A most interesting and important Roman General...that much I'll say.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabius_Maximus

Questions which the interested reader will find helpful in seeing his relevance to 'now'.. are the following:

1/ What high political office was he appointed to during the punic wars?
2/ How had the Roman legions performed up till that time of his appointment against the forces of Carthage (Hannibal) ?

Think (not in order but tactics)

-Battle of Cannae http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae
-Battle of Trasimine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_battles#2nd_century_BC
-Battle of Silarus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Silarus

The issue clearly became "how can Rome defeat Hannibal"?

One thing was certain..."not in open combat"

So.... next question (and the most important for this thread) is:

3/ WHAT strategy did Fabius Maximus adopt to defeat Carthage and Hannibal?

4/ DID...it work?

5/ Can anyone see relevance for our current political direction?

6/ Can anyone identify major players in our political game who have embraced Fabius Maximus' strategy ?
7/ Where might those players be trying to take us as a culture and nation ?

You draw an interesting parallel here. I think, most of all, that it shows how unimaginative we can be when it comes to war. It appears that it has always been that way and, as current events in Afghanistan show, we still are.

[Deleted because of profanity.]

Hi Raw and Oto
I'm trying to draw out the 'method' used by Fabius in warfare against a militarily superior foe :)

This thread is but one of a number I intend to raise, which will develop into something which goes right to the top of Aussie politics and encompasses the world as a matter of fact.

I can't reveal too much at this stage as I'd rather people see it for themselves. You know..'bottom up' rather than top down :)

Raw, you say something clicked...then you mention a pestilence..but which one ?

Oto.. it has nothing to do with Afghanistan FYI. Although..... the strategy employed by Fabius 'could' be applied there to a degree.
If anything, the Taliban are employing his strategy already.

Think "The inevitability of gradualness"

I invite Pelican and Son of Gloin, Ludwig, Oliver, and any other fairly rational poster to participate here.. it will prove most enticing as time passes :) Pericles 'marks' have improved as a result of his fairly rational approach to Grateful so he is also welcome.

At the risk of anticipating the direction of your argument, would the Fabian Society have any relevance here?

I kinda like Plutarch's analysis, myself.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/fabius_p.html

"I do not find that Fabius won any set battle but that against the Ligurians, for which he had his triumph; whereas Pericles erected nine trophies for as many victories obtained by land and by sea."

Although he does go on to say...

"But no action of Pericles can be compared to that memorable rescue of Minucius, when Fabius redeemed both him and his army from utter destruction; a noble act combining the highest valour, wisdom, and humanity."

He's nothing if not even-handed, this Plutarch.

"On the other side, it does not appear that Pericles was ever so overreached as Fabius was by Hannibal with his flaming oxen. His enemy there had, without his agency, put himself accidentally into his power, yet Fabius let him slip in the night, and, when day came, was worsted by him, was anticipated in the moment of success, and mastered by his prisoner. If it is the part of a good general, not only to provide for the present, but also to have a clear foresight of things to come, in this point Pericles is the superior"

I'm enjoying this.

"Pericles, meantime, no man had ever greater opportunities to enrich himself, having had presents offered him from so many kings and princes and allies, yet no man was ever more free from corruption. And for the beauty and magnificence of temples and public edifices with which he adorned his country, it must be confessed, that all the ornaments and structures of Rome, to the time of the Caesars, had nothing to compare, either in greatness of design or of expense, with the lustre of those which Pericles only erected at Athens."

Good ol' Plutarch. Such a great historian. Thanks Boaz.

Although I am pretty sure you had some other "lesson" for us when opening this thread.

And I'm probably not alone when I shuddered slightly when I read this...

>>This thread is but one of a number I intend to raise...<<

Oh dear.

Al, as well as dissecting the acts of the man I also consider the "character" of the individual particularly if their tenure is long and eventful. That indicates that they are an enabler and a survivor, at which point you consider the man behind the deeds. His interpersonal strategies, his reaction to adversity and particularly his ability to reason and then react at a time more prudent to victory rather than a time chosen by his opposition.

From childhood Fabius was quiet and not quick to comment, he considered his responses. As he matured he developed a pragmatic streak that helped him identify fact over perception and these traits gained him the respect of his peers in the cut throat senate. He was a sage like figure and the extrapolation I make in regard to today’s political scenario is that there is no Fabius Maximus on Australia’s political horizon as far as I can see.

But if your reference is to him blaming the woes of the people on their losing faith in their gods, that is the pragmatic politician. He had a divisive state and religion would bind and strengthen the security of the state, and that was the outcome. Hitler instituted a community wide mantra that every German followed and believed that translates as "all in step". This community maxim was meant to overcome any factious fighting in the community that impedes the program, and that was the outcome. Fabius buoyed his state with the community and hope that religion brings, again I see no Fabius on the horizon.

""" Raw, you say something clicked...then you mention a pestilence..but which one? """

I'm pretty sure you're referring to the UN?

Fabius beat Hannibal by attacking his foraging parties and burning crops to cut him off from food. He engaged him in a war of attrition, just like the watermelons in the UN are trying to do to the capitalist world through their agenda 21 policy. And is probably why we are now killing off our farmers and major industry through taxation and green bureaucracy. Slowly but surely they'll send us all broke and starving, reducing our numbers before they move in for the kill.

It's quiet uncanny how the battle between joolea and krudd has striking similarities to Fabius and Marcus Minucius almost as if they're reenacting history in real time, even down to the s l o w, t a l k i n g, j o o l e a :)

Did I make an idiot of myself yet?

Yeah, yeah, I know. I did that a long time ago :)

Aaah...this IS turning interesting :) I love it when we dig.

Pericles.. I must confess I did not realize it would lead to such a manifest adulation of your chosen nick.. but that's not a problem for the direction here under consideration. Your namesake was but one of a cast of characters history has given us.

Beelz... ssshhhhhhhh

Raw.. this is not the place to consign our debating partners such names as 'idiots' :) no.. by no means, you are extremely perceptive.

One might underline your observation that given the fact of Roman defeat in open combat with Hannibal... Fabius chose a very unexpected but eventually successful direction did he not?

Dear SOG.. no.. re blaming the people for neglecting the gods is far from my central thoughts here. It is of course a possible direction one might take (as a Christian) but it so happens that it's not my focus this time. It's big.. very big.

Though...I suppose it might be pertinent to replace 'the gods' with.. "Human Rights" ? :)

Now..

WOLF. A wolf is a predatory animal, which must rely on stealth and cunning and ultimately numbers to subdue and kill it's prey.

SHEEP. A sheep is a docile animal.. driven by herd instinct, little independant thought, much like todays 'man (voter) in the street'

A Nursery Rhyme.
Little Red Riding hood.....

2 b continued.....

Oh golly gosh, you're talking about Abbot using the Fabian strategy against the Fabians!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy

Is it really necessary to play these little games, ALGOREisaSliMebAlL :)

Au Contrare Raw...(your such a pleasant person :) I just spend a month in the sin bin for 'abuse'..and you call me a slimeball ? haha... it's cool.

No..I'm not talking about Abbott at all. Turn your gaze more to the West/Left and think mucccccch longer in time span from our recent political situation.

Here is something to ponder.

Who said (in summary/paraphrase) "If members of society cannot justify their usefulness and value, we need to find a humane way to eliminate them"

That person also said "We need to find a humane 'lethal chamber'"

Does the name of a person who followed up on that thought rather dramatically come to mind ?

Would it worry you if prominent Australian politicians subscribe to the thinking of such people ?

Why would a wolf dress as a sheep ? (or a granny)
What is the ultimate intention of the wolf?

And what is the likely outcome for the many thouasands of sheep in the midst of which the wolf, so dressed, is mingling?

Ah not you are the slime ball, AlboreIs. Sorry if you thought I was referring to your personally!

Interesting. When one strips the details away and comes up with the "raw bones" of the man, we can see a few things:

1) He had a tendency to sit back and let others destroy themselves rather than doing it for him (consider the case of his good friend and rash, impulsive master of horse).

2) He was particularly keen on making an APPEARANCE of solving problems without necessarily actually solving them (consider the excessive sacrifice).

3) He capitalised on disaster (consider his pushing the consul to step down during his dictatorship).

4) He thought outside the box, and won (consider his failure to fight like a Roman when confronted by Hannibal). Of course, his defeat of Hannibal was as much a result of the Carthaginians' betrayal of their general than it was a result of the Romans' good strategy.

5) He was a man of last resort, insulted for his slowness, his ugliness and his apparent cowardice - but when it came down to the last resort, he had absolute power (or at least got his own way without question) because the people had run out of other options.

With these characteristics in mind, he is almost a generic "stock" character in politics. A great opposition leader who was lucky enough to avoid ever being a substantive leader in his own right.

""" That person also said "We need to find a humane 'lethal chamber' """

Here I guess you're referring to the Fabian, George Bernard Shaw?
And his strong beliefs in eugenics.

""" Does the name of a person who followed up on that thought rather dramatically come to mind? """

Many of their ilk have made such references. Maurice Strong, The Duke or Edinburgh, and few others I can't quite remember their names. I think AlGoReIsaApSychoPath may even have murmured such vulgarities.

""" Would it worry you if prominent Australian politicians subscribe to the thinking of such people? """

The sheep would never believe you, it's been said plenty of times. They just don't listen!

Do you think they could get that far, ALGOREStiNks?
It's an uncomfortable subject to be discussing during these political times, but rest assured they wouldn't get very far, even if they have disarmed the public.

Ohhhh OTO....how close you are ! not only warm but red hot!

//2) He was particularly keen on making an APPEARANCE of solving problems without necessarily actually solving them //

People using his strategy do the same thing. They hold to the idea of "Inevitablity of Gradualism"

You would be aware I'm sure of how politics in the west has travelled since the formation of the U.N. You would not be ignorant of how "Human Rights Law" ...'appears' to solve problems....but doesn't.

All those things are but a smokescreen for the ultimate objective.

RAW..now you hit a raw nerve :) but you caught me by surprise when you mentioned the name "Maurice Strong" as one who (like Shaw) advocated Eugenics. But I'm surprised that you missed the 'big' name of Hitler. He is the only one who has outperformed all of them in 'practical application' of the Fabian strategy.

Now that the picture is becoming clearer....should it not be of considerable concern for all of us (as sheep) to look at those who are associated with this kind of thinking and ask 'How did they impact Australia'...we don't need to ask 'why' because we already know that.

This might help enlighten us:

http://www.fabian.org.au/1.asp

Albert Jaime Grassby, AM (12 July 1926 – 23 April 2005), Australian politician, was Minister for Immigration in the Whitlam Labor government. He initiated sweeping reforms in immigration, human rights, and is often known as the father of Australian "multiculturalism".

Noteworthy is:
"but Grassby could point to his enormous popularity within multicultural Australia and the subsequent growth of support for the ALP from this section of the community as more than adequate recompense for any possible loss of support from white Australia."

But GRANDMA....what big TEETH you have......

Hi Al
I find your posts difficult and wish you would just start a topic with the...well...topic, this one could have been tagged the Inevitablity of Gradualism in reference to your subject which appears to be multiculturalism or is it socialist conspiracy?

Societies by nature tend to be progressive and they change, unless stifled by a strong arm regime. For example we have inevitably moved to the centre of politics (with further encroachments to the Right) with the growth of the middle class. Socialism is not on the horizon anytime soon within strong social democratic structures that predominate in the West.

Why don't you just say what it is you want to say instead of working in riddles. The 'inevitably of gradualism' worked wonders in many areas including the abolition of slavery.

Some Fabians might believe that the inevitable demise of capitalsim will lead to socialism but that does not mean that it will be so for the reasons outlined in the link below. I suspect events like the GFC will mean more a tinkering with capitalism and improvements via regulation within a mixed economy.

http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki/Why_did_socialists_believe_in_gradualism,_and_why_has_gradualism_failed%3F

Dear precious Pelly :)

I'm sorry this has taken a winding road to get 'there'...but if I had come out and said (like a sledge hammer) "Julia Gillard is a Fabian Socialist and is seeking a Socialist transformation of Australia"
welllll... I would have been immediately consigned to the polemical dustbin labelled 'stopppp ramming stuff down our throats' :)

I'ts much much better when people discover things for themselves isn't it ?

But your link was magnificent...it brought out some very good points and I totally accept them in one way...but not in another.
I accept them in that the link shows the shrinking working class and thus a reduced electoral clout. *tick*

But the true gradualism which we are confronted with is much bigger than our own political situation.
The real 'wolf' dressed in a sheep or as Grandma is the UN and it's infection with 'bubonic' socialism. It's driven by very very rich people...such as 'me' and Maurice Strong, George Soros and other capitalists.

You will find a wolf dressed in a Green sheeps skin and in the Electrical Trade Union, in the CFMEU which have already cast aside their camoflage and are ready to eat Red Riding Hood.(us)

The insidious 'gradualism' of the HREOC has to be seen to be believed.
One would only recognize this by very close scrutiny of their legal submissions.(which I've done)

Fortunately for we sheep...and red riding hoods, the Wood cutter did come to the rescue in the end :)

Who is our 'wood cutter' today who will kill the wolf?

Congratulations on a well-thought-out strategy, Al.

> Who is our 'wood cutter' today who will kill the wolf?

It may not be possible, nor desirable. Quint Fab deliberately avoided a direct attack on Hannibal, but succeeded by indirect means. If we're to learn from him, we must not think in terms of 'killing', but perhaps of starving the wolf to death. What is his favourite food? Money. So ... how many here are aware that the Reserve Bank of Oz is a PRIVATE bank, not the national (public) bank that the Commonwealth originally was. I don't much like their politics or Larouche, but the information at:

http://www.cecaust.com.au/

provides some very useful background. To whom does Australian money belong? Official answer: the Reserve Bank. Why? Because they say so. What if we, the people, decided to take back control of our own money. The wolf would starve to death.

Beelz
there is a bigger wolf in my opinion...and the wood cutter for this moment is.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47V-dpiLM78&feature=related

If he fails.. we all fail. (with the notable exception of your (and his) superior.. the Messiah :)

To be truthful..there are many wolves.. operating in a loose pack.

The answer is:

1/ Awareness
2/ Democratic choice.

But we must not forget 'self denial' in the sense that we don't vote for the first whore politician who comes along and offers us anything we want...for a price.(our souls)

A picture paints a 1000 words.

and so... we should all (yes.. all) be fully and acutely aware of the symbolism in this picture/image which hangs in the London School of Economics.

http://www2.lse.ac.uk/newsAndMedia/news/archives/2006/FabianWindow.aspx

It's worth noting that this Window was not made public until 1947, many decades after the Fabians had already gathered much momentum.

Emmeline Pankhurst the Suffragette (and Terrorist) was a Fabian.

http://williamabond.blogspot.com/2008/09/suffragette-amazons.html

The fire bombing continued: Emily Davison burnt five rooms of a house belonging to Lloyd George, (The Prime Minster of Britain during the First World War). His speeches were also interrupted by the Suffragettes and he was to remark: “I have no desire to speak by gracious permission of Queen Christabel.”

November 18, 1913 became a day called “Black Friday” as crowd of Women led by the Emmeline Pankurst tried to storm Parliament but were held back by the police, the Women did not give in. They fought a brutal battle with the police for six hours and the police eventually had to arrest the rioters

Really ALGOREisAdiLl, did we really need to follow this long drawn out path only to be told Glen Beck and Sarah Palin are our saviour?

Oh dear!

And you say "2 Democratic choice."

Would that be the same democratic choice where 51% of the people get to tell the other 49% what to do? You know like two foxes and a hen voting on what's for dinner? Or in our case where 38% of the people in cahoots with another deluded minority get to tell the other 50% what to do. You know like two foxes and a hyena "telling" the chicken what's for dinner?

Perhaps you see them as a beacon of light because of their belief in fairy tales and unicorns? If that's the case, Hannibal has entered Rome and we're truly doomed :(

Dear Raw

nope... not only did we not need to go down this convoluted path to show that...(Beck and Palin are not our saviors, they are simply voices)

Because that wasn't/isn't the goal of the thread.

The real goal was to show that there are political forces at work which, like wolves in sheeps clothing, portray themselves as one thing, but in reality are another.

Those 'political forces' are in fact secularism/humansim/socialism, but mostly socialism.

COMMUNISM Objective, dictatorship of the working classes and abolition of private property through violent revolution.

SOCIALISM/Fabians Objective, dictatorship of a social/intellectual elite in the 'name' of the working classes, by stealth and gradualism rather than violence.

The EVIDENCE is all around us. Just today the Greens in Melbourne called for the re-acquisition by the state of all public transport.
They cited 'massive public subsidies' as a reason. Strange..THAT was the reasons they were privatized.. the great losses they were previously incurring.

Human Rights law (for minorities) is Fabian socialism.
Equality law is Fabian Socialism.
Multiculturalism is Fabian Socialism.
Open Borders/Assylum seekers is Fabian Socialism.
Gay 'rights' is Fabian socialism.
Feminazi'sm is Fabian Socialism.
"Tolerance and Inclusion" (of/for all but majorities) is Fabian Socialism
"Hate" laws are Fabian Socialism.
Religous Vilification laws are Fabian Socialism.
Race Discrimination laws (when applied ONLY to support minorities) is Fabian Socialism.

Do you see it now mate ?

I don't care WHO shouts about it... Beck,Palin, Blind Freddie or his sister Nellie... as long as the warning is going out.

The thing that was to be avoided was any mention of selected political forces at work which, like wolves in sheeps clothing, portray themselves as one thing, but in reality are another.

Those 'political forces' market themselves as "family orientated" but really are front's for extremist religious groups.

There are way's of explaining that they are not officially church run so it's all OK - really.

R0bert

Good Grief Al. Do you see Fabian Socialists in your sleep. Do you have a problem with universal health care and education or law enforcement and national security. God help us if national security is privatised - see how the profit motive aids us then.

To take your points:

Human Rights law encompasses all groups but is emphasised when there is a legitimate persecution.
Equality law encompasses all groups.
Multiculturalism is part of the drive for economic growth and was strongly supported by RW parties. It is also a hope than mankind can live with each other without fear and while respecting each other's beliefs.
Open Borders/Assylum seekers is about providing a safe haven for the persecuted, ostensibly arising from the great injustices that arose when the Jews fled Nazi Germany.
Gay 'rights' is about not about socialism - otherwise there would be no RW gay men (and there are), it is about freedom of the individual to share in equality under the law. Freedom of the Individual Al, think about that for a moment.
Feminazi'sm is not a threat - there is about 1 feminazi (those aspiring to world domination) for every 10M normal feminists (okay I made that stat up but from my experience this could be extrapolated as thus).
"Tolerance and Inclusion" is also about freedom of the individual within a democratic society. The freedom to practice your own religion within the law.
"Hate" laws-the intent is good even if the legislation is somewhat hazy.
Religous Vilification laws are not about socialism but about freedom of the individual - yes again there is a fine line between freedom of speech and villification. A difficult one I grant you, but not about socialism.
Race Discrimination laws (when applied ONLY to support minorities) is unjust but it is not Fabian Socialism.

Do you see it now mate ?

""" Do you see it now mate? """

What I see is that you're as confused as the rest of them, ALGOREisCoNfuSeD.
Throughout man's history his mind has been indoctrinated turned to mush by all these rules and isms.
When are people going to wake up and realise no human is a god, king, ruler of another and no human has the right to tell another human how to live their life?

Life has become so complicated that we're all arguing in a circulatory fashion of the times.
All those issues you see as Fabian/Socialism, I see as individual rights, some might refer to them as inalienable rights.

When one group or another through indoctrination and thereby causing confusion try to push their beliefs on another, we end up exactly where we are at present. Some try to explain it away in different terms such as democracy, law, border security, cultural purity, patriotism and all the other nonsense excuses modern man has confusingly embedded in his mashed up mind. You need to understand that they're all band-aids hiding the festering wound beneath.

I understand you're trying to protect your fellow man from things you see as threats to your existence, but by labelling them as you've done, you've just shown you're as guilty as the ones you despise.

Until we learn that we have no right to tell another living soul how they should live even when 51% of us are in agreement against the other, humanity will not survive. There are but only three rules we should expect of any human being and they are well known. I'll list them here for all who seem to have forgotten them.

cont...

1) Cause no Injury to another.
2) Cause no harm to another.
3) Cause no loss to another.

These three simple rules are all humanity need to coexist in peace and harmony and to progress man through his evolution to ascension. Once we all accept that all people should be sui juris, then and only then will all that troubles you, I and everyone else be solved!

Think about it for a while ALGOREWiLlLeEdyODoWntHeWroNgPaTh. All these rules, laws, statutes and isms that man has constrained himself with. Where have they got us? When one makes a rule it effects another, then we make a rule to protect the effected, only to displease someone else, then we have another group manipulating all these rules for their own benefit and so on and so on. Has it worked? Is it working?

People are now so afraid of true freedom and liberty, they see it as a threat to their very existence. Somehow they've convinced themselves life wouldn't work that way, that they couldn't have a nice home, a big TV, a nice car, a peaceful fulfilling life. These delusions are just that, delusions and fear generated through history by all these stupid rules and isms.

How many people world wide would it take to enforce these three simple rules?
How much simpler would life be if we didn't need to constantly try to subdue others into conforming to a myriad of false beliefs to satisfy our own personal needs without thought of the other. Would we not all have more time to do what we all want to do, enjoy our little time alive!

Is simplicity really that difficult?

No wonder you had to approach your new fixation from an oblique angle, Boaz. If you'd simply written "Fabians are jolly dangerous, don't you kmow" - which is about the sum total of your argument, it would appear - no-one would have responded.

So, full marks for bringing Quintus Fabius Maximus to our attention. At least it gave me the excuse to introduce you to Plutarch - I'll bet you hadn't made that connection before you started, eh?

It's brought a few new members to your fan club, though.

I think you'll find Beelzebub a worthy addition - his economic theories are right up there at the Arjay level, and his politics... well, the site he pointed you to says it all, I reckon.

But it's all just another anti-Green diatribe, isn't it. Pity CJ isn't here to enjoy it.

>>Just today the Greens in Melbourne called for the re-acquisition by the state of all public transport. They cited 'massive public subsidies' as a reason. Strange..THAT was the reasons they were privatized.. the great losses they were previously incurring<<

Well... exactly.

If privatization didn't eliminate the need for taxpayers' money to provide an adequate service, it was patently not the solution in the first place, was it? What could be more logical than to bring it back under government control?

Sometimes - no, make that quite often - I'm convinced that you don't actually think before you write.

But please, think twice about making good this threat...

>>This thread is but one of a number I intend to raise...<<

It would be a kindness to us all.

PELLY first. You asked me in another post what I was really on about... now, at least I hope you understand why I did not 'headline' it all at the beginning.

This discussion is most important Pelly because you have touched on the core issue at stake here.

ON THE SURFACE.... such things as 'equality'..to quote you: "Equality law encompasses all groups." at least that's what the elite WANT us to believe. (surely you don't...do you?)

I'm so glad you said that but I wonder if u've researched it much?
The whole point of this thread is that such laws are NOT applied equally to all classes or races. I speak not only from observation, but from personal experience.
Let me give you one of the best example of how they are NOT applied equally, and that the 'agenda' of the Fabians is hard at work to specifically DEPRIVE some classes..usually white majorities of equal treatment under the law.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Human_Rights_Commission_free_speech_controversy#Recent_cases

Please (begs) have a close 'compare and contrast' look at those 3 cases and see if you can 'spot the inequality'. In particular, compare the Chapra case with the Imam Al-hayati case.

I will avoid the temptation to go on for 5000 words on this.. so.. ur lucky today :)

RAWWWWWWmustard_is_hot.. now you.

You don't see it do you :) You really don't... *smile*

Let me spell it out.

RAW= "We only need 3 RULES.... RULES ? ? ? errrr.. a 'rule' sounds verrrrry much like "telling others how to live" no?

But Raw..what if I say NO..I don't agree with those rules.. I have 5 different ones.
1/ What's mine is mine
2/ What's yours is also mine now if not sooner.
3/ If you don't like rule 1 and 2.. ur a gonna.

now...do you get/see it ? :)

Pericles.. the silence from you is deafening.. should I assume you are a member ? :)

CJ.. ur out of the sin bin now..come on..take a bite or two...

PAUL L.. where are you.. we need your input.

Ladies & Gentlemen, when are we going to stop doing this online?

When are we going to meet in person at a Rally/protest meeting in public where we can talk to each other face to face?

When can we start organising something along the lines of the US "Tea Party" movement here in OZ?

Does not have to be religious, just for people who are neither "Loony Left" nor "Raving Right".

I propose "Cracker Night", arguably the first intrusion into OZ, of the "Politically Correct Thought Police".

AGIR, you can find me any Saturday morning at the Central SDA church, Quay street, Brisbane, 9:30am. Or 430 Ann street church, Brisbane 10:00am any Sunday.

""" RAW= "We only need 3 RULES.... RULES ? ? ? errrr.. a 'rule' sounds verrrrry much like "telling others how to live" no? """

Oh No, ALGOREisMaKinGmyHeAdSpIn!

We can't have no rules at all - can we? I'm simply saying 3 is enough to cover the 300 million we have now! And that these three prevent the rot we're in, you don't agree?

I suppose if we were to educate people into understanding right from wrong properly then we probably could live with no rules. But then how would we deal with a bad egg? Simply discard it to the dump, kill it? That's what Christ said didn't he from memory? Stone them to death. Remove the rotten fruit before it can contaminate others. Isn't that a rule?

I'm sorry ALGOREisConFuSinG, I'm not very well read on these matters, everything I say is of my own making.

Snag....if I was in Brissy...I'd be there quicker than the speed of light :) I'm im Melbourne mate... but if you know of anyone.. put a contact here if you don't mind and I'll follow it up.

RAW... no drama mate.. I get what ur saying. But I reckon your 3 rules can be summed up in one. "Do for others as you would have them do for you"

The only problem with that 'guidance' is that, like all..it only works for 'you' and it will only work as long as you encounter like minded people. This is why we need law and the force of 'State' -to stop the moron element who don't give a damn about how 'we' view things.

Back to the tasty one...Snag.. I think a Tea Party/EDL type movement is coming to Australia..but we don't yet have it 'bad enough' to bring out the masses.

Though we are approaching it. It doesn't sit well with me that our community has been EXTORTED by militant unions such as the CFMEU and ETU such that their members are all they care about and SCREW the rest of the community. Next time I see an ETU bloke wearing a logo "Touch one, touch all" I'm going to be more than a bit expressive from the point of view of 'The Victorian Community'- touch one of us.. you touch us all!! grrr.. I've punched out one of them :) (He's 6':2" and 120kg) haha.. my cousin.... but in fun of course. He doesn't support the ratbag element.

ALGOREisRICH:>> ON THE SURFACE.... such things as 'equality'..to quote you: "Equality law encompasses all groups." at least that's what the elite WANT us to believe. (surely you don't...do you?)<<

Al you responded to Pelican, but I want to comment about the Fabians fantastic PR manipulation of good souls such as Pelican.

Just as we have the "Money" manipulating the green agenda to make "we" the plebian’s and not the controlling Patricians the ones ultimately responsible for manmade climate change (carbon our enemy, who thought that one up), the Fabians have brought a "personal guilt" trip to the individuals within a society for things that they ultimately do not have control over.

All politically correct agendas work to enforce a stereotype upon the whole society. That stereotype being of an uncaring society where the strong survive and the weak perish. Hence their solution of overt compensation and a program of positive bias to the minority albeit at a cost to the majority.

All societies have a structure of law that gives its citizens legal equality. All societies have humanitarian organizations that help to bring social equality to the unfortunate and disadvantaged, but only first world societies have the Fabians blame agenda which is ultimately meant to control society through social engineering rather than the ballot box.

TBC

The fall of the Soviets is the worst event to befall Western democratic societies. The Marxist/ Leninist/ Trotskyite Western ideologues had lost the big one when it comes to the "socialist experiment" so the agenda was focused on white anting away at our freedoms and the way of life that the society had naturally evolved into by making us feel personally responsible for things which we cannot change, the luck of the draw if you will or just plain life and fate, things we cannot control or fully compensate for.

In real social betterment terms what have PC agendas achieved, a few more disabled car spots, a few extra access ramps and disabled toilets, the curbing of verbiage that offends a minority, and don't forget the protocols such as acknowledging the first owners of this land at every school and civic function while the mortality rate of our indigenous brothers and sisters is still third world, and that goes for the children as well given the same number of Aboriginal children die before the age of five as in African nations.

In real social betterment terms the local lions club or rotary club do more for the equality and betterment of society than the control seeking socialists that have infililtrated our local state and commonwealth public service and our children’s education system. Another example of PC failure is the school curriculum that strives for mediocrity rather than excellence. No such thing as a dumb kid was what one fool teacher told me when defending why the syllabus is set to favour the non talent and striving for success is not encouraged. This is best exampled by Australia’s latest figures relating to subjects that involve higher mathematics, we have the lowest number of students qualifying to study further in these fields than ever before, but our population is higher, how does that work out.

""" the moron element """

These are what I call socialists, capitalists, religious fanatics, unions, NGO's, and all the other groups we have these days.

They're all idiots that have no capacity to think for them selves. Sure some of them are highly educated, some can even quote word for word from a thousand books they have read, but they have no understanding of the real issue when it comes to humanity. Or maybe they do and they're just downright evil. Maybe they are the true terrorists?

Take for instance this video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fXtyxH2GG0&feature of Michio Kaku where he talks about our transition from a type zero clivilisation to a type one civilisation.

Read the comments below and all over the world about this subject and you get the same ignorant/evil quotes over and over again. People instantly start screaming new world order and crawl back into their mashed up minds where they scream about border protection, cultural purity, patriotism. Just read the title of the video clip itself. Even our own discussions about forming Australia into a republic are drowned out by so called intellectuals with closed/evil minds.

If only we could breed wisdom into people, because we don't seem to be able to educate it into them. Maybe we do need a another Hitler to get rid of the morons? (Just kidding :) )

So yeah Al, The Fabian strategy is being played out not only by the Fabians, but humanity itself. In the end all humans will live under a type of socialist system it's nothing to fear, it is mankind's destiny. It's good to see though that there are people like yourself that are aware of those that would embrace it if only to sabotage it for their own ends, just like the ones trying to bring in our republic. We must be eternally vigilant.

Sonofgloin

Are you suggesting capitalists are not manipulated or brainwashed.

Al suggests that the Fabian agenda is:

1/ What's mine is mine
2/ What's yours is also mine now if not sooner.
3/ If you don't like rule 1 and 2.. ur a gonna.

This is a simplistic tale which dresses capitalism up to be the fairy godmother. This tale fails to recognise any of the failings of extreme capitalism and paints any form of regulation as the enemy of liberty - when in fact much regulation provides liberty to those who do not have membership of the elite.

Sometimes the 'what's mine is mine' includes the right to exploit workers, cause untold damage to pristine environments (which do not belong to just one person or corporation) and to deny health care to the poor.

All these debates get strangled by strong Left/Right perspectives and Greed being defined by that perspective. Either the workers are greedy or the corporations are greedy. The balance of power certainly has not shifted to the workers - globalisation has fixed that, with companies move offshore to amass even more wealth by using cheap labour.

The problem is greed and greed is not confined to one any one group.

It seems there is never much middle ground and the value of a mixed economy is now seen as a Fabian/Green conspiracy - that is the greatest manipulation of all to deflect the spotlight from the real power-holders. History suggests we won't get it until it is too late.

I would rather live here in Australia where social democracy ensures universal health care than one like the US where not only insurance companies have carte blanche to rip off the poor (no regulation), but where health is only afforded by the middle class and wealthy.

And then to claim the Fabian Socialists or the Greens or anyone who is not Right of centre, are the greedy ones - that is a bit rich.

Pelican I look back on the positive social legislation that the Labor party has instituted and I thank god they were there. But I look at this lot and see a Fabianesque agenda of "being seen" to be productive, but it is window dressing. There is no great social reform on their agenda. It could have been "water our country" or even” Singapore style infrastructure for all" but we got bats, sheds, and faster internet is coming and that took our entire surplus and left us a huge debt.

Regarding the positive things that the socialist movement has brought to our society, you cannot use that as a marker to integrity because that is in the past and when we look at the Labor State and Commonwealth governments it is apparent they are failures without integrity, perhaps a generational thing in the Labor party as I have suggested to Belly in the past. Labor heartland has been decimated over the past 30 years because of the globalization you mentioned, there are no workers left.

But you did not mention that the first agreements that painted the picture of dropping tariffs and losing all manufacturing and value adding that supported our economy had unanimous support from both sides of politics, and they both voted the protocols of the Lima Declaration into legislation. The Labor pollies of the time did not think of their union brothers on that occasion and our first world living standards have followed production to the third world, leaving us to dig up and grow stuff, except now they are taking the water from the farmers so we may be a net importer of food within 5 years. How can you defend the incompetent on party lines. Excrement stinks because it is excrement, things are not going well and it will get worse under the Gizzard government.

You can't just say "dresses capitalism up to be the fairy godmother." and then jump to the "failings of extreme capitalism"

It's either one or the other, one is good one is bad. And it's regulation from our leaders that creates the latter. The elite would never have gotten to where they are if we had a true free market because we would all be able to compete on a level playing field.

Workers would have it better because they would have more employers to choose from, they certainly wouldn't work for a company that didn't pay enough to sustain them or they would have more opportunity to be self employed. Right now we have a government regulated minimum wage that's sending people broke by the millions everyday!

The problem now is how to fix it? More rules are just making it worse.

Why can't I open a bank in my own home? Why can't I raffle my house? Why can't I get in my car and offer a taxi service, why can't I start my own power station and offer cheaper power to my neighbours. All without having to pay homage to our tyrannical masters?

If I did any of those things and I didn't provide a good service, my customers wouldn't use me. Should I then be paid a stimulus by robbing money from my customers at the point of a gun because I was to big to fail?

Try to see through the noise and corruption Pelican. It would be a very different world, a much better one I believe.

In an attempt to protect people from themselves, we're taking away the very fabric of life they need and desire. And we're breeding a race of codependents unable to look after themselves and putting more pressure on the ones who can. It's going downhill fast as can be witnessed everyday and everyday they bring in a new regulation to try and keep it going, only compounding the problem further.

Dear SOG...those 2 posts were of the most profound kind I've seen for a long time. ViVa SOG!

How I wish we could have lot's of discussions of this calibre.

PELLY... you've missed the boat there mate. You are seeing this in tersm of 'right/left' and claiming they are both equally evil.

But what you miss is this. Unrestrained Capitalism can only work for a limited time in a democracy. Voters will kick the bastard out when enough people are able to see the level of corruption and greed.

In that is the biggest danger. Howso you ask ? easy..the 'Fabians' and socialist ALways cast/portray themselves as the 'good guy' who sticks up for the downtrodden...so it is almost a natural law that they will eventually take power if they can pull the wool over enough ignorant sheeps eyes.
Afterall...they actually dress like sheep.. but the capitalist? His version is to speak about 'jobs jobs' and claim a vibrant economy will cause many who have capital to invest and create those jobs.

Somehow.....they end up outsourcing jobs to China to cut costs and reward shareholders and few local jobs are in fact created.. but they still end up with the newestmodel corporate jet!

So..there are capitalist 'wolves' and Fabian wolves. Don't you think the real task at hand is for us to EDUCATE OURSELVES about this and rather than squabble about right and left, to actually get out there and DOOOOOO something about it?

That was the whole purpose of this thread.

Raw..ur woffling mate :)

But Raw...the opening line of your last post makes a lot of sense.

Pelly.. yes.. extreme or unrestrained capitalism or socialism is awful.
But the point I've been trying to make over the past few months..including even my nick...is that capitalists and socialists are getting into bed together and having wild political/economic sex at OUR expense.

Look at Soros, Strong, Gore just to name 3.. capitalists extrordinaire!

But as Strong says, he has socialist beliefs but works on a capitalist method...(for HIMSELF that is)

THIS is where the danger is. Truly and Roooolly....truly.

a) Rich Capitalist/Socialist wolves will promote socialist ideas and foundations which ultimately give THEM more power and influence.

b) Trade Unions will become more focused on those industries which cannot be outsourced (such as infrastructure related occupations)

c) The Unions will gradually take the place of 'The State' in the communist sense where 'party members' do verrrrry well and non party members are hung out to dry.

EXAMPLES. Electrical Trade Union (Dean Mighell) CFMEU Martin Kingham.http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/05/02/1051382093689.html

I saw an advert just this morning for an 'electrician' for an infrastructure job offering $120k-140k salary! ! !

How is it that an engineer can spend 4 yrs training and accumulate a huge HECS debt which will take years to payoff.. can get perhaps 60% of that.... but a sparky does
http://www.tafe.vic.gov.au/tafecourses/search/Courses/Detail.asp?ID=40703

1 yr... for a fairly HIGH level of training (for sparkies)

This is OUTrageous! It will create all manner of discontent in society, not to mention the attempt by OTHERS who have more training to attain similar salaries or better.
End Result ? a) *country broke* b) *Society brokEN*

""" Raw..ur woffling mate :) """

You're right, I'm good at that :)

""" rather than squabble about right and left, to actually get out there and DOOOOOO something about it? """

I did that for 20 years until the wolves made it too hard :(
Now I have no incentive anymore, and there are no rewards!
Money was never the reward I was looking for, just so you know!

Maybe we need to reopen wolf hunting season!

Indeed Raw.. we might.

Number one target for me is the ETU... then the VHREOC..the Greens...

and spineless politicians.

Imagine this.. a network of people who could display relevant signs at major intersections during peak hour..and at train stations.. same message at all of them on one day.. then a more developed message the next... people might tweak.. who knows.

Or.. the country could just go down the crapper until they suddenly wake up to the fact that it's too late.

This is what I heard Yesterday.

I thought he was a bit out there...But...Here its is.

"Yeah! Laugh it off sh@t for brains. The workers will fight for what is the right thing to do.

The disparity between the rich and the poor is now beyond a joke and its time for you all to pay for what is, and what we give you!

Remember this!

With out the worker, you fat, rich, greedy, soul-less, non-caring, MF! You have nothing!

We give our life's, and you put your children through the top schools!

We work 68 years, and when retirement comes around, where too broken to enjoy it!

I like pauls comment! The workers should no their place. Fu#k you!

You rich are so thick.

How long do you think you can get away with this?

ShATs going to hit the fan sooner or latter.

Basically! Your system is going to shoot you all in the foot. lol

You will see.

Its only a matter of time before the pressure of it all that capitalists knew with the chances they did take, and all we need is you to see that we are human too.

Fat chance of that."

And this is what a bloke told me just yesterday.

Glad Iam not you. lol.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sa.org.au%2Fcomponent%2Fcontent%2Farticle%2F121-edition-53%2F1001-unions-the-most-effective-form-of-protest&rct=j&q=labour%20union%20protests%20in%20australia&ei=L_G2TIyxMIuIvgPV4J2ACQ&usg=AFQjCNHu2vtXaPTOMFiXbAfGpZL2PmCw4Q&cad=rja

Good luck.

TTM

Boazy not because it is your thread.
Not because it asks us to look so far back for todays answers.
The thread never interested me.
Wandering about, trying to find some thing of interest, new threads seem stalled , old ones weary and worn out.
I found Raw Mustards effort.
While some very good posters are in exile or the sin bin, we see posts like that.
RM that was needless, surely you can use words better than that, if you must get a point across.
During a recent eruption, here in OLO it was said people dislike the way we talk here in the wild lands of OLO.
I rather think we are more real than the elitist pages, but your post, maybe your selection of a title,reminds me of why I rarely read your efforts.

HI Belly... welcome :) you might be able to provide some helpful thoughts given your union background...

TTM thanks for those links, I looked at the one about TriStar.

Belly mate.. the issue at stake at TriStar seems to me to be a reasonable one. "Protection of entitlements" No argument from me there.

Though I wonder a bit about how those 'entitlements' came about ?
-were they excessive?
-Were they acheived through industrial thuggery/blackmail?
-Did the company just agree to them because of thuggery to keep the peace and keep production rolling?

Many unanswered questions there.

According to the link from TTM the accounts manager who was dying would have received $200,000 in "entitlements" if he was made redundant. He had served the company for 43 yrs.

The max redundancy pay that I can find is 12 weeks. That does NOT equate to $200k. Perhaps it was super ? nope..cannot be because that is compulsory and has nothing to do with whether a bloke is redundant or sacked.

DANGER SIGNS.
TTM.. here is where the Union movement becomes frighteningly dangerous...in the Socialist alternative article.

QUOTE.
Fourthly, working class action can take up any issue. The Tristar strike, like most strikes, was around bread and butter issues of workers' wages, conditions, and entitlements - economic demands. But there is no reason why this same strike weapon couldn't, if workers chose, be used to support political demands.
UNQUOTE.

They are seeking to be the 'real' alternative government in that paragraph.

but this requires a new thread :) TBC in new thread.

You live and learn on OLO.

The Tristar case. Fascinating. An object lesson for anyone thinking of sinking their hard-earned cash into a new business: don't sign stupid agreements with the unions - they'll always come back to bite you.

"... in the event of Tristar winding up its operations in Australia, they would be entitled to four weeks pay for every year they had worked for the company."

I suppose, when you sign up to such a ridiculous clause, you think "well, if the company goes down the gurgler, I won't have a job either", and just scribble out your John Hancock.

And there is one more apparent safeguard that you may have taken into consideration: the expiry date on the agreement. As it turned out, the fact that the agreement lapsed in 2006 apparently was no impediment to the workers claiming their "entitlements" in 2007.

So, be warned, fellow-entrepreneurs. It may seem as though you are agreeing to a clause that will never be needed, but you can guarantee that someone, sometime in the future, will cry "dirty capitalist running dog" whether you deserve it or not.

It also brings into question "what are businesses for?"

Are they to provide goods and services to a market? Or are they purely established for the convenience and enrichment of those lovely people who condescend to work there?

Tristar made a lot of mistakes.

"...in December 1999. The company reportedly turned over $70 million a year. At that time there were more than 600 employees"

http://www.markparnell.org.au/speech.php?speech=184

"But by the middle of last year [2006] it had lost all of these contracts, and its work force of about 300 is now down to just 35."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/16/1979994.htm

The major mistake was, of course, losing all those contracts. When that happens, everybody loses out - employees, business owners, suppliers, local businesses.

Another mistake had been made earlier, of course, when that ridiculous clause was agreed to.

But it is interesting that the "beat-up-the-bosses" campaign concentrated only on the last 35 employees.

The previously laid-off 565 were, one assumed, not quite so newsworthy.

Hi AL.

Many unanswered questions there.

"According to the link from TTM the accounts manager who was dying would have received $200,000 in "entitlements" if he was made redundant. He had served the company for 43 yrs.

The max redundancy pay that I can find is 12 weeks. That does NOT equate to $200k. Perhaps it was super ? nope..cannot be because that is compulsory and has nothing to do with whether a bloke is redundant or sacked."

The only way workers will win, if all just walk off the job. But this is the main problem. People wont stand united and because of this, nothing will change.

Sorry AL! The working Australians just don't have the guts like we did back in the eighties when walkouts from BHP hurt them where its most painful.......Thats right! Their own pockets and profits.

I called for Equal Opportunity And The Fair Go For All Australians, but like I said in the past posts, If you think your being ripped off!

The Answer is smiple!

Just get together and Drop tools.

But The people wont do it. So live with it!

Everyone knows whats going on,

But They DO NOTHING>

Until the workers see what being done to them,

There Is No point in just dribbling pointless empty words.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CCAQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sa.org.au%2Fcomponent%2Fcontent%2Farticle%2F121-edition-53%2F1001-unions-the-most-effective-form-of-protest&rct=j&q=labour%20union%20protests%20in%20australia&ei=L_G2TIyxMIuIvgPV4J2ACQ&usg=AFQjCNHu2vtXaPTOMFiXbAfGpZL2PmCw4Q&cad=rja

I want people see whats happening here and read all that is relevant.

Or all workers have active done........Is sweet Fu@K all and you know it!

United we stand or put up and shut up.

Thats it too the bone.

Good luck.

TTM

PS. This will be my last post on olo.

Cause I'd rather go fishing than waste my time.

Thanks to all for interesting times and discussions.

Like many' I've lost interest in the system.

All the best.

See ya.

RawM
What I am essentially arguing is where you have any regime where there is little accountability and where there is little participation from citizens you provide a potential framework for disenfranchisement or at worst corruption. Grass roots participation can be more than just a vote every three years. Do MPs speak for their electorates or for their party perspectives and personal ideologies especially on votes of conscience. Is that what we wanted from representative democracy?

This is true of regardless of Left/Right perspective. Your arugment about choice for workers to avoid dodgy employers only works in a period of high employment what about when people still have to pay their mortgages and put food on the table when jobs are thin on the ground. Life is not a plate of cupcakes that always relies on choices - sometimes there are none or they are heavily skewed by monopolies or collusion or changing economic circumstances.

Al
The socialists aren't in bed with the capitalists - neo-liberals are not socialists. The ALP is not socialist.

Pericles
Business provides goods and services. Talking about 'people condescending to work reflects your own attitude to employees. Many workers enjoy their jobs and hold a strong work ethic - they are not just rabble to be dealt with or endured. When a person is employed the labour should be valued and full-time work should attract a living wage. Without that premise the cost of those goods and services would be out of reach.

The real enemy in all this is wage creep but not at the bottom end. The problem is with the increase in median wages and higher wages which puts upward pressure on prices making it much harder for those on the minimum wage to get by. It is wage disparity that is the problem and discrepancies in wages between highly unionised labour and not. There are some silly expectations on business as well (leave loading and excesive parenting leave entitlements).

Well well Pericles.. I'm pinching myself here.. to see if I'm in a dream.
Did you actually bring a constructive informative post without an ad hominem against me ? ..oh happy day.

Seriously.. you did prove your value with that information. The idea of 4 weeks redundancy for each year is outrageous in the extreme.

I would hazard a guess that it was 'negotiated' in the 'steering and suspension' equivalent of a CONCRETE POUR.....and that the union used mafia style "bad things might happen to you if you don't sign" tactics.

The CFMEU did this but "Work Choices" or the ABCC part of it led to unprecedented peace on worksites and now they are all whining about the possibility of being sued and punished for such thuggery.

Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.

Pelly Gillard (and many other laborites)is a member of the Fabian socialists. Do I need to say more ?

TTM you will be missed.. awwwww :(

Boazy you spell thugs and mugs in a different way than I do.
You and parts of my movement, have to understand there indeed is a difference between unions.
Every second of my life I have despised those who left my team or hurt it for self benefit.
Often, too often of late as I age, men who have little understanding that a trade union workers can not have too much passion but some have too little is questioned.
I have no comrades, moved on from that in my teens, my members are my mates, swallow that Fabian thing, if it ever existed it was not for such as me.
One day I Will share my thoughts on those who defame the union movement, by simple being part of it.
But you are intent on only your view of IR have little understanding some have skills bosses pay big time for in a competitive market bosses buy workers like they buy product to build with, on the open market with open wallets your idea of stand over is false, well thugs and mugs and fellow travelers excepted.
Any union that forces people to join is dead so it should be.

You misconstrue, pelican.

>>Talking about 'people condescending to work reflects your own attitude to employees.<<

I was referring to the attitude of people who believe that the world somehow owes them a living, and that every employer is simply another vehicle for their own ambitions and desires.

The proper approach is one of synergy.

The employer cannot be effective without understanding that willing and capable employees need to be looked after. And the employees must understand that the business (which is the product of the owner's investment of time, money and guts) is not simply a money-teat to suck on.

And please, Boaz, this is highly unlikely.

>>I would hazard a guess that it was 'negotiated' in the 'steering and suspension' equivalent of a CONCRETE POUR.....and that the union used mafia style "bad things might happen to you if you don't sign" tactics.<<

As I took great pains to point out, a far more likely genesis would be a poor company negotiator, who looked at the clause in question, made a decision that a) it would never happen and b) if it did, he'd be long gone, and traded it for a union concession elsewhere.

Stand-over tactics went out of fashion along with mullets, sideburns and long lunches.

>>Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.<<

Naaah. Too silly for words.

According to the latest (2008) report from the ABS, "the number of working days lost [due to strike action] declined, from 1.3 million in 1987 to 50,000 in 2007."

That's a 96% decline over a twenty year period.

I doubt very much that this number has risen significantly in the last couple of years. So I cannot see the slightest justification to initiate some form of class war against the "proletariat" in the year 2010.

Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.

Yes Al your perception is outstanding, and yes I lied. lol
Isn't it fun when you go to the circus and see the magician with his illusions with the games of smoke and mirrors. Your warnings are heeded and well within your great balances of profiles of those that may not seem to understand the validity of there reactions. But yes im just a poor fool that can see the reflections of the suit sayers within and around the crystal ball of what ever is the true reality.

And to think it would be that easy!

I have always loved that particular passage from the bible (no punt intended) of David and Goliath and that particular stand point from the most highest levels of acknowledgment, I think Goliath has not quite met his match and I think one of such mighty self illusion...... The gods from all realms stand in silence and now wonder what has transpired.

Proletariat'?

Al! I'm starting to think that you are god in disguise and that my friend in the sky is seeing all with excellent profiling skills, I dont think god himself would recognize you.

Which ever way mankind walks, the model of the ten rats in the box is and does apply to this situation at hand which unknowns to the slaves, better ignorance than truth. I think its better this way.

Sedition!

Dont be silly. I can give many examples to its meanings but none apply here.

See you round.

smile.

TTM

Pericles.. sometimes you demonstrate some keen insights.

"I was referring to the attitude of people who believe that the world somehow owes them a living, and that every employer is simply another vehicle for their own ambitions and desires."

We are on the same page with that... I assure you.

Your deconstruction of the Tristar situation.. is at least possible.

The important issue here is 'context'.

If one was to attend a meeting of the Health Employees Union and see the chaos prevailing you might lean my way a bit. If you closely observed the behavior of the CFMEU and ETU you should (if reason exists in your brain) be 100% with me.


BELLY.. Please don't think I am against 'unions' in all an any circumstances. What I'm addressing is that element which you yourself are criticizing. I'm not 'agin' you.

UNION POWER.. (militant, and self serving) i.e.. when power has corrupted.

a) No ticket...no job
b) Hirings are through Union hiring agencies/operations.
c) Picket lines.. physical attacks on those who don't share the issue.
d) Special deals with cowardly governments to protect outrageous 'entitlements/pensions'

http://www.openmarket.org/2010/04/13/stern-jumps-off-sinking-pension-ship/

@ Peli
""" Do MPs speak for their electorates or for their party perspectives and personal ideologies especially on votes of conscience. Is that what we wanted from representative democracy? """

Is that what we get?

Representative democracy is a myth and after 50 years on this rock I have come to believe that everything the founding fathers of that great American experiment said is true. I can't remember which one it was, Washington I think said. Democracy ultimately leads to tyranny and that's where we are now. And is why Al brought up this thread, to try and explain how progressive socialists(using the Fabian strategy) use democracy against us and are leading us to tyranny.

""" This is true of regardless of Left/Right perspective. Your arugment about choice for workers to avoid dodgy employers only works in a period of high employment what about when people still have to pay their mortgages and put food on the table when jobs are thin on the ground. """

How does regulating the free market keep them in jobs in the first place? Is it working?

""" or they are heavily skewed by monopolies or collusion """

And these are the fault of the free market, or free market capitalism?

I would suggest they are exactly the fault of government regulation and laws. They are born from "extreme capitalism"(corporatism, which is just another name for fascism, which is only 1/2 a degree from Fabianism which is only 1/2 a degree from socialism) which is allowed to grow and oppress our communities at an astoundingly ever increasing speed and which is actually diminishing jobs, freedom and liberty for all those people you mentioned above.

So how does government solve these problems? By ever, increasingly growing and creating more public employment, employment that self generates ever increasing government, it's almost become a perpetual motion. It's the road to tyranny and a great loss for us all.

""" I found Raw Mustards effort.
While some very good posters are in exile or the sin bin, we see posts like that.
RM that was needless, surely you can use words better than that, if you must get a point across.
During a recent eruption, here in OLO it was said people dislike the way we talk here in the wild lands of OLO.
I rather think we are more real than the elitist pages, but your post, maybe your selection of a title,reminds me of why I rarely read your efforts. """

As I think of myself as a libertarian, I'm considerate of your free will to ignore my virtual bytes whenever you chose.

But in saying that. I would ask that you at least show me the consideration of explaining the subject matter when you present me with a question.

ok no worries RM you are not a shy person and put your self out there with questions like have I made an idiot of myself yet,, yes.
A post above deleted for swearing, others close to the wind, why the extra effort to, well your words cover it.
Not alone but yes posters who rarely swear are not here for a time,you at least to me seem to find pleasure in dropping the odd unneeded word.

Ah ha, you mean the ALGOReIsAdungBeAtle. Oh I see.

Actually I found it quite amusing it was removed; yet what I would consider more abusive words are allowed to remain, but there you go :)

I hope you also noticed those words were not directed at the person using the handle as a means of political statement? Which is exactly what I have done by renaming his handle with everyone of my replies to him. I'm sorry if it offended you!

Perhaps we should demand the administrators remove all references of those words disguised by hieroglyphs, it's only fair after all, what do you think?

Indeed Raw... I don't really take offense at that kind of thing.
Graham need not delete such things for my sake.. but knowing him..it would be more for his sake :) (ie..OLO)

GILLARD in FABIAN MODE.

We have recently been presented with a classic example of the Fabian Strategy by Julia Gillard.

1/ She KNEW Tony Abbot was planning to visit the troops at a time of his diary entry.

2/ Knowing this, she still put it out that 'he didn't care' about our troops for machievellian,fabian,base, scurrelous political advantage.

3/ She is an excellent 'Fabian' :)

4/ She is BAD for Australia,Democracy and freedom.

Pericles - fair enough, synergy should be the goal. There is a tendency on the part of employer groups to use the old chestnut of the "world owes me a living" line whenever there is talk of change for low income workers.

RawM
"They are born from "extreme capitalism"(corporatism, which is just another name for fascism, ...is only 1/2 a degree from Fabianism which is only 1/2 a degree from socialism) which is allowed to grow and oppress our communities at an astoundingly ever increasing speed and which is actually diminishing jobs, freedom and liberty for all those people you mentioned above."

"...By ever, increasingly growing and creating more public employment, employment that self generates ever increasing government, it's almost become a perpetual motion. It's the road to tyranny...."

Yes, there are too many public servants for the actual services delivered and too many overpaid bureacrats with bonuses they don't deserve as a person who is paid to do their job to the best of their ability.

Not all regulation has the effect of strangulation or oppression but I agree that extremes of the Left/Right perspective have the same outcomes.

What if the power is put back in the hands of the citizens. What if the regulatory framework is decided by the electorate. We decide on what red tape and regulation is positive and what works to the greater benefit and what is obstructive and oppressive.

Why do governments fund sport and arts which are ostensibly hobbies and interests while hospitals and training schemes (until of late) went belly up and essential infrastructure became indadequate.

There are many ways we could work out what it is we want from governments. The free market is not without its problems. Some of the fundamental 'natural safeguards' bestowed on this system are highly overrated and history shows the free market does not work for the great majority - it can and does foster monopolies, corruption and the like. The mafia loves a free market. Just another way of screwing the citizen - so what is the happy medium?

Pelly..this is probably a good place to underline my disgust with the 'big' end of town and it's corporate greed.

The salaries and incentives and bonuses to failed CEO' is a disgrace of the most extreme kind and it makes my blood boil just as much as the same 'salaries and fringe benefits' to UNION leaders.

There was this cockney union boss in the uk interviewed on hard talk and he was mouthing off about 'fat cat bankers'.. and comparing them to the poor worker who get's just $12000 pounds a year..the Interviewer leapt on this with "and how much do YOU get?..isn't it $140,000 pounds"

I think we need strong LAWS to prevent the kind of thuggery which has enabled unfair bargaining and outlandish wage claims based on 'mid concrete pour' work stoppages.
Making Unions accountable for the losses to an employer for such things is a very effective way of stopping it.

But let's ALSO have laws which punish failed CEO's and contracts which seek to avoid such punishment.

ALSO.. for luck.. let's try to get share 'options' parcels for workers which increase (or decrease) in value as the company prospers or fails.

Pelly.. you said:

//it can and does foster monopolies, corruption and the like. The mafia loves a free market. Just another way of screwing the citizen - so what is the happy medium?//

Reallllly wanna know ? :)

Here it is.
http://www.welshrevival.com/lang-en/1904history.htm

read in particular the paragraph beside Annie Davies

""" Why do governments fund sport and arts which are ostensibly hobbies and interests while hospitals and training schemes (until of late) went belly up and essential infrastructure became inadequate. """

Indeed Peli why do they? Could it be favours for their mates in crime?

""" history shows the free market does not work for the great majority """

History also shows we never really had a free market. So to say it doesn't work is a bit fallacious.

""" it can and does foster monopolies, corruption and the like. """

I'm sorry Peli, I can't agree with this. These are a direct result of market manipulation by government and its partner in crime, corporatism(Extreme Capitalism).

""" The mafia loves a free market. Just another way of screwing the citizen """

Wrong again Peli. The Mafia has never embraced a free market. How is extorting protection money (tax if you will) a free market principle?
The mafia are more akin to the government trying to control every aspect of the market for their own ends!

""" so what is the happy medium? """

It's not an easy one to answer Peli!

But a really good start would be to force banks and government to stop counterfeiting money and to abide by the rule of law as we have to!

Maybe you'd be interested in this audio lecture Peli? Some interesting insights on how we may answer the question :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEPfmX7_eUY

RawM
"History also shows we never really had a free market. So to say it doesn't work is a bit fallacious."

Well according to Hans-Hermann Hoppe (which I have just listened to for over an hour) :) - prior to WWI there existed such a market - a libertarian and free market utopia. I don't think the word limit will allow a worthwhile response but here goes.

Hoppe talks about the growth of socialism in its various forms after WWI and again after WWII, and a corresponding decline in classical liberalism due to the popularity of the concepts of egalitarianism and social welfare.

Hoppe's idea of a better society will not achieve what he hopes and resembles a form of anarchy and lack of any welfare structure is a recipe for despair.

Hoppe is proposing that the only function of government is to protect the rights of ownership of property and individual freedoms, rights of association etc but to have no other input in society even as a representative of the people or via a more direct democracy.

If the situation prior to WWI worked so efficiently ie. the free market, Churches and charities, and small government providing all we needed, why did the idea of egalitarianism and social welfare grow?

Systems that work well don't usually result in revolution or great change. Hoppe himself talks about a counter revolution loosely as a result of a genuinely perceived crisis situation and a clash between expectations and reality. His argument is can also be used to explain and understand the rise of egalitarianism and socialism and equal access to opportunity.

Hoppe paints a utopian and blissful picture of libertarianism and the evils of taxation and the benefits of a free markets but fails to address what mechanisms within that system ensure the opportunities for exploitation and poverty created by an imbalance of ownership ie. power. Competition I hear you say is the answer. What if the free market does not provide competition enough to provide choice for wage earners and only creates a feudal type system with great inequities?

Cont/...

I agree we need smaller government - it continually grows and expands and as Hoppe argues the government has grown from a small base representing 2% employment, business and agriculture providing 98%. Quite a difference to what we see today. One thing I agree was that unlike the past we cannot go around almost oblivious of the presence of government. Like any organisation, too much power can corrupt.

Eastern European socialism in Hoppe's own words has collapsed it was a failure - the egalitarianism and social democrats in Australia are not aspiring to model on Eastern European socialism nor do we live in a Socialist state as some would have us believe. The movement towards neo-liberalism suggests we are not in any danger of 'creeping socialism'.

It is true that there is a lack of trust in our politicians and our governments but enough for a libertarian revolution? That is not where the angst lies? It is in the lack of accountability and the lack of representation. A welfare state provides a universal insurance and I believe most Australians support some form of social assistance and would not want to live with the repercussions of poverty. How do the poor access medical assistance under privatised health? Some services paid for via taxes benefit everyone in the long term than seeing a bevy of homeless on the streets.

So many questions not enough space. :)

Al
I respect your religious freedoms but directing me to a Christian site is a waste of your time. Although I find the Bible quite barbaric in tone and highly inflammatory (as opposed to flammable :)), the values espoused by most Christians are worthy and sound and mirror much of my own but I don't believe any one religious doctrine will eradicate greed. It didn't in the past and it probably won't in the future. If it did we would bottle it. :)

Hi Pelly

the last paragraph of your second last post was very useful.

Main points:

1/ Free market should guarantee competition and fair prices.
2/ It doesn't
3/ It doesn't because there are usually insufficient checks and balances against formal or informal monopolies which keep prices high.

So the solution is to have those checks and balances. This is where "politics" get's in the way. We end up with a 2 party system representing the 'big end' and the 'working end' of town.

Sadly, we find the problem in both ends. Unions seek monopoly power on bargaining "Picket lines, intimidation to join the union, intimidation if you stand for election as Union leader if you are not part of the 'brutal' group"
The employer side has the same analoguous features.

RELIGIOUS SITES. Pelly.. I was showing you a very real, historical example of how things change when PEOPLE are changed. The Welsh revival showed how 'utopian' things can be when people are walking with Christ.

The point being... it's not the system that's the problem WE are the problem :)

Pelican:"The mafia loves a free market"

Actually, organised crime thrives best in a very regulated market, where there is a cost advantage to be gained by failing to comply with the regulation. In a free market organised crime is reduced to simple thuggery, which can never be as profitable. Imagine how much that half-tonne of cocaine that was seized recently cost to buy and how much, thanks to highly restrictive laws, it was going to sell for. The only way Big Pharma can approach similar levels of profit is with strong regulation which creates effective monopolies, as well as massive Government subsidies in the PBS.

Raw Mustard:"These are a direct result of market manipulation by government and its partner in crime, corporatism"

Got it in one. Organised crime can't compete on a level playing field with large corporations in a truly open market.

Al, interesting thread. I must say I hadn't read much on Fabianism, to my shame. In other threads I've called the same thing a "perverted Marxism", which I think is entirely apt. The plight of an "underclass" is used to justify more power to a specific elite which claims to speak for that underclass (while making sure the underclass continues). Feminism is a classic example.

Organised crime can compete in an open market - crime by nature does not follow the rule of law. Stand over tactics and demands for protection money; and extortion, do not rely on any particular market mechanism, it only means the criminals adapt to the conditions.

We may not live within a pure FM - it is distorted - but we certainly don't have what could be described as pure protectionism. Anyone is free now to trade with any socialist oppressive regime they like regardless of the treatment of workers, wages, use of shadow factories and lack of biosecurity/food safety considerations.

That is the problem. A truly free market where the world is open, not only for trade but for the free movement of peoples (without passports and the like) and without the idea of citizenship (we become global citizens) only works when the currency is of the same value and workers are paid similar wages. Perhaps a truly open market would achieve that smoothing of conditions but there is still a risk, without any regulation, of despotic regimes in the form of corporate monopolies.

Advocates for a mixed economy (even one skewed slightly one way or the other) are not Fabian Socialists was the main point I was trying to make.

Al,
I understand the power of goodwill within a group of people but only when there is accountability on earth for any misuse of authority or power bestowed to the leadership. You find this not only within religious good works but in community gardens, landcare groups, charities right down to playgroups and other small communities of like minded people.