EXaminator/quote<<..there must be..*a reason*..for life...Why?>>..think of it as god..simply getting to know itself...the dreamer dreaming his dream...to contact with his..[own]..higher self..he needs us to be us..to see..if..the fruit is good[so to speak]..if the movie/vision..[creation]..has its happy/good fruits..ending

see that your memory..isnt held in one neuron...but many...see collectivly..we are neurons of the greater godhead..what we collectivly know/..god knows...

each of us..is as unique as we need be...we each form the totality of the logic..of all that is..[ie god]..our flesh is his flesh..our higher being..is his lower being

lets say..the big-bang..was..his birth...presume to think..pre big bang there was no logic..[no god]...but collectivly were searching out wether this is a fluke...[or part of a serties of big bangs]...

see our collective knowing..may..just be enough..to ignite the next big bang..[should a big collapse..begin to confirm..not just one/bang but an infinity of big bangs...

we do each..accord individually unto..our collective being..as infinite and eternnal...as we are the thought process..[logic] confirming or rebutting his/gods..thesus..via his creation/dream

<<Consider I..*need*..to be as besotted with me..as I with her...(in my mind..but would an unbiased alien agree?).>>ask your fellow neurons...one may reply

<<Others assume..that we are the highest life form..Again why?..lets say highest KNOWN life-forms..[in this known known/creation/surity]

<<T-rex is both fitter and stronger than any man yet they went extinct.>>..and bateria survived,..revealing might..[just might not be right]..the smallest virus lays low..the mightiest man

<<..rationally explained as manifestations of animal instincts.>>...animasls lack the ability to reason..[no rationaisation]..till we gain higher thoughts

<<One can surmise/we never/..out-grown our../animal instincts.>>..provide verification..[prove your hypothesis]


<<one is secular/..DOESN'T mean that individual..is any lessor a human.>>..or any less..beast[capable]

<<'Life is its own reason'..therefore the only logical morals/are Humanistic.>>...agree

fractile quote<<"Imagine a puddle..thinking/this world was meant to have him in it,..was built/..to have him in it;..so the moment he disappears..catches him rather by surprise.">>..illogical..[if puddle..[water has logic/thought..via logic it became logically/aware rain...and thus..went to see the world

<< Where did the intelligent designer come from?>>>..see we collectivbly are refining the collective all..as we speak...say the universe collapses..collectivly..

we/collectivly..are enough residual/logic..to RE-start..
again...with a huge bang...lol...seeing the joke...dreaming the dream...lol

Sancho<<there is a third choice:..god exists,..but religions are false.>>...but for their dedication..the origonal clues/thoughts would have been lost...them writing/remembering adds..[enjoins our collective memory..into this present day reality...

its like us all living now..to work it out collectivly/to-gether

oliver<<The Abrahamic religious notion of god..as nothing but an omnipotent authoritarian father-figure..is so petty in scale and concept..that it deserves to be left in the Bronze Age desert where it began.>>>its collectivly very high thought...that..but for ego would long ago..have been lost us...

see..it joins much..higher thinking together..into this time..[in this place]..god lives in this..live-time/living moment...now

<<Yes..if God did exist..it unlikely is god..as identifed in human culture,>>..what's more important..knowing or knowing a possably higher truth...we each..are joining the dots...by joining our thoughts into words...

connecting just like neurons connect to think...collectivly our thoughts form the basis of mind..mind=god/logus/logic/light/life/love

Squeers quote<<..Can you present any evidence..that.."we are spirits having an incarnate life experience"..>>there have been posted proofs..[brief revision]..god lives in our hearts/sustaining us to live..para-normal activity...quantum science annomalities...

logic/life/love...will..to reveal a higher purpose..to being..beyond mere chance...our collective is greater..than the sum of its parts...our higher self..is knowable via his fruit/creation

[that links..[us]..to invention/..inspires songs/dreams dreams...we/can decribe that not able to be seen/heard or felt..yet utilises the unseen..to higher function...

freewill allows us to pretend..[feign]ignorance...but how amassing a flower a child/..life from sperm/egg...the beauty of all life in-finate progression...words/music/dance...procreation..at-one meant/empathy/romance/love/living/breathing/loving

<< All science is provisional.>>..maybe transitional

<<What about Lacan and the.."real"..btw>>..huh?..me?

the foxey one..<<You ask,"Does an intelligent designer exist?"..Yes and No...Only if you believe in the traditional belief..-in a created universe/with humanity at its center>>.oh dear one..if god is not the centre..then the vision is delusional.

<<But there are still huge gaps/in our understanding that science can never fill...>>..agreed

<<few people of modern societies..would totally deny the possibility of some higher power in the/universe,..some realm that lies beyond the boundaries of ordinary experience,..and in this fundamental sense religion is..probably here to stay...

<<As I've said before..it's all a matter of what you choose to believe.>>>...i agree...it clearly maps where we have come from...joining then..to now/..livetime into gods-time..[the/..ever now]..

My take on it: the intelligent designer dissassembled into the universe.
Any understanding between us is the process of reassembly of the designer. Currently- I do not think the designer exists as a whole. Once the process is complete the designer will be lonely and bored- and away we will go again. Reconstiatuted Hinduism I know- but it has a certain charm.

Barliman quote<<..My take on it:..the intelligent designer dissassembled into the universe>>...logicly then..it wouldnt be either inteligent..[or design]..would it.?..more akin to the ultimate/self-sacrifice..[abhorant to that..we know of god]...gods disassembly...or suicide,..also abhorant

besides designing means..a logic underpinning creation...and i see plenty of logic..IN creation..[not so much the various explanations hypotothising about it...yet all logic..to some]

<<Any understanding between us..is the process of reassembly..of the designer...Currently- do not think the designer exists as a whole.>>...if anything we are presuming to be made..in gods image and likeness...meaning that what we re-ass-semble..has semblance unto gods designed reality

we all have stages in our development...be it peers or rebelious-ness..or stages...i see reflective in the holy texts..reflections of possable stages of the god head evolving isa constantly higher standings...god essentially is like us...or like jesus demonstrated...and no jesus wasnt god...nor alone the only son of god...god has many suns

lets say..god didnt need to have a personalised sepperation of his constituant/constituted being...and mearly had to utter words/vibrations/harmonics..that spoke reality into bearing...saying simply be and it was/is...and this revirberated into string-theory...matter/reality...borne out of the deep

science postulates..the big bang formed..when two opposing equal's came together,...rather a science way..of saying heaven and hell colided...but..like alians creating humans...the thought must arise what..'created'..the alians..[or the oppisite realms..[h-or-h]...in the beginning

equally..there comes the issue of how/who..created god...the simple reply being..god was pre-big bang...remains..post big-bang...

ie was in the beginning and was/will-be..in the end...regardless of the when..of when this was/is...the big-bang is regarded as timeless...thus god egsists out of time...living in..'real time'...god-time...now..all the time..[the ever now]...good/god/now

<<Once the process is complete..the designer will be lonely and bored..and away we will go again.>>..see that we...gods individual neuron sub-units[..who have allready died..have re-combined with the allness...all that ever was..or will/could ever be...

there is no..'time'..in heaven or hell...in the other realms..all is gods..now..time..[the living god..lives not in the past...nor in the future...but lives..in this living..ever now moment...in live time for all time..[and beyond time]

<<Reconstiatuted Hinduism>>..who knows...only god knows for sure...and he is letting us figure it out..as we chose

Fractelle,

While at school more decades ago than I care to remember I wrote a story about an intelligent race of flees. They worshipped a merciful God who had made dogs for the benefit of "fleedom". It almost got me expelled. So I do understand where you're coming from.

Yes I do understand that life adapts to its environment. But that is not the full story. We still need an environment in which it is possible for life to emerge in the first place. Not necessarily life like us; but some form of life.

For life to emerge at least three things seem to be necessary:

--Chemistry must be possible which means the universe must be set up to produce chemical elements

--Time is needed – stars or other energy sources must not be too slow to form nor too quick to burn out

--The amount of initial order in the universe must be neither too great nor too little

Without these conditions we couldn't even have multiple stellar systems let alone life forms.

We live in a universe in which these things occur. According to our best current understanding of physics the probability of this occurring in a single universe is VANISHINGLY SMALL. That is why most scientists infer that ours must be one of a huge number of universes.

I THINK THOSE SCIENTISTS HAPPEN TO BE RIGHT.

I want to make that plain. Like you I do NOT believe in the existence of an intelligent designer.

But both of us are expressing philosophical predilections. Neither of us can offer any TESTABLE scientific theories that can explain the Goldilocks universe.

The emphasis is on the word TESTABLE.

If I am wrong, if you know of testable hypotheses that can explain the Goldilocks enigma let's see it.

Before this thread drops stone dead, and in the interests of balance, I highly recommend that the geeks and the analytics read Eagleton on Dawkinds: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.htm