Essentially, the current government is the real problem here. You can't change the mind of a stubborn politician who wields too much power and is opposing change for the sake of it. If he really cared about the values of equality that democracies are founded upon, he wouldn't enforce his prejudices on the Australian people. I think John Howard would fail the immigration test.

Thanks, Rhian, you sound like another sensible Christian.

Steel, I agree about the government being a problem. Don't forget they are funded by groups like the homophobic sect Exclusive Brethren (of course, funded only IF these religious groups agree with the govt's policies; I doubt they will fund the Greens :)) One might wonder how much the govt has been influenced by this sect (and Hillsong too, I think).
I don't even want to think about it!

Good idea, RObert to start a debate on the Church topic.
I feel that I still have much to learn about the topic.
I can imagine that I would experience or develop some mixed feelings about the topic.

However, I do think that some bashing is to be expected as some people feel very strongly about their religion and get their emotions out. But it’s good to get all ideas out in the open to look at.

I do agree, at the moment, with your view on taxes and funding, and I also believe in freedom of religion for people who need religion in their lives- or at least think they do.
I also wonder when a sect becomes a recognised religion. (This is good to discuss in your new thread, too, whenever you're ready).

Because we’re talking about homosexuality here, I’ll use the example of anti-gay sects like (my favourite sect to discuss): the Exclusive Brethren (EB).
This sect does get all the tax cuts and their EB schools are being funded by our taxes!
EB education turns the students into homophobes, lie to them, withhold information (as in NO sex ed and censored science), deny them tertiary education and access to media and computers.
And the educational department is happy for them to do all this to Australian kids!
I find this a type of child abuse.

If this is 'really' classed as child abuse, then the Australian government is supporing child abuse places with OUR taxmoney.

We are funding EB schools allowing teachers to lie to children and to turn them, deliberately, into homophobes.

Snout,

Sorry it has taken so long to get back to to you..First of all , no I am not gay..this is, as I stated ,my brother, I have no reason to say otherwise..sorry Leigh.

You say that his case is a particularly 'sad one ' and you are right.

I cannot tell you how it hurts me to see the torture he goes thru and has done all his life since first realising his sexuality at age 16.

He was molested as a child , I witnessed this.It was an adult male member of the family.
Whilst I was not privvy to anything graphic, I was 14, saw what was definitely about to be a sexual assault take place. this was not the first time he has since told me..he was 8 yrs old at that time.

He left home at age 16 and went to the city, Sydney, he believed gay pple were more readily accepted by there and we never saw him again until he was 32. He dropped off the face of the earth..only surfacing briefly twice in that time when my younger sister went to Sydney.

He took up male prostitution at 16, servicing homosexuals at Kings Cross, did drugs for a while.He lived with an older gay man for quite a few yrs, this man had an uncanny resembalence to our father. Our father never accepted my brother, my brother told me he knew early on that his son may be gay.

We only suspected in his late teens as we never saw him date girls.

I beleive that my brother, because he was systematically molested at such a young age, became confused about his sexual orietation...it is said thyat victims think because they feel pleasurable sensations, think that it must be so, that if they like it, they must be gay, and that it must be their fault, that they did someting to invite it. Something that is bad is not supposed to feel good is it?, so this is where the confusion and guilt comes in I guess.

Contd....

Robert, I agree with some of your points. Churches shouldn’t get tax breaks fore being churches, though when they engage in charitable activity they should get the same tax breaks as other charities. Equally, I believe those same charities should get no tax breaks for their lobbying/ ideological activities any more than churches or other lobby groups.

I support kids getting religious education, so long as it’s not indoctrination into the ‘truths” of a single sect. At school I was taught in RE about the different Christian denominations, other faiths, and the “secular religions” such as Marxism. Today I guess we could add environmentalism to that category. Religion is an important part of our society, culture and history, and we’ll do our children a great disservice if they don’t learn about it.

I’d agree that people seeking family counselling should be informed of the range of options available to them and of the ideological predisposition of those doing the counselling, but I wouldn’t debar “pro lifers” in principle from giving counselling, even though I don’t share their views.

I also agree that a stance against gays backed up with threats of eternal torment is a nasty double up. But I also recognise the sincerity of those who believe that gays are destined for hell unless they change. If you really thought that being an active gay was a passport to hell then you’d sincerely try to discourage people from being gay, believing it was in their interests. The inquisition, remember, thought it was compassionate to burn people’s bodies if it was the only way to save their souls.

What’s needed is re-education of the persecutors. People didn’t stop burning witches because they came to feel witchcraft was ok, they stopped when they realised their victims weren’t actually witches at all. Fundamentalists will never stop admonishing sinners, but maybe they can be brought around to the view that gays are just part of God’s rich and diverse creation, with the same right to be welcomed in church as anyone else.

contd..

So I guess when I launched this thread it was from the perspective of my brothers experience.

He went on to go into his adult life and form one relatiionship in particular and they realised that they wanted to formalise theyre union the same as any couple intending to spend their lives together would .It was there I realised the huge obstacles that face gay couples in society.

My brothers partner died and he was left alone and now he lives the itinerant life I first mentioned in the beginning.He puts down no roots, lives as a homeless man and befriends street pple, the only pple he trusts.

I feel so frustrated when I hear pple villify and judge those of whom they have no comprehension.

The Church does not recognise marriage between gay couples, the government refuses to listen, so where do these pple find a voice in society?

Thery are gods pple...they are your brother, your father , your friend...your sister even.They exist in every family wether we know of theyre existence or not and they have a right to live as free citizens.

Holyshadow,

I think on threads like this we sometimes forget the profound and often painful experiences that lead people to take the views they do. This often gets lost in all the shouting. Thank you for sharing your and your brother’s stories.

I don’t know your brother, and so it would be wrong if not downright presuming of me to make specific comments about his experiences, but I’d like to comment on what you just wrote.

I don’t believe that sexual abuse “causes” homosexuality, or that it can affect ones essential sexual orientation. What it does do is leave some people feeling violated, confused and guilty, and in the case of children can profoundly disrupt the normal process of developing sexual boundaries and a sense of sexual identity.

When I look at my own sexuality I am aware of an unmistakable continuity between the erotic feelings I experience now and the feelings I remember at 5 years old. Of course they don’t take the same form now as they did at 5, or 15, or even 25, but my sexual orientation has been with me for as long as I can remember. It seems inconceivable to me that any experience, even sexual abuse, could change that essential polarity, I’m sure it could change the ways in which I might express it. When I talk to other gay people as friends or as patients many say something similar. I suspect the same is true for many heterosexuals as well, but perhaps they don’t think about where their sexuality comes from as much. It is interesting that your father apparently picked up early about your brother’s sexuality: fathers often do, although they often try to block out any conscious recognition of what they know deep down.

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