Yuyutsu...

you said:

(a god that could be defined must be limited by that definition, hence is just a limited being and not God).

Very profound :) and 'welcome to Christian apologetics 101'

That is *exactly* the point. God being infinite and eternal... we being finite and temporal (in this body at least) .. the only things we can ever know about God are those things which He Himself....reveals.

So..while we can have 'true' knowledge of God, we will never have 'exhaustive' knowledge.

I BELIEVE IN HUMANITY. Belly.. I find that history teaches that 'humanity' is not a reliable object of 'belief'.... the body count is way too high. (which includes those killed in 'religious' wars which were in reality wars of 'humanity' seeking power)

Right now, "humanity" is trying to lead us into a dark place beyond your wildest nighmares... but, like Satan to Eve, "humanity" is not blatantly bashing us with chunks of 2x4..it is 'raising questions'...and using soft politically correct language.

But I assure you.. the ugly truth is becoming more open as we draw closer to that horrible day when 'humanity' alone...is in charge.

http://www.glennbeck.com/content/articles/article/198/41022/

See the video and then "read Obama's lips"

Belive in Humanity?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utBs417IU_c

Van Jones.. marxist as Green Jobs Czar.

Look at this.. the Apollo Alliance wrote the stimulus bill.

They are the architects of the 'green jobs'..they are also rabid marxists.

The Green Jobs' they are talking about will goto MINORITIES.. not mainstream Americans. i.e.. they are race based!

Jeff Jones .. violent revolutionary marxist is on the Apollo Alliance and is on video record as saying, regarding Anti Communists "we have to jump on the table and tell them. we wilL BURY you"

Obama.. Apollo...Maxists.. one happy family.

Believe in Humanity? :) not a chance.

Like flys to a dead beast on a summer day my thread has bought only believers so far.
And our old mate Boazy, can you justify changing your name so often, what are you hiding?
A form of bigotry is on show here, not even close to the first time from Boazy.
The debate is not intended to center on one God, how truly strange Bizarre in fact, that In a world the worships many Gods we see a focus on only one.
I doubt if the proof came, it exists , many would change.
I understand we are educated in schools that we are a product of evolution.
And the wisdom of the men ,normal human beings reinventing storys of another God,who set down rules to live by, in say the ten commandments are hard to better.
But do others see the bigotry here, the need to keep the control Gods give them over us all.
Some, one always, launch into disgraceful insults about followers of a God other than his own, yet insult me for?
Just wanting an open debate.
PTB I think better of you, trying to mix contempt for Rudd your miss placed focus on laws few care about and the need to defend your God Color your post.
For a second open that big mind, tell me what you think the impact would be?
Would humanity rebuild a different set of rules to live by, what would they look like.

ALGOREisRICH,

"Very profound :) and 'welcome to Christian apologetics 101'"

Thank you, but this was never my intention.

".. the only things we can ever know about God are those things which He Himself....reveals"

While we may know God, Knowing THINGS ABOUT God does not make sense, since God is not a thing.

Belly,

"I doubt if the proof came, it exists , many would change"

Every scientist knows that definition is a pre-requisite to proof (and so is proper grammar), yet you started this thread without even attempting to define what you are talking about, which as you can see, makes this discussion very murky. At least in the case of "humanity" you could offer some definition, but in the case of God, I'm afraid, whatever definition you could possibly offer, would make me respond with the same "Aha, so if that's what you mean by 'God' then you are right of course, for indeed no god LIKE THIS exists", then what change would it make? (and BTW, you never even stated what kind of change you want to see and why)

In Dawkins' book TGD, he refers to religion as a part of man's evolutionary process (my wording not his).

Our whole legal and values system was shaped through religion, in our case Christianity, which is similar in its value system to other major religions.

Religion did not shape those values alone. Without man's natural affinity with each other, natural instinct to protect those we love, and the instinct to survive (better done with a sense of the group rather than the individual) the values we hold dear today would not have held up with only a man-made framework like religion.

For it to work there had to be a sense of a supernatural force outside the 'human'.

Now that we are evolving, and our legal and value systems are set for me the question is do we still require religion (God) as a civilised people to uphold a moral code. (And bigger questions about morality)

The answer for me is based on the belief that

1. We can maintain a moral framework that is probably fairer and less judgemental than a religious one (that does less harm) and

2. We are more educated now - do we really continue to manifest the idea of a God in pursuit of a rigid moral framework that in many cases can be distorted to suit a limited view (eg. persecution of homosexuals, obedience to a man as in some religions etc).

3. If we, to use Belly's scenario, continued to believe in God knowing he/she did not exist, that is instrinsically working from a known falsehood.

4. Religion is just as corruptible as without if not more when those in power wield such influence and in some cases fear.

But these are interesting and far reaching questions Belly.

Belly

And others

With respect, I think this is the wrong question.

I do not know whether there exists some entity who could be described as the creator of the universe. I doubt it. But who knows? I don’t even know how we could ever settle the matter.

The real questions are these:

--Does this creator ever interfere in the affairs of a Johnny-come-lately species we call humanity?

--Are any of humanity's so-called "holy books" really in some way messages from this creator?

--Has this creator given us a moral code revealed in some sort of "holy scripture"?

There is little doubt in my mind that the answers to these and similar questions is NO.

Message to believers:

The bible is not "inerrant" – the Earth is more than 6,000 years old, evolution happened and it is wildly unlikely that a God incarnate ever rose from the dead.

The creator of the universe did not use an "angel" to transmit the koran verbatim to a man called Muhammad 14 centuries ago. (I would at a minimum expect the creator of the universe to get the facts of mammalian reproduction right).

Regardless of the existence of a creator whom we may call "God" ALL human religions are false.

The question is not "does God exist?"

The question is which of humanity's religions are true.

The obvious answer – NONE OF THEM!