Well well Pericles.. I'm pinching myself here.. to see if I'm in a dream.
Did you actually bring a constructive informative post without an ad hominem against me ? ..oh happy day.

Seriously.. you did prove your value with that information. The idea of 4 weeks redundancy for each year is outrageous in the extreme.

I would hazard a guess that it was 'negotiated' in the 'steering and suspension' equivalent of a CONCRETE POUR.....and that the union used mafia style "bad things might happen to you if you don't sign" tactics.

The CFMEU did this but "Work Choices" or the ABCC part of it led to unprecedented peace on worksites and now they are all whining about the possibility of being sued and punished for such thuggery.

Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.

Pelly Gillard (and many other laborites)is a member of the Fabian socialists. Do I need to say more ?

TTM you will be missed.. awwwww :(

Boazy you spell thugs and mugs in a different way than I do.
You and parts of my movement, have to understand there indeed is a difference between unions.
Every second of my life I have despised those who left my team or hurt it for self benefit.
Often, too often of late as I age, men who have little understanding that a trade union workers can not have too much passion but some have too little is questioned.
I have no comrades, moved on from that in my teens, my members are my mates, swallow that Fabian thing, if it ever existed it was not for such as me.
One day I Will share my thoughts on those who defame the union movement, by simple being part of it.
But you are intent on only your view of IR have little understanding some have skills bosses pay big time for in a competitive market bosses buy workers like they buy product to build with, on the open market with open wallets your idea of stand over is false, well thugs and mugs and fellow travelers excepted.
Any union that forces people to join is dead so it should be.

You misconstrue, pelican.

>>Talking about 'people condescending to work reflects your own attitude to employees.<<

I was referring to the attitude of people who believe that the world somehow owes them a living, and that every employer is simply another vehicle for their own ambitions and desires.

The proper approach is one of synergy.

The employer cannot be effective without understanding that willing and capable employees need to be looked after. And the employees must understand that the business (which is the product of the owner's investment of time, money and guts) is not simply a money-teat to suck on.

And please, Boaz, this is highly unlikely.

>>I would hazard a guess that it was 'negotiated' in the 'steering and suspension' equivalent of a CONCRETE POUR.....and that the union used mafia style "bad things might happen to you if you don't sign" tactics.<<

As I took great pains to point out, a far more likely genesis would be a poor company negotiator, who looked at the clause in question, made a decision that a) it would never happen and b) if it did, he'd be long gone, and traded it for a union concession elsewhere.

Stand-over tactics went out of fashion along with mullets, sideburns and long lunches.

>>Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.<<

Naaah. Too silly for words.

According to the latest (2008) report from the ABS, "the number of working days lost [due to strike action] declined, from 1.3 million in 1987 to 50,000 in 2007."

That's a 96% decline over a twenty year period.

I doubt very much that this number has risen significantly in the last couple of years. So I cannot see the slightest justification to initiate some form of class war against the "proletariat" in the year 2010.

Please join the new thread 'Unions, a cover for a dictatorship of the Proletariat'? to take this further.

Yes Al your perception is outstanding, and yes I lied. lol
Isn't it fun when you go to the circus and see the magician with his illusions with the games of smoke and mirrors. Your warnings are heeded and well within your great balances of profiles of those that may not seem to understand the validity of there reactions. But yes im just a poor fool that can see the reflections of the suit sayers within and around the crystal ball of what ever is the true reality.

And to think it would be that easy!

I have always loved that particular passage from the bible (no punt intended) of David and Goliath and that particular stand point from the most highest levels of acknowledgment, I think Goliath has not quite met his match and I think one of such mighty self illusion...... The gods from all realms stand in silence and now wonder what has transpired.

Proletariat'?

Al! I'm starting to think that you are god in disguise and that my friend in the sky is seeing all with excellent profiling skills, I dont think god himself would recognize you.

Which ever way mankind walks, the model of the ten rats in the box is and does apply to this situation at hand which unknowns to the slaves, better ignorance than truth. I think its better this way.

Sedition!

Dont be silly. I can give many examples to its meanings but none apply here.

See you round.

smile.

TTM

Pericles.. sometimes you demonstrate some keen insights.

"I was referring to the attitude of people who believe that the world somehow owes them a living, and that every employer is simply another vehicle for their own ambitions and desires."

We are on the same page with that... I assure you.

Your deconstruction of the Tristar situation.. is at least possible.

The important issue here is 'context'.

If one was to attend a meeting of the Health Employees Union and see the chaos prevailing you might lean my way a bit. If you closely observed the behavior of the CFMEU and ETU you should (if reason exists in your brain) be 100% with me.


BELLY.. Please don't think I am against 'unions' in all an any circumstances. What I'm addressing is that element which you yourself are criticizing. I'm not 'agin' you.

UNION POWER.. (militant, and self serving) i.e.. when power has corrupted.

a) No ticket...no job
b) Hirings are through Union hiring agencies/operations.
c) Picket lines.. physical attacks on those who don't share the issue.
d) Special deals with cowardly governments to protect outrageous 'entitlements/pensions'

http://www.openmarket.org/2010/04/13/stern-jumps-off-sinking-pension-ship/

@ Peli
""" Do MPs speak for their electorates or for their party perspectives and personal ideologies especially on votes of conscience. Is that what we wanted from representative democracy? """

Is that what we get?

Representative democracy is a myth and after 50 years on this rock I have come to believe that everything the founding fathers of that great American experiment said is true. I can't remember which one it was, Washington I think said. Democracy ultimately leads to tyranny and that's where we are now. And is why Al brought up this thread, to try and explain how progressive socialists(using the Fabian strategy) use democracy against us and are leading us to tyranny.

""" This is true of regardless of Left/Right perspective. Your arugment about choice for workers to avoid dodgy employers only works in a period of high employment what about when people still have to pay their mortgages and put food on the table when jobs are thin on the ground. """

How does regulating the free market keep them in jobs in the first place? Is it working?

""" or they are heavily skewed by monopolies or collusion """

And these are the fault of the free market, or free market capitalism?

I would suggest they are exactly the fault of government regulation and laws. They are born from "extreme capitalism"(corporatism, which is just another name for fascism, which is only 1/2 a degree from Fabianism which is only 1/2 a degree from socialism) which is allowed to grow and oppress our communities at an astoundingly ever increasing speed and which is actually diminishing jobs, freedom and liberty for all those people you mentioned above.

So how does government solve these problems? By ever, increasingly growing and creating more public employment, employment that self generates ever increasing government, it's almost become a perpetual motion. It's the road to tyranny and a great loss for us all.