Ranier,

Well said, a lot of pple not interested in evidence based stats on this whole issue.

When ignorance and fear prevail, a bit of 'gaybashing' will always surface and so predictably so as to be monotonous.

I too have known single parent families who do a great job and 2 parent 'normal' families that are disatrous by comparison.

There are norms in our society, but even within the paremeters of these norms, there are also variables.

What is normal for one is not neccessarily perceived as normal by the next person.

The church won't allow it because they are stuck in the past. They are unable to move with the times on many issues. The government won't accept gay marriage because our leaders have linked themselves to the same stupid and out-dated ideas.

TEam.. Ranier and others.

An anecdote which shows something 'worked' in a narrow sense with limited terms of reference is no evidence for the essential acceptability of something.
Im sure that some Israelites worshipping the Baals and Astheroths (Fertility gods) had reasonably well adjusted children, but that did not change the fact of the male and female cult prostitutes in the temple, not the overal impact of these directions on the whole social fabric of the nation.
Take it or leave it.... accept it or reject it.. its a choice, but when Israel went after the false fertility gods the whole society went down the toilet and they were deservingly judged for it.

You may see no connection with our social condition, but those with a broader view of things they may see it differently.

Discussions about 'normality' must have a reference point. This can be either the natural world or science or religious conviction. They don't always see eye to eye. Welcome to democracy.

Some people see Islamic Jihad as 'freedom fighters' ...others see them as Terrorists... we have to call it as we see it.

Snout,
Thanks for that dinosaur site.
My own extinction theory is that Noah must have loaded his ark with homosexual dinosaurs.

Homophobes in this discussion have not make sense, so far.

Abnormal?
Perhaps it’s perfectly normal to that there is a certain percentage of people homosexual. Who decides that that is abnormal? Diversity and abnormality are two different concepts.

Natural? (For the last time)
Homosexuality occurs naturally.
I just explained why ‘naturalness’ arguments do not make sense. Is it natural to sit behind your computer to write posts? Is it natural to brush your teeth, drive your car? RObert explains it well, too. So the naturalness argument is illogical, you surely must agree.

Civil?
I wouldn’t call it civil that homosexual people are being discriminated against and simply feel unsafe in their own country. Safety is a human right.

Dictating?
Asking for acceptance is hardly dictating. Homosexual people who just want a place in society like everyone else have the right to claim that place.

Procreation?
Heterosexual, married couples do not always produce offspring! Some focus on career or other aspects of their lives. Older couples marry too, without intention to have kids.

Homosexuality prohibited by God.
There’s a list of things that the bible claims are prohibited by God but are being ignored by Christians- the homophobes just pick and choose what suits them.
The Bible as well as the Koran are full of violence, destruction, slavery and discrimination. Who says that these books contain God’s word anyway (if there is a God) - those holy books were just written by people who heard voices.

Playing the victim?
Have a look in hospitals and perhaps you’ll find some gays who have been bashed by homophobes.

Boaz,

Welcome to the discussion.

You said:

"An anecdote which shows something 'worked' in a narrow sense with limited terms of reference is no evidence for the essential acceptability of something."

Yaaaaay!! Please, please, please, hold that thought. It is an essential foundation for any further discussion.

However, I disagree strongly with your comment

"I really get weary of people asking 'What is normal' when it is as plain as the nose on your face."

"Normal" is a word used in multiple different senses today, including mathematical averages, medians and modes (which are different concepts), in health related senses, and self referentially in discussions of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The original meaning of the word, I understand, was "perpendicular" - which in the case of the nose on my face is quite accurate.

The point is that any discussion of "normal" can't avoid parsing the different meanings people give to the word.

Boaz,

I have to agree with Robert re your statement that a 9 yr old girl is more sexually interesting to men rather than a mature ('wrinky'..)
woman.

I cant see how a statement such as that would not place you in good standing on a subject so based on sexual preferences such as this one is.

As does Robert, I too find the tradition of marriage somewhat of a non event, but if gay pple want this recognition..there is absolutely no reason why they should be denied the right given to every other Australian..

The homophobes place gay pple in the position that they find themselves fearing vigilante gangs, and for anyone who doubts that gay pple are bashed on our streets a quick dose of reality can never come too soon.

As Celivia suggested a visit to almost any hospital would soon set that query to rest.