suzieol quote..<<are you saying that God and the Holy Spirit are one?>>no..i suppose im saying..cause and affect...lol...or as jesus said see me..see my father/..my father and i are one...its a saying...like oneness...like minded

<<Ok then,..who created them?..No-one will ever know..>>well no-one is pretty exclusionary...god would/could or should know...we can presume/seek/yearn..to know..

as for god/who/what..created god..the accumulated/wisdom..is that god needs no creator..[being eternal and infinite].

but that dosnt stop..any of us..speculating as we chose...my current thinking/..developed..over the course of this topic...a theory if you will..has been previously/defined...gods creator..as such/if any...is most likely to be a collective..at-one-meant/wholy spirit...and i will put up/some further expantion..of the previously flagged..concept

the beginning of the bible...records gods..first thoughts..[post..this latest big-bang]...for me gensis..is pre-ceeded by words as/like..luke 1;1-3...then..like as john 1;1-5...then..gen etc

but..see how...gen 1..'''now..the earth is formless and empty..darkness was over the surface of the deep...and..the spirit..of god..was hovering over the waters..[of the deep...

and god said..[and the holy spirit obeyed]...let there be light...a huge bang...and time began...and lo there was light...and god saw the light was good...and..[that]..he..[the wholy spirit]..had sepperated the light from the darkness...

thus all days begin..with their first night..[into the first day]...insert john/one here..noting..the word was WITH god...but..in the beginning was../the word...and...he..was with god in the beginning...through him../all things were made..etc

i have allways had a problem with jesus being god..[and being created of man....but..as being part of the..wholly spirit..[as we all are]...well maybe jesus..[and all of us]...were..as one...with god ...in the beginning...lol...how else could god know all?...pre big bang...lol

<<You are supposedly..getting all this information through Jesus,..>>...lol..NO..its via imagry..that forms in my mind..from your questions..reading..[the holy texts]...and syncronicity...surity that god lives..in real time...now..[and..a great imagination/...mixed with poor word-skills/..love of god/creation...and enjoyment to reply

<<If they..didn't have the good book to follow,..then how on earth did they get on?>>>..as previously noted..god live in live time all the time..[each big bang is identical]...to the atom...when we die we are allowed to read the book of life...that reportedly is as old as god..[allways was..allways will be../timeless]...predicably indentical

im better rebutting current/science facts...rebutting the flesh/blood/living...not the spirits as passed over...or translations of their vairious texts

Hmmm...I am none the wiser, One Under God. I think I am done now with this thread because none of us will ever agree...it's been a wild ride though! -lol.

thats fine suzie
i wasnt posting to inform...only seeking science..to rebut...
pulling a few weeds/..planting a few seeds
and pulling some legs...planting some egg heads

see scripture can be wrong..yet still be scripture...

but science cant be wrong and still be science,.
..even if it can still be called..scientific...its not true science...

i love scripture enough..to look over..[overlook]..a few errors...
and love science enough..to de-test/de-bait..bad/sloppy/decietfull science

and yeah..i guess i love god too much..
to let science/religioun's..faulse god/heads..to distort/distract/decry..
his inherant good works/mercy/love

let those who believe..have faith
in their belief's teachers teaching/explaining..based on the facts
explaining to their faithfull..
the true cause of causes

in gods timelesness..[now]..not mans then...if not now..then when?

UOG

"see scripture can be wrong..yet still be scripture" -like genesis?

It is good to see you finally admit that your beliefs are based on "love" and not on reason.

Shadow Minister,

OUG also holds that the Holy Spirit created God, whom, in turn, created our universe, which ultimately became more complex than God itself. A position that would be quite radical to Western trinitarian like Sells.

OUG,

By “mature” universe, I mean today’s universe in contrast with the early universe.

Your idea of a non-complex God is reminiscent of Aristotle’s “Unmoved Mover”, wherein the universe always had motion and always will have motion, yet the simplier UM exists as a transcendental goal. I do not hold that theory, but recognize that Aristotle and you would have the prime transcendental force to be in a sense “lesser” than temporal existence. Both posits would seem to have the universe more complex than the alleged transcendent entity.

I may have misread you reply, so ask: Who created the Holy Spirit? Is the Holy Spirit more complex than God? Is the Holy Spirit more complex that the universe?

Examinator,

Sorry, I can’t locate the old Scientific American publication and couldn’t find on a uni database. It will probably turn-up a year from now when I not looking.

Shadow Minister<<scripture can be wrong...like genesis?>>..gensis is what it is...it postuales a beginning...long before science..concieved their big-bang...

it lists..the steps of creation...like evoluion postulates evolutionary-progression...why scripture is scripture..is as it records the thought..of dead people/spirits...like say aristotal or shakespear..it is/stands..as it is

<<your beliefs..are based on.."love"..and not on reason.>>reason-able love




Shadow Minister<<Your idea of a non-complex God..is reminiscent of Aristotle’s..“Unmoved Mover”,..wherein the universe always had motion and always will have motion,..yet the simplier UM exists as a transcendental goal.>>..im not fixed in my beliefs...but..knowing the science dosnt add up..i search for the unseen cause/mover...ok thanks


<<..Who created the Holy Spirit?..Is the Holy Spirit more complex than God?..Is the Holy Spirit more complex that the universe?>>i will attempt to form a reply

we have divided ideas of god..who from the first few chapters..up to gen 2;4...when mid/sentance god..suddenly becomes..lord god...

further..we can take that yet further..to where today those of the christ..make claim that man/christ is god...but the commandments are clear..about having none../before god...and that god is one

thus what is this lord/god..[lord of these realms..[satan]..who offered these realms to jesus]...what of jesus words from john..Jesus refers to sin and blasphemy..against the Holy Spirit..as unforgivable sin.

What are these sins..and what constitutes blasphemy?..indeed what is the holy spirit...there i feel we have had subtil direction upon the reply...

jesus says love neighbour..together..[at..[at-one-meant]..holy spirit]

..if collectivly all neighbours..are neurons..of the[one]..at-one-ment..of the holy..spirit..god is one..

[at-one-meant..with god becomes two...ie conjoined into one wholy spirit...cause of the cause of causes]

Mark 3:29..But whoever blasphemes..against the Holy Spirit..will never be forgiven;[not at one meant]..he is guilty of an eternal sin.(Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit..Matthew 12:31-32 and Luke 12:10).

i dont know the how/truth of it...and dare to speculate...figuring we all got a bit/of the truth...the holy trinity..to me seemed a way of creating jesus[man]..to be spirit[god]...

but we are body..animated by spirit,..when we die/we are souls animated by spirit...god..may..simply be an embodyment of the holy spirit...or not..its our feee choice...

im just following..where my other..[fellow]..neurons lead...trying to be tying the dots..into logus/logic..at-one-meant