Today the Scottish government demonstrated enlightened thought for us; they did what the US should have done after 9.11. Whatever the politics behind it, the gesture was more conducive to reconciliation and peace than any amount of war-mongering. Ironic that the US, the home of those great founding fathers, should demonstrate yet again that the constitution was one of the most inspirational pieces of empty rhetoric ever penned. If the US had acted with the kind of compassion, and self-examination that their founding fathers and the Scottish response implies, the West may have won more hearts in recent years, rather than the enemies they've made in Iraq and Afganistan, and via their supercilious version of diplomacy.

Squeers <America should have acted with compassion and self- examination after 9.11>

Do you think you would act with compassion if someone came around to where your loved ones live and bombed and burned them to death?
Or if warriors from the neighbouring tribe in the jungle raced over and speared 3000 of your people to death. 9.11 was an act of unforgivable agression. An act of war.
To assume that the West made enemies of the Afghans and people of Iraq is to assume that they were ever capable of being friends with the West in the first place. They never were our friends.

Incidently, I understood that the West was at war with the Taliban who came from Pakistan and took control of Afghanistan, correct me if I have got that wrong.

Let the muslims first show some compassion and self-examination before they threaten the lives of my children by screaming death to the infidel, until then I feel nothing but distrust and suspicion of their motives. Why would I not?

Here in the words of our threads author you can find why I oppose the very left till death.
Why I from birth am unionist, worker, ALP voter, an explorer of communism, then socialism, now center left with pride.
Find no common ground with the very left.
We should look deeper into the crime that was Locabe.
Why was it needed to hurt America so many people ,Innocent humans had to die?
And why did humanity call for this product of unwed parents to be released because his death is near?
Who gave such thoughts to those on that plane.
The reason behind his release has more to do with oil and trade than humanity.
His hero's welcome home, SCREAMS can we believe anything his country does or says?
Is the hate not clear?
What western country, name one, would bring a crowd to cheer a mass murderer?
NOW not tomorrow we must UNDERSTAND the blind unfocused and unreasoned hatred for the west.
From so many in this part of the world can not be fixed with appeasement.
And please those on the very left of reality and truth look for human rights issues in the country's you take to your Brest's too.

Yes it's an emotive issue. But what I'm talking about is the gesture implied in the Scottish decision. If we put aside cynical assessments of there motives, the gesture showed a depth of conviction and decency that is far more effective in the face of naked aggression than kind for kind. I remember thinking after 911 that the US had the opportunity to show the world true greatness, by acting with reason, self-examination and restraint; seeking out the perpetrators, but via diplomatic means, allowing the evil of the crime to speak for itself. Had the US acted in a more sober fashion, I believe they would have garnered far more sympathy and support around the world, and the villains far less.
Neither was 911 comparable to the jungle scenario above. The US reaction was due mainly to outrage and arrogance that they had been attacked on their own turf; while they allow themselves virtual immunity to do as they please elsewhere,
And let's not forget that Jesus Christ advocated the kind of grand gesture I'm admiring here--and the US an ostensibly Christian nation!
Like I say, inspirational but empty rhetoric.

Squeers,

Noble sentiments and I can't help to agree with the principles there in. However, the seeds of your argument's destruction are in the words of your own posts.

The problem is people....they are noble in mind but their actions are invariably some what less so.

As an observation people run the gambit from one extreme to the other and everything in between. Complicating this is that the individuals' range behaviour/behaviours are rarely, if ever, linear or contiguous.
They tend to be an amalgam of attitudes from anywhere in that continuum. This in turn makes generalisations rather tenuous.

A good example of that is whose version of Christianity are you referring to? Denominational rhetoric and dogma tend to introduce very many logic and 'Christian' contradictions. As you imply not all Muslims are comprised of religious extremism and Semtex. In fact it is by far the minority that are.

Mass religions to exist must have dogma and rhetoric without which their hierarchy/power/longevity can't be assured.
Like all laws they are set to accommodate the lowest common denominator and generalisations. Their purpose is to define and then control. i.e. who is one of 'us” and compliance.
If this weren't so then most mass religions are almost interchangeable on principles. love they neighbour, look after the poor etc.

The problem then comes about with those at the top maintaining power.
Those at the bottom misusing the principles as self identification in which there are over/under tones of both superiority and exclusion.
The third element is that that any organisation's primary purpose is to survive and prosper....it's individual members are subsidiary to that.

The out come of this is empathy blindness, a lack of objectivity, proportion and context.
I.e. 911 killed 4000 people (give or take) Yet US road deaths exceed 40000 annually...
Where was/is the rage? War on the car ? devise a better transportation system? One that is functional not ego driven.

Finally the problems are easy to diagnose but people's egos, selfishness, apathy and myopic thinking get in the way of solutions

I think the Scottish justice ministers words said it all.

"Mr. al-Megrahi now faces a sentence imposed by a higher power," MacAskill said. "It is one that no court in any jurisdiction, in any land, could revoke or overrule. It is terminal, final and irrevocable. He is going to die."

I find it disturbing that there are people who would see his release as weakness rather than mercy and compassion. Are we becoming like the terrorists we hate? Arent we bigger than this? Arent we more civilised and better than them?

Squeers

"..the gesture showed a depth of conviction and decency that is far more effective in the face of naked aggression than kind for kind."

I agree totally.

Some of the statements made by relatives of the victims are worth noting.

"British relative Martin Cadman, who lost his son Bill in the 1988 airliner bombing, said Americans convinced of Megrahi's guilt and sceptical of his illness should 'get real'.

'(They should) remember that the likely cause of the bombing of Pan Am 103 was the shooting down by an American ship of an Iranian Airbus in 1988,' he said.

He described the original trial as a 'farce' and said: 'I think he is innocent and even if he were not innocent I still think it's certainly the right thing to do on compassionate grounds.'

And Dr Jim Swire, who lost his daughter Flora when the Pan Am 747 was brought down over Lockerbie, said: 'I am someone who does not believe he is guilty.' "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/relatives-vent-anger-over-almegrahi-speculation-1771347.html

These are people who have no doubt followed the case closely. They have more reason than most to believe in Al Megrahi's guilt and yet they don't.

The Scottish Government's decision is most likely based on pragmatism as much as it is compassion. There appears to have been a reasonably strong chance that Al Megrahi's second appeal would have resulted in a 'not guilty' verdict. If so, this would quite rightly have caused an outpouring of indignation from around the Muslim world. As it stands now, his 'guilt' will not be questioned and that can of worms will remain forever closed.

Belly

"We should look deeper into the crime that was Locabe."

I agree. And if we did, we would no doubt find that right and wrong is spread fairly equally on both sides. These incidents are rarely the black and white issue you paint them to be.

Bronwyn,
I have to agree your comment about looking deeper is in the vein of my comments.

Without fear or favor I stand by my post, every word of it.
I have just watched this man hugged by the man behind sending him to kill.
And the fact is trade not humanity set this murderer free.
The hate, fueled by primitive belief, will not go away.
And it feeds on our freedoms, freedoms we would no longer have, if we lived under some forms of that faith, to undermine us.
A day will come when history and the direction of the world may no longer be in our hands.
Trading Americas sins for others is backward movement each crime against humanity should stand alone to be judged look a the names of the Innocent dead, including the woman conned into carrying the bomb on board.

Squeers, you say you beleive <they would have garnered far more sympathy and support around the world and the villians less>

I don't think so. In my opinion they would have been seen as weak and vunerable and open to further attack had they not hit back.

How do you use diplomacy with the Taliban? America asked them to hand Osama Bin Laden over and they refused, hence the American intervention there today.

Diplomacy is only effective if you've got something to bargain or threaten with. I haven't been following the Scottish Lokerbie incident on the news but I'll bet there's some kind of money or some kind of gain to be had by Scotland in the deal. It's never acheived with smiles and appeasement talk, there's always a what's in it for me when diplomacy does work. Otherwise diplomacy is not worth diddly squat in acheiving peace and never has been.

The yanks response to 9/11 WAS reasoned and they received resounding support from everywhere with Afghanistan, but then someone raised Iraq in some agenda driven conversation. The political and social aftermath surrounding that decision is well known.

...and it's easier to be reflective 20 years later when the single perpetrator of a single act of terrorism is dying. Seems to me a whole issue of an organised global terror network hell bent on bringing down civilisations is something else.

Examinator,
I’m a mazed at your post as I might have written it myself—even on the subject of cars. I agree that people are capable of being noble of thought, but are generally coopted into one ideology or another (left/right, east/west) and become incapable of thinking outside these constructs, or of thinking critically as denominations of one. People subscribe devoutly to spurious notions of their individuality, which are vested in nothing more than cultural norms, and merely partake of popular/authoritarian opinion. Real individualism is generally dormant lifelong. Human viciousness, and its reciprocation, manifests as a group-sanctioned and pragmatic response to stimuli. As long as people and policy are driven by popularism, rather than reason being applied specifically to issues at hand, there will continue to be a gap between inspirational ideology, such as humanism, and the material reality.
As Bronwyn implies, the crime that was Locabe has its own genealogy of cause and effect. It’s convenient to treat it, and 911, as a spontaneous barbarity that nothing can justify, but the fact is that human’s have a stupendous ability to rationalise any part they play so that it redounds to their credit—this obtains on both sides of a conflict.

Squeers,
Thank you...I jealous and your superior concise style. ;-(

I look forward to reading more of your work.

I’m with Belly on this (which just goes to show that there is still hope that one day he may vote liberal!).
If al-Megrahi is guilty, he deserved to serve the full sentence –I seriously doubt there will any lasting goodwill, in the circles where it is most needed.

What some have forgotten is that 9/11 wasn’t a once off, first time offense.
There were similar incidents in the past to which the USAs response could be described as feeble to non-existent.
Remember the embassy bombings, Clinton fired few rockets at an empty training camp –and everyone moved on.
Clinton moved on to Monica, which involved him firing other projectiles – and Osama, moved on to planning for 9/11
So why would doing an impersonation of Neville Chamberlain, post 9/11, be any more effective?

--“Life is rarely about what happened ; it’s mostly about what we think happened” --- Chuck Klosterman
If the dominant ethos in much of the Middle East, analyses & filters every thing through an “America is the great Satan” lens, turning the other cheek is only going to result in the USA being shafted.

It wouldn’t surprise me if one day a rogue group, aided-and-abetted by foreign govts, takes out a Western city with either nuclear, biological, or chemical agents . After which, half of our “sober” & “compassionate” minded thinkers- will no doubt wave a finger and say naughty, naughty ( of course, in a subdued voice so as not to provoke or traumatize!), and the other half will be madly searching for a reason to blame the West .

PS Mikk if I borrow a couple of million from you, will you let me pay it off in the hereafter

I agree with Horus and Belly. There is only one thing these mongerals understand and that is supperior strength. They reward any act of compassion with further atrocities. Compassion is not a word in their dictionary. Not to react is taken as a sign of weakness and encouragement.

Take Iraq, they were only united when the statue of Saddam came down and instead of embracing democracy they began blowing each other up, each trying to be top dog by the only means they know, which is violence. We have not been at war in Iraq since Saddam was defeated, we have only been trying to keep these stupid people from killing each other.

Any act of kindness and compassion is thrown back in our face. I saw a video of kerosene being poured over a hostage and then kicked into a fire. another of a boy, about 12, given practical instruction in cutting a hostages throat, sound effects and all. You can't deal with people like those.

The next 9/11 or any of the next one hundred, we will see many more, will shine a light on some who would cuddle such as this murderer.
Armed with hate, often little formal education only primitive belief death while committing murders is to be rewarded is its self primitive.
73 virgins? how could any man handle them, would they be slaves too, like so many in some country's.
No chance Horus I will ever waste my vote, shh do not tell anyone, but NSW is unlikely to See me not vote against my party but not for yours.
I again ask, do not let your humanity, the lefts humanity, be the rule you judge mass murderer by.
America is no saint it murders too, but is not the teacher of hate based on hate we face, ignore it at your risk.

Belly, Banjo and co,
thanks for the practical illustration of the points made above.

Belly, we are going to have to stop this, but I agree completely.

I do find those who are the most eloquent are those with the silliest posts. Perhaps it's a matter of too much time spent think how, rather than what to say.

I am horrified by the number here, who would give control of my kids future to anyone who cared to take it, & take it they will, if we let these twits guide our future.

These people are so absorbed in what they see as their own superiority, they spend their time in empty, & even dangerous gestures, & words.

These empty geatures are shown up by a couple of things I've seen in some so called less sophisticated societies.

In Samari PNG, long after self government, stood a statue to a bloke, who "had dedicated his life to making PNG a fit place for a white man to live". When I asked the power house manager, a local, why they didn't change the plinth he said they had more important things to do.

In Gizo, Solomon Islands, long after self government, the warehouse on the main wharf proclaimed, in a very faded huge sign, GIZO, British Solomon Island Protectorate. When I asked the harbour master [another local], why they had not changed it, he asked, with a distinct twinkle in his eye, "why, will it help you know where you are".

It would be nice to get some of these people to come to Oz, & give lectures in HOW TO GET OVER YOURSELF 101.

Very amusing, Hasbeen, and ego is an obstacle to ethical progress in the world. You do realise that realism/idealism are equally legitimate lenses through which to view geopolitical strife? The trouble is that they should not be separated; the realists get exasperated with the agonising of do-gooders, and the do-gooders are appalled by the viciousness of the realists—though no doubt pleased that they won’t be ritually put to the sword today. The real issue is that idealism and realism should not be mutually exclusive; each should inform the other’s policy, indeed be a single lens! Instead the enlightened ideological/ethical/spiritual rhetoric of western culture is utterly bogus, and in any case shunted to one side whenever there’s a dollar to be made or a cheek to be slapped. What is really galling is that our highly civilised societies actually congratulate themselves on the humanitarian ideals they routinely abuse. 911 wasn’t just about the US being attacked; it was another instalment in a long history of Western intervention in Middle Eastern affairs; that is, a history of opportunism, exploitation and rank hypocrisy. I don’t defend terrorists; they conflate the obscenities they commit with divine sanction, or good against evil, in the same way the west does.
The fact is that the US was in a position of strength, as was Scotland, and thus in a position to be actuated as much by the values it hallows as pragmatism or wrath.
Defenceless people are forced to ignore their ideals and be realist to survive in a dog eat dog world. But the wealthy west can afford to be upstanding and actually live by their vaunted ideals. They don’t; the west has always and continues to prosper by whatever underhand means is most effective. The state of strife in the world is such that realism is now the only sensible stance to adopt, but it needn’t have been so if idealism had properly informed realist foreign policy.
When the balance of power changes, let’s hope the new masters act with more propriety!

Belly

<< The hate, fueled by primitive belief, will not go away. >>

'Primitive belief', as you describe it, is not the only fuel fanning hatred of the West. The people who hate the West don't hate us purely for who we are, they hate us for what we've done and continue to do. Start reading some Middle Eastern history and you'll soon come to understand that our exploitation of this area has been a long and sorry one and one that is far from over.

<< Trading Americas sins for others is backward movement each crime against humanity should stand alone to be judged look a the names of the Innocent dead, including the woman conned into carrying the bomb on board. >>

I agree, an eye-for-an-eye only escalates the level of tension. I don't advocate that at all. My point is that the outraged sense of innocence portrayed by many in the West is misplaced. We've been wronged for sure, but so have we committed heinous wrongs against others. The outrage is felt on both sides, we don't own it. You might consider the West to be beyond reproach, but that's not how our oil forays in the Middle East are viewed by many in the Muslim world. We all have good reason to feel aggrieved, but someone has to break the deadly cycle of revenge. This is the point Squeers, examinator, mikk amd myself are making here.

Hasbeen

<< When I asked the power house manager, a local, why they didn't change the plinth he said they had more important things to do. >>

I'm sure these PNG locals would have changed the plinth, and much more, if they still perceived their erstwhile colonizer to be interfering in their lives and exploiting their resources. I doubt very much a statue like that would be left standing anywhere near Ok Tedi.

Then again, perhaps these locals are deliberately breaking the cycle of revenge, just as we're advocating here. Maybe it's just the type of action we should be repeating around the world on a grand scale.

It is a strength, not a weakness, for nations to re-evaluate their place on the world stage with honest and transparent self reflection. Being self-aware is the first step in correcting past wrongs or mistakes to steer the course of history that it does not repeat itself.

I tend to agree with Squeers, mikk and Bronwyn. The quote mikk provided is really poignant. We can all learn a lot,and achieve more from mercy and compassion than from the continual cycle of hate and revenge. The man is dying, he won't die a martyr in a Western prison but in his homeland.

It is not helpful to talk in terms of what other nations,races, cultures or religions might or might not do in the same instance.

Choosing to compete for the position of lowest common denominator is not a worthy aspiration.

This does not mean we take our eye off the ball and deny the terrorist threat but there is nothing weak about seeking to foster an equitable and humane influence in world affairs.

Sqeers,
What you call enlightenment, I call utter stupidity.

Surely you are not so naive to think that those that support terrorism will give Scotland brownie points for releasing that murderer. You need a good dose of realism. The reception that was given to the murderer clearly shows they are mocking Scotland and the Western world.

If they slap you in the face and you turn the other cheek, you will not only get slapped again but likely knifed as well.

These people have no moral standards and no ethics.

Since 9/11 there has been over 13000 islamic terror attacks.

In the last week to 21st of August there were 55 attacks, resulting in 334 deaths and 1160 injured.

You think it is enlightened to show compassion for any terrorists?

What is it with some mindsets that so often confuses their motives with that of everyone else. It's a bit like that character on Myth Busters who says "I reject your reality and substitute one of my own". In his case he is playing a 'role' on the show..that of a bit ...Thrill seeker. One wonders what's their motive.

Off the top of my head I can think of 20 plausible reasons for the increase in terrorism after 911....starting with it got/gets the world's attention. Then working from there. Most of their angst comes from at least 100 years of western, exploitation, duplicity, insane self serving national boundaries and then supporting unpopular brutal regimes to enforce them. Effectively sanctioning Israel's outrageous actions. Yet condemning the Arabs

Of course we in the west doesn't go in for internecine grudge tending....how long is the US going to insult everyone's intelligence by portraying Arabs and Asians as stupid and how they really won the Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan etc .

Claiming their tactics were justified to win wars (they started). Let's not ignore the utter temerity to claim to be doing it all in the name of religious freedom and democracy...

The pinnacle has to be claiming 'LEADER of the free world'. Ergo everybody else is either a client state or is in need of needing their brand of being freed. When we all know it means, freedom to be exploited.

the Irish as a whole, after all a similar faction of that country are still terrorists. We all know Catholics are peadophiles....bonus peadophiles and terrorists.

Seriously perhaps you can explain how the Scots will make terrorism more likely as opposed to how Western bellicosity is placating it?

Of course pigeon holing individuals based on some fatuous political polarisation always beats thinking , facts and objectivity in their myopic reality

My first post here is still what I strongly believe, and strengthened by some who disagree.
My whole post history shows I understand history and the wrongs of the west.
England, is far from alone in leaving with its footsteps from its once colony's trouble and we all should know that.
Can any of my detractors, any at all? say this act was not put on show as a victory for the thing that murdered so many, and the thing that sent him to do it?
Yes America murders too, and yes Abeu grabe was dreadful, but this stands too as a dreadful crime .
How would you feel if it was the Bali bombers?
Primitive? careful Belly tread with care, free speech has its limits, is some times only for some.
SOME from this religion believe murder is ok, demanded by their holy books, most from that very same religion say clearly it is not.
BUT some, far too many have no consideration for us.
speer's says something about masters, remember never forget, if those evil people take over, they well may, we will be slaves they very much the masters.
Our freedoms are not an idea they share.
Would Gadafi send the murderer of so many of his people home to die.
Blindness will not change facts we must not measure other cultures against our own, they never will in reverse.

Squeers
”Defenceless people are forced to ignore their ideals and be realist to survive in a dog eat dog world”

-- Who were the defenceless people in the Lockberbie bombing, Squeers? Or, are you presenting a case for group guilt.

Bronwyn,
“they hate us for what we've done and continue to do. Start reading some Middle Eastern history and you'll soon come to understand that our exploitation of this area has been a long and sorry one and one that is far from over”

--Unfortunately for you, I have read a substantial amount of ME history –but my sources were not leftist rags. Imperialism didn’t start and end with the West. It might be enlightening for you to have a talk with minorities living under the ‘protection’ of some of your, victimised, peoples.

examinator
“ Most of their angst comes from at least 100 years of western, exploitation, duplicity, insane self serving national boundaries and then supporting unpopular brutal regimes to enforce them. Effectively sanctioning Israel's outrageous actions. Yet condemning the Arabs”

--What about the previously 200-300 hundred years of Arab invasion and colonisation –are we in the West allowed to feel angst about that

Belly

<< My whole post history shows I understand history and the wrongs of the west. >>

With the greatest of respect old buddy I don't think it does. If you're truly aware of the long history of British, French and American usurpation of Middle Eastern territory, why are you so slow to understand the deep burning anger of those affected? Why can't you see that this anger has been steadily building over centuries and is only now revealing its true depth? And why can't you understand it has very little to do with cultural difference?

<< Yes America murders too ... >>

Too right it does. The American war jugonaut is like nothing on earth. It sucks in billions of dollars every year which could better be spent on feeding the world, starting with large numbers of its own living in poverty. American military bases proliferate all around the world, American guns and bombs are killing millions every year, its nuclear capacity is the most deadly on earth and it's still striving for more with its ludicrous missile defence ambitions. I don't condone terrorism, but I do understand why it exists. If the countries where terrorism thrives had defence capabilities even a fraction of those of the US, they might not feel the need to resort to such desperate measures.

<< How would you feel if it was the Bali bombers? >>

I'd feel exactly the same way. Tacitly supporting the execution of Amarosi and co, as Australia did, was a wasted opportunity to show the strength and decency of Western-style democracy. A lengthy imprisonment would have been a much wiser and less inflammatory course of action.

<< Primitive? careful Belly tread with care, free speech has its limits ... >>

:)

Yes, it does. And while your tone is a lot more measured than most of the company you're keeping here, your words are still adding to the volumes of hatred and misinformation out there - that, when amassed together and as easily transmitted around the world as they are today, only fan the flames of miscontent.

TBC.

Belly (continued)

<< Our freedoms are not an idea they share. >>

How many Muslims have you truly engaged with, Belly? Of the many I've met and spoken to over the years, I've yet to meet one who didn't hold exactly the same aspirations of living and raising their families in freedom that we do. The Muslims who support terrorism against the West are a small minority as you yourself have acknowledged here. Let's not forget that.

<< Would Gadafi send the murderer of so many of his people home to die. >>

Probably not, which is all the more reason for those in the West to use this token act as a point of differentiation. The man is dying. He is no threat. His guilt has never been proven satisfactorily. The magnaminous and statesmanlike action is to release him. It's a powerful gesture which will speak to the hearts of many Muslims in a way our more usual sabre rattling can never do.

<< Blindness will not change facts we must not measure other cultures against our own ... >>

This is the height of arrogance and does not become you. All cultures have their strengths and weaknesses and all have commonalities. We have to look for them and acts of decency like those shown by Scotland help us to do that.

Lastly, Belly, why do you refuse to address me personally, even when you're obviously addressing points I've made? I know you have an antipathy towards anyone further Left on the political spectrum than yourself, but that shouldn't discount the courtesy you show to others. Is it my name? It's not hard to cut and paste you know. I hold you in high regard as a poster and have told you so before. I know we've disagreed many times, but I wouldn't have picked you as the type to hold a grudge.

I know I should continue to lead by example, just as I'm advocating here on this thread, but it's something I've noticed for some time and patience has never been a strength of mine! : )

Belly,
Not YOUR detractors. Just emphasising the IDEA that violence gains nothing but violence. Sueers and others are at pains to depersonalise comments and focus them on the principals. Personalising comments tend to be a defensive action usually against re-evaluation.
I can honestly say that you have no reason to be concerned about that. You have clearly shown like the active 'thinkers' on OLO that views change with information/effort(as I learn from you)...some on this site don't....That is the difference between a potential bigot and a thinking person.

Back to the topic.
Take the Irish many still resurrect the battle of "the battle of the Boyne" (look up when that was) and then there's the '1923 uprising'.
I guess what some are saying in essence is that ...we all agree terrorism is an abomination....however it's causes are many and complex and that in this PARTICULAR instance nothing is to be gained by the vengeful hard line. In fact to do so send a message that the West ARE
barbaric hypocrites.

Need I point out that the context of Lokerbie was largely Gadaffi's pitch for Muslim world's leadership. A cynical self aggrandizing power play. The Muslim link was (ab)used to those ends. By any reasoning G was the real villain and the perpetrator was the soldier. Notwithstanding the soldier deserves to face the consequences but in this situation more is gained by? Especially since the narcissistic G is in the international fold again. (Context and Objectivity.)
NB. my focus of contempt is G and not Libya.
Hasbeen has missed the whole point in both his example and in the the topic. He clearly superimposes his reasoning and interpretations onto people where it doesn't fit i.e. it's not that the the PNG natives don't resent the west for what they did it's just that symbolism is an abstraction that is foreign to their mindsets. Their languages and therefore they are literal and functionally minded.

Sueers has more succinctly than I, made the point that people can't be pigeonholed/dismissed on the basis of some specious political/religious/ideological basis we're way more complex than that.

In this world we all make mistakes big or smaller. Strong countries, authoritarin regims make bigger mistakes, bigger crimes.
The question is what is the cost for the people and for the countries of cause these crimes, of cause these mistakes and how we can limit all these crazy acts.
There is a long line of crimes and crazy acts from many sites, it is not easy to find who started first, it does not help very much even if we found them, we are not historians.
I am sure if we try to understand and respect other's sensitivities and interests if we replace the guns with discussions and understanding, if we promote our common future, our mutual benefits then we will solve much more difficult problems with less cost.
Always I support the understanding and mutual benefits, may be it is more usefull if we learn to forgive, even our enemies.
The use of brutal, ilogical power opens new circles of blood and destructions.
After so many tragic lessons, let's use our brain and start from begin with understanding and cooperation, for less problems and a better world!
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

Antonios,
That is all well and good, but your problem is to convince the terrorists.

Once they stop blowing people up, then we can relax. As I said 55 attacks in the last week alone.

The principle remains wether you give criminals freedom or just punishment for their acts. If they demonstrate true remorse then mercy might be appropiate. But hatred is so ingraned in these people against the freedoms we cherish - for them to kill a Westerner is honourable.

By ”Defenceless people are forced to ignore their ideals and be realist to survive in a dog eat dog world”, I meant that if you are the weakling among a vicious group, it's no good pleading your case in terms of ethics or ideology; you must either cowtow or respond as ruthlessly "realistically" as the bully that mistreats you. Western capitalist foreign policy is based entirely on self-interest; divorced from its token humanitarian ideals, its actions in the world are pragmatic and unscrupulous--this applies to everyone and everything. The only way the Arab world, say, might be appeased is if consiliotory action served the interests of the dominant powers. The demeaned state cannot simply take what it feels it has every right to because it lacks the power, so it resorts in the end to the same viciousness of spirit that lurks beneath the rhetorical facade of western justice. Pleas for justice are like the plaint of cows in cattle trucks; not even pathetic; beside the point; which is the bottom line. Frustrated by this callous and despising indifference, and with no other avenue of appeal--their own professed values useless and naive--the exploited, dehumanised party acts accordingly, repaying viciousness with viciousness, indeed abominations that seem both justified and preferable to a mean existence beneath the table of an ogre.
Terrorism becomes a dogma, an end in itself.
And all could have been avoided if actions had been cautioned and tempered by genuine idealism.

I believe they did the right thing by letting this murderer go home.
His family should not be punished any more than they already have been.

He is being punished enough by his previous prison time as well as slowly and painfully dying of prostate cancer.His is not the glorious death promised to those who kill in the name of their God.

Maybe his crazy comrades will see that the West are considerate people
and learn something from this action.

Bronwyn you miss judge me, I respect you and even agree sometimes.
Not on this subject, and not ever that I am bigoted against Islamists, not as much as they are bigoted against you and I at least.
Suzyonline says his family has suffered enough.
When will the suffering end for family's of those who he killed.
I have every reason to be confused by the very left.
Just think equality was my childhood dream, but the left is silent on dreadful lives of females in Islamist country's.
You can, if you wish charge me with dislike of every religion, and say in truth I think we would be better without them all.
I plead guilty.
I hate to see the wars and worse bought about in the name of phantom Gods.
I we continue to forgive the unforgivable, in time tolerance its self will die.
I refuse to tolerate Americas crimes including the interference in our country's politics, but I also will not pretend we can be free without them.

Belly >"When will the suffering end for family's of those who he killed."
I would hope we were above the criminals that practice 'tit for tat' in avenging one death for another.

I would feel the same way no matter what the religion. The Northern Irish dispute between Christians killed people just as dead as the ones in the dispute between the Jews and Palestinians.

The war against terror will not be won by playing the game the same way as the terrorists. That would make us just as bad as them.

"The principle remains wether you give criminals freedom or just punishment for their acts. If they demonstrate true remorse then mercy might be appropiate. But hatred is so ingraned in these people against the freedoms we cherish - for them to kill a Westerner is honourable."

Bigoted garbage!
And "the freedoms we cherish" As if they were so simple and pure as a principle! Since when did westerners measure their lifestyle against principle? Freedom to be utterly self-absorbed, indulgent and "unprincipled"--principled in the breach--to grow fat on glut and hubris.

This may not be the average westerner, but this is what the average westerner tacitly subscribes to by feeding off and turning a blind eye to the dispossession and misery of those we exploit.
All I'm saying is, lets as a nation start weighing our actions in the world against the principles we claim to cherish.

Squeers,
Thank you for your forthright reply.

Quite unlike some who have posted on this thread –and when challenged have resorted to sulking in the corner and whispering to themselves ( rather in the manner of Muttley the cartoon character) . I can’t make out what it is they’re whining about, but I picked up the odd word like ‘bigot’, or ,was it ‘bogey man’?

I won’t mention names, well…Ok! I will, but I will write them backwards so as not to embarrass the guilty: rotanimaxe & nywnorb (wink, wink)

Anyway back to the issue:
You say: “All I'm saying is, lets as a nation start weighing our actions in the world against the principles we claim to cherish.”

Now, if that was -all- you were saying I think I could agree with you – but in full reading of your post it sounds like you are saying a lot more.

And I’m thinking that what you said about Westerners could equally have been said about Easterners, Southerners or Northerners. After all they’ve all had their share of empire ; had a hand in raping, pillaging and murdering at one time or other – it just so happens at this point in history the Westerners get most,but not all, of the bad press(leastways the press you seem to read) – maybe, it has less to do with capitalism than human nature?

Oh, one more point –do you think those killed in the bombing at Lockerbie were guilty or innocent (I mean, believing as you do that the: “average westerner tacitly subscribes to by feeding off and turning a blind eye to the dispossession and misery of those we exploit.”) –did they get their just deserts –what do you say?

Horus

<< Quite unlike some who have posted on this thread –and when challenged have resorted to sulking in the corner and whispering to themselves ( rather in the manner of Muttley the cartoon character) . I can’t make out what it is they’re whining about, but I picked up the odd word like ‘bigot’, or ,was it ‘bogey man’?

I won’t mention names, well…Ok! I will, but I will write them backwards so as not to embarrass the guilty: rotanimaxe & nywnorb (wink, wink) >>

What are you on about, man? I've posted 700 words on this thread today. That's hardly 'whispering' or 'sulking in the corner', as you suggest. And I've not once used the term 'bigot' or 'bogey man'.

If you're going to name me as 'guilty', please have the decency to get your case in order. Examinator's a great bloke but I shouldn't have to be dragged through the mud for his crimes!

Give me some room girls I am about to climb on the stump.
We do that, and damage myself, yes true, to say it like it is in my view is the only way.
But modern man , diplomatic man, would fake it, say other than they think and slink away muttering about silly people.
I see here deliberate blindness, untruthfulness, avoidance of the real world.
This grub is free for no other reason than the British government put trade before justice.
If his freedom to die at home was the issue, if he was smuggled home quietly, without mass celebrations in front of the Medea, we maybe could forget.
I ,[sorry but true], think the appeasement, womanly forgiveness, is weakness and wrong, once a few more thousand are murdered views may change.
But one day we all will stop measuring these people against our selves.
From within Islam[NOT ISLAMISTS] you will hear views very much like my own, but the leftist blind female views expressed here are in my view rubbish.

Horus,
"And I’m thinking that what you said about Westerners could equally have been said about Easterners, Southerners or Northerners".
Sadly yes, this capacity for cant is a human condition, indeed possibly a male one since they tend to run the show. But the important point I'm trying to make is "power". Those in the dominant position are the only ones, "realistically", who have the luxury to bring their ostensible ideals to bare on their actions.
Do you actually think that because what I'm condemning has a long and diverse history it's excusable? If Western dominance was as enlightened as it congratulates itself on being, it would act accordingly and abandon precedent.
Your last question is idiotic--did the victims of Lockerbie get their just desserts--and vile!
The point stands though that we are all guilty by association, and to the extent that we ignore or rationalise and enjoy the proceeds from the appalling things that are done by the governments we elect.
I'm not one of the girls btw Belly, but three cheers for their superior good sense!

Horus old son,

Bronwyn is right attack my views if you feel the need but to tar others with my peculiar brand of prose is beyond the pale. My sins are mine, hers are hers. I can assure you that any agreement with anybody and me on OLO is an issue by issue event... there is NO conspiracy. Perhaps I tend to agree with the more reasoned, less confrontational approach.

I too do not run from a discussion I comment when I have something to CONTRIBUTE.
Not that he or anyone needs my approval but in context Sueers is doing an infinitely better job. My approach (less effective, less clear, concise) is different more power to him. So why confuse the issue?
Clearly my intention to throw "the revenge at all costs argument" rationale back, missed its mark ...bugger...what's new!

Whimpering in some corner... me? Not likely

Belly >"From within Islam[NOT ISLAMISTS] you will hear views very much like my own, but the leftist blind female views expressed here are in my view rubbish."
Ironically Belly, from within Islam we are told women's views are not always allowed so I imagine you would be very comfortable among that crowd.
This apparently leftist,blind female is not an Islamist, nor living in an Islamic society, so I will say what I want.

'I ,[sorry but true], think the appeasement, womanly forgiveness, is weakness and wrong, once a few more thousand are murdered views may change."
Womenly forgiveness? To forgive takes far more guts than to carry revenge on your back.

Men are the ones, in the main, who arrange for and carry out most of the terrorist violence in our world.
Maybe it is time women were given more of a say and maybe the killing would lessen. We certainly couldn't do any worse?

Squeers – I’m inclined to think that there are no vile questions – it's the lack of questioning that's vile.

Examinator – Aaah! perhaps I misjudged you – you are really a likable guy when you are not talking politics – more like Old English Sheep Dog, than Mutley.

Bronwyn –Cheers – point taken.

Belly– Once again, I am taken by your good judgment and fair mindedness.If the girls are entitled to three cheers, you must be entitled to six!

Anyway its been nice chatting with you all.I’m sure we’ll come to blows again on some other thread , sooner or later....there’s a whisper on the wind about Schapelle Corby should be released /returned to OZ – though, I think I might give that one a miss!

I am sorry boys, I could not be bothered with this unintelligent thread and this is the first thread I have decided to unsubscribe.

I am no woman hater, quite the reverse.
But some times I will walk away rather than argue with some.
It does not say I am defeated.
The views some express here are wrong.
Minority ones, and wrong.
I highlight my claims remain my true views.
And that enlightened thought is the last thing being shown by some here.
EACH crime against humanity should be judged on its own.
To highlight the wests faults, to devalue the crime this grub did, is leftist swill.
To think, even for a second, the homeland that sent him ,in any way, has shown anything but disrespect for those he murdered is blindness.
My life has been within the left of center, I revel in and embrace the changes I have seen, but I smell Greens here.
The unfocused extremism of some from that party forever and ever keep it from becoming other than a small party never to lead.
I leave the thread, it is too far from reality, and mainstream thought to be bothered with.

Well I've enjoyed the chat, all, and I'm not so deluded as to think that there aren't valid criticisms of my position. Politics and and ethics though, in my view, have been too long asunder.
Have a nice day.

Belly

<< I am no woman hater, quite the reverse. But some times I will walk away rather than argue with some. >>

Not before taking a few parting shots though, hey Belly!

<< .. but the leftist blind female views expressed here are in my view rubbish. >>

<< The views some express here are wrong. Minority ones, and wrong. >>

<< .. I smell Greens here. The unfocused extremism of some from that party .. >>

<< I leave the thread, it is too far from reality, and mainstream thought to be bothered with. >>

Quite a spray really, all of it unsubstantiated and all of it very revealing of a closed and arrogant mindset.

We know you don't like 'faking it', Belly, but a little more consideration to those who've taken the time to present a thoughtful and cogent position on this thread would be in order. Anyone can make sweeping pronouncements and walk off with their nose in the air. It takes much more to present a balanced argument, and your 'can't be bothered' dismissal of those who have does you little credit.

<< My life has been within the left of center .. >>

You remind us with cringeworthy regularity of your 'left of centre' credentials, Belly. I think you're valiantly trying to convince yourself as much as you are the rest of us. I've read enough of your views now to know they place you very consistently on Labor's Right. And Labor itself these days has moved so far to the Right as to be barely distinguishable from the Coalition, which has also moved to the conservative Right. You might wear your Left badge with pride, but your views and attitudes are rarely reflective of the Left.

Squeers

Thanks for an intelligent thread and to all posters who made the effort to present a well-constructed argument. Hopefully, we'll cross paths on many more occasions. :)

Goodonya, Bronwyn--well said!
And thanks for your rigorous and eloquent contributions--not only because I happen to agree with them!
I look forward to more debates :-)

Thanks Squeers. :)

I won't say any more. Some here have already been accused of 'whispering to themselves'. I wouldn't want to bring on acccusations of a Leftist love-in!