Squeers
”Defenceless people are forced to ignore their ideals and be realist to survive in a dog eat dog world”

-- Who were the defenceless people in the Lockberbie bombing, Squeers? Or, are you presenting a case for group guilt.

Bronwyn,
“they hate us for what we've done and continue to do. Start reading some Middle Eastern history and you'll soon come to understand that our exploitation of this area has been a long and sorry one and one that is far from over”

--Unfortunately for you, I have read a substantial amount of ME history –but my sources were not leftist rags. Imperialism didn’t start and end with the West. It might be enlightening for you to have a talk with minorities living under the ‘protection’ of some of your, victimised, peoples.

examinator
“ Most of their angst comes from at least 100 years of western, exploitation, duplicity, insane self serving national boundaries and then supporting unpopular brutal regimes to enforce them. Effectively sanctioning Israel's outrageous actions. Yet condemning the Arabs”

--What about the previously 200-300 hundred years of Arab invasion and colonisation –are we in the West allowed to feel angst about that

Belly

<< My whole post history shows I understand history and the wrongs of the west. >>

With the greatest of respect old buddy I don't think it does. If you're truly aware of the long history of British, French and American usurpation of Middle Eastern territory, why are you so slow to understand the deep burning anger of those affected? Why can't you see that this anger has been steadily building over centuries and is only now revealing its true depth? And why can't you understand it has very little to do with cultural difference?

<< Yes America murders too ... >>

Too right it does. The American war jugonaut is like nothing on earth. It sucks in billions of dollars every year which could better be spent on feeding the world, starting with large numbers of its own living in poverty. American military bases proliferate all around the world, American guns and bombs are killing millions every year, its nuclear capacity is the most deadly on earth and it's still striving for more with its ludicrous missile defence ambitions. I don't condone terrorism, but I do understand why it exists. If the countries where terrorism thrives had defence capabilities even a fraction of those of the US, they might not feel the need to resort to such desperate measures.

<< How would you feel if it was the Bali bombers? >>

I'd feel exactly the same way. Tacitly supporting the execution of Amarosi and co, as Australia did, was a wasted opportunity to show the strength and decency of Western-style democracy. A lengthy imprisonment would have been a much wiser and less inflammatory course of action.

<< Primitive? careful Belly tread with care, free speech has its limits ... >>

:)

Yes, it does. And while your tone is a lot more measured than most of the company you're keeping here, your words are still adding to the volumes of hatred and misinformation out there - that, when amassed together and as easily transmitted around the world as they are today, only fan the flames of miscontent.

TBC.

Belly (continued)

<< Our freedoms are not an idea they share. >>

How many Muslims have you truly engaged with, Belly? Of the many I've met and spoken to over the years, I've yet to meet one who didn't hold exactly the same aspirations of living and raising their families in freedom that we do. The Muslims who support terrorism against the West are a small minority as you yourself have acknowledged here. Let's not forget that.

<< Would Gadafi send the murderer of so many of his people home to die. >>

Probably not, which is all the more reason for those in the West to use this token act as a point of differentiation. The man is dying. He is no threat. His guilt has never been proven satisfactorily. The magnaminous and statesmanlike action is to release him. It's a powerful gesture which will speak to the hearts of many Muslims in a way our more usual sabre rattling can never do.

<< Blindness will not change facts we must not measure other cultures against our own ... >>

This is the height of arrogance and does not become you. All cultures have their strengths and weaknesses and all have commonalities. We have to look for them and acts of decency like those shown by Scotland help us to do that.

Lastly, Belly, why do you refuse to address me personally, even when you're obviously addressing points I've made? I know you have an antipathy towards anyone further Left on the political spectrum than yourself, but that shouldn't discount the courtesy you show to others. Is it my name? It's not hard to cut and paste you know. I hold you in high regard as a poster and have told you so before. I know we've disagreed many times, but I wouldn't have picked you as the type to hold a grudge.

I know I should continue to lead by example, just as I'm advocating here on this thread, but it's something I've noticed for some time and patience has never been a strength of mine! : )

Belly,
Not YOUR detractors. Just emphasising the IDEA that violence gains nothing but violence. Sueers and others are at pains to depersonalise comments and focus them on the principals. Personalising comments tend to be a defensive action usually against re-evaluation.
I can honestly say that you have no reason to be concerned about that. You have clearly shown like the active 'thinkers' on OLO that views change with information/effort(as I learn from you)...some on this site don't....That is the difference between a potential bigot and a thinking person.

Back to the topic.
Take the Irish many still resurrect the battle of "the battle of the Boyne" (look up when that was) and then there's the '1923 uprising'.
I guess what some are saying in essence is that ...we all agree terrorism is an abomination....however it's causes are many and complex and that in this PARTICULAR instance nothing is to be gained by the vengeful hard line. In fact to do so send a message that the West ARE
barbaric hypocrites.

Need I point out that the context of Lokerbie was largely Gadaffi's pitch for Muslim world's leadership. A cynical self aggrandizing power play. The Muslim link was (ab)used to those ends. By any reasoning G was the real villain and the perpetrator was the soldier. Notwithstanding the soldier deserves to face the consequences but in this situation more is gained by? Especially since the narcissistic G is in the international fold again. (Context and Objectivity.)
NB. my focus of contempt is G and not Libya.
Hasbeen has missed the whole point in both his example and in the the topic. He clearly superimposes his reasoning and interpretations onto people where it doesn't fit i.e. it's not that the the PNG natives don't resent the west for what they did it's just that symbolism is an abstraction that is foreign to their mindsets. Their languages and therefore they are literal and functionally minded.

Sueers has more succinctly than I, made the point that people can't be pigeonholed/dismissed on the basis of some specious political/religious/ideological basis we're way more complex than that.

In this world we all make mistakes big or smaller. Strong countries, authoritarin regims make bigger mistakes, bigger crimes.
The question is what is the cost for the people and for the countries of cause these crimes, of cause these mistakes and how we can limit all these crazy acts.
There is a long line of crimes and crazy acts from many sites, it is not easy to find who started first, it does not help very much even if we found them, we are not historians.
I am sure if we try to understand and respect other's sensitivities and interests if we replace the guns with discussions and understanding, if we promote our common future, our mutual benefits then we will solve much more difficult problems with less cost.
Always I support the understanding and mutual benefits, may be it is more usefull if we learn to forgive, even our enemies.
The use of brutal, ilogical power opens new circles of blood and destructions.
After so many tragic lessons, let's use our brain and start from begin with understanding and cooperation, for less problems and a better world!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,
That is all well and good, but your problem is to convince the terrorists.

Once they stop blowing people up, then we can relax. As I said 55 attacks in the last week alone.