I think OUG has debated well here.

That he believes in a creator is no big deal really. He can't prove it, but we can't prove the big bang either or the cause of the singularity that allegedly caused the big bang.

OUG you do however use the Bible as a reference and you do quote it only when it suits you.

By quoting Jesus or your understanding of Jesus' role are you saying the New Testament is accurate?

You seem quite happy to believe that SATAN exists and is the ruler of this realm (so much for the power of GOD), you are quite happy to accept that SATAN offered JESUS this realm (GOD knew Jesus wouldn't be tempted he knows everything),and you believe the bits that state that if you blaspheme against the holy spirit then that is a cause of eternal damnation.

It seems unbelievable to me that speaking against the Holy Spirit is the worst sin of all. GOD could stop this debating in an instant by creating another clay person.

BUT people will believe what they will.

OUG seems to be thinking and questioning on ALL matters. Maybe not his core beliefs in GOD and SATAN...In the end his theories are no worse than anyone elses.

AS Jesus was allegedly with God in heaven and was made perfect.

So basically, According to the bible and believers

God can destroy Satan and all his evil at any time (but doesn't). But more absurd God in not doing so hands humans over to Satan in what OUG believes is Satan's realm.

Isn't this just an excuse used by believers to justify their God's lack of intervention in wars and atrocities like the holocaust and all other manner of areas where people suffer.

And yet Jesus says John 14:14: If ye shall ask anything in my name, I will do it. I am certain people in the holocaust prayed quite loudly!

Aren't believers saying that Jesus told an untruth?...

If there is a GOD, and great designer then he ain't all that good at edumecationalising us is he/she/it?

In early societies the terrors of religion were instantiated to keep the population in check and maintain the status quo. Nothing much has changed except that church and state now work in tandem; both are reliant on stability, and thus work symbiotically to maintain it.

I exhort you, Mortals! Let your rational selves stand back for a moment and ponder ... are we really "debating" with these witchdoctors (not the wretched minions, but their priests) who earn their ample subsistence by propagating ignorance and primitive subservience?
Science is mere method, but better its modest tenets and its light shone into darkness than huddling in fear and brooding over God’s terrible wrath!

Opinionated2<<Bible..a reference>>..quite simply...as long as its there..why not quote it...i could quote..an elisabethian play/or shakespere..or byron...but most know the bible..as a referance/better

<<..are you saying the New-Testament..is accurate?>>..i dont have enough info/..to judge it..[i know thomas bacon..basiclly organised/translated it..into its present format]...as i said..its a basic/referance..most can relate to

<<You../believe..SATAN exists>>...it is a creative fiction/miss-represented...its us who chose sin...not satan..who makes us sin/we tempt ourselves...satan..if he egsists..has taught much...and been scape-goated to boot...i dont believe in santa..[either]..but reserve the right..to use his name/qualities..to explain a point

<<It seems unbelievable to..that speaking against/the Holy Spirit is the worst sin..of all.>.i only quote..as was written..[believe/interpritate as..you..chose

<<GOD could stop/this debating..by creating another clay person>..he allready has..ITS SCIENCE THAT HASNT..MADE..THEIR goyam....robots are close...but not a speck on gods creation...science needs..to..make one first

BUT..people will believe what they will.

<<AS Jesus was allegedly with God..in heaven and was made perfect>>..i am willing to hear rebuttal...but it is..'as was written'...i have no proof..for..nor against.

<<God can destroy Satan and all his evil at any time ..but doesn't)>>>yes he could..but wont...he could kill leeches/mosquitoes/lice/bacteria...but their egsistances..are..our proof...that...god love's us..ALL

<<Jesus says John 14:14...I am..certain people..in the holocaust prayed quite loudly!>>...your missing/leaving out the proviso..john 14;12,13..anyone who has faith in me..will do greater things than these...what these?...its too late..to find faith at deaths door

<<Aren't believers..saying that Jesus told an untruth?...>>....no those of faulse/or little belief...lack the true belief...would you strap a rocket to your butt..and blast off to the moon...expecting jesus to do the rest?

<<..If there is a GOD, and great designer..then he ain't all that good at edumecationalising us is he/she/it?>>...he sustains all life..their lives to live...he sent men..many teachers...what you expect..[him to live your life for you?]

<<In early societies the terrors of religion..were instantiated to keep the population in check and maintain the status quo.>>.yes...its become a lot more scientific since then...lol..

drum roll..enter the NEW..[neo]..word order..faulse god heads of science..[and sport...and media..reprograming us with/ever bigger fears..

ever new/control mechanisms..for their followers/believers...the blind leading the blind

Touché, OUG. lol
I must confess I'm suspicious of positivism. Did you read the Eagleton article? He's a lapsed cum recidivist Catholic you know---any fool can be certain, but it takes wisdom to be confused :-)

OUG,

Have lost the plot again?....I can understand God not killing leeches/mosquitoes etc. but do you really believe that we need Satan & evil to prove GOD exists?

That is the failing at Religion 101...It is the exact opposite of what would prove his existence....Poor GOD just became unintelligent again!

The argument that GOD creates evil, so that evil exists, then allegedly does all the craziness contained in religious books, just to show he loves us is absurd.

Maybe healing a few amputees, or feeding a few of the starving, or intervening in the holocaust might show love. But the method you espouse is just plain ridiculous.

Haven't you argued against yourself again? I thought you didn't believe Jesus was GOD?

So please tell me what do you believe Jesus to be?

Is your GOD proven by evil? Suddenly you make no sense again!

The Jewish people who were slaughtered in the holocaust believed in GOD. GOD did nothing to save them.

The Jewish people who died in the holocaust called out to GOD...GOD did nothing!

The Jewish children begged for their GOD to help them...GOD did nothing!

So when you typed in reference to the holocaust victims<<your missing/leaving out the proviso..john 14;12,13..anyone who has faith in me..will do greater things than these...what these?...its too late..to find faith at deaths door>>

This breaks the teaching of the Lord's prayer. It states "OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN....praying directly to GOD! Jesus instructed people (most who weren't Christians at the time) this is how you should pray.

So why is John 14:12-13 overriding this prayer? Jesus if he is the son of God surely would intervene in the case of the holocaust wouldn't he?

The fact that he didn't means he can't, or won't or the Bible is rubbish. If he chose not to then he is an accessory, and he broke John 14:13...because I'm sure some people in the holocaust prayed to Jesus as they weren't all Jews!

Again where is this GOD of yours when he is needed most? Missing in Action once again?

opinion-mate-2..quote<<..we need Satan/..to prove GOD exists?>>.think of him..as an embodied./..teaching-aid/like santa..embodies gift-giving

<<It's/opposite of what would prove..his existence>>..without vile what is good..[its opposite]...its about../contrasting oppisites[supreem evil]..allows others to do supreem..good/..balance

<<GOD creates evil,..to show..he loves us..is absurd>>>yes..but he didnt create evil/...we chose it...but its egsistance../proves we really have..freewill.

<<healing/amputees,feeding..intervening/..the holocaust..show's love>>...but does/not allow others..their time to shine...ie no annie/frank..style benevolence/..no shindlers list

<<argued against yourself..again?..you..didn't..believe Jesus was GOD?>>.the son..cannot be his own father..[the wholly spirit cannot be flesh...

spirit animates the flesh...if jesus was good...seeing the good..is like..seeing god..[why call ye me good?]...there is but one..good/god

<<what..Jesus to be?>>..a visualisation/realisation..of gods..living loving grace/good...emauel[god/with-in]...that ye see me do...YOU WILL DO GREATER...greater than god?...lol...we..dont come close...but jesus did..

<<GOD proven by evil?...>>..how do we learn difference?..[between tares/vile and wheat/good?]...by knowing both...by their fruits..[at harvest time]

<<people/slaughtered...believed in GOD...GOD did nothing..>>please provide evidence...many claim remarkable resques...

what about the 25 million xtians in their bolchovic hollow caust's....recall death..where is thy sting...jesus revealed we die/and are reborn..instantly in heaven or hell[..acording as we chose in this life...[more shall be given]..of the same coin/..talents

<<people..died/..called out to GOD...GOD did nothing!>>if your spirituall sensitive...you could imagine..the armies..of angels/demons..that came/..to any war/murder/transition/zone...they appear to our eyes..as flashes of light...ask survicers..if the noticed the light-flashes

<<GOD did nothing>>lol..god sustaine each life..to live..[both here and the next realms!

<<..the Lord's prayer.It states.."OUR FATHER WHO ART IN HEAVEN....praying directly to GOD!>>..heaven lies within...read rev..gods thone is literally..our living eating heart...god seated on his thone..means he/we/lives

<<why is John 14:12-13 overriding this prayer?>>..it dosnt

<<Jesus surely would intervene in..the holocaust>>?...he did..in so many unseen ways...but so did gods many other messengers..[in the spirit-realm..they help each other..go figure...why..we dont try to help each other..here

<<The fact that he didn't>>..please provide proof

<<he broke John 14:13...because I'm sure..some..people in the holocaust prayed to Jesus..as they weren't all Jews!>>...many died/homosexuals/mental deviant/gypsies/homeless...and each got heklped..wether they prayed or not...often we need ask...but in times of mass admitance/..into the next realms..its all hands on deck...aid and comfort..first

<<Again where is this GOD of ours..>>..in our living beating/hearts sustaining us all..to live