What do we as Australians really think of homosexuals couples being able to validate theyre union in the eyes of God and society.?

Are we as a community ready willing and able to embrace gay marriage as the real deal?

Would we accept the right of gay men and women to raise children ?Should they be seen as role models for our younger generation of young gay men and women?

If we are all equal in the eyes of the church, why has it not been condoned and accepted by the Church and the Government thus far?

What do you think?

Being equal in the sight of God does not mean we have to condone all behaviour. If we allow same sex marriages why don't we also allow people to marry their pets? Those who practice sodomy might be able to convince many in and out of the church to accept their behaviour but will never get God to accept what is unnatural. You will need to make up your own god in order for this to be accepted. I thank God that many ex sodomites and lesbians have turned from their sin and receieved forgiveness from God. We forget that He is the Potter and we are the clay. I pity children who are raised without a mum and dad. We already see the tragic outcome of single parent children. That is not to say that many single parents are not doing a great job.

The reality is that dad, mum and the kids is a minority of Australian households. The majority of Australian children grow up in households headed by one of their natural parents - usually the mother.

We are all supposed to be equal in our society so I think its about time that the state recognised gay unions so that gays are not discriminated against in superannuation, pension and taxation responsibilities and entitlements.

I know a number of households where the children have elected to live with their gay parent and partner because the children thought that the gay parent could offer them better education opportunities and a more stable home environment. And I think they were right!

Whether God comes into it, depends on your religion and I am nominally a member of the third largest congregation in Australia. The Uniting Church was headed by a lesbian for a number of years and if she was good enough to be elected by her peers then that's good enough for me.

Thank you for this interesting and necessary topic, holyshadow.

Even though I am not an Australian, I am a permanent resident, so I’ll have a go.

You probably know that Holland is the only country in the world that has given the exact same right to same sex couples as to heterosexual couples including adoption of children or IVF for lesbians who want to start a family together.

As far as I know, there are no social problems and no harmful effects to children from same sex couples (SSC).
People who live in my mum’s street are homosexual couples with kids and they are no different from any other kids. They play happily together with other kids in the street and go to school together and their parents are also no different from other families except their sexual preference.
Being homosexual does not mean you cannot be good parents!
Their children do not receive less love just because their parents are of the same sex.

I can’t see why it should be such a problem in Australia- there is no problem if we don’t create one.

It is about time that people hassling homosexual people.

I think that if Australia were totally secular things will improve but unfortunately, the church interferes with government decisions.

I’m not sure that we are all equal in the eyes of the Church- if we were, then there wouldn’t be a problem with embracing SSM.
I believe it has something to do with reproduction- gays can't reproduce; or with wasting sperm.
We’ll have to get a good Christian into the discussion to explain what the problem is.

I believe that most religions including Christian and Islam have problems with homosexuality.

Runner,
marriage and relationships are about mutual consent and equality- pets do not understand marriage and therefore cannot give consent.
They are also a different species.
And homosexuality is natural too. It’s just a variation in nature and animals can be gay as well.
Again: homosexual people are no different to heterosexual people except their sexual preference.

holyshadow, what are your own thoughts on this?

Celivia,

I guess I could be somewhat biased as I have a brother who is gay.

I have lived with this dillemma for a long time now.

My brother struggles very much with being a gay man in a predominately heterosexual society.He speaks of bashings of gay pple by straight pple and is for the most part frightened of being found out, so he lives as an itinerant and never stays in one place for very long, as a result he has never made friends and mainly associates with homeless pple, who are for the most part accepting of everyone.

We as his family have tried to provide roots and an accepting family in which to grow, but that has not been very successful.Not all of us are accepting, myself not included and he semses this.

he is also very consciuos of the associattion that pple make about gay pple and children ie; pedophelia..some pple actually do believe it or not.

Runner the assertion that :
'single parent families are a tradgedy' is a generaliation that is very damaging in a forum such as this, for a minority yes, but I have a sister and her family is a unit we are very proud of, she is a single parent.
Im glad to see you corrected yourself.

You say homosexuality is a sin, well Im not sure that God or the Church would agree with you.

Have you noticed the amount of gay clerics , priests and bishops in the Church?

'Those who practice sodomy'..you say..well Im not sure that homosexuality is about a physical act, I believe it to be a state of mind or an orientation.

Gay pple fall in love and love and being gay has little to do with postion.Sodomy is only one way gay ple express themselves sexually and one that is rarely used.

I am time poor right now..contd.

No! won't ever happen! We aren't that americanised thats really the issue that the canadians think its ok but doesn't unionship really really actually keep couples together. No not in today's society with that large growth in devorses. We all know its 2006 but it will never happen and shouldn't happen i still to this day dont think that kids that grow up with same sex marriages "what what what" is what the kids going to trying to get there head round it is weird for us to even conjure up the thought so how the hell is a kid going to cope with understanding that!! I think they can do whatever they want behind closed doors but there comes a time when too much information is too much information and this shouldn't be debated full stop!

contd..

the advent of AIDS in society has been a derminant as to how gay pple have changed sexual practices to safeguard their health.

Im not sure there is enough evidence collated thus far to determine wether these unions psychologically damage children living in them or not.I do know that gay pple are no different than straight pple, just their sexual orientation.

As for the issue of sodomy..well Runner, I have been around long enough to know that this happens in staight marriages ie;man/woman, as well.

And Celivia, Holland sounds as though it has more liberal veiws on SS unions than Australia does.

Celivia I dont know of any good christians off the top of my head, but hope we can get lucky.

Forget religion. Nobody should be "ready to accept" sexual perversion. The fact that all states - I understand that SA was the last - have granted certain equal rights to cohabiting perverts shows how far down the road to ruin Australia has gone.

Correction from last post: It’s about time that people stopped hassling homosexual people.

Billy,
your church/religion at least seems more accepting than some of the other Christian churches- the way it should be! Homosexual people should have the same right to go to church and feel accepted there as anyone else. Your church sets a good example.

I'm especially appalled by the sect Exclusive Brethren for their homophobic views and their attack on the Greens for their acceptance of homosexuality.
I am not a religious person myself, so I have to hear from others how their churches are dealing with the issue.

Holyshadow,
I feel for your brother that he hasn’t been accepted by his community and some of his family members. I assume that he does not live in a city as there are some areas where gays are not at all uncommon and are accepting of SSC or single homosexuals. He should be proud to be homosexual and keep his head up!
It’s hard to believe that gay-bashings still happen in a modern, developed country in this century! It’s a good thing that at least you can be there for him.
I would have no problem at all if one of my kids would turn out to be gay- they’ll be exactly the same kids that I love no matter who they happen to fall in love with. Not all parents can cope with the idea of their child being gay.

“…the associattion that pple make about gay pple and children ie; pedophelia..some pple actually do believe it or not.”
Oh yes, I do believe it!
Even on OLO there have been people making associations or connections between pedophilia and homosexuality.
Same for single parent families: it’s not like all complete families with mum, dad and kids are all ideal, is it?
Every situation is different and we must look at individual cases instead of generalise or unfairly label families.

continued

And about sodomy: What’s the problem- homosexual couples as well as heterosexual couples have the right to do what they please in their own bedrooms as long as there is mutual consent. Everybody should mind their own sex lives instead of worrying about what other couples might do! Live and let live!

Opinionman,
we all, as parents, have to introduce our children to all kinds of families that exist in our communities including single parent couples and SSC.
Making something taboo is not ever going to improve things- get it out in the open.

Last year there was this turmoil when preschool teachers somewhere in Sydney read some picture books to the toddlers about homosexual families. These books were innocent and just an introduction to let kids know that sometimes children can have two mummies or two daddies, but it was blown up by the media as if kids had been shown porn!

What should parents and preschool teachers do? Teaching their kids that only two parent, heterosexual families are OK?

It’s just teaching about real communities- why hide reality from kids!?
There are some really good books for parents to use that introduces to children all kinds of families including Same Sex families. The earlier the better!

“Celivia I dont know of any good christians off the top of my head, but hope we can get lucky.”

Holyshadow…neither do I, so we shouldn't risk holding our breath :)
Billy or even Runner, can you explain why most Christian (and Muslim) religions are so opposed to homosexuality?

I think Philo has tried to explain it to me in the past but as an atheist I really don't get it when there's talk about unnaturalness! Brushing our teeth doesn't seem natural either. I even believe that homosexuality is a natural occurance in nature, so nah...I don't get it.

Leigh,

Could you tell me please what it is about homosexuality that is so perverted?
I am presuming you speak of the act of sodomy?

Would you not agree then that the act of sodomy between a man and woman is also perverted then?These are 2 married consenting adults performing the exact same act.

When one makes such strong angry statements I tend to think it is based on fear and ignorance and a very closed mind.

Pple can be too ready to listen to the nasty negative stuff bandied around by pple who have as little understanding of the issue as themselves.

My brother as I said is gay..he hates the fact and it would be the eaiest thing in the world for him to turn around one day and simply say 'hey, this is all too hard, I cant live with the fear and hatred any longer..I think I might just decide to be straight and normal now'..

If he were not truly born gay, there is no way on Gods earth one would burden themselves with this label..and be a hated and villified minority.

They might be gay but they are not stupid.

Unfortunately Celivia, gay bashings are all too common..it is not in uncommon to hear in whispered ,and not even so whispered circles, by young straight men that are 'going out to find and bash/kill a fag'

There is a lot to fear in this commnity for gay men and why I say who would 'choose' this life.

Leigh said: “Forget religion. Nobody should be "ready to accept" sexual perversion. The fact that all states - I understand that SA was the last - have granted certain equal rights to cohabiting perverts shows how far down the road to ruin Australia has gone. “

Leigh,
Forgetting religion I can do.

But why should Australians not accept people with a different sexual orientation?
I would not call it ‘sexual perversion’ but rather ‘sexual orientation’ or 'preference'.

Whatever you call it, what is the reason that homosexuality should not be accepted?

And what will, in your opinion, exactly happen to Australia to ruin it if same sex marriage were accepted?

People should be free to live with and share a live with whoever they please.
What would you like to see happen to homosexual people who have fallen in love?
Are they supposed to suffer loneliness rather than live with the partner they love just to please the homophobics?
Or should they live with someone of the opposite sex which they are not sexually attracted to and feel miserable for the rest of the marriage?
Just to please homophobics?

Not a good enough reason.

It seems to me that the homophobics are doing the damage to Australia rather than the homosexuals.

Oh I've already used up my 4 posts, so I'll be good and quiet for a while.

But I'll be back! ;+)

Celivia,

I do agree that those choosing to live as homosexuals have a right to do whatever they please in private. What I object to is the condoning and promotion of such a unhealthy, unnatural lifestyle especially to the young and vulnerable. Many practicing this lifestyle end up in hospitals with all sorts of infectous diseases. Just visit any infectious disease unit if you need any evidence. From this point alone it is easy to see how unhealthy the lifestyle is. To suggest that people can have same sex marriages is an insult to God and to the family as He designed it from the beginning.

From a Christians viewpoint sin is sin. Whether it is adultery, lying, fornication or sodomy they all keep people out of the kingdom of God. The apostle Paul refers to those who were once caught up in these lifestyles but are now forgiven because of Christs sacrifice and the willingness of the people to turn from these sinful lifestyles. He warns them not to turn back to these lifestyles. God's wisdom in prohibiting homosexuality is plainly seen by the consquences of those practicing this lifestyle.

Many who practice homosexuality often play the victim card. They claim they are bashed, hated, rejected etc etc. I do not condone any of this but I still hate the behaviour. I and many others feel disgusted with the way some homosexuals unashamedly promote their perverted lifestyle in events such as Mardi Gras. Other minorities such as Christians are often hated, labelled and rejected because they don't conform. 'Gays' are not the on;y ones victimised in Australia.

I hope Australia has not slipped as far down the slope as to accept gay marriage. Next will be polygamy and then 'consensual' relationships with minors. We have enough perversion thrown in our face without this one.

Marriage is about the raising of children,the next generation that will hold up this fragile umbrella called civilisation.

How many of the self indulgent,over sexed ego-centric gay trendies have an inkling about the sacrifice that is required to raise a child.To many gays,children are just another appendage,that stimulates their egos like the passing parades of new parteners that makes them suseptable to all manner of whims and disease.

Marriage is about the normality of having two parents of the opposite sex,who on averge give children a more balanced perspective in confronting life's challenges.The mono sexual mentality of same sex parteners cannot possibility give a balanced view of the world to children who are not of the same sexual orientation.

Homosexual orientation is the preference of a minority,so why are they dictating their prefrences as being a societal norm?

couldn't agree more arjay. well stated.

Any two people who love each other and wish to enter into a formal, monogamous relationship should be entitled to the protection of the law in respect of all aspects of that relationship. Therefore, I am in favour of binding personal covenants between homosexual couples, recognised by law. What I can't understand is why homosexuals would want to be specifically recognised in a relatioship called "marriage", which is a term coined by organised religions that have for hundreds of years only vilified gays. (Yes, male homosexals only, as churches have almost wholely refused to recognise that female homosexuals exist!)

I'll bet some of the posters above are from the gay, Leftoid side of society. Perhaps even from that pink Lavatos site.

If thats the case, what are you doing over here. Trying to find some new blood perhaps, or are you just trying to get in touch with the real world. The place where Mr & Mrs Average hang out. But why: i'd say so that you can beat up on them with your gay rabid violence, and twisted vitriol.

Nobody cares for Gay stuff mostly, and trying to convert the nation to accept it is just plain -well- gay.

Or perhaps your presence is more about the political assualt upon the nation by Leftiods. And because you havent yet got a well paid job in the bureaucracy. Perhaps you need to beat up on society with your fetishes, until some-one spots a gap in the rakns for you to slip into.

And where is all this anti-gay bullying anyway, accept in you own bent minds, and the * ?

Holyshadow,

It is my opinion that homosexuality is a perversion. Nothing scientific or provable about an opinion, but I’ll tell what is scientific: the sexual organs of males and females are different to facilitate procreation. Sex is also good fun. If it weren’t, the human race would die out. But, the breeding function comes before the fun bit.

No. While I find anal sex of any kind pretty awful, what people of the opposite sex do is entirely up to them. I understand that some cultures practise it for family planning reasons. Homosexuals have no such excuse. There is nothing to be gained in dragging in what goes on between men and women. The whole idea of same sex relations is an abomination to me, and I really can’t say more than that.

I’m sure it helps you to believe that my opinions/beliefs/attitudes are based on “fear and ignorance and a very closed mind”, but that is simply not the case. I think that you are trying to put me down to make you feel better about your own opinions. Be my guest. And, I think you will find that more people on this site will listen to what you believe than the “nasty negatives and stuff bandied about” by me; they also think that any opinion other than theirs must be “nasty” or “negative”. You are not a victim; neither is your brother. Homosexuals and their supporters have even convinced governments of their “rights”, much to the detriment of society as I have already stated.

On your brother, have you any evidence at all that he was “born gay”? I have never found any, and the general consensus is that being born with your “wires crossed” is a very rare event, although it does happen.

Finally, I disagree with your contention that people would not “burden” themselves with the “label”. Think about the benefits to social misfits – who might or might not be homosexual – in legislation of rights. Some people are odd

Holyshadow, you posed the question:

“I’m not sure there is enough evidence collated thus far to determine whether these unions psychologically damage children living in them or not.”

I hope the following links by reputable organizations might be helpful:
http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html (from the American Psychological Association)
http://www.aclu.org/getequal/ffm/section1/1c7apa.pdf (American Psychiatric Association), and http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/109/2/341 (American Academy of Pediatrics).

Unfortunately some of the posters on this and similar threads have little interest in an evidence based approach to social or other questions. This makes any rational discussion next to impossible, although I’m often puzzled at how often the same names keep appearing on the homosexuality related threads, usually making comments about how distressing they find the whole issue to think about. Yet for some reason they can’t help themselves. Hmmmm.

Gadget, you asked:

"And where is all this anti-gay bullying anyway, accept [sic] in you own bent minds, and the * ?"

See: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=267#4824

Gadget I didn't realise that OnlineOpinion is a forum for homophobic conservatives. Although I suspect the editor and many of the participants are right wing I thought any voice was welcome. People with left wing sensibilities eventually decide to bite the bullet and pay for a subscription to New Matilda but before they do . . . .

Snout good point. Let me add that other example of hatefull bigotry which appeared on this forum not so long ago http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=156#3008

Neither is an example of the physical bashings reported by gays but both show the kind of willingness to hurt others expressed by some with delusions of a private line to god.

I'd certainly not like to have a bigot like that living in my neighbourhood, maybe the council could bring in some kind of community tollerance initiative that stopped those with that kind of attitude having somewhere to live http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=156#3611 .

R0bert

Leigh,

As you obviously feel you have nothing more to learn on this subject.

Snout is completely correct a lot of pple have little interest in 'evidence based ' research , so a logical and rational arguement is very difficult.

You say that it is no good 'dragging in ' what pple do in theyre bedrooms, but in this case that is exactly what pple object to.

This is not a side issue, not that anyone wants or to discuss it other than in its rightful context.

So you say its ok for couples of the opposite sex to practice this but not gay couples,..and you go further by saying that the practice of anal sex is awful fullstop, you have personal issueswhich maybe confusing you, quite apart from anything to do with gay issues.

Your not speaking from a fair and balanced perspective I believe.

Arjay I think your comments stem from ignorance.

Can you prove that gay couples have a passing parade of sexual partners? That they get any more 'diseases' that the average population?

That they expose the children in their care to inapropriate activities?
That they are less committed to their childrens health and wellbeing than anyone else?

How do flagrant and wild generalisations make what you say the truth.?Just because you say them and that you have never bothered to find out the fact from general 'gaybashing' statements.Because that what it is.
As Snout pointed out..pple are not really interested in fact, dont let the truth get in the way of your own niavity.

You can 'say' whatever you like , but unless you can back it up with proof, it becomes just talk based in ignorance.

And Leigh, if person is born gay or not is neither here nor there , if they feel that is who they are, than who is anyone else to say different.?

Gay pple have rights.

I am firmly in support of gay marriage.

I believe allowing gay marriages will decrease cries of 'unnatural' which are constantly flung at gay people (remember, not so long ago, it was 'unnatural' for women to wish to vote - society changes).

One of my good friends is a gay man, and I feel sorry for him - he feels rejected by his family, and is often depressed because he feels it is unlikely that he will ever have children (yes, men wish for children just as women do - we would not baulk at a strait man indicating a wish to have a child). This man would make a great father, and it is a loss for our soceity that it is unlikely to happen.

I feel gay marriage would not only give gay individuals a chance to make their love public and formal, but also give their families a chance to show their love and approval - that is part of what a wedding is about, two families coming together, demonstrating that they approve of the direction of the lives of their children. I think for many parents of gay children, it is a great sorrow that they can never look forward to their son or daughter's wedding.

I think Australians, en mass, are ready to accept gay marriage, although there may always be opponents. But there are always opponents to every policy, and the extreme negativity of a small group should not overwhelm the rightness of the idea.

Doc Holliday,
Perhaps the non-existing lesbians are hiding behind the non-existing dinosaurs :+)

What I would like to see is a whole overhaul of the marriage thing. The definition is outdated, too.

Firstly, all people desiring to marry, including homosexuals, will have a state wedding (or a comprehensive civil union) to legalise the marriage.
The couple is then officially married.

For people who prefer a religious ceremony, they should go to their church and have a religious wedding or ceremony to make the wedding 'count' in the eyes of God, if they must.
This is optional just for religious people but it's not more valuable or valid in a society than just the state wedding.

All people will have the exact same rights including adoption of children. Married gay couples can still become fathers.

I have the impression that homophobics do not give their children a balanced view of reality. I have taught my children that there are all kinds of families and that these are all OK instead of denying it or criticising it.

It's highly unlikely that SSC are going to deny to their children that heterosexual couples exist!

Thanks, Snout for those links- I am sure homophobia and factophobia are related somehow so don't expect the homophobes to learn from the articles.

Homophobes have not made much sense so far.
I find the 'homosexuality is unnatural' very unreasonable for at least two reasons.
Firstly, homosexuality occurs in nature and therefore is natural.
Secondly, human beings do unnatural things from morning till night, unlike animals- we are the most unnatural species that exist!

Driving cars is unnatural- look in hospitals for car crash victims. Should we ban all cars because some people are not careful drivers?
Perhaps we can learn to drive as safe as we can.

STD's are not just a gay issue- every responsible adult will have to make sure sex is safe. That's where condoms are designed for.

Gay bashings: Christians should protest that gay bashings are a violation of gospel.

Everybody should be able to feel safe in Australia; it is a human right.

holyshadow, "Can you prove that gay couples have a passing parade of sexual partners?" - not very authorative but I recall seeing the outcomes of some research on this a couple of months ago.

The claim was that gay men on average have about the same interest in a variety of partners as straight men but because their potential partners share that same level of interest they on average do have more partners than straight men.

I guess that means that like the heterosexual community they have to make choices about fidelity to existing partners, loyalty etc.

Like the heterosexual community some will be faithful to their partner, others will have a partners blessing for exploration and others will cheat.

In other words, move along folks, nothing to see here.

R0bert

Celivia,

“Perhaps the non-existing lesbians are hiding behind the non-existing dinosaurs :+)”

Of course dinosaurs existed! You can find out all about them through this web site. I’ve chosen the page about how they must have been loaded on to Noah’s Ark, but you can navigate back and forth to find out all sorts of exciting “facts” that will be news to any paleontologist (or to any eight year old of at least average intelligence). I’m sure Emperor Nasi Goreng is in there somewhere. I love this site. Hours of instructive fun.

http://christiananswers.net/dinosaurs/j-ark1.html

Actually, I would love this site if it were just fun, but these guys are deadly serious: they are actually trying to teach this crud as scientific and historical fact to children. This is, in my mind, a form of child abuse.

I realize this is off the topic, but it’s important to understand the intellectual level some religiously brainwashed people operate on. Not all Christians, by any means, but some of the most vocal have been profoundly educationally damaged as kids or vulnerable young adults. Hence the perverse resistance to just about anything approaching reason and objective fact.

In my experience, trying to argue with such people is like trying to talk a schizophrenic out of his delusions. Even if it were possible, you wonder whether you might in fact be doing more damage by demolishing a firmly entrenched psychological defence system.

Still, I worry about the kids who are being intellectually abused in this way.

GAY MARRAIGE ....never.

Child abuse is when a child learns that babies are formed from a female egg and male sperm, but they have 2 daddies ! (Or mummies)

The result of such abuse may not show up initially, but show up it will.

If a person feels they are homosexual, ok.. be that if you must, but don't seek to re-shape society along those lines. Don't teach children that male male or female female sex is normal, because it just plain is not.

I don't see why society should regard adult consenting Human/Animal sexual relations as 'normal' just because a significant number of humans participate in this behavior.
Its not normal nor will it ever be so.
The ONLY kind of sexual behavior which can ever be described as 'normal' is heterosexual. The word 'normal' arises out of the natural male female cyle of nature.

If a person is born with a penis and a vagina, he has a medical problem and no one would describe this as 'normal'. The poor soul just has to make some tough decisions in conference with medical professionals to get the best outcome.

I really get weary of people asking 'What is normal' when it is as plain as the nose on your face.

CONCLUSION ... Gay marraige ? no and never.

BD, unnatural - I'm fairly sure that you are not the one to be deciding what is natural and what is not http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=109#2085

"Its as plain as dogs balls on a grasshopper that a man over 50 with existing wives and who marries again to a 9 or 15 or 18 yrs old, is going to be more sexually interested in HER than in the 'old wrinklies'"

I think that most of us would find the idea of a 9 year old girl being considered more sexually appealing than a woman carrying some life experience rather unnatural (and sickening).

If gays wish to involve themselves in the failing tradition called marriage then let them. I tend to think it's time for a major rethink on societies role in that issue both to give consenting adults more options and to strengthen the value of committments made.

R0bert

I have known of children growing up in gay marriages for years and they show no signs of being morally or psychologically or physically damaged.

I know many children who grow up in single parent families and the same applies to them.

I do however know of many children who are psychologically and physically damaged from growing up with a mum and a dad.

My point is that children need a loving and caring family around them -no matter who they are and what their sexuality.

But hey you guys, don’t let this simple declaration get in the way of your testosterone fuelled poofter bashing session here. I’ll sit quietly over here in the corner and watch the competition unfold. What’s the prize?

Ranier,

Well said, a lot of pple not interested in evidence based stats on this whole issue.

When ignorance and fear prevail, a bit of 'gaybashing' will always surface and so predictably so as to be monotonous.

I too have known single parent families who do a great job and 2 parent 'normal' families that are disatrous by comparison.

There are norms in our society, but even within the paremeters of these norms, there are also variables.

What is normal for one is not neccessarily perceived as normal by the next person.

The church won't allow it because they are stuck in the past. They are unable to move with the times on many issues. The government won't accept gay marriage because our leaders have linked themselves to the same stupid and out-dated ideas.

TEam.. Ranier and others.

An anecdote which shows something 'worked' in a narrow sense with limited terms of reference is no evidence for the essential acceptability of something.
Im sure that some Israelites worshipping the Baals and Astheroths (Fertility gods) had reasonably well adjusted children, but that did not change the fact of the male and female cult prostitutes in the temple, not the overal impact of these directions on the whole social fabric of the nation.
Take it or leave it.... accept it or reject it.. its a choice, but when Israel went after the false fertility gods the whole society went down the toilet and they were deservingly judged for it.

You may see no connection with our social condition, but those with a broader view of things they may see it differently.

Discussions about 'normality' must have a reference point. This can be either the natural world or science or religious conviction. They don't always see eye to eye. Welcome to democracy.

Some people see Islamic Jihad as 'freedom fighters' ...others see them as Terrorists... we have to call it as we see it.

Snout,
Thanks for that dinosaur site.
My own extinction theory is that Noah must have loaded his ark with homosexual dinosaurs.

Homophobes in this discussion have not make sense, so far.

Abnormal?
Perhaps it’s perfectly normal to that there is a certain percentage of people homosexual. Who decides that that is abnormal? Diversity and abnormality are two different concepts.

Natural? (For the last time)
Homosexuality occurs naturally.
I just explained why ‘naturalness’ arguments do not make sense. Is it natural to sit behind your computer to write posts? Is it natural to brush your teeth, drive your car? RObert explains it well, too. So the naturalness argument is illogical, you surely must agree.

Civil?
I wouldn’t call it civil that homosexual people are being discriminated against and simply feel unsafe in their own country. Safety is a human right.

Dictating?
Asking for acceptance is hardly dictating. Homosexual people who just want a place in society like everyone else have the right to claim that place.

Procreation?
Heterosexual, married couples do not always produce offspring! Some focus on career or other aspects of their lives. Older couples marry too, without intention to have kids.

Homosexuality prohibited by God.
There’s a list of things that the bible claims are prohibited by God but are being ignored by Christians- the homophobes just pick and choose what suits them.
The Bible as well as the Koran are full of violence, destruction, slavery and discrimination. Who says that these books contain God’s word anyway (if there is a God) - those holy books were just written by people who heard voices.

Playing the victim?
Have a look in hospitals and perhaps you’ll find some gays who have been bashed by homophobes.

Boaz,

Welcome to the discussion.

You said:

"An anecdote which shows something 'worked' in a narrow sense with limited terms of reference is no evidence for the essential acceptability of something."

Yaaaaay!! Please, please, please, hold that thought. It is an essential foundation for any further discussion.

However, I disagree strongly with your comment

"I really get weary of people asking 'What is normal' when it is as plain as the nose on your face."

"Normal" is a word used in multiple different senses today, including mathematical averages, medians and modes (which are different concepts), in health related senses, and self referentially in discussions of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The original meaning of the word, I understand, was "perpendicular" - which in the case of the nose on my face is quite accurate.

The point is that any discussion of "normal" can't avoid parsing the different meanings people give to the word.

Boaz,

I have to agree with Robert re your statement that a 9 yr old girl is more sexually interesting to men rather than a mature ('wrinky'..)
woman.

I cant see how a statement such as that would not place you in good standing on a subject so based on sexual preferences such as this one is.

As does Robert, I too find the tradition of marriage somewhat of a non event, but if gay pple want this recognition..there is absolutely no reason why they should be denied the right given to every other Australian..

The homophobes place gay pple in the position that they find themselves fearing vigilante gangs, and for anyone who doubts that gay pple are bashed on our streets a quick dose of reality can never come too soon.

As Celivia suggested a visit to almost any hospital would soon set that query to rest.

Holyshadow

Now the thread has quietened down a bit, could I talk about what you said in your second post? It’s always dangerous to make assumptions about what makes people tick based on a few lines on an opinion thread, but my guess is that the motivation behind you starting this discussion comes from the “dilemma” you feel about your brother. My guess is that your experience of loving your brother has forced you on a journey of confronting a set of beliefs and assumptions that you were brought up with. This is often painful and difficult, but is something that all authentic adults need to do.

It seems from what you say that out of all of your family, including your brother, you have been the most successful in facing that challenge. Your brother’s situation sounds a particularly sad one: while I don’t doubt reality of homophobia in society as a phenomenon, my guess is that your brother is struggling to accept himself as much as struggling with others’ acceptance of him (but perhaps I’m being presumptuous here).

As you might have gathered from reading some of the posts on this thread, the topic of homosexuality can bring out some pretty violent and not terribly rational reactions in some people, particularly men. Gays tend to be the last minority target (with the possible exception of mulsims) where this kind of illogical reaction, and casual vitriol) is still considered okay in some circles.

I have long puzzled over the reasons for this kind of reaction. When I’ve tried to discuss it with people who express strong anti-gay beliefs the argument usually devolves into circular arguments about what is “natural” or “normal” or “ordained by God” (the latter founded on the assertion that “I know what God thinks better than you do”). Often, fears are expressed about the effect on children of a more open and accepting attitude to diversity of sexual orientation.

Continued below:

Some people find it difficult to separate their own personal tastes in sexual attractions and practices from what ought to be a universal and compulsory norm. Rigid religious beliefs sometimes play a part, but I wonder which way round it goes: do people have rigid beliefs because of a psychological need or does the psychology derive from the belief system?

Others take a “moral” view, but have a fundamental difficulty understanding that the morality of a sexual act or relationship derives from whether the interpersonal context is abusive rather than from which mechanical conjunction of body parts is occurring (or whether formal permission has been given by others outside the relationship). Sexuality is a potent experience; it touches, however obscurely, with our deepest desires and our darkest fears - and can easily slip from love to abuse: my guess is that some people feel the need to put very tight boundaries around their own behavior and desires, and feel threatened when others choose other - but equally valid and loving - ways of drawing those lines.

My guess is that in some people a homophobic mindset serves an important function in maintaining their psychic balance. A classical theory is that homophobia is the product of internal psychic conflicts (whether conscious or not) about ones own sexual orientation or about the strength of ones gender identity: that homophobes lash out because of anxiety about their own homoerotic feelings as a way of disavowing them. There was a classic experiment in 1996 that suggests this is not as far fetched as some would imagine. http://web.archive.org/web/20040202035152/www.apa.org/releases/homophob.html
I think this is somewhat simplistic, although my own experience (I worked as a GP mainly in sexual health for seven years) is that tolerance of other people’s differing sexual tastes or lifestyles correlates highly with being comfortable in your own sexual skin.

Continued below:

Homophobia can also have what Herek calls “value-expressive” or “socially expressive” functions, by which the sufferer affirms the values that underly his self concept, or by which he seeks approval from his surrounding social group (including family and religious groups). If you’re interested (and it might assist in understanding the dynamics of your, and your brother’s, dilemmas) you might want to check out this web site: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/prej_func.html

I hope you haven’t found what I’ve written presumptuous, but my guess is that homophobia in different forms is something you have had to come up against, even though (and I’m assuming here) you’re not gay yourself. Your own experience tells you that it is not, as some posters have suggested, benign or non existent. Understanding it won’t make it go away, but it can make it easier to deal with, and less distressing for you when it rears its ugly head.

Best of luck to you, your brother, and all your family

Holyshadow,

I said that there is no point in dragging in what MEN AND WOMEN- people of the opposite sex – do in the bedroom when discussing unnatural sex. Something you are doing is affecting your eyesight. Natural, normal sex has nothing to do with perverted, unnatural sex. And, your new, added suggestion that I might have “problems” indicates that you still think that trying to make people you disagree with look ignorant or bent makes them wrong and you right.

You might believe that I am “not speaking from a fair and balanced perspective”. I believe that you do not have a homosexual brother. We are talking about you, are we not? I have 3 brothers. They do not need anyone speak for them.

You haven’t answered my question on the origins of your “brother’s” homosexuality, either. It is ‘here of there’ if there is any excuse for sexual perversion at all! If there is not, you are admitting that people choose to be homosexual. You have already lamented that nobody would wish to be ‘like that’. You are sending very confusing messages.

Obviously, I doesn’t matter to me what you do. But, if you voluntarily broach a subject, you cannot expect everyone to agree with you – even on left-loaded OLO – and you really should be able to do better than just saying your detractors are wrong. You are either a homosexual yourself or, as you claim, have a homosexual brother. You think the whole shebang is OK. Therefore, you have to say why. Otherwise, there is no point in bringing it up. You should go back to the quiet life, doing as you please.

Well Leigh accusing Holyshadow of being homosexual is the time honoured tactic of bullies to sweep away all opposition.

What is unnatural sex? Don't some american states have statutes on their law books that say if it's not missionary position it's wrong? Do you still make love to your partner the same way as you did when you were first married? I bet you vary it!

Holyshadow I join with Snout in offering my best wishes to you and your family.

Billy, thank you sincerely for your kind words.

And Leigh of course you are entitled to your opinion.I wish you well.

Snout when I have more time I will endeavour to give you a more complete answer to your post.

thanks..H.S.

Leigh, you are a freaking idiot so stfu. Seriously. I have no patience for people who want to dictate to others what they can and can't do in their own country. If you want to dictate to others what they can and can't do, GO TO CHINA. You have no right to live in a democratic country when you discriminate against a minority. You are the same type of person who would have opposed women's suffrage and a black people's rights decades ago. You may like to think it affects you, but a gay person getting Married does not affect you IN ANY WAY AT ALL. If you care about the "sanctity" of marriage, you should be looking at making divorce illegal/a criminal offense, because it is frivolous divorce that has degraded the value of marriage. It's sickening to think people like you want to impose your beliefs on others. If you or any others opposed to gay marriage have any dignity or respect for others, you will cease your ignorance and prejudice and desire to enforce your beliefs on others. (I take this back if you already support this, but it sounds like you don't and that is a shame.)

If the homophobic and otherwise bigoted opinions of correspondents like Boaz and Leigh represented anything like 'normality', I think I would be forced into abnormality in order to retain my sanity and self-respect.

Fortunately, however, I'm pretty sure that ideas like theirs occupy the loopy far right of public opinion, so I can continue my current lifestyle with equanimity and tolerance of those like them who are threatened by human difference.

I found those articles very interesting, Snout, thank you.
But I doubt that homophobes read them. As I said, I believe that homophobia and factophobia are somehow connected; unless it’s about facts that support their existing beliefs.

It is true, Steel, that giving homosexual people the same rights, e.g. marriage affects no one.
But I suppose if others such as Leigh and Boaz are content with their own opinion, then there’s no amount of verbal abuse that is going to change their mind.

I can only hope that one day soon, good education in schools and workplaces will prevent homophobia.

Leigh, the argument: ‘homosexuality is unnatural’ is not a strong one after all that has been said about naturalness.

If homosexuality occurs in nature, then it is a natural thing.
There are homosexual animals, too. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6066606.stm

Even IF homosexuality was unnatural, may I repeat that people are the most unnatural species on earth? You certainly have to agree that many things people do are ‘unnatural’- all of which homophobes don’t seem to worry about.

If the homophobes would come up with a reasonable argument that a) people act naturally all day long and b)homosexuality is unnatural and does not occur in nature, then feel free to present those facts. Otherwise, using the ‘homosexuality is unnatural’ argument is useless and ignorant.

I laughed after reading one of Snout's links- when Leigh accused Holyshadow of being homosexual.

It seems, holyshadow, that it is much more likely that homophobes (and not non-homophobes) have secret homosexual desires (and don’t know what to do about it).
The ones that protest the loudest…. (Oh, funny!)

Perhaps homosexual people should try to organise a homomonument which can be a place to meet, to spread information, to give support. There’s one in Amsterdam and tourists love it.

A homomonument such as this one will remind people constantly that homosexual people need consideration and have rights.
http://www.pinkpoint.org/ (fun to browse here and look for the Delft gay souvenirs- cute!)
http://members.chello.nl/mennevellinga/homomonument.html

The Australian also recently carried an interesting article on research showing that homosexuality is common in the animal kingdom:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20775612-28737,00.html

Those who think homosexuality is not “natural” perhaps need to think about how they define “natural”.

It’s a great an offence to the dignity and equality due to all Australians that the government refuses to accord gay relationships the same legal protections and recognition as straight ones. Of course the government should recognise Gay marriage.

The churches, however, should be free to make up their own minds on which unions they choose to bless. I think they ought to marry gays, and I’d support gay marriage in my own church. Similarly, I also think Churches ought to marry divorcees, while recognising their right in conscience to refuse to do so.

The churches have the right to speak for themselves, they don’t necessarily speak for God. The God of love, compassion and radical inclusiveness loves his gay children with exactly the same gracious intensity that he loves the rest of us, and my guess is He’s heartily sick of his so-called representatives in the religions hierarchy debarring gays for being as He made them. Christians are supposed to be on the side of the marginalised, despised and disposed. In this debate too many of us are the marginalisers, despisers and dispossessors. It makes me ashamed, and God knows how it makes gay Christians feel.

No worries, Celivia.

Incidentally, although although Herek is writing specifically about homophobia, the approach he outlines (experiential functions and symbolic functions) is a very useful way of understanding a whole range of prejudices including racism and religious and ethnic bigotry.

I reckon he has hit on something very important here, so I'm going to post the link again in case anyone missed it!

http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/prej_func.html

Rhian, the issue of church attitudes raises a mixed bag of issues.
I agree churches should be able to operate internally to follow their beliefs (subject to the constraint that only ones being impacted are consenting adults).

I don't believe that the churches should get special breaks in other areas - rates, taxes etc, use of government funds to promote their views to the public (education funding being used to fund bible teaching, family planning councelling which does not include all legal options etc).

At the moment many seem to have it both ways, sponging off rate and taxpayers but insist on autonomy when it suits.

I also think that the use of threats needs to stop - a stance against gays backed up with threats of eternal torment is a nasty double up.

There are some issues around religious freedom which we have to come to grips with yet and which touch on issues like gay marriage.

I'm still pondering how to get a debate going on that topic without it becoming yet another bash the church/bash the godless battle.

R0bert

Essentially, the current government is the real problem here. You can't change the mind of a stubborn politician who wields too much power and is opposing change for the sake of it. If he really cared about the values of equality that democracies are founded upon, he wouldn't enforce his prejudices on the Australian people. I think John Howard would fail the immigration test.

Thanks, Rhian, you sound like another sensible Christian.

Steel, I agree about the government being a problem. Don't forget they are funded by groups like the homophobic sect Exclusive Brethren (of course, funded only IF these religious groups agree with the govt's policies; I doubt they will fund the Greens :)) One might wonder how much the govt has been influenced by this sect (and Hillsong too, I think).
I don't even want to think about it!

Good idea, RObert to start a debate on the Church topic.
I feel that I still have much to learn about the topic.
I can imagine that I would experience or develop some mixed feelings about the topic.

However, I do think that some bashing is to be expected as some people feel very strongly about their religion and get their emotions out. But it’s good to get all ideas out in the open to look at.

I do agree, at the moment, with your view on taxes and funding, and I also believe in freedom of religion for people who need religion in their lives- or at least think they do.
I also wonder when a sect becomes a recognised religion. (This is good to discuss in your new thread, too, whenever you're ready).

Because we’re talking about homosexuality here, I’ll use the example of anti-gay sects like (my favourite sect to discuss): the Exclusive Brethren (EB).
This sect does get all the tax cuts and their EB schools are being funded by our taxes!
EB education turns the students into homophobes, lie to them, withhold information (as in NO sex ed and censored science), deny them tertiary education and access to media and computers.
And the educational department is happy for them to do all this to Australian kids!
I find this a type of child abuse.

If this is 'really' classed as child abuse, then the Australian government is supporing child abuse places with OUR taxmoney.

We are funding EB schools allowing teachers to lie to children and to turn them, deliberately, into homophobes.

Snout,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to to you..First of all , no I am not gay..this is, as I stated ,my brother, I have no reason to say otherwise..sorry Leigh.

You say that his case is a particularly 'sad one ' and you are right.

I cannot tell you how it hurts me to see the torture he goes thru and has done all his life since first realising his sexuality at age 16.

He was molested as a child , I witnessed this.It was an adult male member of the family.
Whilst I was not privvy to anything graphic, I was 14, saw what was definitely about to be a sexual assault take place. this was not the first time he has since told me..he was 8 yrs old at that time.

He left home at age 16 and went to the city, Sydney, he believed gay pple were more readily accepted by there and we never saw him again until he was 32. He dropped off the face of the earth..only surfacing briefly twice in that time when my younger sister went to Sydney.

He took up male prostitution at 16, servicing homosexuals at Kings Cross, did drugs for a while.He lived with an older gay man for quite a few yrs, this man had an uncanny resembalence to our father. Our father never accepted my brother, my brother told me he knew early on that his son may be gay.

We only suspected in his late teens as we never saw him date girls.

I beleive that my brother, because he was systematically molested at such a young age, became confused about his sexual orietation...it is said thyat victims think because they feel pleasurable sensations, think that it must be so, that if they like it, they must be gay, and that it must be their fault, that they did someting to invite it. Something that is bad is not supposed to feel good is it?, so this is where the confusion and guilt comes in I guess.

Contd....

Robert, I agree with some of your points. Churches shouldn’t get tax breaks fore being churches, though when they engage in charitable activity they should get the same tax breaks as other charities. Equally, I believe those same charities should get no tax breaks for their lobbying/ ideological activities any more than churches or other lobby groups.

I support kids getting religious education, so long as it’s not indoctrination into the ‘truths” of a single sect. At school I was taught in RE about the different Christian denominations, other faiths, and the “secular religions” such as Marxism. Today I guess we could add environmentalism to that category. Religion is an important part of our society, culture and history, and we’ll do our children a great disservice if they don’t learn about it.

I’d agree that people seeking family counselling should be informed of the range of options available to them and of the ideological predisposition of those doing the counselling, but I wouldn’t debar “pro lifers” in principle from giving counselling, even though I don’t share their views.

I also agree that a stance against gays backed up with threats of eternal torment is a nasty double up. But I also recognise the sincerity of those who believe that gays are destined for hell unless they change. If you really thought that being an active gay was a passport to hell then you’d sincerely try to discourage people from being gay, believing it was in their interests. The inquisition, remember, thought it was compassionate to burn people’s bodies if it was the only way to save their souls.

What’s needed is re-education of the persecutors. People didn’t stop burning witches because they came to feel witchcraft was ok, they stopped when they realised their victims weren’t actually witches at all. Fundamentalists will never stop admonishing sinners, but maybe they can be brought around to the view that gays are just part of God’s rich and diverse creation, with the same right to be welcomed in church as anyone else.

contd..

So I guess when I launched this thread it was from the perspective of my brothers experience.

He went on to go into his adult life and form one relatiionship in particular and they realised that they wanted to formalise theyre union the same as any couple intending to spend their lives together would .It was there I realised the huge obstacles that face gay couples in society.

My brothers partner died and he was left alone and now he lives the itinerant life I first mentioned in the beginning.He puts down no roots, lives as a homeless man and befriends street pple, the only pple he trusts.

I feel so frustrated when I hear pple villify and judge those of whom they have no comprehension.

The Church does not recognise marriage between gay couples, the government refuses to listen, so where do these pple find a voice in society?

Thery are gods pple...they are your brother, your father , your friend...your sister even.They exist in every family wether we know of theyre existence or not and they have a right to live as free citizens.

Holyshadow,

I think on threads like this we sometimes forget the profound and often painful experiences that lead people to take the views they do. This often gets lost in all the shouting. Thank you for sharing your and your brother’s stories.

I don’t know your brother, and so it would be wrong if not downright presuming of me to make specific comments about his experiences, but I’d like to comment on what you just wrote.

I don’t believe that sexual abuse “causes” homosexuality, or that it can affect ones essential sexual orientation. What it does do is leave some people feeling violated, confused and guilty, and in the case of children can profoundly disrupt the normal process of developing sexual boundaries and a sense of sexual identity.

When I look at my own sexuality I am aware of an unmistakable continuity between the erotic feelings I experience now and the feelings I remember at 5 years old. Of course they don’t take the same form now as they did at 5, or 15, or even 25, but my sexual orientation has been with me for as long as I can remember. It seems inconceivable to me that any experience, even sexual abuse, could change that essential polarity, I’m sure it could change the ways in which I might express it. When I talk to other gay people as friends or as patients many say something similar. I suspect the same is true for many heterosexuals as well, but perhaps they don’t think about where their sexuality comes from as much. It is interesting that your father apparently picked up early about your brother’s sexuality: fathers often do, although they often try to block out any conscious recognition of what they know deep down.

Continued below:

While sexual abuse doesn’t cause a homosexual orientation, I have no doubt that gay and pre-gay boys are far more likely to experience sexual abuse than other boys. The reason for this is that sexual abusers, who are mostly male, tend to choose vulnerable targets, and a child trying to make sense of his early homoerotic feelings is extremely vulnerable, particularly if he senses a deep mismatch between his emerging feelings and what are the norms of the family and society he’s growing up in. To such a child, sexual abuse can feel like a type of validation of his sexuality and can superficially feel like a kind of love. For older boys in the “sex industry” this validation actually takes on a tangible monetary value. Paedophiles understand this dynamic extremely well (sometimes learning it from their own childhood experience), and exploit it to the hilt in the process of grooming victims.

For gay kids, sexual abuse can be particularly devastating to sexual development, because in a homophobic society where there are few visible models of healthy sexual development for gays, an abusive relationship can seem like the best there is on offer. A society that tells kids that their most profound feelings are sick or sinful and that they have no chance of happiness unless they undergo an impossible transformation loses moral credibility when a child or young person is trying to sort out his own boundaries and values. My own experience is that I had to go back to first principles in sorting out my own values and beliefs: what is genuinely abusive in sexual behavior, and what is not?

Continued below

As for the question of gay “marriage”, my partner and I are divided on that, in part from our different experiences of each of our parents’ marriages. I wonder if given the historical meanings attached to traditional marriage it’s a model that can work for many same sex couples. But I can certainly see the value of some kind of formal recognition of gay relationships, if only to give a lot of lonely and isolated gay kids a sense that there is a place for them in society.

Snout,

Thank you for your posts ..

I tend to stand by my assertion that childhood molestation does influence sexual orientation in a small..but that is only my opinion I guess.

I hope that you and your patner find a workeable option for your dliemma regarding your civil marriage..maybe thats not quite correct, if so, I stand corrected..

Snout I do not want to sound rude ...but I will put in another post today and answer you more comprehensively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Same-sex_marriage

snout and holyshadow - thanks to both of you for sharing the stuff that has been shared recently. It is touching and important stuff.

snout the point about abusers targetting kids who are already vunerable is a particularly important one which I'd not considered in that context before.

R0bert

Snout, you’re bloody amazing.

I tend to dip in and out of OLO, but for some months now your measured and thoughtful contributions have been one of the main things that bring me back. I sincerely admire the way you are able to engage the bigots around here, and gently challenge their views, and I regularly find myself wishing for some of your cool-headed persistence.

On the same-sex marriage question, Alastair Nicholson’s OLO piece http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=4541 and Tim Dick’s article in the Sydney Morning Herald last January http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/marriage-same-sex-same-difference/2006/01/13/1137118970554.html
together amount to the best answer I’ve ever seen.

If you’re looking for a hefty read, you might try John Boswell’s “Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality” http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Social-Tolerance-Homosexuality-Fourteenth/dp/0226067114 His discussion of the unique features of anti-gay intolerance sheds some light on your view of homosexuals as the last minority target http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=267#4898 Specifically, the fact that gays are a dispersed minority, and that the difference typically doesn’t become apparent until adulthood means that where intolerance exists, historically it has been extremely difficult to mount any resistance.

Snout,
wonderfully sensitive and interesting posts, thanks. I second the praise ‘w’ gives you.
“I wonder if given the historical meanings attached to traditional marriage it’s a model that can work for many same sex couples.”
I believe it can work- traditions can and do change, although usually not radically Then a new history can develop. Look, for example, at the traditional role models- since the late fifties a lot has changed for women.
Same sex marriage already does work in some countries.
However, I do believe, as I’ve said somewhere in a previous post, that the whole concept of ‘marriage’, including the definition, is due for an update.

Holyshadow,
How did you come to the conclusion that childhood molestation influences sexual orientation?
As far as I know, religious conservatives claim that homosexuality is caused by the environment, such as child (sexual) abuse or bad parenting, without scientific proof. This allows them to shift ‘the blame’ from God to the abuser, or to the parents.

I agree with Snout that homosexuality is a natural sexual orientation.
The view that indicates that homosexuality is caused by genetics is based on scientific research which I find more reliable than the grounds of conservative religious beliefs.

I find the conservative religious view quite dangerous and oppose it because saying that homosexuality is influenced or caused by the environment is like saying that there’s something wrong with homosexuality; that it is evil, abnormal, a disorder and therefore should be cured.

Even the conservative religious need to start looking at science and realise that homosexual people do not need or want ‘cures’ to become ‘normal’- their sexual orientation is perfectly acceptable, normal and natural already.
There has been too much messing around with gays to find them the ‘right’ kind of therapy- from exorcism of evil demons, to modern therapy and (hormone) injections.

It’s the homophobes, not the homosexuals who could do with some therapy.

W,
thanks for all those links; I will definitely visit them soon when I have more time to read over the weekend.

Celivia, "How did you come to the conclusion that childhood molestation influences sexual orientation?"

I've wondered about that issue in regard to the impact on perceptions of orientation.

I suspect that the trauma of abuse might be sufficient to leave a victim very confused about a whole lot of aspects of their own sexuality. I'd say the same for kids raised by biggots who spend their whole childhood hearing that gays are an abomination (I guess that the reverse could apply but I've not come across many gays calling for an end to hetero's).

In either case it seems possible that victims could spend much of their lives desperately trying to live an orientation that does not fit them. The underlying orientation may not have changed but a persons beliefs about themselves might have. That has got to lead to chaos.

R0bert

Robert,

Thank you very much for that ...That is exactly my point and it is how it reads if you care to take another look.
Our childhood experiences shape us , for better or for worse..we all accept that I think, why would this be any different.

Celivia, as my brother is gay and I spent my whole life with him, I think I have some credibilty here as opposed to someone who hasnt had my experience and grew up to teenagehood and was very close to that sibling.

I would be not too far wrong in saying that it is not proven perse with any high degree of proof that homosexuality has its basis in genetics..thats not to say it doesnt though,I would say that both are true, it can be a genetic orientation and it can be a preference,.Either way the person is gay.

All kinds of exteranl and internal pressures come into play when dealing with personal and emotional issues..

How do we account for bi-sexuals for examples?

Sexual preferences within individuals is based on many intangibles, we cannot set any one cause in stone..therefore if we feel we are homosexual then therefore we are.

Celivia,

A minor point..sexual molestation is 'child sexual abuse' and the blame most certainly can be shifted to the abuser if that abuse confused the sexual maturation of a small impressionable and vulnerable child.

I believe homosexuality has its basis in genetics and in learned behaviuors which then become inextricably linked to the childs psyche and patterns of behaviour for life.Sometimes the are no defined answers to help explain the why of things...this may not help those looking for a way to 'excuse' homosexuality..

For if they choose it, that may not be acceptable, but if they were born that way, well thats ok.

Im not sure of your point there I guess.

holyshadow "can be a genetic orientation and it can be a preference,". I've not followed the science closely enough to be confident either way on that.

The bit that really concerns me are those who do have a definite orientation but are forced into an external orientation that does not fit.

I suspect that most of the time that is gays feeling they have to be straight. I can also see the possibility that a victim of abuse may adopt a particular orientation as a coping mechanism but can't back up that with facts, just something I've wondered about. I suspect that could be a very troubling way to live both for the person and those close to them (especially spousal partners).

R0bert

Holyshadow and RObert,
I think that I should make my point clearer.
The difference between holyshadow’s and my opinion is very subtle. I hope I’ll be able to clarify what I meant.

What I believe is that in cases of homosexuality there are always genetics underlying that homosexuality.
I don’t actually deny that environment can have an influence- (so here I agree with holyshadow); I am saying that environment by itself (without the genetics underlying it) cannot ‘cause’ homosexuality.

I am saying that environment can have an effect only when genetics are underlying that homosexuality in the first place.
I guess that is the same thing that Snout tried to explain.

You said that environment can ‘cause’ homosexuality. That’s the only difference between our opinions.

I arrived at my opinion from all the information I have heard and read during my life, plus experiences with homosexual people. What they said about their memories of their childhood matched very much what Snout said about his.

The reason I asked you how you came to the conclusion that homosexuality is caused by the environment, was not to criticise your credibility but out of curiosity.
I have been unable to find any studies, articles or information apart from religious views to confirm that there is any indication that homosexuality is caused by environment.
I thought you might be able to direct me to some information other than experience with your brother.

We all have our experiences and some credibility. However, experiences are always subjective.
So, apart from our own experiences we need to rely on research, facts or other scientific information.

Without facts or research conclusions or strong indications, the statement that homosexuality can be caused by the environment is merely a speculation leaning on a subjective experience.

At the moment, because research strongly indicates it, it is highly probably that homosexuality is caused by genetics (with or without environmental effects).

Whatever the cause may be; as you said, homosexuals should have the same rights as heterosexuals and that is the most important thing we have agreed on:)

w, Celivia and RObert,

Thanks for your kind words and support. Thanks especially for the links about gay marriage. My partner and I have been working on this one for about ten years now: hopefully we’ll get something sorted in the next ten!

holyshadow,

I find it helpful when thinking about sexuality to consider three different layers: sexual identity, sexual behavior and intrinsic sexual orientation. Ideally the three should match up, but in practice it doesn’t always work out that way.

Sexual identity is about more than just the labels we use to attach to sexuality: “gay”, “hetero”, “bisexual”, etc. It has to do with the sense of who we are, and also with our place in society, including in our relationship with our partner. I think it is on this level that sexual abuse is most devastating to a person’s sexuality.

Sexual behavior is pretty self explanatory. It’s the layer that people have the most conscious control over, but is heavily influenced by both identity and orientation.

Continued below:

Sexual behavior is pretty self explanatory. It’s the layer that people have the most conscious control over, but is heavily influenced by both identity and orientation.

Orientation is the deepest layer. Lots of people have wondered what causes a homosexual orientation rather than a heterosexual one. In truth, no one knows exactly what causes homosexuality, but then no one knows what causes heterosexuality either.

The best science suggests a genetic role, but this is not definitive. Twin studies have shown that if one identical twin is gay there’s a 50% chance the other is too, while if they’re non identical twins the chances are 25% (roughly). This kind of crunching of the numbers is typical of a whole range of traits where there is a strong, but not total, genetic influence.

There are also psychoanalytically based theories which focus on the early relationship between the child and his parents. While these are interesting, they lack the support of empirical studies, and in truth I’ve never noticed any difference between the parents of gay kids and those of heterosexual kids. Most parents of gay kids also have hetero kids, anyway.

In thinking about the role of sexual abuse, it’s worth remembering that most gay people were never sexually abused as kids, and most kids who are sexually abused don’t turn out as gay (although gay kids are over-represented among the victims for the reasons I’ve outlined above).

Hope this is useful. Cheers!

snout, thanks and well put. The discussion has been very educational and thought provoking for me so far.

It's nice to have a discussion where ideas seem to be able to be worked through with little of the battleground atmosphere that marks so many threads.

R0bert

Celivia,

Thank you for your post..

I never meant that enviroment can cause homosexuality..I meant enviroment can perhaps predispose us to 'choose' homosexuality.

Wether we choose or not whether we believe our cause is thru gentics, either way..we re homosexual.

I think both states are valid.

Thanks for your input everyone, its been a pleasure talking with you all.

Snout your veiws have been food for thought certainly..thank you for your candor.

Robert,

Thank you also for your input I didnt want to close without including you in my post.

I will check back from time to time..