Holyshadow

Now the thread has quietened down a bit, could I talk about what you said in your second post? It’s always dangerous to make assumptions about what makes people tick based on a few lines on an opinion thread, but my guess is that the motivation behind you starting this discussion comes from the “dilemma” you feel about your brother. My guess is that your experience of loving your brother has forced you on a journey of confronting a set of beliefs and assumptions that you were brought up with. This is often painful and difficult, but is something that all authentic adults need to do.

It seems from what you say that out of all of your family, including your brother, you have been the most successful in facing that challenge. Your brother’s situation sounds a particularly sad one: while I don’t doubt reality of homophobia in society as a phenomenon, my guess is that your brother is struggling to accept himself as much as struggling with others’ acceptance of him (but perhaps I’m being presumptuous here).

As you might have gathered from reading some of the posts on this thread, the topic of homosexuality can bring out some pretty violent and not terribly rational reactions in some people, particularly men. Gays tend to be the last minority target (with the possible exception of mulsims) where this kind of illogical reaction, and casual vitriol) is still considered okay in some circles.

I have long puzzled over the reasons for this kind of reaction. When I’ve tried to discuss it with people who express strong anti-gay beliefs the argument usually devolves into circular arguments about what is “natural” or “normal” or “ordained by God” (the latter founded on the assertion that “I know what God thinks better than you do”). Often, fears are expressed about the effect on children of a more open and accepting attitude to diversity of sexual orientation.

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Some people find it difficult to separate their own personal tastes in sexual attractions and practices from what ought to be a universal and compulsory norm. Rigid religious beliefs sometimes play a part, but I wonder which way round it goes: do people have rigid beliefs because of a psychological need or does the psychology derive from the belief system?

Others take a “moral” view, but have a fundamental difficulty understanding that the morality of a sexual act or relationship derives from whether the interpersonal context is abusive rather than from which mechanical conjunction of body parts is occurring (or whether formal permission has been given by others outside the relationship). Sexuality is a potent experience; it touches, however obscurely, with our deepest desires and our darkest fears - and can easily slip from love to abuse: my guess is that some people feel the need to put very tight boundaries around their own behavior and desires, and feel threatened when others choose other - but equally valid and loving - ways of drawing those lines.

My guess is that in some people a homophobic mindset serves an important function in maintaining their psychic balance. A classical theory is that homophobia is the product of internal psychic conflicts (whether conscious or not) about ones own sexual orientation or about the strength of ones gender identity: that homophobes lash out because of anxiety about their own homoerotic feelings as a way of disavowing them. There was a classic experiment in 1996 that suggests this is not as far fetched as some would imagine. http://web.archive.org/web/20040202035152/www.apa.org/releases/homophob.html
I think this is somewhat simplistic, although my own experience (I worked as a GP mainly in sexual health for seven years) is that tolerance of other people’s differing sexual tastes or lifestyles correlates highly with being comfortable in your own sexual skin.

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Homophobia can also have what Herek calls “value-expressive” or “socially expressive” functions, by which the sufferer affirms the values that underly his self concept, or by which he seeks approval from his surrounding social group (including family and religious groups). If you’re interested (and it might assist in understanding the dynamics of your, and your brother’s, dilemmas) you might want to check out this web site: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/prej_func.html

I hope you haven’t found what I’ve written presumptuous, but my guess is that homophobia in different forms is something you have had to come up against, even though (and I’m assuming here) you’re not gay yourself. Your own experience tells you that it is not, as some posters have suggested, benign or non existent. Understanding it won’t make it go away, but it can make it easier to deal with, and less distressing for you when it rears its ugly head.

Best of luck to you, your brother, and all your family

Holyshadow,

I said that there is no point in dragging in what MEN AND WOMEN- people of the opposite sex – do in the bedroom when discussing unnatural sex. Something you are doing is affecting your eyesight. Natural, normal sex has nothing to do with perverted, unnatural sex. And, your new, added suggestion that I might have “problems” indicates that you still think that trying to make people you disagree with look ignorant or bent makes them wrong and you right.

You might believe that I am “not speaking from a fair and balanced perspective”. I believe that you do not have a homosexual brother. We are talking about you, are we not? I have 3 brothers. They do not need anyone speak for them.

You haven’t answered my question on the origins of your “brother’s” homosexuality, either. It is ‘here of there’ if there is any excuse for sexual perversion at all! If there is not, you are admitting that people choose to be homosexual. You have already lamented that nobody would wish to be ‘like that’. You are sending very confusing messages.

Obviously, I doesn’t matter to me what you do. But, if you voluntarily broach a subject, you cannot expect everyone to agree with you – even on left-loaded OLO – and you really should be able to do better than just saying your detractors are wrong. You are either a homosexual yourself or, as you claim, have a homosexual brother. You think the whole shebang is OK. Therefore, you have to say why. Otherwise, there is no point in bringing it up. You should go back to the quiet life, doing as you please.

Well Leigh accusing Holyshadow of being homosexual is the time honoured tactic of bullies to sweep away all opposition.

What is unnatural sex? Don't some american states have statutes on their law books that say if it's not missionary position it's wrong? Do you still make love to your partner the same way as you did when you were first married? I bet you vary it!

Holyshadow I join with Snout in offering my best wishes to you and your family.

Billy, thank you sincerely for your kind words.

And Leigh of course you are entitled to your opinion.I wish you well.

Snout when I have more time I will endeavour to give you a more complete answer to your post.

thanks..H.S.