderful Taliban will never again return to [if in power ]turning sports grounds in to killing Fields for mass entertainment.
csteele you find drones unacceptable?

Dear philo,I googled "despise our freedoms" to see where this now hackneyed phrase comes from and instead came upon this extremely powerful piece on the Times online.

"The new laws whisper:

You don't know who you are

You're mistaken about yourself

We know better than you do what you consist of, what labels apply to you, which facts about you are important and which are worthless

We do not believe you can be trusted to know these things, so we shall know them for you"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5811412.ece

It is well worth the read and I invite you to do so. But back on topic, there may well be a case that the 9/11 lot thought in those terms, being well off and quite highly educated Saudis, but to claim this as a legit fear that is worth committing war crimes over against the Pakistan Taliban is deluded.

Dear belly,

Mate sometimes you are harder to pin down than a tiger snake on a Tarmac in the Territory hissing and spitting all over the place.

You said “No no one squealing about that weapon, drones yes but human bombs?"

I invited you to give the details so we could compare the two and you have brought up different groups and events. Can we get back to the original bombing you referred to? Just give me a link if you have it and I will look for myself or do you think the comparison will make you uncomfortable?

You make my point for me, Csteele.

The Taliban had the choice of handing over bin Laden to the
Americans, they chose not to. The rest is history.

Dear Yabby,

Are you suggesting that if the Taliban had handed over Bin Laden the Americans would not have gone to war with them?

csteele I have never posted a link, find it hard to do so.
But both yesterday, and today, I said my source is/was the daily press, Sydney's two papers, the Australian, and headlines in goggle news all tell the storys.
Car bombs/human bombs, targeted new police recruits in Iraq killing 50 injuring 150 plus.
Today same story different targets,two car bombs one targeting children at a religious festival.
Now as drones target enemy combatants.
Car/human bombs target civilians or soft targets, I remain unconcerned at your complaints.
Yabby can answer for himself, my opinion is, IF Taliban had handed over the head murderer America still should have invaded that country, rid it of them, freed its people, given women a chance to be first class humans.
It may well be senility, but my childhood dreams for true equality of sex race and all humanity is still a wish.
If I challenged you to an Oxford style debate, and you drew the opposite views to the one you push here, could you do it?
A closed mind is not productive.

Csteele, the Taliban ran Afghanistan for years, I used to read about
their barbarity in the press. The US did not invade.

The US invaded a couple of months after 911. Fair enough.

Afghanistan had become the centre of Al Qaeda operations and
training, for attacking the West. That needed to end. They
were not just hillbilly tribesmen doing their own thing anymore.
What was happening in Afghanistan had global implications.

Dear belly,You wrote:
" IF Taliban had handed over the head murderer America still should have invaded that country, rid it of them, freed its people, given women a chance to be first class humans."

So when are we invading Saudi Arabia? Or does your rhetoric of freeing women only extend to those on the other side? A closed mind indeed.Police are used extensively against the Taliban so why are they not a legitimate target? Besides for a sizable section of the Iraqi population these are collaborators with the invaders.

As to your religious festival bombings, 56 dead compared to 18 when the CIA bombed the dinner for the religious holiday. Why do you claim women and children were directly targeted when from what I read the bombers drove directly at the checkpoints that were heavily manned by Iraqi soldiers? What report made that claim?

csteele this game is not new to me.
We hop from Lilly pad to pad, not addressing the truth.
Oh we try I remind you that this weapon is aimed at enemy combatants, you refer to civilian deaths.
Deaths that may well not be civilians, deaths that may not even have taken place.
You tell me I am hard to pin down,do not answer your questions, but never refer to mine you do not answer.
I understand this, opponents of the west/America/any thing, feed on rumors untruths lies blindness.
And that throwing enough mud sees a certain blindness, distrust for truth grow.
I love the insults about my concerns for women being selective, such charges are usually from the uninformed.
Or thrown knowing it not to be true to divert the subject.
However have no doubt, please I think the very left, the anti American groups are not remotely interested in a better world for women and indeed the victims of terrorism,including those who live in these country's and never know any better confined by rules that breed hatred.
You do your task well, unfortunately some will agree with you, few , a very small number,but fact is you skip over murders to harass America for having a better, more honest, safer weapon.
Yabby we wast our time, reality is unwanted here and truth is not getting air, hate needs to hide it to continue.

Dear Belly,

Now you are making me sad.

I have laid out a case for why we should consider what is being done in our name as unacceptable.

In response through innumerable posts you have accused me of being dishonest, untruthful, twisting the truth, without balance, a supporter of Saddam, of canonising our enemies, of having blinkers on, of being blind, and of being hate filled.

When one attacks the messenger so vehemently it is a sure sign the truth is something they do not want to hear. I am not going to walk away from this thread and will reply to anything you post but I invite you to reread what has been written and perhaps contemplate it out of the heat of tit for tat responses.

Dear Yabby,

Those training camps you speak of are the ones financed and constructed by the US and the Saudis and they are doing exactly what they were designed to do, produce militants.

As Osama said “To counter these athiest Russians the Saudis chose me as their representative in Afghanistan”...”I settled in Pakistan in the Afghan border region. There I received volunteers who came from the Saudi kingdom and from all over the Arab and Muslim countries. I set up my first camp where these volunteers were trained by Pakistan and American officers. The weapons were supplied by the Americans, the money by the Saudis.”

The reason why Pakistan was so keen to keep the bases open post the Russian withdrawal was they were sending Kashmiri militants there for training and paying the Taliban for their protection. The militants were trained, funded and armed before being sent to conduct guerilla attacks in Indian Kashmir.

They only became our problem when they turned their attention to the West. It is interesting to think of how history might have changed if the US had withdrawn the last 20,000 troops from Saudi Arabia.

Csteele, the Americans had troops in Saudi Arabia at the invitation
of the Saudis. Why? Because they knew that Saddam was after their
oil fields, just like with Kuwait.

bin Laden dreamed that he and a few of his followers could defeat
Saddam and was upset when the Sauds turned to a little bit more
credible military force, for their protection.

bin Laden got things done, because he inherited a fortune from
his daddy. An Arab with a few hundred million in his pocket,
has power in a place like Afghanistan.

Now where the whole story changed, was really in bin Laden's
religious education. He was always very religious, but
first followed typical Wahabi Islam, as most Saudis do.

Later on he got involved in the new radical techings, as
preached by the followers of Sayd Qutb, an Egyptian.
He was lectured by Qutb's brother, amongst others.

In Afghanistan he linked up with Zawahiri, an Egytian
who also followed the Qutb ideology.

Qutb's ideology is clearly described in "Milestones",
available on the net for free. It is basically about
violent Islam taking over the world, the biggest enemy
being the US. You too, should be bowing to Mecca,
5 times a day.

Combine Zawahiri's brains and ideology with bin Laden's
money, stick them together in Afghanistan, where they
could do as they pleased and you have a problem.

So no matter what the West does, it really won't matter.
Qutb's ideology is what they follow, including in
Afghanistan, by the Taliban.

bin Laden described Afghanistan under Omar, as the only
real Muslim state

It may csteele appear to you my words come from heat.
Guilty, in part, see I never mastered grammar, never leaned the right way to express my self in writing.
My education is on going and self driven.
Some, many eldest country sons/daughters commence work early to feed the rest.
I am not heated, not a bit, I however am aware I am trying to wrestle an eel bare handed.
Have done it before, both the fish and people.
I do not want to offend you, but in black and white question your opinions.
America, it could be said of France England,any country, has done much wrong.
FAR LESS however than its opponents in this war with terrorists.
Getting Russia out of Afghanistan was no bad thing.
As was getting rid of Taliban, I share your concerns with Saudi Arabia, and put PAKISTAN in the never to be trusted basket.
Those tribal areas are a blot on humanity, a people not able to see a different world and all its chances.
If you think I target you, then you are wrong.
If you think I look else ware for balanced opinion you are right.
My support for America is no hard task given the other sides crimes against humanity,its target to return the world to the worst of middle ages I am not moving, by the way Boazy is still posting under his latest AGIR so we both owe another an I am sorry.

Dear Yabby

Bin Laden got things done because he was heavily backed by Saudi Arabia and the US which is the only reason the Afghans had any time for him. He and his men were not highly regarded by the ordinary Afghan fighters.

Religious extremism only takes hold when a society is on it's knees. Iran is a case in point. It is also worth remembering there are two so called Talibans, the Afghan one and the Pakistani. The Afghan mob have made repeated requests that the Pakistani lot lay off the bombings in Pakistan because they had been receiving support from the Pakistani government. However that's exactly who the Pakistani Taliban have their beef with. Both lots get support from the populace because they are answering a need. How large would the need in this country to give Fred Nile complete and utter power, or Jerry Falwell in the US and how different would we both look after a couple of years.

Dear Belly,

You said; "Getting Russia out of Afghanistan was no bad thing. As was getting rid of Taliban, I share your concerns with Saudi Arabia, and put PAKISTAN in the never to be trusted basket. Those tribal areas are a blot on humanity, a people not able to see a different world and all its chances."

I agree that getting Russia out of Afghanistan was a good thing but how we, or rather America, went about it that was wrong and has directly led to the problems facing the world since.

I am also heartened to finally hear you say anything bad about that US ally Saudi Arabia.

But I am less judgmental about the Tribal Areas as I see them as having been the plaything of the two then super powers plus it's neighbor.

It is time to find a different approach to the area rather than bombing it from afar.

Selective use of drones while driven from afar are very near, and hardly bombing in the way we think about it.
Tribal areas are hardly out of the middle ages if at all.
Ruled by despotic leaders and a people not free to learn about the world as it is.
This part of the world has always been war like and at war,even with its self.
I will not concede Russia's exit from Afghanistan was badly done, and question what do you want for Pakistan/Afghanistan if America left today would you be happy.

Dear belly,

I will reply to your latest post when I get home but I did need to pull you up on one matter.

You seemed to think I owe you an apology for saying AGIR is SPQR.

I think it is this exact sort of blindness to the obvious that let's you take the position you do on the war crime that are these drone strikes.

Just go look at the history of both. AGIR appears to get suspended for a month for being naughty and SPQR pops up a week into the suspension. Unlike any newbie he gets stuck right into the fray. Other things made it pretty obvious we were dealing with AGIR one of which you pointed out.

I was hoping that when AGIR returned from suspension then he would have had the good grace to retire SPQR. It doesn't appear to be happening.

In the unlikely event I am wrong you will get an apology.

*Religious extremism only takes hold when a society is on it's knees*

Not so, Csteele. Many of the extremist religious are indeed quite
well educated and wealthy. Zawahiri is a doctor. bin Laden
inherited hundreds of millions from his veyr rich father.

Many of the religious extremists in London, come from well to do
families. They still want to overthrow the Govt.

It just seems that within every society, there are some people
prone to it and they take their zealotary to the limits.

The Taliban survive, not because they are popular, but because if
you don't agree with them, you get shot.

Fear is the driving factor.

Let the Taliban stand at the next elections and we'll see how they
go. But they won't, rather preferring to threaten anyone with death,
if they dare vote.

Many Afghans assist the Taliban for another reason. They know that
at some time the coalition forces will leave. Most likely the
Taliban will take over again and if they don't assist the Taliban
now, then at that point they will be chopped liver.

So they play a double game to survive. There were many Afghans forced
to assist the Taliban. The moment that the Northern Alliance made
progress, they changed uniforms and fought for them. The other
thing is that many need to make a living, so they join whatever army
has money to pay them.

The main targe for the drones, are the Arabs. They would think
twice before moving around freely outside, certainly during the day.

@ CSteele,

/// AGIR appears to get suspended for a month for being naughty and SPQR pops up a week into the suspension…Other things made it pretty obvious we were dealing with AGIR one of which you pointed out. ///

Sooo! things are not always as they appear to be, eh?
If you were behind the drone camera you would have said FIRE! FIRE! FIRE!
And you would have killed poor SPQR instead of AGIR!—what a travesty that would have been!

(“war criminals” indeed -- there but for the grace of God go you!)

Actually to be truthful—and I always am ---I baited you a bit.
I knew the spelling of “ a liiiittle!” was trademark AGIR
(Just as the Taliban dress as women –then cry foul).

Lucky for you I’ve been busy campaigning against the forces of darkness on other fronts and I left poor Yabby and Belly like good Horatio's holding the bridge, so to speak. And what a good job they have done!

Dear SPQR,

This is very easily resolved since you have committed to always being truthful. Just two simple questions if I may.

Have you posted on the OLO forum under any other user name?

Was one of these ALGOREisRICH?

I hope the answer to csteels question is no.
I too could look like AGiR ,but would not do it.
never going to make progress but will wait for that reply csteele.

Dear Yabby,

You said: “The Taliban survive, not because they are popular, but because if
you don't agree with them, you get shot. Fear is the driving factor.”

How do you reconcile your post with what is actually happening on the ground?

An example.

Mohamed Daord, Chora District chief, is the son of Rozi Khan, the Chora District Governor who was mistakenly killed by Australian SAS troops a couple of years back. Khan was vehemently anti-Taliban and his son holds no animosity toward the Australians for his fathers death. However last year he expressed grave concerns about the withdrawal of the Dutch forces fearing retribution from a former corrupt governor who is now a senior advisor to President Hamid Karzai.

He said when they leave he might be forced to flee Afghanistan or join the Taliban.

According to you as a refugee he wouldn't deserve sanctuary and as a fighter he would deserve a drone missile.

And I don't think it was fear that drove the father of one of the Afghan policemen who was also mistakenly shot by the Australians to join the Taliban, it was rage.

We seem intent on creating much more of it.

Csteele, one swallow doesen't make a summer. Sure there are
people backing the Taliban, but not the majority.

When the Taliban took over Afghanistan, millions fled to
Pakistan. When they were overthrown, millions returned.

Most of the Afghan asylum seekers here are doing so on the
basis of being Hazaras, so not getting on with the Pashtuns.

That is inter tribal, not inter religious.

Dear Belly,

It appears we may not have an answer forthcoming from SPQR. I am attempting other avenues to see if I can secure an answer.

Back to your post that I promised to attend to.

By saying you don't think the methods used to get Russia out of Afghanistan were a mistake you would agree then with Carter’s national security advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, who said; “What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Muslims or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?”

You also asked; “what do you want for Pakistan/Afghanistan if America left today would you be happy.” Yes I would if they are going to continue with the strategy they are currently employing. Even the Australian contingent have been drawn away from reconstruction efforts to security measures, but after all these years their most forward base is only 30kms out.

To have the estimated Taliban numbers get as low as 10,000 then see within a year their number grow to 30,000 screams out to me that the current strategy is wrong.

It is a mess of America's making but they seem intent on going down a path of a military solution. It just isn't going to happen. Committing war crimes is hardly helping either.

I think Yabby, that csteele's observation is not so much in isolation, but one of many such instances of the persecution of the innocent.

The drones, (the subject of the original post) , only increase the possibility of such persecution.

Csteele also seeks to encourage discussion about the main motivators for hatred and suspicion, those being of course being, hatred and suspicion.

Regardless of left or right leanings, any society cannot judge itself valid, unless benchmarks for human behaviour are understood and accepted,
and at the very least, we should ensure that minimum standards are maintained.

And as for our own Civil Rights, they are practically non existent in our own country,
and we have managed to arrive at our this destination through our own apathy.

Never once having felt, the true weight of persecution.

Regardless of the pressure placed upon the persecuted, perhaps we could provide a social structure
for which the downtrodden could aspire, instead of despise.

In a perfect world perhaps?, but why not have that , if you can.

Drones in deed are the threads subject.
We hear they are a bad weapon, target civilians, funerals.
I disagree, but counter with a breaking news story.
First let me defend the questions that will come my way because of it.
Afghanistan was ,maybe still is,an international training ground for terrorists who act all over the world.
Moscow airport, arrivals area a bomb killed 30, not much chance it was aimed at military targets.
A great number are injured more may die,compare the intent of drones to this.
One mans terrorist we are told is another mans freedom fighter.
The freedom fighter is in uniform and in growing numbers.
Increasing awareness of this hate driven problem can not be diverted by highlighting a weapon of real use drones.
If Boazy is as you suspect so be it, if not?
Very hard to judge I grant you, but one way or another you case is not advanced by either result.
A generation has let it self be blinded to the history of warfare, to the reality that not fighting bully's and murderers is to surrender and in time seen only as weakness, further reason for more warfare.

Hope you have a great Australia Day Belly , but I do hope your not one of those people toting an Australian flag (made in China) on their car.

Only the least intelligent amongst us would indulge in such meaningless symbolism.
I cringe every time I see this, and once thought that this sort of thing was the domain of the hapless,
misinformed and obviously brainwashed American public.

But these people, are usually the same people (who also sport) "Australia love it or leave it" stickers on their back window. Scary aren't they in their four wheel drives. Not a humanitarian or social libertarian or environmentalist amongst them, their numbers on the the increase.

Shows how far we have digressed, don't you think?.

you are most probably a good bloke.
But can you look at that post ,then in to your mirror? come bloke do it for me.
See you get very close to the true lefts standard issue, clap trap.
You infer I am not Aussie not patriotic ,because my views are different than yours.
By implication you do not think free speech, different ideas, are of value.
thinker 2 I truly remind you you are not a God, you can be wrong, your views are not mine, not those of most AUSTRALIANS.
Can it be you have convinced your self you know best.
Nothing flash for me tomorrow, watch the ceremony, silently remember mates and family who are gone.
Bar B Q on the veranda at lunch, Australian lunch sausage sandwiches and a beer.
I will remember your slur but laugh it of, look at photos on my wall, my history as an Aussie.
OH by the way never spoke of that bus bomb, Iraq death toll over 150 this week your silence csteels too on the subject is telling.
sling those arrows know however it is More than fun to see them it is evidence you can not rebut my posts with truth.

Dear Belly,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say 'I disagree'. Do you disagree that the drones are a bad weapon? Well okay, you may have that opinion but it flies against International Law. Do you disagree that they targets civilians? Plainly they have so you are wrong, dangerously so. Do you disagree they target funerals? Again you are wrong, again dangerously so.

The mistaken target at that particular funeral was Baitullah Mehsud a leader in the Pakistan Taliban. There is no indication that they were involved in the Moscow bombing, nor has anyone claimed responsibility. Why are you linking it to the drone strike on the funeral. Are you incapable of separating these out in your mind?

I can hazard a guess. Is it because you are wanting to offer another misguided reason for your condoning of war crimes?

The only comparison we can make is purely in terms of shattered human lives and the drone strike wins. If those lives count equally then the strike was two and a half times as bad.

Now Belly I have directly answered your questions on more than a few occasions even though you did not afford me the same courtesy on the question of your support of a gas attack.

I would like to try a different tack. Australia ratified the Ottawa Treaty in 1999 banning landmines. The US has refused to sign it and continues to use them in places of conflict including Afghanistan.

Do you agree with Australia's position? Do you agree with their use by the US in Afghanistan?

Further Australia is a signatory but yet to ratify the Oslo Process which bans cluster bombs.

Again do you agree with Australia's position? Do you agree with their use by the US in Afghanistan?

Both are blamed for high death and injury rates among civilians particularly children.

Do you instead see Australia's position as a sign of weakness?

Dear thinker2,

I was quite happy with the rather unfrenetic way we celebrated Australia Day here in this country and certainly didn't mind the odd Aussie flag flown. That was until Cronulla. I am only just getting back to welcoming it rather than cringing myself. Got to tell you though ANZAC day dawn service at the Shrine in Melbourne is thankfully almost totally bereft of flags worn Cronulla style in fact the last time I went there were only two.

Traditionally we head out to my brother-in-law's sheep farm for beer, BBQ, and Banjo Patterson. Most years the children do a reading as well but the highlight is always the host's rendition of The Man from Snowy River, his voice has just the right timbre. Other favourites include Mulga Bill's Bicycle, The Geebung Polo Club, The Man from Ironbark, and Clancy of the Overflow.

My sentimental favourite is the Pearl Diver and as such visiting the Japanese diver's cemetery in Broome was quite and experience for me.

While being open to its failings I have a deep pride in this country and what it stands for. These appear to be a little different to the values Belly espouses but we are all entitled to celebrate the day in our own way.

Dear Yabby,

You said; “When the Taliban took over Afghanistan, millions fled to
Pakistan. When they were overthrown, millions returned.”

I acknowledge that is the case but would say there were a few other factors that contributed including an extremely severe drought, some pretty brutal sanctions, some very belligerent attitudes toward AID agencies from the Taliban etc.

Other things come in to play in and near the Tribal Areas. I find it pretty difficult to separate out what behaviour is Taliban driven and what is Pashtunwali driven. Pashtunwali “is a non-written ethical code and traditional lifestyle which the indigenous Pashtun people from Afghanistan and Pakistan follow.” that well pre-dates Islam. Wikipedia

Its main principles are Melmastia (hospitality), Nanawatai (asylum), Badal (justice), Tureh (bravery), Sabat (loyalty) ,Imandari (righteousness), Isteqamat - Trust in God, Ghayrat (self honour or dignity), Namus (Honor of women).

They are a heady mix but for those with very little in the way of personal goods they are an extremely important part of how this race of people view themselves.

It is a pity it has been co-opted into Talibanism but probably understandable in some ways. The challange is how to pull the two apart leaving the Pashtunwali ethic as a cultural foundation.

Yabby I would like your opinion here.
Are we feeding a pink revolution here?
It is clear if we left the thread would stop .
Seen through eyes that are not mine it appears we will never be able to get our views across.
I however will try IF csteele, remember I think lies are currency in this part of the world, that funeral was attacked I SUPPORT IT.
I find nothing wrong with drones or targeting any enemy combatant.
I do,,, highlight,,, your thread infers drones are evil,,, but steps around confronting human and car bombs by those you seem to cuddle.
I have to try,to put in to words, my thoughts on the very left the blind anti west.
I am reminded of a water hen, one will wander into the middle of the road.
Unaware of the nature of a road, convinced it is ok, get run over and killed.
Its mate will wander on to? the road calling for its mate,picking at it, then it too is dead,never understanding things are not what they seem.
I fly the EUREKA FLAG along side my Aussie one, I am proud to have come from convict stock, be as Aussie as you like but do not insult my nationality.
Yabby we you and I have been caught in sticky fly paper.
No intention to comment on mass murder,, human suffering of women is going to be let to see life here unless it is us.

Thinker 2.....that last post couldn't have been said better. Yep! Not one of them.

Sir lance-a-lot and his white horses will.....enjoy rattling the chains ( national parks killing fields ) in side the barn with the rest of the horses:)

Lets celebrate Australia day.

But in what way?

You know, I cant wait until we are 50 million strong, wont that be fun. The cash registers will be ringing and the once abundant environment, we can all view in national geographic documentaries.

Oh what am I saying......its all going to be fine, so go on and enjoy your day:)

BLUE

*Are we feeding a pink revolution here?*

Most likely we are Belly, but that also exposes all Csteeles flawed
thinking. Csteele seems to favour the Kumbaya solution, but all
holding hands and singing, won't get rid of religious extremists
who persecute others. In fact, the Taliban even ban music and
any pictures.

So I am sure that Csteele means well, but reality does not
go away, when we close our eyes and wish it would.

I too can be a critic of the Americans. Yes, they can be arrogant,
they can be knows alls. I disliked George Bush's world, but I
see Obama's world as quite different.

As far as the drones go, they are a classic case of outthinking the
enemy. Militant leaders are terrified of them. To cry "unfair"
is a little bit of a stretch, given that Al Qaeda hardly play fair.

The reality is that whilst our forces are busy droning militant
leaders, those leaders have little time to worry about letting off
bombs in the West. Meantime both Australians and Americans are
nation building in Afghanistan. Training their forces, building
hospitals, schools and roads, showing them that there is indeed
another way of life.

Will it work in the end? That will really be up to the Afghan
people. It worked in Iraq in the end, but it took a while. So
I think its worth a try.

Sadly the one bloke who would have been a great leader, Massoud,
was killed just before the invasion. He led the Northern Aliance
for years and was a charismatic fellow. But Al Qaeda planted a
bomb in the movie camera of a journalist and sadly blew him up.

Curious is why Csteele is such an apologist for the Taliban and
all their evils.

Dear Belly,

Well thank you, you have just won me a bottle of Coonawarra red. A mate of mine who has been keeping tabs on this thread said that you hadn't really been pinned down on the matter of the use of gas and wanted me to ask a direct question about land mines and cluster bombs. I said it would be a waste of time because I would not get an answer rather I would be attacked instead, so a wager was made. I will be sure to toast you later this arvo.

As to the thread stopping I have made a commitment to myself to respond to any post on this thread, however blue in the face I get, so I intend being here to turn the lights out when that time comes.

Speaking of going blue in the face I do not 'cuddle' those who bomb civilians, I think it is all totally reprehensible irrespective of what side commits it. You however deem it fit to support it when done in your name. By doing so you have lost the right to condemn the act by others.

Regarding me insulting your nationality, hardly, are you not doing just that by espousing the views you do? They do not reflect the stance taken by this nation on International Law, the Geneva Convention, munitions that have such a terrible civilian casualty rate, the targeting of civilian infrastructure etc. Positions that will make me proud to toast the nation today.

Regardless of the above I wish you a good and happy Australia Day especially as we should celebrate the fact we can have these discussions in this country without the threat of reprisals.

Dear Yabby,

A redirect if I may. Do you agree with Australia's position on landmines and cluster bombs and do you agree with their use by the US in Afghanistan?

Or is that just too much Kumbaya for you?

To the Taliban banning music. Years ago when my inlaws became fundamentalist Christians they came home and burnt all their books and music that were not Christ orientated. The sentiment is not purely one of Islamic fundamentalism, the problem is that circumstances have conspired to put these people in power and the solution is to keep their hands from the levers of government. Just as we don't go and blow away our fundamentalists that shouldn't be the extent of our intentions here. They will be part of the government of Afghanistan and they will have a role in the Tribal Areas too.

I couldn't agree with you more about Massoud, perhaps a little over-hyped by the West but still presented very real hope for the country. The Taliban had been making strong overtures to him about forming government with him as prime minister but it didn't served the purposes of Al Quaeda so he was killed.

Drone strikes clamping down on terrorist acts outside the Tribal Areas? The surge in killings in Pakistan shows this to be completely baseless. The Pakistani Taliban, based on US figures, tripling in size in one year must have Al Quaeda rubbing its hands together. What a recruitment drive! If they can convince even a tiny proportion of these to pursue agendas broader than Pakistan they will be happy.

While you rejoice over each drone strike there are those who are rejoicing far more.

Just to be clear I am not an apologist for the evils of the Taliban, unlike yourself and Belly I am not apologist for evil full stop.

Now I'm off to drink some of Belly's red.

“And whether he's believed or no, there's one thing to remark,
That flowing beards are all the go way up in Ironbark.”

Lets hope through the drone's lens its not mistaken for a Taliban stronghold.

yabby yes aware of the murder of the leader of the northern alliance, just about a day was it before 9/11.
And share your understanding of csteels views.
Enjoy your red, you may well win more that way, see I despite your self indulgent view am mainstream , my views are too.
If you tickled me you could not make me grin More with that silliness.
Now I know, yes I do, you want your street Corner to spruke on, that if you went to any speakers corner in Australia the crowd would dwindle to one.
Here you can bring Friends mates pals to look at the strange beast who actually has the hide to have views other than yours.
I will stick it out see it is helping my blood pressure laughter is good for it.
Say Gday to your Friend from this red neck try white next time.
I leave for yet another sanga, sausage, and a 4x Gold

Yes Blue and Belly it wasn't well said. I apologise for any offence.

I too love our country but am feeling uncomfortable with the growth of nationalistic symbolism. Eureka is a symbol of a rebellion, not conformity, a rebellion that was justified, not as today when we see the Eureka symbol and the Aussie flag being used for ill purposes by people wishing to advocate racism and xenophobia.

I too, have had my nice Australia day holiday and appreciated it.
Without a drone in the sky to mess up a lovely day with my family.

cheers everyone

*the solution is to keep their hands from the levers of government*

Exactly Csteele, but don't forget that in their culture, the West
is seen as piss weak. They use that to their advantage in tactical
terms. That is why the drones matter and indeed they are getting
results.

*A redirect if I may. Do you agree with Australia's position on landmines and cluster bombs and do you agree with their use by the US in Afghanistan?*

Csteele, I try not to see the world through your eyes of black and white,
then pontificate from the sidelines as you do. I try and understand the
shades of grey involved. I have no problem with
Australia's position. I can also understand the US position, of keeping
options open in a game of strategics. Telling your enemy
that you will under no circumstances use land mines, gives that
enemy a clear advantage of not having to worry about mines in their
planning. Hardly a clever thing to do.

No offense thinker 2, csteele cards on the table.
It is your thread
And about drones, a weapon that targets enemy combatants.
You, as we develop the thread pull cluster bombs and poison gas out of your sleeve and put them on the table.
I wish to yet again,,, counter with human bombs, car bombs, targeting civilians Children and religious ceremony's.
You while cwafing your IL gotten red, infer I am a rough neck, taken as a complement.
Can I pull rockets targeting Israeli villages on the table.
I would like to know what part of the world you come from.
I think you could tell us that, how are you going with your investigation in to Boazy and the other poster, both here now,and this morning together.
So summing it up, I think the thread is evidence enough you target drones for targeting murderers but give only passing interest to targeted murders of women, children and any one in fact unless it is done by, and it never is, Americans on purpose,
Hope every one had a great Aussie day, donated to flood victims and did not burn our flag, it has happened you know.

Dear Belly and Yabby,

As I am on the road again today I will have to wait until this evening to properly address your posts but I did want to take Belly up on something.

What on earth does what part of the world I come from have any bearing on the validity of the arguments I have posted in this thread?

Don't think I am avoiding the question and will give you an answer after I hear from you.

As to AGIR/SPQR after a little investigation then an indication from you that it would mean nothing to our debate I had decided to let it slide. More than happy to pick it up again if you think it will make a difference.

Let us not wander into the PC mud csteele your question may get me into trouble.
But here it is some nations are known to be wingers, biased constantly complaining about every one.
Not so?
You bet it is.
It is you who avoid answering questions not me.

Dear belly,

Still a few hours from home quaffing a Red Rock Cabernet. I have always consider PC simply as us attempting to call for good manners but I'm happy to wallow in some un-PC mud with you. My mate has bet me you are a pommie ex-union official based on the number of times you whinged about the Left in your first dozen posts. I thought you might be first generation. No wine bet on this one though. Me, I was born in Sydney.

Is the AGIR/SPQR question be allowed to pass on or does it get to mean something?

Dear Yabby,

What results are the drones getting?

I can point to increases in Taliban numbers and bombings within Pakistan.

How do you think we should measure their success? Body count? That was tried in Vietnam.

What can you point to?

Can you understand why they have the belief that America in their culture is 'piss weak'?

I watched “Charlie Wilson's War' the other night starring Tom Hanks. Charlie Wilson was a US senator who found himself in the position to covertly funnel many millions of dollars of weapons to the Mujahdeen and was awarded for his part in helping bring down the Soviet empire. But who did the fighting and dying? It wasn't American troops, it was Afghan and Arab militant fighters. Can you blame them for thinking their sacrifices and bravery brought down a super power?

Those who know their history are aware there were many other things at play in the collapse of the USSR, but most don't.

Now another sign to bolster the myth that they are exceptional fighters is the fact that the Americans prefer to send unmanned drones to attack them rather than meeting them on the battlefield.

You said “Telling your enemy that you will under no circumstances use land mines, gives that enemy a clear advantage of not having to worry about mines in their planning. Hardly a clever thing to do. “

Are you implying Australia and the other signatories are not clever?

Cont...

Cont...

The military is in many ways just like a corporation. A corporation's mission statement is to maximise profits for their shareholders end of story. They will use what ever means allowable by law to achieve this even if there is a social cost. It is up to us the citizenry to limit the cost to our society by imposing limits on their behaviour.

The military also has a mission brief, victory by what ever means allowable. However through the history of war it is not the military that makes the rules about what is deemed allowable but we the people. Our representatives sign in our name treaties for prohibitions on chemical and biological weapons, prohibitions on land mines, prohibitions on cluster bombs, the treatment of prisoners etc. In democracies our military, on the whole, abide by those treaties.

All these measures came about because people stood up and said if war is going to be conducted in their name then a standard of behaviour must be observed.

The argument could be made that by turning men and women into killing machines to do our and our government's bidding we have to curb some of their innate morality. It is the duty of the rest of us that we give some moral guidance to the way we want our warriors to fight for us. They may not like it at the time but it has many benefits not only for the way we view ourselves and our nation but also on how well those who have fought for us can reintegrate into our societies.

Some like Timothy McVeigh didn't make it. There is something very chilling in his recounting of being ordered to shoot surrendering Iraqi troops in the first gulf war.

This thread is me saying the use of drone attacks by the secret service of our ally, in a country we are not at war with, is unacceptable behaviour especially when civilians are targeted.

Thankfully there is a growing movement that agree.

You picked a dissipative title for the thread csteele.
And you are indeed doing it well.
Convict stock, generations of us.
If you read others posts you would know.
Aware I am feeding you, giving air to views not shared by many by continuing to post.
You weave and duck ,intent on only your views of reality ,answer only that you wish to.
Few very few fall for it but sadly some do.
If I could get an NRL team,from the true left it would have the better of every team in side stepping.
I would constantly have to retrieve them from the phone box and remind them it is not the meeting room.
It would out fox others hide the ball just about everything.
But never win, intent on saying the grandstand is the target it would never score.
Sniping at one another about what hand the ball is to be carried in left or right.
This Friend of yours, who reads but never posts,is he/she locked in your boot on those trips?

The human ability to invent more efficient ways to kill people goes back to the dark ages with men on white horses talking out from their rears. Is comes down to whom has the sharpest lance or arrows from the advanced side, with the best technology. King Arther always had a problem with one of his knights, espically with the one,s that like to mount the horses from the wrong end. The Taliban have the same problems with camels, however King Arther was a man with vision, fortitude and that brand of deliverance:)

King Arthur has a beautiful wife. The problem is, the knights of the round table keep shagging her. He goes to Merlin, and explains the situation. Merlin says, "I've got just the thing." He pulls a out pair of metal knickers, with a hole in the bottom. Arthur says, "They're no good." But Merlin puts his wand through the hole, and a blade appears and chops his wand in half. Arthur takes them, and padlocks them to his wife. He goes away for a fortnight.
When he returns he lines up all his knights and tells them to drop their pants. All of the knights except one have half their penis lopped off. Arthur said, "You have disgraced the knights of the round table, Go away, and may I never see you again." He comes to the remaining knight Sir Lancelot and says, "For your loyalty, I will give you half of my empire. Lancelot said, "Fank you thirr."

BLUE:)

How do you know when you might be from convict decent?

You take your dog for a walk and both use the same tree.

You can entertain yourself for more than 15 minutes with a flyswatter.

Your boat has not left the driveway in 15 years.

You burn your yard rather than mow it.

The Salvation Army declines your mattress.

You have the local taxidermist on speed dial.

You come back from the dump with more than you took.

You keep a can of Raid on the kitchen table.

Your wife can climb a tree faster than your cat.

Your grandmother has "ammo" on her Christmas list.

You keep flea and tick soap in the shower.

You've been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog.

You go to the stock car races and don't need a program.

You know how many bales of hay your car will hold.

You have a rag for a gas cap.

Your house doesn't have curtains, but your truck does.

You wonder how service stations keep their restrooms so clean.

You consider your license plate personalized because your father made it.

Your lifetime goal is to own a fireworks stand.

You have a complete set of salad bowls and they all say "Cool Whip" on the side.

The biggest city you've ever been to is Wal-Mart.

Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV.

You've used your ironing board as a buffet table.

A tornado hits your neighborhood and does $100,000 worth of improvements.

You've used a toilet brush to scratch your back.

You missed your 5th grade graduation because you were on jury duty.

You think fast food is hitting a deer at 65 mph.

And last, but not least...

Somebody tells you that you've got something in your teeth, so you take them out to see what it is!

BLUE:)

Dear Belly,

You keep accusing me of not answering questions. I realize my grammar, argument construction and editing have suffered from posting off a phone.

You have admitted difficulties as well and I appreciate the frankness but to stop myself from misinterpreting you I will admit to mainly answering those questions that are relatively unambiguous.

I am happy for you to frame up let's say three questions you would like me to answer and I will do so as straightforward as I can. Then you can afford me the same privilege.

As to this being my soapbox I think except for a few travellers it has been shuffled off to the back lot of OLO.

Dear DB,

Thank you. Raised a chuckle, but one would have thought, being so close to Australia Day you could have at least done a little editing. Kmart for Walmart for instance and roo instead of deer.

Shame, shame.

Csteele......yes, sorry about that:).....I was in a bit of a hurry)

BLUE:)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

There you go, Csteele. Lots of militants killed and the people
in the area think that drones are much safer then air attacks
by the Pakistani military, as there is much less collateral damage.

*Are you implying Australia and the other signatories are not clever?*

I am saying that from a strategic military point of view, no it is
not clever. If you want to tie your military's arms behind their
back and expect them to win a war, so be it. I would not be out
there fighting for you, lol.

You of course, are not on the front lines with your life on the line.
It is very easy to sit by the computer and pontificate.

How do you know when you might be from convict decent?

You take your dog for a walk and both use the same tree.

You can entertain yourself for more than 15 minutes with a flyswatter.

Your boat has not left the driveway in 15 years.

You burn your yard rather than mow it.

The Salvation Army declines your mattress.

You have the local taxidermist on speed dial.

You come back from the dump with more than you took.

You keep a can of Raid on the kitchen table.

Your wife can climb a tree faster than your cat.

Your grandmother has "ammo" on her Christmas list.

You keep flea and tick soap in the shower.

You've been involved in a custody fight over a hunting dog.

You go to the Bathurst car races and don't need a program.

You know how many bales of hay your car will hold.

You have a rag for a Fuel cap.

Your house doesn't have curtains, but your ute does.

You wonder how service stations keep their restrooms so clean.

You consider your license plate personalized because your father made it.

Your lifetime goal is to own a fireworks stand.

You have a complete set of salad bowls and they all say "Cool Whip" on the side.

The biggest city you've ever been to is K-Mart.

Your working TV sits on top of your non-working TV.

You've used your ironing board as a buffet table.

A cyclone hits your neighborhood and does $100,000 worth of improvements.

You've used a toilet brush to scratch your back.

You missed your 5th grade graduation because you had to get to the dole office.

You think fast food is hitting a roo at 65 km's.

And last, but not least...

Somebody tells you that you've got something in your teeth, so you take them out to see what it is!

There! all fixed:)

BLUE:)

*I realize my grammar, argument construction and editing have suffered from posting off a phone.*

Sheesh Csteele, correct me if I am wrong, but I am forming the
opinion that you might be a traveller by trade, so posting from
your mobile, at your bosses expense.

How moral would that be?

I can yet again, see why it is deep blue, bright,, it would not be appropriate.
No coward,proudly from convict stock, I can not justify to post any more in a thread in festered by the gentle man.
Give me this only before condemning me, read the post history of our man of the hour.
A clear and true reason to understand my remarks about Wits and Twits.
good by to the thread we will talk again csteele, while any enemy of my enemy may be true, watch your new Friend.

Dear Belly,

Thank you for your contributions to the thread. We will have to agree to disagree but it has been a spirited discourse which is all to the good.

Dear Yabby,

It has been more than a couple of decades since any boss ever peered over my expense account.

Regardless, working for yourself always makes for a very thin expense account however I have never been the type of boss to pour over employee's expenses either. Always taken them at their word. One can worry ones self into an early grave otherwise.

Now to your assertion “There you go, Csteele. Lots of militants killed and the people in the area think that drones are much safer then air attacks by the Pakistani military, as there is much less collateral damage.”

I'm happy to accept the obvious, that a drone is more accurate than the more primitive bombing campaign of the Pakistan Airforce. But it is like saying I'm happier to have a sniper firing in my general direction rather than a machine gun while in fact all I want is there to be no firing at all.

I had seen the Wiki article you refer to and initially found it quite interesting. However on doing a touch more research I found the group who did the survey is questionable. Any links to their website show the site to be removed.

I did find this on another site.

“AIRRA shall focus thematically to understand and recommend for human security, social development, regional cooperation and an environment free of extremism and terrorism that would probably usher in an era of pluralism, equal economic and political opportunities, rule of law, and individual and collective empowerment for the people of South and Central Asia within their state institutional frameworks in consonance with nature.”

Happy to examine any material that supports the conclusion made in the Wiki piece but right now I don't.

Dear DB,

Sorry mate, not even close.

Try tip instead of dump.
Sheep dog or pig dog instead of hunting dog.
Hay bales instead of bales of hay.
Pretty certain there isn't any Cool Whip here.
We gradute in grade six rather than five like the States.
Finally 65kms ain't all that quick, try 100.

csteele..there are quite a number of decent posters here which in-clues bellies at times, however this has been twice he has stuck his nose in where it didn't belong , hence the gallantry wise cracks. The jokes and posts here were only to him. I find that some Australians are nothing but smart-arses and bankers, but you get that all over the world, don't you. I just think there's no need for it personalty, and will defend myself if need be, and so can others here with-out that vile man playing Sir Lancelot.

I have a number of religion friends that don't act like gooses, and think that their brand of belief will save the world. It seems they can dish it out, but cant take it, well.....how Un-Australian is that. Now Iam glad you have brought up Australia Day.......and for what I read in some local rags, the discussing mess that was left behind after the events were over..."and that's how you treat your country is it bellies?

What a disgraceful attitude and contempt for such a lucky/beautiful land, which for just a handful.....just don't deserve it.

Shame shame shame!

Now lets put this silly-ness away, and back to the topic at hand.

P/S.....bellies said I talk to people that aren't there.....Its called a blog you TWIT!



BLUE

Csteele, Wicki is a pretty open website. If anyone can show that
the information is not credible and that their information is more
credible, they are free to change the pages.

Clearly this has not happened, so the information there, is the
most credible that we have. You are of course, free to prove
them wrong.

Until such time, I'll regard it as the best information that we
have on the subject.

Judging by the article, it sounds to me like quite a few of the
locals are quite happy to get rid of the militants, one way
or another.

Dear yabby,

This group is really quite an enigma and I love enigmas so will do a little more digging tonight.

I have just learnt a new term apparently borrowed from the porn industry now used by drone pilots to describe those who are running for their lives from a missile attack. It is 'squirters'.

Google it with the word drone.

There is anticipation within the CIA for the new Gorgon Eye technology that will give the drone 9 cameras with which to track individual 'squirters' as they flee and deal with them individually.

Hard to think of a more dehuminizing word. I suppose it helps them do their jobs without thinking too hard about what they are participating in.

yabby quote.."it sounds to me'..lol

'like quite a few of the locals
are quite happy to get rid of the militants..,

one way
or another."

lol

well this milit-ant... has served his time
those who thought... to 'get rid of him'..failed

its really typical of pests

you can napalm them into extinction
but hey there goes the next one

drop the next drone
and the next drone

[lest we forget we napalmed millions of japs to death
till we finally nuked them]

before you know it..
your cure ..is the real problem

lets face it...usa is about war
and installing tinpot/dictators..then selling them arms

[they are there to kill...and control]..
the list is self evident
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/it-aint-just-mubarak-7-of-worst.html

here from just one of the hundreds of agencies of usa
A Timeline of CIA Atrocities
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
http://adventofdeception.com/cia-demonic-operation

http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/02/04/the-egyptian-tinderbox-how-banks-and-investors-are-starving-the-third-world/
http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23078

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=23078
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m74606&hd=&size=1&l=e

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/2011/02/stuart-littlewood-out-with-the-collaborators-in-with-honest-unity/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/es/content/ever-wonder-why-european-banks-were-so-angry-us-something-about-not-making-good-some-toxic-g

http://dailybail.com/home/must-see-ratigan-bombshell-how-the-federal-reserve-wall-stre.html

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/21st-century-inquisition.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HweLqfPiNQQ

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/02/04/gordon-duff-enough-is-enough-is-america-worth-defending/

by their deeds are they revealed and reviled
the Origins of the Overclass.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-overclass.html
Myth: There’s no "vast right wing conspiracy" to get Clinton.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-clintonrightwingconspiracy.html
Myth: Conservative think tanks are the answer to liberal academia.
http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-thinktank.htm

http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/prophecy-in-egypt-and-fear-mongering.html
http://www.arabnewsblog.net/2011/02/03/mubarak-defies-a-humiliated-america-emulating-netanyahu/
http://www.salon.com/wires/world/2011/02/02/D9L4U3A80_ml_egypt/index.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1353128/Egypt-crisis-Secret-police-blamed-peace-protesters-gunned-Cairo.html

but this farce moves on

tank spraying unknown chemical weapon
http://yfrog.com/f/hspn7xqj/
[no doudt some other weapons shall be unleashed]

journalists cbeing rounded up
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=13783
http://www.youtube.com/storyful
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/abbas-blackout-of-the-egyptian-revolution/

the neocon propaganda machinations running
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=13782
http://dailybail.com/home/14-points-to-save-america.html
http://www.salon.com/news/egyptian_protests/?story=%2Fnews%2Ffeature%2F2011%2F02%2F03%2Fegypt_vodafone_text_messages
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/02/tony-blair-mubarak-force-good/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/the-wretchedness-of-tony-blairs-policies/

weapons of mass control supply assured
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/no-plans-to-halt-us-military-aid-to.html

snipers..pick off any leaders
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/163459.html

israel offers support..[for their man]..not the egyptians
http://whatreallyhappened.com/to%20the%20ceasefire%20and%20a%20possible%20prisoner%20exchange%20deal%20with%20Hamas.
http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&id=224181
http://gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/new-clashes-as-egypt-protesters-push-back-rivals-1.756374
http://rmiglobal.org/
http://poorrichards-blog.blogspot.com/2011/02/egyptian-intifada-reveals-washingtons.html
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/when-israel-s-protective-net-of-tyranny-tears-1.340720
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gqJ-JR_vBo0

manufacturing cia-os
http://world.mediamonitors.net/Headlines/Mubarak-s-Last-Gambit-Manufacturing-Chaos
http://www.zcommunications.org/u-s-chickens-come-home-to-roost-in-egypt-by-marjorie-cohn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmFg_KPkDRw
http://www.activistpost.com/2011/02/french-anti-riot-police-protest-sarkozy.html
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/neocons-support-democracy-unless-its-democratically-elected/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wi3K8T3pPQ
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=205962
http://www.salon.com/wires/world/2011/02/02/D9L4U3A80_ml_egypt/index.html
who next
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/02/01/international/i213007S12.DTL
http://vob.org/en/index.php?show=news&action=article&id=720
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgjIgMdsEuk&feature=player_embedded#
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/support-demos-for-egypt-continue-photos-and-videos/
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-02/turkish-premier-calls-for-mubarak-to-announce-transition-plan.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/globalbusiness/8296987/IMF-raises-spectre-of-civil-wars-as-global-inequalities-worsen.html
http://robertscourt.blogspot.com/2011/02/latest-round-of-wikileaks-docs-hype.html
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/02/02/american_allies_dictators/index.html

http://original.antiwar.com/giraldi/2011/02/02/how-about-a-clean-break-with-israel/
http://revolutionarypolitics.tv/video/viewVideo.php?video_id=13781&title=george-galloway-speaking-the-truth-about-egypt
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2011/02/03/mubarak-gets-a-dose-of-his-own-medicine/

and the multihydra beast continues its trickery
http://dinarvets.com/forums/index.php?/topic/52464-do-not-use-safety-deposit-boxes/?s=a8982355ea3dc883a28277066091aa7f#ixzz1CoqaHkAs