Pelican I look back on the positive social legislation that the Labor party has instituted and I thank god they were there. But I look at this lot and see a Fabianesque agenda of "being seen" to be productive, but it is window dressing. There is no great social reform on their agenda. It could have been "water our country" or even” Singapore style infrastructure for all" but we got bats, sheds, and faster internet is coming and that took our entire surplus and left us a huge debt.

Regarding the positive things that the socialist movement has brought to our society, you cannot use that as a marker to integrity because that is in the past and when we look at the Labor State and Commonwealth governments it is apparent they are failures without integrity, perhaps a generational thing in the Labor party as I have suggested to Belly in the past. Labor heartland has been decimated over the past 30 years because of the globalization you mentioned, there are no workers left.

But you did not mention that the first agreements that painted the picture of dropping tariffs and losing all manufacturing and value adding that supported our economy had unanimous support from both sides of politics, and they both voted the protocols of the Lima Declaration into legislation. The Labor pollies of the time did not think of their union brothers on that occasion and our first world living standards have followed production to the third world, leaving us to dig up and grow stuff, except now they are taking the water from the farmers so we may be a net importer of food within 5 years. How can you defend the incompetent on party lines. Excrement stinks because it is excrement, things are not going well and it will get worse under the Gizzard government.

You can't just say "dresses capitalism up to be the fairy godmother." and then jump to the "failings of extreme capitalism"

It's either one or the other, one is good one is bad. And it's regulation from our leaders that creates the latter. The elite would never have gotten to where they are if we had a true free market because we would all be able to compete on a level playing field.

Workers would have it better because they would have more employers to choose from, they certainly wouldn't work for a company that didn't pay enough to sustain them or they would have more opportunity to be self employed. Right now we have a government regulated minimum wage that's sending people broke by the millions everyday!

The problem now is how to fix it? More rules are just making it worse.

Why can't I open a bank in my own home? Why can't I raffle my house? Why can't I get in my car and offer a taxi service, why can't I start my own power station and offer cheaper power to my neighbours. All without having to pay homage to our tyrannical masters?

If I did any of those things and I didn't provide a good service, my customers wouldn't use me. Should I then be paid a stimulus by robbing money from my customers at the point of a gun because I was to big to fail?

Try to see through the noise and corruption Pelican. It would be a very different world, a much better one I believe.

In an attempt to protect people from themselves, we're taking away the very fabric of life they need and desire. And we're breeding a race of codependents unable to look after themselves and putting more pressure on the ones who can. It's going downhill fast as can be witnessed everyday and everyday they bring in a new regulation to try and keep it going, only compounding the problem further.

Dear SOG...those 2 posts were of the most profound kind I've seen for a long time. ViVa SOG!

How I wish we could have lot's of discussions of this calibre.

PELLY... you've missed the boat there mate. You are seeing this in tersm of 'right/left' and claiming they are both equally evil.

But what you miss is this. Unrestrained Capitalism can only work for a limited time in a democracy. Voters will kick the bastard out when enough people are able to see the level of corruption and greed.

In that is the biggest danger. Howso you ask ? easy..the 'Fabians' and socialist ALways cast/portray themselves as the 'good guy' who sticks up for the downtrodden...so it is almost a natural law that they will eventually take power if they can pull the wool over enough ignorant sheeps eyes.
Afterall...they actually dress like sheep.. but the capitalist? His version is to speak about 'jobs jobs' and claim a vibrant economy will cause many who have capital to invest and create those jobs.

Somehow.....they end up outsourcing jobs to China to cut costs and reward shareholders and few local jobs are in fact created.. but they still end up with the newestmodel corporate jet!

So..there are capitalist 'wolves' and Fabian wolves. Don't you think the real task at hand is for us to EDUCATE OURSELVES about this and rather than squabble about right and left, to actually get out there and DOOOOOO something about it?

That was the whole purpose of this thread.

Raw..ur woffling mate :)

But Raw...the opening line of your last post makes a lot of sense.

Pelly.. yes.. extreme or unrestrained capitalism or socialism is awful.
But the point I've been trying to make over the past few months..including even my nick...is that capitalists and socialists are getting into bed together and having wild political/economic sex at OUR expense.

Look at Soros, Strong, Gore just to name 3.. capitalists extrordinaire!

But as Strong says, he has socialist beliefs but works on a capitalist method...(for HIMSELF that is)

THIS is where the danger is. Truly and Roooolly....truly.

a) Rich Capitalist/Socialist wolves will promote socialist ideas and foundations which ultimately give THEM more power and influence.

b) Trade Unions will become more focused on those industries which cannot be outsourced (such as infrastructure related occupations)

c) The Unions will gradually take the place of 'The State' in the communist sense where 'party members' do verrrrry well and non party members are hung out to dry.

EXAMPLES. Electrical Trade Union (Dean Mighell) CFMEU Martin Kingham.http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/02/1051382093689.html

I saw an advert just this morning for an 'electrician' for an infrastructure job offering $120k-140k salary! ! !

How is it that an engineer can spend 4 yrs training and accumulate a huge HECS debt which will take years to payoff.. can get perhaps 60% of that.... but a sparky does
http://www.tafe.vic.gov.au/tafecourses/search/Courses/Detail.asp?ID=40703

1 yr... for a fairly HIGH level of training (for sparkies)

This is OUTrageous! It will create all manner of discontent in society, not to mention the attempt by OTHERS who have more training to attain similar salaries or better.
End Result ? a) *country broke* b) *Society brokEN*

""" Raw..ur woffling mate :) """

You're right, I'm good at that :)

""" rather than squabble about right and left, to actually get out there and DOOOOOO something about it? """

I did that for 20 years until the wolves made it too hard :(
Now I have no incentive anymore, and there are no rewards!
Money was never the reward I was looking for, just so you know!

Maybe we need to reopen wolf hunting season!

Indeed Raw.. we might.

Number one target for me is the ETU... then the VHREOC..the Greens...

and spineless politicians.

Imagine this.. a network of people who could display relevant signs at major intersections during peak hour..and at train stations.. same message at all of them on one day.. then a more developed message the next... people might tweak.. who knows.

Or.. the country could just go down the crapper until they suddenly wake up to the fact that it's too late.