King Hazza has it about right.
Foxy I understand and respect your posts.
Remember folks I once said if you fall it will be a Christian who picks you up?
Little change would be needed, While I believe in no God I believe in humanity, we put our best into our holy books all of them, and our worst ALL of them.
Now one rather silly poster gets into me about grammar, do you really truly think your god will judge Us on that? foolishness.
Watch the bigotry on display in defense of Jesus here.
The Jesus I once followed if he existed would have thrown most of his supporters here on top of the money lenders he is said to have thrown out.
I charge many followers of every GOD with reinventing him/her to think and act as they wish, puppets in fact of theirs not the God they claim to follow.
Boazy? Can you be so self centered that you think I do not know you are trying to get a message across?
It worked, I found the same miss placed self assurance and selling of your self under the current log in that you had in the other two.
Still my childhood in harder times saw those changing names as moon light flit specialists, leaving unpaid bills behind moving home in middle of the night.
I have nothing to hide and will not follow your path.

Would they tell us?
No they have not yet have they?
In England for century's the English church[ one of my birth] was seen as the lifetime job of the second eldest son of the upper class.
Note not a calling a job.
I think we will never be told, yet are told every time we talk about the earths life span.
If all leaders thought GODS existed how could they wish to go to any war?
How could we see children raped by those who teach them of God if those teachers believe in God?
We would not be told we will not be told unless.
After if it comes a war based on religion if western side wins we may set out to rebuild our belief system.
Here I get into trouble, talking about a truly held belief even if shared by most brings PC police.
If followers of another God triumph we will take century's to find freedom from religion.
No I do not say that is My wanted out come but without reserve I want to be unchained from those followers of any God who think they can intrude on my life in bed or at play who use bigotry as seen here to stop open debate who are worse than those they insult yet think a God lets them do it.

Dear Yuyutsu

you said:

//One can only know things about objects.//

*stunned amazement*.... errr cough.. *rubs eyes*... r u serious?

Can we know nothing about 'people'....'personalities' ?

When we are introduced to a person.. all we know about them is their name. Over time.. more about them becomes revealed.

Why should it be different about the Creator?

Foxy.. this was a bit much for first thing in the morning....

12) Do not discriminate or oppress on the basis of
sex, race or (as far as possible) species.

*species* ? I agree with the oppression bit (except that I eat meat and rather enjoy it.. so.. sorry.. on my watch the pigs and cows and sheep will still be 'oppressed', and sliced and diced and then eaten.

It is beyond self evident that we have to discriminate against 'species' as we are human and non us are well.. different. They would crap on our floor.. rummage through our pantry.. rip the furniture apart.. etc.. possibly eat bit or scratch us or our children.
*Down BUBBLES down!*

You want to stop us *discriminating* against animals ? yikes..try getting out of bed on the other side tomorrow..

Sounded very 'marxist utopian' to me. (but in soft language)

Dear ALGOREisRICH,

"Can we know nothing about 'people'....'personalities' ?"

Of course we can. People are limited, they live for a certain time only, they are only present at one place at a time, they have just one or two or five name(s), but not all names, they display certain behaviours but not others, so yes, to that extent people are objects and we can study their properties.

Those of us who are more sensitive do not like to be treated or to treat others as objects, because deep down we know that in our divine nature we are not objects, but on that level we are not people either.

"Why should it be different about the Creator?"

People are limited. God is not.

Your referring to God as "Creator", I take is a nick, as an expression of reverence, rather than an accurate statement.

Attributing any property is limiting, even the property of being a creator, but God cannot be limited (or else, by definition, he wouldn't be God).

Dear Yuyutsu...

an interesting discussion we are having :)

You said:

"our divine nature"

errr..? "our" ?

But you also suggested that to describe God is to fetter Him.

I don't see how, because does you knowing limited information about me fetter me ? I don't think so.

Limited information between a Creator and the created is an understandable situation. If the creatION...knew as much about the CreatOR as can be known..then the creatION would 'be' the CreatOR.

I think you are coming from a definite philosphical perspective which is what fetters 'you' :) in your inability to grasp the idea of a personal Creator who self revealed to His creation.

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".....Gen 1:1

I don't see how such a description 'fetters' God at all.

That's also part of His self revelation. Moses could only know this by revelation or tradition which began as revelation.

We can pick this up later.

stevenlmeyer,

Thanks for googling the religious numbers. That was educational for me. I have long thought Judaism was at number 3.

As regards the God thing what you say makes sense. Hopefully you can also see what I mean. There doesn't seem to be too much difference between my same God different take and your claim to be worshipping (a non existent) God of Abraham with a widely divergent understanding of God bearing in mind our different perspective as theist and atheist. Naturally I don't agree with the non existent bit.