Pericles,
I merely posed the question whether belief in intelligent design can be arrived at rationally, as Flew claims, or whether it can only be arrived at by faith...
"Can such a conclusion be rationally drawn or must it remain a leap of faith?"
You wrongly conclude that I have a religious belief. I don't.
Theists start from the assumption that there is a god.
Atheists start from the assumption that there is not a god.
Agnostics such as myself start from the assumption that we simply don't know, so you don't have to worry about bursting my bubble.

Under One God, the Urey-Miller experiment in 1953 was one of the most famous experiments in chemistry. http://www.chem.duke.edu/~jds/cruise_chem/Exobiology/miller.html http://www.nslc.wustl.edu/courses/Bio3183/allen/samples/Tenbarge/the_experiment_1.htm http://newsinfo.iu.edu/news/page/normal/8975.html

The later Oro experiments are less well known, but equally interesting.

More recent stuff here http://www.chemistry.ucsc.edu/~deamer/home.html

God Under One said: “mate thats error in trancription[nothing to do with evolution]..ok you have errors[that can be hidden[we call them termial resseive..[fatal if homogenous]..but in hetrogenus able to be pased transgenerationally,hiden and usually to no affect..[and not evolution in the proper sense]”

What absolute tosh. The sickle cell allele persists in populations of people in Africa despite the homozygote being thoroughly debilitating, because the heterozygote gives a significant survival advantage on being infected with malaria. When incidence of malaria goes up, the frequency of the allele will go up, when the incidence of malaria goes down, the frequency of the allele will go down. http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/malaria_sickle.html That is evolution in response to natural selection. An intelligent designer would hardly concieve of constructing such a system. Evolution does, because it has to work with the variation that becomes available.

Speciation is simply an accident of evolution, a mere sidelight if you will. When populations accrue enough genetic differences that they can no longer successfully interbreed, humans call them different species.

KMB, a belief in Intelligent Design cannot be arrived at rationally.

OUG,

There is no such thing as a half-man, half-ape intermediary.

Contemporary primates, we humans included, evolved from a common ancestor. Divergence happens, because of speciation, via gamete and autosomal variation.

DNA from humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orang-utans and macaques show a short divergence time after a “massive inter-specific hybridization event” in the ancestry of the humans and chimps. Wakely, Nature 452, Volume 457, Issue 7231

Animals more so than plants do have closed genetic systems. Yet, selective processes do sometimes operate to change animal chromosomes and the (revised) animals can reproduce (unlike a mule).

Patterson et al (2006) have measured the genetic transformations via the DNA of primate species. Recalling DNA is a time machine, Patterson et al (2006) note, the X-Chromosome divergence occurred in the common ancestor of humans and chimpanzees.

O.

Oliver:
"short divergence time after a “massive inter-specific hybridization event” in the ancestry of the humans and chimps."
First of all, to hybridise with success means continues crossing of different species with similar attributes.(coming to mind NOT 'the mouse and the elephant') Secondly the DNA of species (as is now proven) can be altered by shifting to (species specific)uncommon food areas and breeding thereafter. So following that theory, if two different type species (say monkeys) both left their natural feeding grounds and converged on the new feeding ground and their DNA changed closer to each other (maybe back toward their common ancestors' DNA) and interbreed, it would produce a new type.Right? All this could happen within a few generations.

agromist<<..Urey-Miller/experiment..experiments in chemistry.>>yes chemestry is facinating..[trouble being a chemical isnt life...i know thats hard for you comprehend...but the key-word in the heading is LIFE..[ie the_emegence_of_LIFE,..while/chemistry is interesting it isnt biogenesis...lol

<<re sicle-cell..evolution in response to natural selection.>>..lol..again/clutching at straws.. as you said..<<the heterozygote gives a significant survival/advantage on being infected with malaria.lol..>>..seems a nice gift..lol?..so this one mutation..you_yourself_selected..has a logical/reason for being..lol

<<the incidence of malaria goes down,the frequency of the allele will go down.>>..sounds like an auto-feedback-loop,..NOT evolution,but logical addaption,..a remedy arrived at by needs/based survival selection...SURVIVAL work's with..any variation that helps species/survival.

<<Speciation..an accident of evolution>>..no it is an selective advantage,..selected from the species-genomic/compliment,that allows those with the advantage to breed

<<When populations accrue enough genetic differences..they can no longer successfully/interbreed>>..stuff and nonsense..[look at the species of dogs,genus[or chickens or ducks or rats[or fruitflies]..lol..humans call them different/species...YET..they all inter-breed just fine..

only with..genus/divergence=non-fertile/breeding..[ducks cant mate with cats because they are divergent in GENUS]

<<KMB,a belief in Intelligent Design cannot be arrived at rationally.>>your responses reek of desperation..[rationality dont seem to be working for you evolutionists]

OLIVER<<Divergence happens,because of speciation,>>no mate it happens because of some physical/inherant advantage..[that selects advantagious traits that aid survival,that creates a neo species

<<Animals more so than plants..have closed genetic/systems.>>mate put a horse with a zebra[or a donkey,..animals interbreed[heard of the lion/tiger;liger..[but plants generally dont..[you got it backwards[..lol..[funny how nurseries have hundreds of plants not interbreeding

<<selective/processes do sometimes operate to change animal chromosomes>>no my brother its things like faulty/sepperation/transcription of dna[crossover]or mutation caused by sticking together bits of dna..[and other chemicals that stop genes from switching on or off or at the right time

<<Evolution does,because it has to work with the variation that becomes available.>>..MUTATION?..it works with what it has to work with[the ammasing thing is it works as often as it does

<<Speciation..an accident of evolution>>no speciation has nothing to do with evolution..[it has to do with genus limiting the genus it can viable procreate with..[as well as the cenus it cant

OUG,

There are three known forms of selection: natural, sexual and genetic. Research in socio-biology over recent decades would suggest genetic variation is up there with natural selection. Hamilton regards genetic selection the most significant, wherein animals and plants are a mere by-product to the genetic progression. Changes happen at a genetic level quite apart from natural selection. These changes have been empirically studied, mapped and the mathematical models reviewed. The results of these models are the independent arbiter on these matters.

Perhaps I should have said the development speciation in the new species.

When I mentioned closed (verses opened systems) I was referring the ability to achieve mutation. Generally, with animals, mutation occurs pre-zygotically. Plants work on a different (open) system, which Mendel exploited.

Eftfnc,

The article I read from Nature adopted the term “hybridisation” from another source and then went on to discuss genes, leaving the topic behind. What you say makes sense to me, but I am not a geneticist. (I work on the effects of cultural antecedents on knowledge discovery.)

The geneticist, Bryan Sykes states that the primate common ancestor lived about six million years ago. In the case of humans, genetic Adam lived 59,000 years ago and genetic Eve140,000 years ago. That is, the source of a common Y-Chromosome and common mitochondrial DNA did not start with the same mating. From the perspective of DNA we are merely conduits.